DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 8 November 1996 Volume 01 : Number 338 In this issue: Re: Injecting Water Re: Need help with Mazda EFI. Re: Virus Re: Virus Re: Need help with Mazda EFI. Chuckiee - heee's back Re: Virus Re: Virus Re: Virus Re: Virus Re: Virus Re: Virus RE: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop Re: Chuckiee - heee's back Re: Need help with Mazda EFI. Re: Need help with Mazda EFI. Re: Need help with Mazda EFI. Re: Backfire just off idle cold Re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop Bosch 4&3wire sensor Re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop Re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop Re: Bosch 4&3wire sensor Re: Bosch 4&3wire sensor Re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop RE: Chuckiee - heee's back 332 system 2 stroke injection experiences? Forwarded: Re: Bosch 4&3wire sensor RE: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: M HILL Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 09:07:08 GMT0BST Subject: Re: Injecting Water > I've heard a little about "Water Injection" Systems. > > What type of injectors are used to inject water along with fuel to boost > horsepower? > > Where might I get my hands on some? > I have read about people using windscreen washer jet pumps. Saab even use the same water in one of their experimental engines, claiming that the alcohol in the de-icer helps to cool the charge and then burns increasing power. I haven't tried it myself though, this is just what I have read. There is some information in David Vizards book on tuning A-Series engines. Martin ------------------------------ From: "R. Larson" Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 04:19:11 -0600 Subject: Re: Need help with Mazda EFI. I have tested the computer in the >car and the readings for ignition look normal, but I am pretty sure that I >am getting no spark (and I know that fuel is working because I smelled >unburned fuel after the first time I tried to start it (extended cranking). >This confuses me a bit since I didn't touch the drive electronics for that, >but such is life. > I know this probably sounds simplistic but have you actually checked the spark?. I was expermenting with a Renault and was inadvertanntly inducing noise on the ECU so that it kept the fuel relay on with the cold start injector. I flooded it good. I was just about to give up and trash the whole electronics when I finally checked that I had totally fouled the plugs. My point is to dont take anything for granted (spark. all injectors firing and input signals). Start back at square one and look for the simple things first. They are the ones that usually kick your butt. ------------------------------ From: hoss karoly Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 01:29:31 +0100 Subject: Re: Virus tom cloud wrote: >>> > >>> Does anybody know potential values for n? Does it only damage the > >>> processor for certain values of n or are all values dangerous? > > >>the bigger n the more dangereous the loop is > >>as I can remember my machine code lessons the processor temp relates > >>to n like > >>increase in TEMP = orig T + exp(n-40) > >>where 40 is the maximum stack value > >>note that the increase depends on the original temp > >>so just by cooling the proc you can lower the damage in your computer > >>if you can keep it under 40 deg celsius it'll survive with a light > >>alzheimer effect on the address and arithmetic units > Summary: the virus stuff, processor destruct code sequences (and > monitor smoke release algorithms) are fun, but not if it causes > someone to be embarassed or to quit the list. > sorry , I didn't mean to offend or embarrass (?) anybody but this was a "high ball" (sorry if it sounds strange in english) and I had to hit it down sometimes this superstitious stuff serves a good purpose I told anybody my microlight engine runs on unleaded fuel so nobody tried to suck it 'cos anybody thinks unleaded gas can harm two-stroke engines :) maybe it's true maybe not nobody dared to try bye charley ------------------------------ From: hoss karoly Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 01:29:31 +0100 Subject: Re: Virus tom cloud wrote: >>> > >>> Does anybody know potential values for n? Does it only damage the > >>> processor for certain values of n or are all values dangerous? > > >>the bigger n the more dangereous the loop is > >>as I can remember my machine code lessons the processor temp relates > >>to n like > >>increase in TEMP = orig T + exp(n-40) > >>where 40 is the maximum stack value > >>note that the increase depends on the original temp > >>so just by cooling the proc you can lower the damage in your computer > >>if you can keep it under 40 deg celsius it'll survive with a light > >>alzheimer effect on the address and arithmetic units > Summary: the virus stuff, processor destruct code sequences (and > monitor smoke release algorithms) are fun, but not if it causes > someone to be embarassed or to quit the list. > sorry , I didn't mean to offend or embarrass (?) anybody but this was a "high ball" (sorry if it sounds strange in english) and I had to hit it down sometimes this superstitious stuff serves a good purpose I told anybody my microlight engine runs on unleaded fuel so nobody tried to suck it 'cos anybody thinks unleaded gas can harm two-stroke engines :) maybe it's true maybe not nobody dared to try bye charley ------------------------------ From: Fred Miranda Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 08:15:28 -0800 Subject: Re: Need help with Mazda EFI. Good point R. The injected rotarys seem to foul plugs easily, and once done, forget about starting it. Swap plugs and see. >I know this probably sounds simplistic but have you actually checked the >spark?. I was expermenting with a Renault and was inadvertanntly inducing >noise on the ECU so that it kept the fuel relay on with the cold start >injector. I flooded it good. I was just about to give up and trash the >whole electronics when I finally checked that I had totally fouled the plugs. > >My point is to dont take anything for granted (spark. all injectors firing >and input signals). Start back at square one and look for the simple things >first. They are the ones that usually kick your butt. > > > ------------------------------ From: "Robert Harris" Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 08:17:56 -0800 Subject: Chuckiee - heee's back Won't be participating in the list for electronic ignition. Solved both my fuel and ignition problems in one fell swoop. Replacing my industrial strength big block Found On the Road Dead/5 speed granny in my RV with a small block kitty cat and 10 speed air shift. Bought whole used truck for less than overhaul on the Fix Or Repair Daily. Engine is about same size and weight as the 391 now riding off into the sunset, but the torque numbers are unbelievable, so I won't even post them - but think big - very very big. Does anyone know anything about modifying /updating/ electronic control for older diesels? Adding a turbo? Will be bi-fueling with propane - got plenty aboard so no problem. At a loss on where to go with power performance economy changes so would appreciate any pointers If the first ingredient ain't Habanero, then the rest don't matter. Robert Harris - ---------- ------------------------------ From: hoss karoly Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 01:29:31 +0100 Subject: Re: Virus tom cloud wrote: >>> > >>> Does anybody know potential values for n? Does it only damage the > >>> processor for certain values of n or are all values dangerous? > > >>the bigger n the more dangereous the loop is > >>as I can remember my machine code lessons the processor temp relates > >>to n like > >>increase in TEMP = orig T + exp(n-40) > >>where 40 is the maximum stack value > >>note that the increase depends on the original temp > >>so just by cooling the proc you can lower the damage in your computer > >>if you can keep it under 40 deg celsius it'll survive with a light > >>alzheimer effect on the address and arithmetic units > Summary: the virus stuff, processor destruct code sequences (and > monitor smoke release algorithms) are fun, but not if it causes > someone to be embarassed or to quit the list. > sorry , I didn't mean to offend or embarrass (?) anybody but this was a "high ball" (sorry if it sounds strange in english) and I had to hit it down sometimes this superstitious stuff serves a good purpose I told anybody my microlight engine runs on unleaded fuel so nobody tried to suck it 'cos anybody thinks unleaded gas can harm two-stroke engines :) maybe it's true maybe not nobody dared to try bye charley ------------------------------ From: hoss karoly Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 01:29:31 +0100 Subject: Re: Virus tom cloud wrote: >>> > >>> Does anybody know potential values for n? Does it only damage the > >>> processor for certain values of n or are all values dangerous? > > >>the bigger n the more dangereous the loop is > >>as I can remember my machine code lessons the processor temp relates > >>to n like > >>increase in TEMP = orig T + exp(n-40) > >>where 40 is the maximum stack value > >>note that the increase depends on the original temp > >>so just by cooling the proc you can lower the damage in your computer > >>if you can keep it under 40 deg celsius it'll survive with a light > >>alzheimer effect on the address and arithmetic units > Summary: the virus stuff, processor destruct code sequences (and > monitor smoke release algorithms) are fun, but not if it causes > someone to be embarassed or to quit the list. > sorry , I didn't mean to offend or embarrass (?) anybody but this was a "high ball" (sorry if it sounds strange in english) and I had to hit it down sometimes this superstitious stuff serves a good purpose I told anybody my microlight engine runs on unleaded fuel so nobody tried to suck it 'cos anybody thinks unleaded gas can harm two-stroke engines :) maybe it's true maybe not nobody dared to try bye charley ------------------------------ From: hoss