DIY_EFI Digest Saturday, 9 November 1996 Volume 01 : Number 340 In this issue: Re: Need help with Mazda EFI. Re: 2 stroke injection experiences? RE: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop Re: 332 again Re: 4 wire sensors Re: 2 Stroke Injection Re: 332 web pages RE: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop Re: 2 Stroke Injection Re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop RE: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop Re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop Re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop Micro Dynamics RE: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mark Bjork Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 10:38:44 -0800 Subject: Re: Need help with Mazda EFI. Tuck wrote: > > At 04:19 11/7/96 -0600, you wrote: > > >I know this probably sounds simplistic but have you actually checked the > >spark?. I was expermenting with a Renault and was inadvertanntly inducing > >noise on the ECU so that it kept the fuel relay on with the cold start > >injector. I flooded it good. I was just about to give up and trash the > >whole electronics when I finally checked that I had totally fouled the plugs. > > Yeah, I strapped the timing light onto each of the three coils to check for > spark and didn't get any on any of the coils. All of the switching > transistors for firing the injectors are run by T304 on the board (that > Toshiba Japan IC I asked about), and I checked the transistors last night > (sort of) and it appears that they are ok. That pretty much only leaves the > IC that drives them. > > >My point is to dont take anything for granted (spark. all injectors firing > >and input signals). Start back at square one and look for the simple things > >first. They are the ones that usually kick your butt. > > I am sure the injectors are firing because I can smell fuel, I also just had > them blueprinted by Marren a thousand miles ago, so I don't suspect injector > failure. FWIW, drive voltage to the injectors is correct also. All the > input signals are correct, from the crank angle sensor, the throttle > position sensor, and the MAF as far as I can tell. > > Justin "Tuck" Cordesman > SOLID BRASS-> FEAR NOTHING. > > There is a reason the first place trophy looks so much better than second > and third. > SECOND AND THIRD SUCK. As someone before me mentioned, CHECK THE PLUGS. I recently had to replace a head on a Ford V-6, and the heads I replaced them with had been hot-tanked, with the plugs in. Well, this is a fuel injected, ecm controlled (both ignition & fuel) engine. After struggling to get all the controls back on the engine, and to the point of start-up, I found there was NO SPARK AT THE PLUGS- AT ALL! Well, after putting a inductive timing light on each of the 6 plug wires, I was convinced that I installed the distributor incorrectly. After double checking this, and finding nothing wrong, I disconnected the coil wire (remote coil) to the cap, and stuck a old used sparkplug in the cap end of the coil wire. Walla, SPARK. To make a long story shorter, it turns out that hot tanking the Bosch Platinum plugs caused them to short internally, and this would prevent any spark at the electrodes, AND, Prevented the timing light from firing. I have seen plugs on a two-stroke foul in this same manner when flooded from unburned fuel. Just my $.02, Mark snomo@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 11:33:08 -0600 Subject: Re: 2 stroke injection experiences? >Anyone on the list have experience of single or multi cylinder 2 stroke >injection form a practical point of view? > >Problems that arise on the theoretical level are passing an oil / fuel mix >(viscosity?) through a standard injector, and monitoring an oily exhaust with >a lamda sensor. > >Finally,where to inject,on both rotary valved and reed valved engines? > I have a freind that designed an EFI system for competition jet ski engines -- been a while and he says hes forgotten lots of the details, but I could ask him questions for you. I do remember that he said (they were blowing it) they had a real prob with the mixture blowing right through the cylinder straight into the exhaust due to overlap of intake/exhaust "valves". Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 11:35:41 -0600 Subject: RE: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop [ snip ] >I think you'll be hard-pressed to find a production car with a EGO but >no TWC, they go hand in hand. It has next to nothing to do with fuel >consumption since you want to go lean to improve this. > >Andrew Rabbitt Okay, Andy, what's "TWC" ?? Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: derek_deeter@xxx.COM (Derek Deeter) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 18:06:56 GMT Subject: Re: 332 again > > or if ya can remember the alternate sight the holds it, let me know, or > if you would like me to put another copy on keg.zymurgy.org, also let me > know (but I can only do that if I can get the files!) > > Mark Hi Mark, The mirror site is at: http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/mirror The original site is at: http://www.iris.swin.edu.au/~aden/efi332/ which is probably the one you can't get to. I can get to both. I tossed your other mail - if you can't get to either site, let me know, and I'll try to access and email you those files. - -- Derek Deeter derek_deeter@xxx.com Mentor Graphics Corp. (503) 685-7916 8005 S.W. Boeckman Rd., Wilsonville, OR 97070-7777 ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 12:11:56 -0600 Subject: Re: 4 wire sensors >Tom, > >Regarding the following: > >>4-wire sensor used on '91 F-150. ~ $90 from Ford. Found it >>available on net for ~ $50. I'll get name if you want it. > >Please do publish the source. Aren't all engineers tightwads? > > Matt >-- >Matthew D. Sale, IC Development Engineer, Delco Electronics Corp. >msale@xxx.com/~msale >'69 Mustang 351W 5-spd (13.656@103MPH using cave-man technology ======================= COPY OF RESPONSES ==================== Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 17:44:03 -0400 From: Partlink@xxx.com To: cloud@xxx.edu Subject: Re: catalog - quote Part #1060 $38.01 This is our 4 wire oxygen sensor. You can e-mail your order or call at 1-800-347-2702. We charge $5.00 S/H on orders under $100.00 and we pay the freight for orders above $100.00. We except Visa/Mastercard/COD/or check in advance. Any questions or concerns let us know! Thanks! Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 11:12:16 -0400 From: Partlink@xxx.com To: cloud@xxx.edu (tomcloud) Subject: Oxygen Sensors The oxygen sensor (part # 1060) is manufactured by NGK which also supplies that oxygen sensor to the Original Equipment dealers so this sensor should be the replacement. =========================== Hope this helps. Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: Mike Grace Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 09:50:07 -0800 Subject: Re: 2 Stroke Injection Chris Wilson wrote: "Problems that arise on the theoretical level are passing an oil / fuel mix (viscosity?) through a standard injector, and monitoring an oily exhaust with a lamda sensor." Check out the new Bimota BB500 with the revolutionary BMW 500cc direct-injection 2-stroke engine. Sport Rider mag. quoted engineers as saying it's as clean as a 4-stroke (as in it will pass CA M/C emissions!). I seem to remember it uses reed valve induction. I wonder how they keep the oil in the case? On a related note: What's up with Orbital Engine's direct 2-stroke injection? Mike Grace Santa Barbara, CA ------------------------------ From: fridman@xxx.ca (Robert Fridman) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 12:13:08 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: 332 web pages I added the mirrored site of the EFI332 web site to the diy_efi web page (). I also added a link to the diy_efi article archive search engine. RF. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 83 R100 DoD 749 Robert Fridman 84 320i fridman@xxx.ca . ------------------------------ From: Anthony Tsakiris Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 14:12:28 -0500 Subject: RE: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop Probably "TWC" means "three way catalyst." A. Tsakiris begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(AX3`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@xxx.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`9 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````8P`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(P```&1I>5]E M9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``$P`0```"4````G9&EY7V5F:4!C;W5L;VUB+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=2<``````@$+, $````H````4TU44#I$25E?149)0$-/54Q/34(N14Y' M+D](24\M4U1!5$4N1415``,``#D`````"P! .@$````"`?8/`0````0````` M```"VDT!!( !`!X```!213H@3S(@4V5N,P1&$W,1$1&U,2 (5=T"@S0#Q@<3`H!]"H (SQ\)V0* "H$- ML0M@;F !B(B1'1H M"=$@xxx.80&0'/ 4`"XB"H4?/ !!+B!4 Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 15:01:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: 2 Stroke Injection On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Mike Grace wrote: > Check out the new Bimota BB500 with the revolutionary BMW 500cc > direct-injection 2-stroke engine. Sport Rider mag. quoted engineers as > saying it's as clean as a 4-stroke (as in it will pass CA M/C emissions!). > I seem to remember it uses reed valve induction. I wonder how they keep the > oil in the case? The Bimota BB500 uses an engine designed by Bimota; a first for the small italian firm. The design was originally to be used in Grand Prix racing, but Bimota scrapped that idea as too costly. It uses reed valve induction, but the fuel is directly injected into the combustion chamber. The cylinder jugs have mounting bosses for injectors which pass through the transfer ports. The fuel is sprayed directly on the piston crown by two injectors per cylinder. This helps with the low speed mixture as well as cooling the piston, which have a tendency to melt in large-bore high-horsepower two strokes. The fuel injectors were supplied by Weber and were originally developed by Weber for Formula 1 racing and it's 17,000 rpm redlines. The engine is a V-twin using two counterrotating cranks, riding in roller bearings (I think). Oil is pumped in very small quantities