DIY_EFI Digest Monday, 21 October 1996 Volume 01 : Number 320 In this issue: Re: Wires and such Re: Wires and such Tach input from spark voltage (idea) Re: Knock Sensor Applications Re: Tach input from spark voltage (idea) Re: Tach input from spark voltage (idea) Re: Knock Sensor Applications Re: Tach input from spark voltage (BEWARE!!!) Re: Tach input from spark voltage (idea) Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #319 Re: RCA tuner fix. (VW EFI DIAGRAMS) Re: GM EGR re: Knock Sensing (More) re: Knock Sensing Re: Tach input from spark voltage (BEWARE!!!) Re: Knock Sensor Applications Re: Tach input from spark voltage (BEWARE!!!) Re: Bosch Stuff tach input GM knock sensing Re[2]: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #319 See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Mallory Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 07:36:46 -0700 Subject: Re: Wires and such Johnny wrote: > > The AMP tool die set actually compresses the connector without flattening > it. For this to work the best, you need to use the connectors that go with > the die set you are using. IOW, Amp dies --> AMP connectors. If you use the > die set that punches the connector you need to use connectors made for > this. They have insulators that don't punch through. AMP, Belden, > WireWorks?, all make a good line of connectors and multiple die set > crimpers. Once you have the crimper tool itself, the extra die sets are > about 30 bucks a piece. I think there are about 30-40 different die sets > available for everything from standard butt connectors to BNC's to Moldex > terminals to Ignition cables. Any excuse to get another special tool. ;-) Thanks, but I have enough special tools right now. But where would I get a tool/die set for ignition wires? ------------------------------ From: "Johnny" Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 10:25:15 -0700 Subject: Re: Wires and such Same tool, different die set. So I guess you do still have room for a few more special tools. ;-) See your local AMP or Belden distributor. I got my crimper from Chief Aircraft when I was stuck at their airport in Oregon one day. They stock several of the die sets for it, but I don't think they stock the auto ignition ones as aircraft ignition harnesses are very different. I'm sure you could do better on price from someone else also. Call AMP or Belden and ask them who their big distributor is in your area. Some of the major computer network distributors carry the same crimpers also, but again, I doubt they carry the ignition dies for it. You'll probably have to order those. - -j- - ---------- > From: Frank Mallory > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: Wires and such > Date: Sunday, October 20, 1996 7:36 AM > > Johnny wrote: > > > > The AMP tool die set actually compresses the connector without flattening > > it. For this to work the best, you need to use the connectors that go with > > the die set you are using. IOW, Amp dies --> AMP connectors. If you use the > > die set that punches the connector you need to use connectors made for > > this. They have insulators that don't punch through. AMP, Belden, > > WireWorks?, all make a good line of connectors and multiple die set > > crimpers. Once you have the crimper tool itself, the extra die sets are > > about 30 bucks a piece. I think there are about 30-40 different die sets > > available for everything from standard butt connectors to BNC's to Moldex > > terminals to Ignition cables. Any excuse to get another special tool. ;-) > > Thanks, but I have enough special tools right now. > > But where would I get a tool/die set for ignition wires? ------------------------------ From: Grant Beattie Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 11:29:27 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Tach input from spark voltage (idea) I've been working on various inductive tach schemes with some success. I want to try a new approach which would be to take the input to the tach from the "points" or "tach" signal from a car distributor (or whatever). In case my description is lacking, from the input or low voltage side of the coil (or cap or whatever). What voltage range should I expect this signal to be in? Are we talking tens of volts or hundreds? I understand that the spark plug sees kV, but the input to the spark circuit should be quite a bit lower, right? My application is data acquisition for cars/karts/motorcycles. Thanks, GB http://ourwolrd.compuserve.com/homepages/grantb ------------------------------ From: "John Faubion" Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 13:00:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Knock Sensor Applications > OEMs use an advance determination method called MBT (Minimum spark advance > for Best Torque), unfortunately knock can sometimes set in before best > torque is realized. > > So far, things do not look very good. All of the above leads me to a > number of conclusions (all mine): Everyone is talking about knock sensor problems. Why not do it the way we do in kart racing? We only have a single cylinder. With everyone so close to each other in terms of weight