DIY_EFI Digest Saturday, 19 October 1996 Volume 01 : Number 318 In this issue: Injector Flow Rate RCA TV Tuner Fix Re[2]: Using pc parts re: RCA TV Tuner Fix Re: Re[2]: Using pc parts Re: Excellent Gasoline FAQ Re: RCA TV Tuner Fix Knock Sensor Applications Re: Re: Injector Fuel Flow RE: Knock Sensor Applications Re: K-Jetronic with lambda oscillations RE:re:RCA Tuner Fix Re: Wires and such See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Greg Finnican Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 05:13:20 -0700 Subject: Injector Flow Rate Want to know what your injectors flow (lbs/hr)- send them to someone like us who have the equipment to test them. You might also find out the flow variation is unacceptable. Ultra-sonic cleaning does'nt always seem to bring them back in line. The cost to flow test eight injectors is $50. ------------------------------ From: Brad Anesi Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:44:17 -0600 Subject: RCA TV Tuner Fix This will be quick, since it has nothing to do with DIY-EFI, but I figured somebody out there might have an answer. Is there a DIY Consumer Electronics list and/or WWW page? I've got a 10+ year old RCA TV with a dead tuner (I strongly suspect), which isn't worth having somebody else fix. Any help is appreciated. Thanks, Brad ------------------------------ From: Greg Parmer Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:55:53 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re[2]: Using pc parts VB and Windows developers: Gauge "libraries" are available from Global Majic Software (www.globalmajic.com) which make these GUI displays from VB **very** easy. The automotive library makes building an instrument cluster on the screen a snap. Greg Parmer (in no way affiliated with GMS except as a potential customer) On 10 Oct 1996, Terry Sare wrote: > Actually, W95 or Windows 3.1 is your cheapest method of graphics for a > PC. While the reliability is somewhat suspect in that environment, it > is actually the easiest to write for using commercial graphics > library. Combine that with Visual Basic and you don't have to learn > Windows programming either. Yes, I know Windows s--ks but its cheap. > display machines for your dashboard. They also can be used as > dataloggers, etc. and network control for various systems used in the > car. At one time I was looking at using a PC for the dashboard and > distributed processing using Arcnet for communications link in my 68 > Firebird. I don't understand EFI and engines well enough to do it so > it got dropped. This list has been very educational!!!! > > TS ------------------------------ From: SRavet@xxx.com Date: Fri, 18 Oct 96 9:49:52 CDT Subject: re: RCA TV Tuner Fix Brad Anesi Wrote: | | This will be quick, since it has nothing to do with DIY-EFI, but I figured | somebody out there might have an answer. | Is there a DIY Consumer Electronics list and/or WWW page? I've got a | 10+ year old RCA TV with a dead tuner (I strongly suspect), which isn't | worth having somebody else fix. Any help is appreciated. | | Thanks, | | Brad | Hi Brad, the first place to start is Fil's electronics home page. He's got a lot of repair information, and lots of links to other pages. The URL is: http://www.paranoia.com/~filipg/ Everyone on this list could probably find something interesting at his site, give it a look. - --steve Steve Ravet sravet@xxx.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... ------------------------------ From: Daniel Ridge Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:13:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Re[2]: Using pc parts > VB and Windows developers: > Gauge "libraries" are available from Global Majic Software > (www.globalmajic.com) which make these GUI displays > from VB **very** easy. The automotive library makes > building an instrument cluster on the screen a snap. This is also trivial to do in TCL/TK if you prefer to use Unix for all your automotive projects. I have a couple simple examples. - -Dan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\___/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Daniel Ridge | USRA CESDIS Research Minion, Beowulf Project | Code 930.5 email: newt@xxx. W274 tel: 301-286-3062 | Goddard Space Flight Center fax: 301-286-1777 | Greenbelt, MD. 20771 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\_|_/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://cesdis.gsfc.nasa.gov/people/newt ------------------------------ From: John S Gwynne Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:08:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Excellent Gasoline FAQ - -------- |The way to do it is to put a link to it on our websites. Unfortunatly, I am |only the list slave and have no access to the guts of the web site, the |other john will have to do that. Actually, it seems to me that this belongs on http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~fridman/diy_efi (and it may already be there). Robert Fridman (fridman@xxx.ca) is the creator/maintainer of that. I believe the current role of the efi332 website should be limited to list services (archive, ftp site, etc.). John S Gwynne Gwynne.1@xxx.edu _______________________________________________________________________________ T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7297 