karoly Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 01:29:31 +0100 Subject: Re: Virus tom cloud wrote: >>> > >>> Does anybody know potential values for n? Does it only damage the > >>> processor for certain values of n or are all values dangerous? > > >>the bigger n the more dangereous the loop is > >>as I can remember my machine code lessons the processor temp relates > >>to n like > >>increase in TEMP = orig T + exp(n-40) > >>where 40 is the maximum stack value > >>note that the increase depends on the original temp > >>so just by cooling the proc you can lower the damage in your computer > >>if you can keep it under 40 deg celsius it'll survive with a light > >>alzheimer effect on the address and arithmetic units > Summary: the virus stuff, processor destruct code sequences (and > monitor smoke release algorithms) are fun, but not if it causes > someone to be embarassed or to quit the list. > sorry , I didn't mean to offend or embarrass (?) anybody but this was a "high ball" (sorry if it sounds strange in english) and I had to hit it down sometimes this superstitious stuff serves a good purpose I told anybody my microlight engine runs on unleaded fuel so nobody tried to suck it 'cos anybody thinks unleaded gas can harm two-stroke engines :) maybe it's true maybe not nobody dared to try bye charley ------------------------------ From: hoss karoly Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 01:29:31 +0100 Subject: Re: Virus tom cloud wrote: >>> > >>> Does anybody know potential values for n? Does it only damage the > >>> processor for certain values of n or are all values dangerous? > > >>the bigger n the more dangereous the loop is > >>as I can remember my machine code lessons the processor temp relates > >>to n like > >>increase in TEMP = orig T + exp(n-40) > >>where 40 is the maximum stack value > >>note that the increase depends on the original temp > >>so just by cooling the proc you can lower the damage in your computer > >>if you can keep it under 40 deg celsius it'll survive with a light > >>alzheimer effect on the address and arithmetic units > Summary: the virus stuff, processor destruct code sequences (and > monitor smoke release algorithms) are fun, but not if it causes > someone to be embarassed or to quit the list. > sorry , I didn't mean to offend or embarrass (?) anybody but this was a "high ball" (sorry if it sounds strange in english) and I had to hit it down sometimes this superstitious stuff serves a good purpose I told anybody my microlight engine runs on unleaded fuel so nobody tried to suck it 'cos anybody thinks unleaded gas can harm two-stroke engines :) maybe it's true maybe not nobody dared to try bye charley ------------------------------ From: hoss karoly Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 01:29:31 +0100 Subject: Re: Virus tom cloud wrote: >>> > >>> Does anybody know potential values for n? Does it only damage the > >>> processor for certain values of n or are all values dangerous? > > >>the bigger n the more dangereous the loop is > >>as I can remember my machine code lessons the processor temp relates > >>to n like > >>increase in TEMP = orig T + exp(n-40) > >>where 40 is the maximum stack value > >>note that the increase depends on the original temp > >>so just by cooling the proc you can lower the damage in your computer > >>if you can keep it under 40 deg celsius it'll survive with a light > >>alzheimer effect on the address and arithmetic units > Summary: the virus stuff, processor destruct code sequences (and > monitor smoke release algorithms) are fun, but not if it causes > someone to be embarassed or to quit the list. > sorry , I didn't mean to offend or embarrass (?) anybody but this was a "high ball" (sorry if it sounds strange in english) and I had to hit it down sometimes this superstitious stuff serves a good purpose I told anybody my microlight engine runs on unleaded fuel so nobody tried to suck it 'cos anybody thinks unleaded gas can harm two-stroke engines :) maybe it's true maybe not nobody dared to try bye charley ------------------------------ From: hoss karoly Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 01:29:31 +0100 Subject: Re: Virus tom cloud wrote: >>> > >>> Does anybody know potential values for n? Does it only damage the > >>> processor for certain values of n or are all values dangerous? > > >>the bigger n the more dangereous the loop is > >>as I can remember my machine code lessons the processor temp relates > >>to n like > >>increase in TEMP = orig T + exp(n-40) > >>where 40 is the maximum stack value > >>note that the increase depends on the original temp > >>so just by cooling the proc you can lower the damage in your computer > >>if you can keep it under 40 deg celsius it'll survive with a light > >>alzheimer effect on the address and arithmetic units > Summary: the virus stuff, processor destruct code sequences (and > monitor smoke release algorithms) are fun, but not if it causes > someone to be embarassed or to quit the list. > sorry , I didn't mean to offend or embarrass (?) anybody but this was a "high ball" (sorry