and power, any loss in power will get you passed! We use cylinder head and exhaust temperature gauges. The CHT mounts under the spark plug and EGT is obviously mounted in the exhaust stream. We tune the engines using low and high speed jets on the carburetors. The key to good tuning and max. power are watching the relationship between the two gauges. As you lean out the carburetor both CHT and EGT will rise. This will continue until the point of incipient detenation (can't be heard). At this point the CHT keeps rising and EGT drops. If you let this continue the piston sticks in the bore and your out of the race. There are some drawbacks to this method. The EGT responds almost instaneously while the CHT lags behind a bit. We also use aluminum heads which would allow the CHT to respond sooner than an iron head. In addition we also only have a single cylinder to deal with instead of 4 to 8. Still I think this might be a better way to tune for max. power since the lamba sensor doesn't do a great job of it at WOT. Does this help spark any new ideas? John Faubion ------------------------------ From: "Johnny" Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 11:26:48 -0700 Subject: Re: Tach input from spark voltage (idea) The voltage on the primary side of the coil varies with the type of ignition. On a good ol' points & coil ignition it is: battery voltage minus the ballast resistor. On the coil it will say 12 volts, or 24 volts in some applications. The primary coil voltage on a CD ignition or various electronic ignitions (depending on configuration) can vary greatly. I have one box that uses coils that see about 400 volts on the primary side. Some of these systems use a standard 12 volt coil, some do not. I know that this answer isn't as cut and dried as you had hoped, but they are not all the same. If you are looking to do a "standard" ignition, the primary voltage is less than 12 volts. Are your concerns for an inductive pickup about saturation or calibration or? - -j- - ---------- > From: Grant Beattie > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Tach input from spark voltage (idea) > Date: Sunday, October 20, 1996 10:29 AM > > > I've been working on various inductive tach schemes with some success. I > want to try a new approach which would be to take the input to the tach > from the "points" or "tach" signal from a car distributor (or whatever). > > In case my description is lacking, from the input or low voltage side of > the coil (or cap or whatever). What voltage range should I expect this > signal to be in? Are we talking tens of volts or hundreds? > > I understand that the spark plug sees kV, but the input to the spark > circuit should be quite a bit lower, right? > > My application is data acquisition for cars/karts/motorcycles. > > Thanks, > GB > http://ourwolrd.compuserve.com/homepages/grantb ------------------------------ From: Grant Beattie Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 13:34:42 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: Tach input from spark voltage (idea) On Sun, 20 Oct 1996, Johnny wrote: > one box that uses coils that see about 400 volts on the primary side. Some > of these systems use a standard 12 volt coil, some do not. I know that this > answer isn't as cut and dried as you had hoped, but they are not all the > same. If you are looking to do a "standard" ignition, the primary voltage > is less than 12 volts. Are your concerns for an inductive pickup about > saturation or calibration or? The inductive approach works fine for single-cylinder (kart, lawnmower , ...) engines, but in a car, there are too many stray signals from the other plug wires and such. I started playing around with the sensitivity, but that means I would need different pickups for different engines. So I thought maybe if I went back to the source... The range 12v to 400v is mildly discouraging. I know national makes devices that might fit this application. I was hoping to use an opto-isolator though, and the limited current range (1mA to 16mA) is tough to match to 12v to 400v. Hmmm. Thanks for the info, GB http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/grantb (Data acquisition for racing) ------------------------------ From: "Johnny" Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 13:17:51 -0700 Subject: Re: Knock Sensor Applications Not to trying to slam anyone here, but CHT is not real useful with water cooled heads. You don't get the same kind of responses with it. So for water cooled, use the EGT alone. It acts exactly the same no matter if air or water cooled, and it is the one that falls off when you get on the lean side anyway. In aircraft, with the adjustable mixture being more or less standard, that's how it's done. Part of flying is engine management and that includes leaning to peak and for some engines, leaning to xdegrees cooler than peak on the EGT. This was one of the first obstacles I had to tackle when I started to develop an EFI V8 for aircraft... how do I, or can I run closed loop with no O2 sensor? No O2 sensor because of leaded fuel. Leaded fuel because not every airport sells MOGAS. With aircraft being more