DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, 7 November 1996 Volume 01 : Number 337 In this issue: Injector list Backfire just off idle cold Need help with Mazda EFI. Injecting Water Re: Need a 15lb/hr injector...hmmm. Re: Need a 15lb/hr injector...hmmm. Re: Need help with Mazda EFI. Re: Need help with Mazda EFI. Re: Injecting Water Re: Virus Re: Virus Re: Virus Re: Need a 15lb/hr injector...hmmm. O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop Re: Backfire just off idle cold See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Davis Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 06:02:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: Injector list Matti Kalahati has a full list of all Toyota injectors on his homepage. They may not be big enough for you folks, but the list covers pretty much everything Toyota made. http://proffa.cc.tut.fi/~k124476/tm_index.html (it is somewhere in there) Scott 80 Corolla SR-5 Liftback 13T-U http://www.cen.uiuc.edu/~ssdavis1/index.htm Many 80-83 rolla parts for sale! ------------------------------ From: Mark Eidson Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 10:06:43 -0700 Subject: Backfire just off idle cold I'm having a hard time programming operation during warm up. When the engine is cold and running below 2000 RPM it will backfire when the throttle is more than slightly depressed. What options do I have with ignition and mixture to cure this problem. me *************************************************************************** * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * * Staff Design Engineer Fax: (602)752-6000 * * Manager System Integration and * * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@xxx.com * * VLSI Technology, Inc. * * 8375 South River Parkway * * M/S 265 * * Tempe, Arizona 85284 * *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Tuck Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 13:44:00 -0500 Subject: Need help with Mazda EFI. I recently cracked open the ECU on my 1987 (non Turbo) RX-7 to repair a fault in the bypass air control valve circuit, and in the process somehow disabled the ignition system (I think). I have tested the computer in the car and the readings for ignition look normal, but I am pretty sure that I am getting no spark (and I know that fuel is working because I smelled unburned fuel after the first time I tried to start it (extended cranking). This confuses me a bit since I didn't touch the drive electronics for that, but such is life. I'm not an EE (Was an EE Major, but not anymore), but I'm competent with a soldering iron and I have the necessary patience to solve the problems with the unit. I figure that I must've toasted the drive transistors for the ignition system (the normal readings for the pinouts are 0 volts, so it's hard to tell and I don't have the equipment to test them independantly). I can't trace the parts though, so I'm wondering if anyone knows a replacement for the following transistors: NEC D1309 NEC D1491 The last one doesn't have a recognizable manufacturer's ID on it, but the part number stamped on it is: B605 IL66A I might also be interested in tracing a IC from the logic portion of the board. It is a Toshiba Japan part TC40H157P (8640H). Justin "Tuck" Cordesman SOLID BRASS-> I've been burned over Cheryl Tiegs, Blown up for Raquel Welch... PERCEPTION: You were second fastest in the race. REALITY: You were the fastest loser. ------------------------------ From: Jason Walters Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 11:35:47 -0800 Subject: Injecting Water I've heard a little about "Water Injection" Systems. What type of injectors are used to inject water along with fuel to boost horsepower? Where might I get my hands on some? Lastly, a silly question: What would happen if I pumped distilled water through a fuel injector? Would it kill/corrode it, or would things be fine? Please: No snappy comments like "Why don't you go try it, you freakin' idiot." I'm on a major fixed budget, and I'd hate to eat further into my research $$. Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks, Jason ------------------------------ From: Jason Walters Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 11:36:43 -0800 Subject: Re: Need a 15lb/hr injector...hmmm. >Thor Johnson wrote: > 1. What is the minimum time you can open an injector (was just going to > drive it w/ a simple transistor & not mess w/ the NatSemi chips) > > 2. Does anyone have a list of smaller injectors, and/or a "el-cheapo" I would also like to ask a couple of questions along this line: How many VDC do they need? How many amps do they draw? Or, more importantly, is there a URL with some specifications you could point me to . . . so you aren't bored to tears responding to my questions?! I realize some of the folks on this list are rocket scientists. Also, if someone would like to post or email me a plan for a (cheap) injector driver circuit, I would be most grateful. Thanks. Jason Walters jasonw@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Frank Parker Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 15:53:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Need a 15lb/hr injector...hmmm. > Also, if someone would like to post or email me a plan for a (cheap) > injector driver circuit, I would be most grateful. > > Thanks. > > Jason Walters > jasonw@xxx.com > You can use a simple d cell to do real cheap but for best repeatable results, I purchased a nice settable ( 3.5 ms and 10 ms) injector tester from JC Whitney of all places for about $35. Can set to 1000 pulses and stop- very nice for flowing injectors. frank Parker > ------------------------------ From: Stephen