DIY_EFI Digest Monday, 7 October 1996 Volume 01 : Number 303 In this issue: [none] RE: drive-by-wire taxes, was: drive-by-wire Injector Flow Rates For the few Edmontonians out there... Re: Injector Flow Rates RE: Re: Using PC HW RE: drive-by-wire Re[2]: drive-by-wire RE: Re: Using PC HW RE: RE: drive-by-wire RPM approximation-prediction See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tpware@xxx.com (TPW) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 08:25:03 -0600 Subject: [none] Does anyone know about aftermarket MAP sensors for 5.0 Ford FI Speed Density motors? I know all the Mass Air arguments, but it seems the SD motor runs much better than its stock MA counterparts. Possibly the restriction in the stock MA is too great to overcome a non-restricted SD motor? The question is, is there any way to tweak an SD motor? Comments would be appreciated. On a similar note, has anyone attempted to redesign the Ford 5.0 FI intake at home, experimenting/fabricating with different runner configurations, dual throttle bodies, etc? If so, descriptions of your attempts/successes would be appreciated as well. Tony Iomi 94 Splash 5.0 GT-40 ------------------------------ From: Dirk Wright Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 09:41:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: drive-by-wire On Sat, 5 Oct 1996, Daniel Ridge wrote: > > PS: we were talking a while ago about non-circular pistons. Wouldn't > non-circular piston rings be difficult? > yes, very difficult. Honda tried it one of thier racing motorcycle engines. They used oval-shaped pistons. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@xxx.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Dirk Wright Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 09:45:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: taxes, was: drive-by-wire On Sat, 5 Oct 1996, Dave Williams wrote: > The US' various states typically tax by weight instead of displacement. > The range is also typically small - the lightest car is $19/yr where I > live, $26 for the heaviest, though other states might be as much as ten > times more expensive. Here in virginia, personal property taxes are levied based on NADA book value. So, it pays to have an old car, like I do. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@xxx.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: "Orin Harding" Date: Sun, 6 Oct 96 14:45:49 UT Subject: Injector Flow Rates I Don't think my last post mase it to the list so here is the question again.. Does anyone know the flow rate of the following Ford and GM Throttle Body injectors? Ford Part # Old Bosch Part # New Bosch Part # Body Color E43E9F593AA 0 280 150 600 0 280 150 054 BLUE E53E9F593AA 0 280 150 601 0 280 150 056 GREEN E7EE9F593CA 0 280 150 604 0 280 150 057 WHITE GM INJECTOR Part # on injector 5277 Part # on Throttle Body 7400 Thanks ------------------------------ From: Grant Beattie Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 09:08:50 -0600 (MDT) Subject: For the few Edmontonians out there... Slightly off topic, but I thought you might be interested: ***** SUZUKA LIVE AT SCEPPA'S BAR ***** 10923 - 101 St. Edmonton, AB Saturday, October 12 9pm - midnight Enjoy the F1 season finale in the comfort of a fine Edmonton drinking (and eating) establishment surrounded by fellow F1 enthusiasts! Try your hand at Pick-6:Live (with prizes!) and catch all the action including Vic Rauter on the big-screen TV. Door Prizes courtesy of Speed MotorSports. Plenty of free parking. Presented by: * Sceppa's Bar * Speed MotorSports (West Ed Mall) * The Edmonton Kart Racing Association * The Edmonton Formula One Racing Enthusiasts (E-FOR-E) For more info: Bert (Sceppa's): 426-3133 Matt (Speed): 444-0303 Grant (EKRA,EFORE): 454-4136 ------------------------------ From: Frank Mallory Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 13:55:07 -0700 Subject: Re: Injector Flow Rates Orin Harding wrote: > > I Don't think my last post mase it to the list so here is the question again.. > > Does anyone know the flow rate of the following Ford and GM Throttle Body > injectors? > > Ford Part # Old Bosch Part # New Bosch Part # Body Color > E43E9F593AA 0 280 150 600 0 280 150 054 BLUE > E53E9F593AA 0 280 150 601 0 280 150 056 GREEN > E7EE9F593CA 0 280 150 604 0 280 150 057 WHITE > > GM INJECTOR > > Part # on injector 5277 > Part # on Throttle Body 7400 > > Thanks You might find this info in the Bosch Technical Instruction Booklet, or other literature on FI available from Bosch. Call them at 1-800-YES-BOSCH to inquire about it. ------------------------------ From: "Woodd, Michael" Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 09:17:00 +1200 Subject: RE: Re: Using PC HW Flame on full: I've just *begun* using a Philips 8xC552 uController, and the thought of the time and effort and extra hardware