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: hoss karoly Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 02:44:52 +0200 Subject: Re: RCA TV Tuner Fix SRavet@xxx.com wrote: > > Brad Anesi Wrote: > | > | This will be quick, since it has nothing to do with DIY-EFI, but I > figured > | somebody out there might have an answer. > | Is there a DIY Consumer Electronics list and/or WWW page? I've got a > | 10+ year old RCA TV with a dead tuner (I strongly suspect), which isn't > | worth having somebody else fix. Any help is appreciated. > | > cut it in half and connect it to your video player as I did now my video gives the tuner and gives composite video to the "monitor" the audio goes to the hifi stuff it's not portable anymore :) bye charley ------------------------------ From: William Boulton Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 06:28:07 +1000 (EST) Subject: Knock Sensor Applications Hi folks, I read a lot of e-mail about "knock sensors" and get the distinct impression that they are greatly misunderstood. This is especially so in the area of adding sensors to vehicles not normally fitted with one. I have an article on engine knock detection in the SAE magazine of December '93 which really threw me when I read it. I'd love to quote large passages from it but I don't want the SAE suing my butt off for breach of copyright so I'll summerize in my own words. There are 3 ways to detect knock in order of cost and complexity: auditory (ear), accelerometer knock sensor and pressure transducer. The authors of the article say none is without disadvantages regarding detection certainty. When refering to placement, they talk of "nodes" where knock can not be detected and "anti-nodes" where background noise swamps the signal entirely. You wouldn't want to place a sensor at either of these points. To make matters worse, on some engines, these ??nodes are not stationary but move around in some RPM related pattern. Peter reported once that GM spent millions on the problem and no one seemed to pick up on the significance of the fact. I doubt that corporations like GM would spend that sort of money if they didn't have to. But wait, there's more. There are 3 bands of knock noise to be considered at 6-8kHz, 11-13kHz and 17-20kHz. The significant band can vary with RPM and any number of other characteristics. Broad-band sensors are not the answer since they have problems with knock detection at mid range (3000 rpm) and require non trivial DSP (eg, 256 tap floating point FFT) to determine the presence of knock. OEMs use an advance determination method called MBT (Minimum spark advance for Best Torque), unfortunately knock can sometimes set in before best torque is realized. So far, things do not look very good. All of the above leads me to a number of conclusions (all mine): Knock sensors are not magic. They are basically a microphone in the noisiest (electrically & mechanically) environment possible. A knock sensor should be considered only in conjunction with an amplifier which is designed to match its characteristics and only on the engine for which it was designed. If a motor was never fitted with a knock sensor, don't bother. Just set as conservatively or agressively as you dare. It's your engine. You have to rebuild it if you break ring lands or burn a hole in a piston. If the motor is fitted with knock detection then duplicate the circuit exactly. Most pizo knock sensors have some bias voltage or current applied which influences the sensor responce characteristics. Learn to read spark plugs for signs of knock. (I can't, yet) I believe the OEMs are probably using the output of the knock sensor at points where it is known to be reliable and otherwise being very conservative. It has been reported that GM units over retard under some conditions. This may be the reason. Now that I have let the fox into the hen house, let's have some feed-back. I've seen the results of undetected knock and it ain't pretty and I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. I look forward to reading responces to this. Bill Boulton ------------------------------ From: William Boulton Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 06:25:54 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: Re: Injector Fuel Flow The best source for formulaes and conversions is the Bosch "Automotive Handbook" (the blue book). Get one of those and you are set for life. Bill Boulton........ On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Mark Eidson wrote: > What are the conversions between the various pressure measurement units, > e.g., kPa to PSI and what are the definitions of the units, e.g., PSI=pounds > per square inch? me > > > *************************************************************************** > * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * > * Staff Design Engineer Fax: (602)752-6000 * > * Manager System Integration and * > * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@xxx.com * > * VLSI Technology, Inc. * > * 8375 South River Parkway * > * M/S 265 * > * Tempe, Arizona 85284 * > *************************************************************************** > > ------------------------------ From: Walters Chris Date: Fri, 18 Oct 96 16:31:00 MST Subject: RE: Knock Sensor Applications >I read a lot of e-mail about "knock sensors" and get the distinct >impression that they are greatly misunderstood. This is especially so in >the area of adding sensors to vehicles not normally fitted with one. I >have an article on engine knock detection in the SAE magazine of December >'93 which really threw me when I read it. I'd love to quote large passages >from it but I don't want the SAE suing my butt off for breach of copyright >so I'll summerize in my own words. > >There are 3 ways to detect knock in order of cost and complexity: auditory >(ear), accelerometer knock sensor and pressure transducer. The authors of >the article say none is without disadvantages regarding detection >certainty. > >When refering to placement, they talk of "nodes" where knock can not be >detected and "anti-nodes" where background noise swamps the signal >entirely. You wouldn't want to place a sensor at either of these points. >To make matters worse, on some engines, these ??nodes are not stationary >but move around in some RPM related pattern. Peter reported once that GM >spent millions on the problem and no one seemed to pick up on the >significance of the fact. I doubt that corporations like GM would spend >that sort of money if they didn't have to. > >But wait, there's more. There are 3 bands of knock noise to be considered >at 6-8kHz, 11-13kHz and 17-20kHz. The significant band can vary with RPM >and any number of other characteristics. Broad-band sensors are not the >answer since they have problems with knock detection at mid range (3000 >rpm) and require non trivial DSP (eg, 256 tap floating point FFT) to >determine the presence of knock. > >OEMs use an advance determination method called MBT (Minimum spark advance >for Best Torque), unfortunately knock can sometimes set in before best >torque is realized. > >So far, things do not look very good. All of the above leads me to a >number of conclusions (all mine): > > Knock sensors are not magic. They are basically a microphone in the > noisiest (electrically & mechanically) environment possible. A knock > sensor should be considered only in conjunction with an amplifier > which is designed to match its characteristics and only on the engine > for which it was designed. > > If a motor was never fitted with a knock sensor, don't bother. Just > set as conservatively or agressively as you dare. It's your engine. > You have to rebuild it if you break ring lands or burn a hole in a > piston. > > If the motor is fitted with knock detection then duplicate the circuit > exactly. Most pizo knock sensors have some bias voltage or current > applied which influences the sensor responce characteristics. > > Learn to read spark plugs for signs of knock. (I can't, yet) > > I believe the OEMs are probably using the output of the knock sensor > at points where it is known to be reliable and otherwise being very > conservative. It has been reported that GM units over retard under > some conditions. This may be the reason. > >Now that I have let the fox into the hen house, let's have some feed-back. >I've seen the results of undetected knock and it ain't pretty and I >wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. I look forward to reading responces >to this. Greetings all, I'm Chris Walters aka Snake. I've recently joined this list, having drifted over from the fordnatics list. BSEE with 10 yrs programming and 1 year schematic-capture / PCB layout design experience. Also a gearhead, seeking to combine the two fields in my fleet of 70s-vintage Fords. I've checked out the list's web site and have only a layman's knowledge (so far) but one question comes immediately to mind: since detonation is caused by a too-lean condition couldn't you simply test the exhaust from each cylinder to determine if its running lean? If oxygen sensors don't provide enough accuracy perhaps some other type or combination of types, coupled with calculations from a uP, could. But if the answer was that simple you'd think the OEMs wouldn't've put so much effort into knock-detection - unless sensor technology available at the time wasn't up to the job. My D3VE-A2A heads have a small hole in each exhaust port for EGR - perfect for installing such a sensor. Snake no cool Fords yet, one cool Dodge ------------------------------ From: marvin2@xxx.com (Roy Browning) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:24:05 -0700 Subject: Re: K-Jetronic with lambda oscillations You wrote: > >Hello, i'm new to the mailing list therefore please excuse me if i make a >question which has been already treated in the past. > >I have a ferrari308QV which runs with a K-Jetronic with lambda fuel >injection system. the problem i notice is that when the lambda is connected >(with the computer in closed loop) the air/fuel mixture is oscillating >resulting in a corresponding oscillation of the engine speed. > >at first i though that the sensor was gone. changed the sensor: nothing >changes. > >measuring the voltage at the sensor i see that it jumps between lean and >rich rapidly with a peiod of ~1s. the frequency valve correspondingly >follows. the problem goes away when i disconnect the sensor and the >computer goes in open-loop automatically. > >one of the problems is that i have no real technical book that describes >the controller employed by the system. i can only assume that it is a PI >controller but i do not know is the controller is completely digital or if >there's an analog part as well. > >now the questions: > >-does anybody know what may be faulty? >-any bosch technical literature on the K-Jetronic computer? if yes where >can i find it. >-is it possible to change the control gains in the K-Jetronic? > >I appreciate any response . regards. > >Pietro > > >Pietro Barabaschi > >ITER-San Diego JWS >11025 N.Torrey Pines Rd.