Dubovsky Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:42:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Need help with Mazda EFI. At 01:44 PM 11/6/96 -0500, you wrote: >I recently cracked open the ECU on my 1987 (non Turbo) RX-7 to repair a >fault in the bypass air control valve circuit, and in the process somehow >disabled the ignition system (I think). I have tested the computer in the >car and the readings for ignition look normal, but I am pretty sure that I >am getting no spark (and I know that fuel is working because I smelled >unburned fuel after the first time I tried to start it (extended cranking). >This confuses me a bit since I didn't touch the drive electronics for that, >but such is life. ... Funny, when I had an 88 non turbo RX-7, I would get no spark when the air cleaner/housing was off. Cranked for a long time (w/ jumper cables), gave up on it and put the cleaner back on, and it started right up. Couldn't find a bypass switch anywhere, but something was going on to prevent the machine from going. Doubt this helps, but it may indicate there are several things the ecu checks before allowing the engine to start. If anything like this is the case, I would be interested. SMD - -- Stephen Dubovsky dubovsky@xxx.edu 95 Yamaha FZR600 83 Porsche 911SC 84 Jeep Cherokee ------------------------------ From: Fred Miranda Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 15:32:05 -0800 Subject: Re: Need help with Mazda EFI. I know the fuel pump won't run unless there is some airflow to open the air flow meter door a little. This closes the circuit to the fuel pump relay. Maybe the ign. is related. Fred At 04:42 PM 11/6/96 -0500, you wrote: >At 01:44 PM 11/6/96 -0500, you wrote: >>I recently cracked open the ECU on my 1987 (non Turbo) RX-7 to repair a >>fault in the bypass air control valve circuit, and in the process somehow >>disabled the ignition system (I think). I have tested the computer in the >>car and the readings for ignition look normal, but I am pretty sure that I >>am getting no spark (and I know that fuel is working because I smelled >>unburned fuel after the first time I tried to start it (extended cranking). >>This confuses me a bit since I didn't touch the drive electronics for that, >>but such is life. >... > > Funny, when I had an 88 non turbo RX-7, I would get no spark when the air >cleaner/housing was off. Cranked for a long time (w/ jumper cables), gave >up on it and put the cleaner back on, and it started right up. Couldn't >find a bypass switch anywhere, but something was going on to prevent the >machine from going. Doubt this helps, but it may indicate there are several >things the ecu checks before allowing the engine to start. If anything like >this is the case, I would be interested. >SMD >-- >Stephen Dubovsky >dubovsky@xxx.edu > >95 Yamaha FZR600 >83 Porsche 911SC >84 Jeep Cherokee > > > ------------------------------ From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 19:04:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Injecting Water At 11:35 AM 11/6/96 -0800, you wrote: >I've heard a little about "Water Injection" Systems. > >What type of injectors are used to inject water along with fuel to boost >horsepower? > >Where might I get my hands on some? > >Lastly, a silly question: What would happen if I pumped distilled water >through a fuel injector? Would it kill/corrode it, or would things be >fine? Please: No snappy comments like "Why don't you go try it, you >freakin' idiot." I'm on a major fixed budget, and I'd hate to eat >further into my research $$. > >Any help would be much appreciated. > >Thanks, > >Jason > Unless the injector is 100% steel or iron free, it will rust. In the power generation industry, we remove all (well, to less than 10 parts per billion remaining) oxygen from the water to keep rust from forming in the feed water path. This is fairly expensive. Most water inj equipment uses simple orffices to control the flow. Forced induction systems will somtime use the boost as the propellant with an orffice to restrict flow. I'll be giving this one a try, real soon. There are companies that make water service instrumentation solenoid valves. Don't know if they are responsive enough to meeter water in real time. I know you don't want to hear this, but you realy should give it a try. Most of these systems are relatively crude (windshield washer pumps for example). The fact that you are on this list means you aint afraid of screw drivers and solder, so go for it. Just be sure to research it first, check the archives of this list. There were several ropes about this topic going on. GMD ------------------------------ From: hoss karoly Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 01:29:31 +0100 Subject: Re: Virus tom cloud wrote: >>> > >>> Does anybody know potential values for n? Does it only damage the > >>> processor for certain values of n or are all values dangerous? > > >>the bigger n the more dangereous the loop is > >>as I can remember my machine code lessons the processor temp relates > >>to n like > >>increase in TEMP = orig T + exp(n-40) > >>where 40 is the maximum stack value > >>note that the increase depends on the original temp > >>so just by cooling the proc you can lower the damage in your computer > >>if you can keep it under 40 deg celsius it'll survive with a light > >>alzheimer effect on the address and arithmetic units > Summary: the virus stuff, processor destruct code sequences (and > monitor smoke release algorithms) are fun, but not if it causes > someone to be embarassed or to quit the list. > sorry , I didn't mean to offend or embarrass (?) anybody but this was a "high ball" (sorry if it sounds strange in english) and I had to hit it down sometimes this superstitious stuff serves a good purpose I