or less steady state engines, and because it was easier, at first I decided that I wouldn't do any closed loop and would run strictly from "table" using MAP, intake air temp, engine temp, RPM, ambient atmospheric pressure, and throttle position, with a "trim" pot on the dash for if the mixture needed correcting, just like a "normal" aircraft engine. Then I thought, why not have the computer do it instead, using a correction table based on EGT just like the person would, and achieve WOT closed loop that way. While using a Haltech E6 box as the ECU, I tried to devise an interface for the EGT sensor that would give input to the box as an O2 sensor would. A driver or interpreter if you will. I didn't get it to work as well as I wanted to and will be doing more with it later on after other more critical issues are handled. The main problem I had was getting the EGT sensors I have calibrated to something useful for the O2 sensor input on the Haltech box. EGT is wide scale, O2 sensor is narrow. The other issue was picking an EGT sensor that I thought I could get in the future as this is to be a production engine. I ended up doing a (gasp) simple OPamp circuit to do the conversion which was not satisfactory because of the wide range of the EGT sensor and the nonlinearity between the two scales. I think I need to go analog->digital->analog to get enough control of what the output to the O2 sensor input of the box is. Of course if you were building the ECU from scratch, you could just build all of this in to it. I just wanted to go flying with an EFI V8 under the cowling, not have to build every little wheel involved from scratch. IOW; Yes, it is the way to go for reading the end mixture at high power settings. The EGT/PowerOutput link are as close a link as you will get. - -j- - ---------- > From: John Faubion > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: Knock Sensor Applications > Date: Sunday, October 20, 1996 11:00 AM > > > OEMs use an advance determination method called MBT (Minimum spark > advance > > for Best Torque), unfortunately knock can sometimes set in before best > > torque is realized. > > > > So far, things do not look very good. All of the above leads me to a > > number of conclusions (all mine): > > Everyone is talking about knock sensor problems. Why not do it the way we > do in kart racing? We only have a single cylinder. With everyone so close > to each other in terms of weight and power, any loss in power will get you > passed! We use cylinder head and exhaust temperature gauges. The CHT mounts > under the spark plug and EGT is obviously mounted in the exhaust stream. We > tune the engines using low and high speed jets on the carburetors. The key > to good tuning and max. power are watching the relationship between the two > gauges. As you lean out the carburetor both CHT and EGT will rise. This > will continue until the point of incipient detenation (can't be heard). At > this point the CHT keeps rising and EGT drops. If you let this continue the > piston sticks in the bore and your out of the race. > > There are some drawbacks to this method. The EGT responds almost > instaneously while the CHT lags behind a bit. We also use aluminum heads > which would allow the CHT to respond sooner than an iron head. In addition > we also only have a single cylinder to deal with instead of 4 to 8. Still I > think this might be a better way to tune for max. power since the lamba > sensor doesn't do a great job of it at WOT. Does this help spark any new > ideas? > > John Faubion ------------------------------ From: hoss karoly Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 05:04:38 +0200 Subject: Re: Tach input from spark voltage (BEWARE!!!) Johnny wrote: > > The voltage on the primary side of the coil varies with the type of > ignition. On a good ol' points & coil ignition it is: battery voltage minus > the ballast resistor. On the coil it will say 12 volts, or 24 volts in some > applications. The primary coil voltage on a CD ignition or various > electronic ignitions (depending on configuration) can vary greatly. I have > one box that uses coils that see about 400 volts on the primary side. Some > of these systems use a standard 12 volt coil, some do not. I know that this > answer isn't as cut and dried as you had hoped, but they are not all the > same. If you are looking to do a "standard" ignition, the primary voltage > is less than 12 volts. Are your concerns for an inductive pickup about > saturation or calibration or? > wow ! don't try it unless U wish to fry a few components the good 'ol points & coil sys the primary runs up to 3-400 volts the spikes are MUCH higher so BEWARE ! if you wish to use some impulse use a hall sensor it's smaller than a teardrop or cut the pulses with a big resistor and zener diodes but it can affect the ignition bye charley ------------------------------ From: "Johnny" Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 14:45:53 -0700 Subject: Re: Tach input from spark voltage (idea) Don't let what I said discourage you. Most of the applications you are probably going to be targeting use the "standard" 12 volt coil. It is only