- LA JOLLA-CA 92037 >USA >[Tel:(1)(619)622-5156] >[Fax:(1)(619)452-8163] > > > Pietro, Bosch publishes a fuel injection book sold by any good book store. It covers all bosch FI systems. Roy Browning ------------------------------ From: Jennifer Rose Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:05:55 -0700 Subject: RE:re:RCA Tuner Fix Hi Brad A 10 year old RCA is probaly around a CTC 120ish chassis. The Tuner/tuner control module are noted for ring cracking around socket pins. Just need to resolder connections. Hope this helps-if not please send chassis number- will be able to give better help. Vance ps hope everyone is understanding about these posts ------------------------------ From: "Paul E. Campbell" Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:47:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Wires and such > [ snip ] > > >Like David said, soldering don't cut it when you are talking about wires > >that move around. Even wires that attach to a circuit board are (gasp) > >wrapped, not soldered, when used in high vibration environments. > > [ snip ] > > Soldered connections are still the standard for the majority of hi- > reliability connections. Mil-Spec (I mention this, because mil-spec > and NASA specs are some of the toughest in the world) and NASA allow > crimp only under very stringent guidelines (of course, the same could > be said for soldering). Wire wrap is NOT COOL for anything. It's only > for temporary connections or for connections which are in a non-hostile > environment (i.e. no humidity or temperature extremes, no vibration, etc. > -- essentially in a building). [the rest of the discussion of wire wrap vs. soldering vs. crimping deleted for brevity] I've recently started doing things totally different. The thing that scared the willys out of me is altering or repairing surface mount circuits. They are quite literally NO FUN to solder to. However, there's a new way of doing it... You simply use conductive inks to construct your circuit. You can do this on plastic, cardboard, paper, mylar (my favorite), wood, or whatever useful surface you have. Some inks require a heated curing to make them really solid/dry, some don't. Some have much better conductivity than others. And some can actually be soldered to when you get done. Only problem with most of them is they have problems with the suspension settling and problems with shelf lives. But the REALLY nifty material is electrically conductive adhesives like two part epoxies and some thermally sensitive adhesives (use a heat gun to make the adhesive loosen up enough to replace a component). In both cases, silver, gold, copper, or nickel powders are added to ordinary inks/adhesives for conductivity. One company even sells the inks in a ball point pen arrangement so you can literally sketch/print the circuit out on paper and then simply trace it out with the pen. This stuff isn't limited to surface mount only. For example, buy a piece of fiberglass. Draw out your circuit using conductive inks. Drill out the appropriate holes and mount the chips to it using conventional soldering. Glue the wires on using a two-part conductive epoxy. And if you REALLY need to make traces cross each other, whack off a piece of plastic, glue it down using "normal" nonconductive epoxy, draw your traces across the "bridge", and make little adhesive "bridges" down onto the main board with conductive epoxy (not necessary but just in case the ink cracks along the edge of the plastic/fiberglass gap). Course it's probably easier to just glue a piece of insulated copper wire down using a combination of conductive and nonconductive epoxy. I've also heard of people using the "green stuff" that's usually used over the top of conventional circuit boards as the insulator. Since you can get photosensitive versions, they used several layers to make channels and then built multilayer boards completely out of conductive inks and insulator material. With surface mount components, you simply make a little pool of adhesive on a piece of scrap cardboard. Dip the edges of the surface mount chip in the adhesive and stick it on the board where it belongs. Another point (though not a major one to me anyways...) is that most of the "base" inks and adhesives are usually polymers, acrylics, etc., so they are about as "environmentally friendly" as you can get...most of them are safe to flush down the drain even with a septic tank for instance. Also look for some of the carbon-based paints. They don't do diddly for conductivity but you can enclose any RF sensitive/interfering components in a cardboard cover (glue it on) and then paint it with the RF shielding paint. Makes building those faraday cages trivial. ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #318 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. 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