if it sounds strange in english) and I had to hit it down sometimes this superstitious stuff serves a good purpose I told anybody my microlight engine runs on unleaded fuel so nobody tried to suck it 'cos anybody thinks unleaded gas can harm two-stroke engines :) maybe it's true maybe not nobody dared to try bye charley ------------------------------ From: Robert McElroy Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 10:37:18 -0600 Subject: RE: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop Well, I have been listening for awhile, and have read many of the = previous posts about O2 sensors, so I'll add my opinion as long as you = remember it is worth only as much as you paid for it. Most O2 sensors are accurate over only a limited range of A/F ratios = (actually they are very nonlinear once you start moving away from = stoich., and thus it becomes more difficult to get an accurate value for = A/F ratio.) When your engine is accelerating hard (many ways to sense = this, one indication of which is WOT), the actual A/F ratio is closer to = (actual A/F ratio varies greatly) 13:1 than 14.7:1 (stoich.) Besides, = the primary use of an O2 sensor (in most of the systems that I have = examined) is to provide better part-throttle gas mileage and reduce = part-throttle and idle emissions that occur due to non-stoichiometric = A/F ratios (CO, NOx, etc.) The reasoning is that most street engines are at idle and part-throttle = for the overwhelming majority of their operation. Therefore, cleaning = up the part-throttle and idle emissions and improving the part-throttle = gas mileage would yield the greatest benefit. My ECM is in closed loop mode at idle and part throttle. At wide open throttle is goes into open loop mode ( it stops reading the O2 sensor ). = WHY? Mark Mason. ------------------------------ From: "Dan J. Declerck" Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 11:15:27 -0600 Subject: Re: Chuckiee - heee's back On Nov 7, 8:17am, Robert Harris wrote: > Subject: Chuckiee - heee's back > Won't be participating in the list for electronic ignition. Solved both my > fuel > and ignition problems in one fell swoop. > > Replacing my industrial strength big block Found On the Road Dead/5 speed > granny in my RV with a small block kitty cat and 10 speed air shift. > Bought > whole used truck for less than overhaul on the Fix Or Repair Daily. Engine > is > about same size and weight as the 391 now riding off into the sunset, but > the torque numbers are unbelievable, so I won't even post them - but think > big - very very big. This info is gleaned from my neighbor, who is a long-haul truck driver/Indepenedent. One note about diesel truck engines of older model trucks: To repair, you tend to need easy access to the engine from many directions. His 84 Peterbuilt is a marvel when it comes to access, as the whole front clip pulls away to give easy reach to the Turbocharger, air-pump, etc. Repairs are not as cheap as Gas-engine RV's. His last clutch cost $1600. He'll need to replace one of the air-shifts, as they are now leaking air. For longevity, diesel is better, He has completely re-built the Cummins in his truck so many times, he cannot remember. A Rebuild usually lasts 400,000 miles. The frame on this truck has nearly 2 million miles, and shows no signs of fatigue. His biggest problem is fuel economy, many new truck designs get 2 more mpg, and he has to compete with that, which can be difficult. > Does anyone know anything about modifying /updating/ electronic control for > older diesels? Adding a turbo? Will be bi-fueling with propane - got > plenty > aboard so no problem. At a loss on where to go with power performance > economy changes so would appreciate any pointers > > > If the first ingredient ain't Habanero, then the rest don't matter. > Robert Harris > > > ---------- > >-- End of excerpt from Robert Harris - -- => Dan DeClerck | EMAIL: declrckd@xxx.com <= => Motorola Cellular CSD | <= =>"The truth to CDMA... is spreading" | Phone: (847) 632-4596 <= - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "Gregory Chan" Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 12:36:24 EDT Subject: Re: Need help with Mazda EFI. > > Good point R. > The injected rotarys seem to foul plugs easily, and once done, forget about > starting it. Swap plugs and see. > > >I know this probably sounds simplistic but have you actually checked the > >spark?. I was expermenting with a Renault and was inadvertanntly inducing > >noise on the ECU so that it kept the fuel relay on with the cold start > >injector. I flooded it good. I was just about to give up and trash the > >whole electronics when I finally checked that I had totally fouled the plugs. > > I've seen my buddy remove a link in the electrics near the strut tower on the drivers side that I believe cuts power to the fuel system so that a flooded engine can be re-started. gchan@xxx.ca ------------------------------ From: Tuck Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 13:51:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Need help