to the bearings. Other than the fuel injection, the engine is basically a conventional high-horsepower two stroke. The crankcase is used to pump air into the cylinder, just like your typical motorcross dirt bike. The bike makes 110hp, weighs about 300 lb., and will be emissions legal in all 50 states, supposedly with plenty of room to spare. They'll be coming to a dealer near you in 1997. If you haven't guessed by now, I'm a motorcycle junkie. :-) Michael T. Kasimirsky ----> mtk@xxx.edu Days: Staff Engineer or mk4u@xxx.edu ASTM Test Monitoring Center Phi Gamma Delta, Nights: 1992 Suzuki GSX-R750 Pilot NRA Life Member, AMA Member 1991 Suzuki GSF400 Bandit Mechanic DoD #1848 ------------------------------ From: Jody Shapiro Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 15:13:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop Tom Cloud wrote: > >I think you'll be hard-pressed to find a production car with a EGO but > >no TWC, they go hand in hand. It has next to nothing to do with fuel > >consumption since you want to go lean to improve this. > > > >Andrew Rabbitt > > Okay, Andy, what's "TWC" ?? Could b wrong here, but I think he's refering to: Three Way Catalyst (a catalytic converter that takes care of HC, NOx, and COx) - -Jody ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 15:00:22 -0600 Subject: RE: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop > >Probably "TWC" means "three way catalyst." > > >A. Tsakiris > >begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT >M>)\^(AX3`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` >M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@xxx.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ Ya' know, I've never figgered out what this encoded message stuff is all about -- is some neat porno stuff I'm missing?? Wazzitmean?? Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: Mark Mason Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 18:42:59 -0500 Subject: Re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop RABBITT_Andrew@xxx.au wrote: > The reason that closed-loop A/F ratio control was introduced was > almost entirely emissions control related. Three-way catalytic > conversion only operates in an extremely narrow A/F window. This is > because you are oxidising HC and CO (so you need excess O2 or another > oxidising agent) and reducing NOx (so you need a reducing agent) > simultaneously. > When you go to WOT, no one seems to care how much junk comes out of > the exhaust, therefore emissions control is thrown out the window and > the calibration goes rich for best power. You never see WOT in a > emissions drive cycle (to date), therefore it doesn't impact on the > emissions certification. > Would it not be advantageous for the ECM to be in closed loop mode if the O2 voltage vs. A/F was linear and the ECM regulated the A/F ratio at WOT to 13:1 ish? How do the OEM or aftermarket ECMs calculate/measurem what the WOT injector pulse width should be for peak power? Thanks for your help Andrew! Mark Mason ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 19:14:04 -0600 Subject: Re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop >Would it not be advantageous for the ECM to be in closed loop mode if >the O2 voltage vs. A/F was linear and the ECM regulated the A/F ratio at >WOT to 13:1 ish? yeah, but it isn't and it won't >How do the OEM or aftermarket ECMs calculate/measurem what the WOT >injector pulse width should be for peak power? I don't know for sure, but some calculation has to be made (is it basically in speed-density mode ??? at WOT ???) Clearly, if it's already speed-density, then it just goes with whatever calcs or maps are set up for it. If it's MAF, then I guess it just has a little more data (i.e. not EGO) to use to calc actual fuel requirements. Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: DRM Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 22:58:45 -0800 Subject: Micro Dynamics Does anyone have any experience with the English Micro-Dynamics EFI. I believe they are out of business but I am contemplating purchase of a used system for a V6 Alfa and wanted some opinion(s). Really want to get rid of the AFM and I understand this one only has three inputs, Throttle Position, MAP and 02 sensor. Thanks... ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 00:00:18 -0800 Subject: RE: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop Don't get your hopes up, it is a lame thing that Microsoft Mail does. I think it gets confused with this complicated internet thing... Sandy At 03:00 PM 11/8/96 -0600, you wrote: >> >>Probably "TWC" means "three way catalyst." >> >> >>A. Tsakiris >> >>begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT >>M>)\^(AX3`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` >>M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@xxx.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ > >Ya' know, I've never figgered out what this encoded message >stuff is all about -- is some neat porno stuff I'm missing?? > >Wazzitmean?? > > >Tom Cloud > > ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #340 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".