the CD ignitions, whether electronic or not, that give the big kick to the primary side of the coil, and a lot of them use the standard 12 volt coil anyway. I would think that you would be covering the vast majority of apps if you designed around that model. Or, if you couldn't do a one fits all solution, do one that fits what you need or the majority of the market place first, then cover the rest later with a different model. I can see the usefulness of the inductive opto-isolated primary side tach. No matter what happens to the tach or the interface, it won't affect the ignition itself (aircraft thinking here). Most electronic ignitions have a tach output, but what happens when the tach that is connected to them shorts out? I think you have a great idea by doing inductive pickup on the primary side. - -j- - ---------- > From: Grant Beattie > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: Tach input from spark voltage (idea) > Date: Sunday, October 20, 1996 12:34 PM > > On Sun, 20 Oct 1996, Johnny wrote: > > > one box that uses coils that see about 400 volts on the primary side. Some > > of these systems use a standard 12 volt coil, some do not. I know that this > > answer isn't as cut and dried as you had hoped, but they are not all the > > same. If you are looking to do a "standard" ignition, the primary voltage > > is less than 12 volts. Are your concerns for an inductive pickup about > > saturation or calibration or? > > The inductive approach works fine for single-cylinder (kart, lawnmower > , ...) engines, but in a car, there are too many stray signals from the > other plug wires and such. I started playing around with the sensitivity, > but that means I would need different pickups for different engines. So I > thought maybe if I went back to the source... > > The range 12v to 400v is mildly discouraging. I know national makes > devices that might fit this application. I was hoping to use an > opto-isolator though, and the limited current range (1mA to 16mA) is > tough to match to 12v to 400v. Hmmm. > > Thanks for the info, > GB > > http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/grantb > (Data acquisition for racing) ------------------------------ From: talltom Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 14:51:35 -0700 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #319 > > ------------------------------ > > From: jac@xxx.us > Date: Sat, 19 Oct 96 20:27:32 PDT > Subject: Virtual Instruments > > The October 1996 issue of SPORT AVIATION magazine has an article about a new > plane by Burt Rutan. They use an embedded Mac to monitor the plane and a > power book as a display and input device. They take the powerbook home to > plan flights and to analyze data. In an aircraft, displacing a panel full > of instruments will buy both computers and then some. These are respected > people and they made the system work. The whole article is a lesson in > cutting loose from conventional design. I reccomend the article as a study > in both topics. Along the same line if you're open minded enough I'd recommend taking a look at the Mercedes F-200 concept car introduced last month. Pretty much the entire car is joystick controlled, and tests have shown people able to manipulate it more precisely than conventional systems. The other neat wrinkle is that it's cheaper(no steering column) and it doesn't care which side of the road you drive on, it can be driven equally from either side. One other thing that I'm sure will be controversial, the control system responds as per drivers input, unless the computer figuires the drivers input is inappropriate... Course with all the success MBZ and BMW have had with thier motronics blowing up, I can't wait for this......This is going to be good!!!:-) - -- >>---------------------------------CUT------------------------------------------<<"a society that will trade a little freedom for a little order deserves neither" Thomas Jefferson Clinton doesn't want anything Hitler didn't have. What do you get with Bob Dole, Bill Clinton, and Dolly Parton in the same room? Two boobs and a country singer! Harry Browne for US president 96! Talltom ------------------------------ From: Craig Pugsley Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 11:19:23 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: RCA tuner fix. (VW EFI DIAGRAMS) > Hi Brad, the first place to start is Fil's electronics home page. He's got > a lot of repair information, and lots of links to other pages. The URL is: > > http://www.paranoia.com/~filipg/ > > Everyone on this list could probably find something interesting at his > site, give it a look. This guy said on sci.electronics a while ago that there were some reverse engineered curcuits of VW L-Jet somewhere on the net.. I tried emailing him (2-3 times) with no reply.. Anyone seen this stuff? Cheers, Craig. ------------------------------ From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:34:02 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: GM EGR At 08:22 PM 10/15/96 -0700, you wrote: >EGR valve in this system is a negative back pressure valve. Believe EGR >depends on back pressure from