with Mazda EFI. At 04:19 11/7/96 -0600, you wrote: >I know this probably sounds simplistic but have you actually checked the >spark?. I was expermenting with a Renault and was inadvertanntly inducing >noise on the ECU so that it kept the fuel relay on with the cold start >injector. I flooded it good. I was just about to give up and trash the >whole electronics when I finally checked that I had totally fouled the plugs. Yeah, I strapped the timing light onto each of the three coils to check for spark and didn't get any on any of the coils. All of the switching transistors for firing the injectors are run by T304 on the board (that Toshiba Japan IC I asked about), and I checked the transistors last night (sort of) and it appears that they are ok. That pretty much only leaves the IC that drives them. >My point is to dont take anything for granted (spark. all injectors firing >and input signals). Start back at square one and look for the simple things >first. They are the ones that usually kick your butt. I am sure the injectors are firing because I can smell fuel, I also just had them blueprinted by Marren a thousand miles ago, so I don't suspect injector failure. FWIW, drive voltage to the injectors is correct also. All the input signals are correct, from the crank angle sensor, the throttle position sensor, and the MAF as far as I can tell. Justin "Tuck" Cordesman SOLID BRASS-> FEAR NOTHING. There is a reason the first place trophy looks so much better than second and third. SECOND AND THIRD SUCK. ------------------------------ From: Tuck Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 14:39:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Need help with Mazda EFI. At 12:36 11/7/96 EDT, you wrote: > I've seen my buddy remove a link in the electrics near the strut >tower on the drivers side that I believe cuts power to the fuel >system so that a flooded engine can be re-started. I don't want to be coarse, but I wrote the FAQ for the second generation cars, so I am quite familiar with solving flooding problems, leaking injectors, and the like. Since I didn't have any problems with ignition or injection before I removed the ECU, and now I do, I think I can be pretty confident in saying that the ECU is the problem, I just need to trace a replacement for that Toshiba I mentioned in an earlier message. Justin "Tuck" Cordesman SOLID BRASS-> FEAR NOTHING. There is a reason the first place trophy looks so much better than second and third. SECOND AND THIRD SUCK. ------------------------------ From: Mark Eidson Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 13:22:26 -0700 Subject: Re: Backfire just off idle cold That seems to do the trick. me At 08:10 AM 11/7/96, you wrote: > > try more advance > > Dan dzorde@xxx.au > > >______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ >Subject: Backfire just off idle cold >Author: diy_efi@xxx.edu at INTERNET >Date: 11/7/96 2:51 AM > > >I'm having a hard time programming operation during warm up. When the >engine is cold and running below 2000 RPM it will backfire when the throttle >is more than slightly depressed. What options do I have with ignition and >mixture to cure this problem. me >*************************************************************************** >* Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * >* Staff Design Engineer Fax: (602)752-6000 * >* Manager System Integration and * >* Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@xxx.com * >* VLSI Technology, Inc. * >* 8375 South River Parkway * >* M/S 265 * >* Tempe, Arizona 85284 * >*************************************************************************** > > > *************************************************************************** * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * * Staff Design Engineer Fax: (602)752-6000 * * Manager System Integration and * * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@xxx.com * * VLSI Technology, Inc. * * 8375 South River Parkway * * M/S 265 * * Tempe, Arizona 85284 * *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Doug Robson Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 07:23:41 +1100 Subject: Re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop Robert McElroy wrote: > > Well, I have been listening for awhile, and have read many of the previous posts about O2 sensors, so I'll add my opinion as long as you remember it is worth only as much as you paid for it. > > > > The reasoning is that most street engines are at idle and part-throttle for the overwhelming majority of their operation. Therefore, cleaning up the part-throttle and idle emissions and improving the part-throttle gas mileage would yield the greatest benefit. > > My ECM is in closed loop mode at idle and part throttle. At wide open > throttle is goes into open loop mode ( it stops reading the O2 sensor ). > > WHY? > > Mark Mason. This is true most are narrow unless you buy the motorsprt version for 350 AUD which does .6 to 1,2 lambda that i use in my race car Autronic. Motec uses same - -- |===============================================================| | When