in using a PC to control a car makes me want to PUKE!!!!! Not to mention how FECKIN' BIG'N UGLY it would be!!!!! Forget it!!! All this wasted bandwidth is makin me vomit!!! Flame off, nice cool air conditioning on. If you want to DIY a engine computer heres a list of 552 features: 8 10-bit A/D inputs or switch inputs (any combination) obvious uses ;-) 2 variable frequency/duty PWM outputs motor control/ DA output with integrating op-amp 2 8-bit or 1 16-bit timer 1 more 16 bit timer (Timer 2) 1 serial UART 1 I2C bus (100kHz serial bus) port 2 timer controlled toggle outputs (T2) 6 timer controlled set/reset outputs (T2) use for DDIS ignition (or not) and Injectors These have registers to compare to T2, set them and the outputs happen automatically at the correct time 2 external interrupt inputs input(s) from crank sensor(s) for V engines, easier to use two sensors Spare digital outputs for pretty much anything simple Timer resolution is 1/12 of processor clock speed. At 12MHz typical clock, we get 1uS timer resolution. A 16Mhz version exists too for that little extra grunt. All this on one PLCC64 chip! Too easy to make a single layer board for. Buy/get the Philips 80C51 family databook. The 1991 version I have has an application note describing managing an engine in sufficient detail to make it look like a doddle (of course it wouldn't be but it's a better start than you'll get anywhere else I'll wager). If anyone wants I can give the Philips AN number. Development hardware is not hard to find, although I dont know for sure cos I use a homebake system I borrowed from my former employer, including 32k EPROM, 64kRAM, romless 80C552, memory interface buffer etc. Well anyway, I'm now in a good position to seriously look at doing this thing, having just got over the initial hurdle of basic assembly programming, burning EPROMs, setting up a dot matrix LCD display, led outputs etc. Now for the hard stuff... Mike Woodd (wooddm@xxx.nz) Nearly forgot: Air conditioning off. ------------------------------ From: "Hans Hintermaier" Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 00:51:07 +0000 Subject: RE: drive-by-wire > On Sat, 5 Oct 1996, Daniel Ridge wrote: > > > > PS: we were talking a while ago about non-circular pistons. > > Wouldn't non-circular piston rings be difficult? > > yes, very difficult. Honda tried it one of thier racing motorcycle > engines. They used oval-shaped pistons. At last the engine standed nearly one whole race, but oil was empty... They ran like hell, surrounded by a blue cloud. VW built some test diesel engines with elliptic (not oval) shape. Not for putting eight valves in one head as Honda did, but for making a given 4cyl engine not longer with more displacement.Because the elliptic shaped piston has no parallel sides, it worked fine. The rings had pressure constant all around. BMW made (no successful) experiments somewhen in the seventies with octagonal ceramic pistons. I don't know why they used that shape and how they machined the rings. Ceramic was not far enough in those times and the pistons cracked when temperature changed rapidly. Hans hiha@xxx.de Munich / Germany ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.au Date: Mon, 07 Oct 96 08:49:14 Subject: Re[2]: drive-by-wire I tried a mechanical linkage, cable and hydraulic for the clutch in a 5 speed Supra manual bolted to a Chev, and trucs me, the only one that you could use was the hydraulic, unless you have a left leg like an elephant. Even with the hydraulic it took a while to find a master/slave combination that would give a reasonably easy clutch to operate. Dan dzorde@xxx.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: RE: drive-by-wire Author: diy_efi@xxx.edu at INTERNET Date: 10/5/96 4:50 PM > Pet hate.. cable clutches. Pet hate.. hydraulic clutches. What's wrong with a nice, self-adjusting cable clutch? Which would you rather have fail on you while driving through the Heart of Deepest Africa? ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 21:13:45 -0700 Subject: RE: Re: Using PC HW I'll agree 'a car is no place for pc's' It can be done (and is) but why make extra trouble. On the EFI 332 list you could have had the CPU board and debugger for a couple of $$, and all the free software you could use. _But_ more importantly, get the App note. I would like to get a copy of it if you can. It will be interesting to see other peoples ideas on doing EFI. I have a 552' about the biggest problem with them (and all 8051 relatives) is the nasty structure of the processor (My A/C is on, so feel free to fire away). The 68332 is a magnatude better for EFI, _AND_ it has a nice rich instruction set, including the TPU and other nice thing. If you want built in A/D they have a version with that too. But the idea is the same, a PC mudder board will be about the worst thing that you