told anybody my microlight engine runs on unleaded fuel so nobody tried to suck it 'cos anybody thinks unleaded gas can harm two-stroke engines :) maybe it's true maybe not nobody dared to try bye charley ------------------------------ From: hoss karoly Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 01:29:31 +0100 Subject: Re: Virus tom cloud wrote: >>> > >>> Does anybody know potential values for n? Does it only damage the > >>> processor for certain values of n or are all values dangerous? > > >>the bigger n the more dangereous the loop is > >>as I can remember my machine code lessons the processor temp relates > >>to n like > >>increase in TEMP = orig T + exp(n-40) > >>where 40 is the maximum stack value > >>note that the increase depends on the original temp > >>so just by cooling the proc you can lower the damage in your computer > >>if you can keep it under 40 deg celsius it'll survive with a light > >>alzheimer effect on the address and arithmetic units > Summary: the virus stuff, processor destruct code sequences (and > monitor smoke release algorithms) are fun, but not if it causes > someone to be embarassed or to quit the list. > sorry , I didn't mean to offend or embarrass (?) anybody but this was a "high ball" (sorry if it sounds strange in english) and I had to hit it down sometimes this superstitious stuff serves a good purpose I told anybody my microlight engine runs on unleaded fuel so nobody tried to suck it 'cos anybody thinks unleaded gas can harm two-stroke engines :) maybe it's true maybe not nobody dared to try bye charley ------------------------------ From: hoss karoly Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 01:29:31 +0100 Subject: Re: Virus tom cloud wrote: >>> > >>> Does anybody know potential values for n? Does it only damage the > >>> processor for certain values of n or are all values dangerous? > > >>the bigger n the more dangereous the loop is > >>as I can remember my machine code lessons the processor temp relates > >>to n like > >>increase in TEMP = orig T + exp(n-40) > >>where 40 is the maximum stack value > >>note that the increase depends on the original temp > >>so just by cooling the proc you can lower the damage in your computer > >>if you can keep it under 40 deg celsius it'll survive with a light > >>alzheimer effect on the address and arithmetic units > Summary: the virus stuff, processor destruct code sequences (and > monitor smoke release algorithms) are fun, but not if it causes > someone to be embarassed or to quit the list. > sorry , I didn't mean to offend or embarrass (?) anybody but this was a "high ball" (sorry if it sounds strange in english) and I had to hit it down sometimes this superstitious stuff serves a good purpose I told anybody my microlight engine runs on unleaded fuel so nobody tried to suck it 'cos anybody thinks unleaded gas can harm two-stroke engines :) maybe it's true maybe not nobody dared to try bye charley ------------------------------ From: pantera@xxx.com (David Doddek) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 19:41:24 -0600 Subject: Re: Need a 15lb/hr injector...hmmm. thor wrote: > 2. Does anyone have a list of smaller injectors, and/or a "el-cheapo" > type list that Western Auto will understand (ie. I need an injector > for a 1982 Ford whatzit... type list)? I have a guy who will let me > flow the injectors, but he can't deal with Bosch #'s. > >Thanks for the help! Though I don't talk much (cuz I don't know much), I >have learned alot from listening. Since no one else will tell you where to find a 15 lb/hour injector, I will. The 87 to 92 Ford LTD, Mercury Grand Marquis and Lincoln Town car have 14 ohm 15 pound injectors. I don't know the year, but the Ford Escort with a 1.6l engine has the 2.4 ohm 15 pound injectors. For a little larger, try the Mustang 5.0l (19lb) Chevy 305 tpi (22lb) GM 350 tpi (24lb) Mustang SVO turbo (35lb). Hope this helps David J. Doddek |pantera@xxx.com Owner SGD Electronics & Development Engr for Caterpillar |h 309 685-7965 Formula SAE Team Sidewinder 94-95 |w 309 578-2931 89 T-bird SC, 69 Fairlane w/SGD EFI |fx 217 428-4686 74 Pantera w/Electromotive Tec-II Twin turbos and Nitros | Hey, If you are going to go fast, go REEEAAL FAST. | ------------------------------ From: Mark Mason Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 21:23:41 -0500 Subject: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop My ECM is in closed loop mode at idle and part throttle. At wide open throttle is goes into open loop mode ( it stops reading the O2 sensor ). WHY? Is the sensor not accurate after a certain exhaust gas velocity has been reached? Can the ECM not react fast enough at the high RPMs? Help! Mark Mason. ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.au Date: Thu, 07 Nov 96 08:10:43 Subject: Re: Backfire just off idle cold try more advance Dan dzorde@xxx.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Backfire just off idle cold Author: diy_efi@xxx.edu at INTERNET Date: 11/7/96 2:51 AM I'm having a hard time programming operation during warm up. When the engine is cold and running below 2000 RPM it will backfire when the throttle is more than slightly depressed. What options do I have with ignition and mixture to cure this problem. me *************************************************************************** * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * * Staff Design Engineer Fax: (602)752-6000 * * Manager System Integration and * * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@xxx.com * * VLSI Technology, Inc. * * 8375 South River Parkway * * M/S 265 * * Tempe, Arizona 85284 * *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #337 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".