I die, | | I want to go in my sleep, like my grandfather, | | not screaming like the passengers in his car. | |---------------------------------------------------------------| | Doug Robson (H) mailto:doug@xxx.au | | (W) mailto:Doug.Robson@xxx.com | | Sydney, Australia http://www.cia.com.au/doug | |---------------------------------------------------------------| | Club Car Racing Register of NSW | Thank God | | 1992/93 Under 2 litre State Champion | for | | http://www.cia.com.au/doug/ccrrnsw.html | Gravity | |===============================================================| ------------------------------ From: Doug Robson Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 07:19:27 +1100 Subject: Bosch 4&3wire sensor Hi in a 4 wire O2 sensor you have sensor gnd, earth, heater =ve, and signal in a 3 wire heated is it common ground, and there fore will it upset my autronic SMC if i use the chassis ground effectively for both for this function. if i then conect sensor ground to chassis will this upset things???? have plenty of 3 wire ones free, 4 wire ones 350 dollars - -- |===============================================================| | When I die, | | I want to go in my sleep, like my grandfather, | | not screaming like the passengers in his car. | |---------------------------------------------------------------| | Doug Robson (H) mailto:doug@xxx.au | | (W) mailto:Doug.Robson@xxx.com | | Sydney, Australia http://www.cia.com.au/doug | |---------------------------------------------------------------| | Club Car Racing Register of NSW | Thank God | | 1992/93 Under 2 litre State Champion | for | | http://www.cia.com.au/doug/ccrrnsw.html | Gravity | |===============================================================| ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 16:24:07 -0600 Subject: Re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop >My ECM is in closed loop mode at idle and part throttle. At wide open >throttle is goes into open loop mode ( it stops reading the O2 sensor ). > >WHY? > >Is the sensor not accurate after a certain exhaust gas velocity has been >reached? Can the ECM not react fast enough at the high RPMs? Help! > > >Mark Mason. That's SOP (standard operating procedure). Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 16:49:51 -0600 Subject: Re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop my previous reply was probably too terse (SOP) -- Every EFI I have studied goes open loop in WOT (or near it). I'm told it's because you want a richer mixture for max power and, since it's only temporary, closed loop (i.e. EGO) operation is not necessary. Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: Fred Miranda Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 15:28:51 -0800 Subject: Re: Bosch 4&3wire sensor Doug, NTK makes low buck 4 wire units. Mitsu Eclipses use them. Fred At 07:19 AM 11/8/96 +1100, you wrote: >Hi in a 4 wire O2 sensor you have sensor gnd, earth, heater =ve, and >signal >in a 3 wire heated is it common ground, and there fore will it upset my >autronic SMC if i use the chassis ground effectively for both for this >function. if i then conect sensor ground to chassis will this upset >things???? > >have plenty of 3 wire ones free, 4 wire ones 350 dollars > > >-- >|===============================================================| >| When I die, | >| I want to go in my sleep, like my grandfather, | >| not screaming like the passengers in his car. | >|---------------------------------------------------------------| >| Doug Robson (H) mailto:doug@xxx.au | >| (W) mailto:Doug.Robson@xxx.com | >| Sydney, Australia http://www.cia.com.au/doug | >|---------------------------------------------------------------| >| Club Car Racing Register of NSW | Thank God | >| 1992/93 Under 2 litre State Champion | for | >| http://www.cia.com.au/doug/ccrrnsw.html | Gravity | >|===============================================================| > > ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 17:31:13 -0600 Subject: Re: Bosch 4&3wire sensor >Hi in a 4 wire O2 sensor you have sensor gnd, earth, heater =ve, and >signal >in a 3 wire heated is it common ground, and there fore will it upset my >autronic SMC if i use the chassis ground effectively for both for this >function. if i then conect sensor ground to chassis will this upset >things???? > >have plenty of 3 wire ones free, 4 wire ones 350 dollars 4-wire sensor used on '91 F-150. ~ $90 from Ford. Found it available on net for ~ $50. I'll get name if you want it. Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: Mark Mason Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 19:06:28 -0500 Subject: Re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop Doug Robson wrote: > This is true most are narrow unless you buy the motorsprt version for > 350 AUD which does .6 to 1,2 lambda > that i use in my race car Autronic. Motec uses same > Can you tell me the manufacturer of this O2 sensor and its model number? Are there any distributors(for the O2 sensor) in Canada or the USA? Thanks for your help. ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 18:21:26 -0000 Subject: RE: Chuckiee - heee's back - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBCD0A.AADE8F20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I know didly about diesels and turbos, but I got a friend working for = Lucas diesels in the development area... bet he'd know. I'll ask him if = I can hand out his mail address for ya. Mark - ---------- From: Robert Harris[SMTP:bob@xxx.com] Sent: 07 November 1996 16:17 To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Chuckiee - heee's back Won't be participating in the list for electronic ignition. Solved both = my fuel=20 and ignition problems in one fell swoop. Replacing my industrial strength big block Found On the Road Dead/5 = speed=20 granny in my RV with a small block kitty cat and 10 speed air shift.=20 Bought whole used truck for less than overhaul on the Fix Or Repair Daily. = Engine is about same size and weight as the 391 now riding off into the sunset, = but the torque numbers are unbelievable, so I won't even post them - but = think big - very very big. Does anyone know anything about modifying /updating/ electronic control = for older diesels? Adding a turbo? Will be bi-fueling with propane - got plenty=20 aboard so no problem. At a loss on where to go with power performance economy changes so would appreciate any pointers If the first ingredient ain't Habanero, then the rest don't matter. 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Anyone on the list have experience of single or multi cylinder 2 stroke injection form a practical point of view? Problems that arise on the theoretical level are passing an oil / fuel mix (viscosity?) through a standard injector, and monitoring an oily exhaust with a lamda sensor. Finally,where to inject,on both rotary valved and reed valved engines? - -- Chris Wilson Thu, 07 Nov 1996 23:29 GMT Gatesgarth Racing Developments Gatley,Cheshire,U.K. Race Car Preparation and Development http://195.102.33.46/~gategart mailto:chris@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: RABBITT_Andrew@xxx.au Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 09:07:36 est Subject: Forwarded: Re: Bosch 4&3wire sensor check out the price on a Ford Mondeo HEGO, they're 4-wire jobs. On the three-wire sensors, I'd guess (FWIW) that the heater is grounded through the exhaust pipe, the other two wires are a differential (floating) signal. The fourth wire is just a ground for the heater. From: (Fred Miranda) fcmtb@xxx.com:smtp Date: ## 11/07/96 15:28 ## Doug, NTK makes low buck 4 wire units. Mitsu Eclipses use them. Fred At 07:19 AM 11/8/96 +1100, you wrote: >Hi in a 4 wire O2 sensor you have sensor gnd, earth, heater =ve, and >signal >in a 3 wire heated is it common ground, and there fore will it upset my >autronic SMC if i use the chassis ground effectively for both for this >function. if i then conect sensor ground to chassis will this upset >things???? > >have plenty of 3 wire ones free, 4 wire ones 350 dollars > > >-- >|===============================================================| >| When I die, | >| I want to go in my sleep, like my grandfather, | >| not screaming like the passengers in his car. | >|---------------------------------------------------------------| >| Doug Robson (H) mailto:doug@xxx.au | >| (W) mailto:Doug.Robson@xxx.com | >| Sydney, Australia http://www.cia.com.au/doug | >|---------------------------------------------------------------| >| Club Car Racing Register of NSW | Thank God | >| 1992/93 Under 2 litre State Champion | for | >| http://www.cia.com.au/doug/ccrrnsw.html | Gravity | >|=== ------------------------------ From: RABBITT_Andrew@xxx.au Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 08:59:48 est Subject: RE: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop >My ECM is in closed loop mode at idle and part throttle. At wide open >throttle is goes into open loop mode ( it stops reading the O2 sensor > > >WHY? > The reason that closed-loop A/F ratio control was introduced was almost entirely emissions control related. Three-way catalytic conversion only operates in an extremely narrow A/F window. This is because you are oxidising HC and CO (so you need excess O2 or another oxidising agent) and reducing NOx (so you need a reducing agent) simultaneously. The only point where you can get this to happen is at stoich A/F, or more correctly by perturbating the A/F around stoich. When you go to WOT, no one seems to care how much junk comes out of the exhaust, therefore emissions control is thrown out the window and the calibration goes rich for best power. You never see WOT in a emissions drive cycle (to date), therefore it doesn't impact on the emissions certification. I think you'll be hard-pressed to find a production car with a EGO but no TWC, they go hand in hand. It has next to nothing to do with fuel consumption since you want to go lean to improve this. Andrew Rabbitt ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #338 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".