exhuast system to work correctly. Since my pu >is dual exhuast with out cats, back pressure probaly nil. Just need to >increase back pressure :( or fiqure how to change valve. So don't throw your >valve away yet. Hmm, negative back pressure valve, can you explain the following? With engine not running, I can pull & hold vacuum on the egr actuator. With engine idling the actuator behaves as though it has a large hole in the diaphram. Bad valve or normal operation? The guy who owned the bird before I got the engine ran no cat with 3" dual exhaust pipes. I'm not sure if he had the code 32 error, but he smoked lots of "hot rods" before he wrecked it. GMD ------------------------------ From: RABBITT_Andrew@xxx.au Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 09:33:12 est Subject: re: Knock Sensing (More) > until the point of incipient detenation (can't be heard). At > this point the CHT keeps rising and EGT drops. If you let this > continue... The EGT is probably dropping because of the increased heat transfer to the cylinder wall caused by the vastly increased turbulence during knock. A properly designed knock sensor based controller will respond much faster than a thermocouple in the exhaust will, reducing the chance of engine damage. Neat way of tuning a mechanical system though!. Andrew Rabbitt ------------------------------ From: RABBITT_Andrew@xxx.au Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 09:26:26 est Subject: re: Knock Sensing > OEMs use an advance determination method called MBT (Minimum spark > advance for Best Torque), unfortunately knock can sometimes set in > before best torque is realized. just to clarify a point, MBT stands for Max. Brake Torque which is usually arrived at by manipulation of the ignition angle. When you are increasing advance to approach MBT and run into detonation, this is known as the Borderline Detonation Limit (BDL). > since detonation is caused by a too-lean condition not generally the case in the sense that you can knock at 12:1 as well as 16:1. However for a given ignition advance, increasing the A/F ratio will probably induce knock. The point at which this happens is a function of many variables including fuel quality, charge temperature and cylinder/coolant temperature. The point is that it's not determinable solely on A/F ratio. > When refering to placement, they talk of "nodes" where knock can not > be detected and "anti-nodes" where background noise swamps the > signal entirely. You wouldn't want to place a sensor at either of > these points. Sensors are also 'window' sampled at certain crank angles. Knock usually most intense shortly after TDC, however depending on the number and arrangement of the cylinders this window must avoid closing valves and other impact type events which can excite structural resonances at frequencies that can look like knock. Andrew Rabbitt ------------------------------ From: "Johnny" Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 18:48:54 -0700 Subject: Re: Tach input from spark voltage (BEWARE!!!) I know that's what we were taught in school, but I have never been able to "scope" anything near that high out of a simple points and coil system with a cap to ground on each post of the coil. I also don't understand the line below about the resister and zener bit. He wanted to use an inductive pickup to sense the ignition on the primary side, not attach to it directly. > wow ! don't try it unless U wish to fry a few components > the good 'ol points & coil sys the primary runs up to 3-400 volts > the spikes are MUCH higher so BEWARE ! > if you wish to use some impulse use a hall sensor it's smaller than a > teardrop > or cut the pulses with a big resistor and zener diodes but it can affect > the ignition > > bye > charley ------------------------------ From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 21:18:34 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Knock Sensor Applications At 06:28 AM 10/19/96 +1000, you wrote: cut!... > If a motor was never fitted with a knock sensor, don't bother. Just > set as conservatively or agressively as you dare. I fitted a GM TBI system to a early 350 engine. In researching where to put the knock sensor I discovered several interesting things. GM has put them in different locations for different engines (even among the same engine). I rolled the dice and used a 3.8L sensor on a 5.7L engine (5.7L ESC module). I put the knock sensor on the lifting tab on the intake. Well, it all worked just fine. When it comes to luck, I often roll snake eyes! I guess I've used my luck allotment for this lifetime >Peter reported once that GM >spent millions on the problem and no one seemed to pick up on the >significance of the fact. The same can be said for Fuel maps, ignition timing systems, and lumbar seats. Just like we incorporate precesion roller bearings in many DIY back yard designs, few people try to machine there own balls. > I believe the OEMs are probably using the output of the knock sensor > at points where it is known to be reliable and otherwise being very > conservative. It has been reported that GM units over retard under > some conditions. This