could base a system on. Sandy At 09:17 AM 10/7/96 +1200, you wrote: > >Flame on full: >I've just *begun* using a Philips 8xC552 uController, and the thought >of the time and effort and extra hardware in using a PC to control >a car makes me want to PUKE!!!!! Not to mention how FECKIN' BIG'N >UGLY it would be!!!!! Forget it!!! All this wasted bandwidth is makin >me vomit!!! {snip} ------------------------------ From: Krister Wikstrom Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 09:39:47 +0200 Subject: RE: RE: drive-by-wire - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBB433.7DE67E50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - -> but why do European cars have those small pathetic sub-3 liter - -> engines? AFAIK Europe never had V8 engines in 'normal' cars. Only One reason is also mileage - here in Finland gasoline costs around 5.3 FIM (over $1) per litre, it is heavily taxed. - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBB433.7DE67E50 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IjUHAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAZAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAYwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGRpeV9lZmlAY291bG9t Yi5lbmcub2hpby1zdGF0ZS5lZHUAU01UUABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUu ZWR1AAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAIwAAAGRpeV9lZmlAY291bG9tYi5lbmcu b2hpby1zdGF0ZS5lZHUAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAACUAAAAnZGl5X2VmaUBjb3Vs b21iLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdScAAAAAAgELMAEAAAAoAAAAU01UUDpESVlfRUZJQENPVUxP TUIuRU5HLk9ISU8tU1RBVEUuRURVAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAAC2k0B BIABABYAAABSRTogUkU6IGRyaXZlLWJ5LXdpcmUA6AYBBYADAA4AAADMBwoABwAJACcALwABAEQB ASCAAwAOAAAAzAcKAAcACQAhACQAAQAzAQEJgAEAIQAAADlBQ0ZBOUQwMTIyMEQwMTE5RkZBMDAw MDRCMzIzRkNGAC8HAQOQBgAcAwAAFAAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMALgAAAAAA AwA2AAAAAABAADkAAKn8tiK0uwEeAHAAAQAAABYAAABSRTogUkU6IGRyaXZlLWJ5LXdpcmUAAAAC AXEAAQAAABYAAAABu7QitvHQqc+bIBIR0J/6AABLMj/PAAAeAB4MAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4A HwwBAAAAEQAAAGt3aUBtYW1tYS5pY2wuZmkAAAAAAwAGEFo+CzQDAAcQxwAAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAA AC1CVVRXSFlET0VVUk9QRUFOQ0FSU0hBVkVUSE9TRVNNQUxMUEFUSEVUSUNTVUItM0xJVEVSLUVO R0lORVM/QUZBSUtFVVJPUEVORVZFUkhBRFY4RU5HSU5FU0lOTk9STUFMQ0EAAAAAAgEJEAEAAACU AQAAkAEAAH0CAABMWkZ1muZsif8ACgEPAhUCpAPkBesCgwBQEwNUAgBjaArAc2V07jIGAAbDAoMy A8YHEwKDIjMPemhlbAMgRGzqZwKDNBMNfQqACM8J2eI7F58yNTUCgAqBDbGBC2BuZzEwMzUK+ysS 8gwBYwBAIAqLbGm8MzYN8AtVFcIMAXADYAZ0BZAFQC0+IGJ1AQVAd2h5IGRvIKJFCHBvcGUDkWMR 0QIgEcB2ZSB0aG/5EfAgcwDAFREKsCEgEgAEaWMhcHViLTMgux1QHsByCoUfEQnwZwuAhQeQPxNw RkFJSx/lHiAkACDwBcARwGQgVoo4I7YgC4AgJ24FsAUhkScgcy4gT25s/nkKjxuvKAIqISeQIQAX oHxhcwIgJmAEIAdAKtAg1m0DECBAZyEALSDABJC7IQAmcUYLgBqBJaBnKsFnHVAqcQWgc3QrIQNg dQktATUuIrBGSU0gxChvJUIkMSkh0CVR+yLRF6AsJmAFQAQAKccU8K8g4AMQH6ABkHgJgC4n3xco 7zJSFsEANMADABAQAAAAAAMAERABAAAAQAAHMLD78NkhtLsBQAAIMLD78NkhtLsBHgA9AAEAAAAF AAAAUkU6IAAAAAADAA00/TcAAF3H - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBB433.7DE67E50-- ------------------------------ From: "Chaxel Frederic (QUALITE)" Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 12:00:20 +0100 Subject: RPM approximation-prediction Hi DIY_EFI members. I'm start to design and program an Injection-Ignition ECU for a simple engine (30 cm^3 mono-cylinder) which is used for the Eco-Marathon Shell : a competition with the less fuel consommation objective (1200 Km with one litre at Le Castelet in France) I'm a beginner in Injection-Ignition ECU, and I have one question by now : I get some TOP signals from a captor. This information is used to calculate the engine RPM and to calculate the Ignition time (by the way of a table). But of course I get the RPM at T time and used it for ignition at T+DT time (1 engine round after). Of course RPM is not the same at T+DT than at T (if the RPM change, which is often the case). So if I want to be exact I must approximate (predict) the RPM. My solution is actually to use RPM(T-1) and RPM(T) to calculate RPM(T+1) : RPM(T+1)=RPM(T)-RPM(T-1)+RMP(T)=2*RMP(T)-RPM(T-1) It's a simple linear approximation (and simple to program in assembly language). This give good results (much more better than using RPM(T+1)= RPM(T)) Maybe somebody know a better solution (Kalman Filter for instance, or ...) ? Sorry for my dirty English ! (o o) +----------------------oOO--(_)--OOo----------------------+ + + + CHAXEL Frederic Email : Chaxel@xxx.fr + + CRAN/GGP + + + + Research center Faculte des sciences + + for automatic control BP 239 + + of Nancy 54506 Vandoeuvre les Nancy + + France + + Tel : (33) 83.91.24.10 + + Fax : (33) 83.91.23.90 + + + +---------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #303 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".