may be the reason. Can the GM ECM modify its spark timing map to compensate for external conditions that will affect spark knock, or does it simply advance to detonation? Soon it will be time to install the low pressure turbo on the 3.8L MPI with a 9-1 c.r. I'm sure spark timing is going to be a real monster. GMD ------------------------------ From: Grant Beattie Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 21:58:44 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: Tach input from spark voltage (BEWARE!!!) On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, hoss karoly wrote: > wow ! don't try it unless U wish to fry a few components > the good 'ol points & coil sys the primary runs up to 3-400 volts > the spikes are MUCH higher so BEWARE ! Well, a few hundred volts shouldn't be un-solvable. Many of the Nat Semi devices connect directly to the "points" with a few passive components. GB ------------------------------ From: Land Shark Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 23:29:22 -0600 Subject: Re: Bosch Stuff At 16:46 10/19/96 -0700, you wrote: >Does anyone know of a way to adapt either a Hotwire Air flow meter or use >a MAP sensor in leiu of any AFM on a L-Jetronic or Motronic ECU? I need >to get more air/fuel in my Alfa Romeo and have both systems available. Use Motronic .. Use a HOT FILM sensor .. Have BOTH sensors flowed by Best Products ... Remap the flow curve in the DME Do you have the Motronic unit .. have you dumped the EPROM yet?!? Jim PS: Yes, I've done it before .. for lots of BMW's .. ------------------------------ From: Krister Wikstrom Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 08:41:12 +0200 Subject: tach input >The range 12v to 400v is mildly discouraging. I know national makes >devices that might fit this application. I was hoping to use an >opto-isolator though, and the limited current range (1mA to 16mA) is >tough to match to 12v to 400v. Hmmm. I have used opto-isolator, and didn't have any problems. I found an old 4N25 opto, put two resistors in series, and a zener diode from between the resistors to the other side of the input diode - the first resistor limits the current to the zener (I used 15V), and the next one sets the max current to the opto input. The zener also removes any negative voltage, that the opto can't handle (was it 3V max). This was then connected to the primary side of the coil, and works fine, except I have some software problems (small 8031 design)... 4N25 can handle several amps short peaks, so this should be ok - I'm not an experienced designer, but this has worked fine - any comments (I never looked at it with a scope)? Krister Wikstrom kwi@xxx.fi ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.au Date: Mon, 21 Oct 96 16:11:48 Subject: GM knock sensing On the business of knock sensing (especially GM). Does anyone know how the 5 pin ignition module works. I figured it is similar to a 4 pin module, but somehow the 5th pin from the est module is used to retard the timing. How is this done in the ignition module ? Also I want to connect the old style HEI dizzy to the computer for computer controlled mapping. Can the 7 pin module be fitted in this dizzy ? and does it have the reguired output (tacho signal) to the computer as well as the required input (coil drive signal) from the computer ? I read something about a 5V bypass signal on the 7 pin module, what's this for ? Hopefully thanks in advance Dan dzorde@xxx.au ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.au Date: Mon, 21 Oct 96 15:48:28 Subject: Re[2]: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #319 no thanks, I've broken too many joysticks playing computer games (when too excited) to trust one to control a car. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #319 Author: diy_efi@xxx.edu at INTERNET Date: 10/21/96 7:43 AM Along the same line if you're open minded enough I'd recommend taking a look at t he Mercedes F-200 concept car introduced last month. Pretty much the entire car is joystick controlled, and tests have shown people able to manipulate it more preci sely than conventional systems. The other neat wrinkle is that it's cheaper(no steerin g column) and it doesn't care which side of the road you drive on, it can be driven equally from either side. One other thing that I'm sure will be controversial, the control system respon ds as per drivers input, unless the computer figuires the drivers input is inappropr iate... Course with all the success MBZ and BMW have had with thier motronics blowing up, I can't wait for this......This is going to be good!!!:-) - -- >>---------------------------------CUT------------------------------------------ < <"a society that will trade a little freedom for a little order deserves neither" Thomas Jefferson Clinton doesn't want anything Hitler didn't have. What do you get with Bob Dole, Bill Clinton, and Dolly Parton in the same room? Two boobs and a country singer! Harry Browne for US president 96! Talltom ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #320 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. 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