DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, 14 November 1996 Volume 01 : Number 345 In this issue: Re: Electrohydraulic Camless Valves Re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop Re: OBDII Specs? Re: Electrohydraulic Camless Valves RE: Electrohydraulic Camless Valves Re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop RE: Source for Webber style FI manifolds? Re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop Re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop Re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop Re: ECM code in oem applications Re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop Re: Electrohydraulic Camless Valves re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop Re: ECM code in oem applications Re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop Re: Source for Webber style FI manifolds? Re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop Re: Electrohydraulic Camless Valves Re: Injector Inductance See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Hans Hintermaier" Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 12:08:23 MET Subject: Re: Electrohydraulic Camless Valves > From: jac@xxx.us Date: Electrohydraulic Camless Valves > The article claims they can operate 16 valves with 125 watts plus some > hydraulic power.. The concept is elegant. My complements to the > designers. With a small electric blower on the intake manifold they > should be able to do away with the electric starter, No cam shaft > or gearing is needed. The battery size can be reduced. Everyone > should find a copy of this article. I bet we will see more of > this in the future. john carroll Have a look at Zoche's Aerodiesel Webpage. It runs without valves (Two stroke) and uses the supercharger as pneumatic starter. http://193.26.97.194 Hans mailto:hiha@xxx.de Munich / Germany ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:25:01 -0600 Subject: Re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop [ snip ] > Now I was under the impression this was because of the O2 sensor > temperature (and the temp effect on O2 sensor volts), not because of a > different desired AFR.... The sensor is not very useful very far from > stoich, so I don't think trying to stay in closed loop would buy you > anything. [ snip s'more ] I recently did some digging into O2 sensors, reading research and SAE papers. From what I saw, O2 sensors, though very non-linear, are repeatable and do give meaningful results off stoich. The argument was made on this group that exhaust byproducts other than O2, CO2, and H2O skewed the output making the reading off stoich meaningless. The stuff I read did not address this. It did say that, off stoich, the temp of the sensor changed the reading (i.e. calibration), so it would not be accurate unless the temp of the sensor were factored into the measurement. Now, Todd K. says that he regularly uses the EGO to help him tune his vehicles (that is what you said, isn't it, Todd?), and I faithfully watch the digital readout from mine when I tune my Bronco -- but I'm by no means an authority. I just play, but it seems to me to give "useful" readings off stoich. In other words, I feel that I can set my engine to give an EGO reading of about .8 volts or so for power and maybe .1 to .2 for economy. Flame on. Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: "Mike Fahrion" Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 08:23:55 +0000 Subject: Re: OBDII Specs? > > Is there a nettable place that lists the obd-II specs? Wondering how > hard it would be to add the logging/whatever OBDII might provide... I don't know about net availability, but I believe that SAE HS-3000 is the document that contains the collection of specs that make up OBDII. Its about 200 pages and if I recall was fairly cheap from SAE (check out their web site). I would email someone there for confirmation that it is what you want before purchasing though. The preface mentions an effort by ISO to create a parallel spec, which leads me to think it won't be available at no cost (past experience) although you'd think since a gov agency is involved.... Looks like a lot of potential in OBDII for DYI'ers. - -mike mfahrion@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 08:23:22 -0600 Subject: Re: Electrohydraulic Camless Valves > > >There was a thread a few months ago about electrically controlled valves. > > >The November 7 issue of MACHINE DESIGN magazine has an article about Ford's efforts in that direction. The article claims they can operate 16 valves with 125 watts plus some hydraulic power.. > >The concept is elegant. My complements to the designers. > >With a small electric blower on the intake manifold they should be able to do away with the electric starter, No cam shaft or gearing is needed. The battery size can be reduced. How does that do away with the starter ? Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: Anthony Tsakiris Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 12:00:55 -0500 Subject: RE: Electrohydraulic Camless Valves >With a small electric blower on the intake manifold they should be able to do away with the electric starter, No cam shaft or gearing is needed. The battery size can be reduced. How does that do away with the starter ? Presumably, it would not be necessary to rotate the crankshaft to rotate the camshaft to close the valves to then ignite a cylinder charge. Valves could be closed by this new means instead. Sparking a sealed cylinder would then start the crankshaft rotating. ? I haven't read about. I'm just guessing. Anthony Tsakiris begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(C@1`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@xxx.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`9 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````8P`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(P```&1I>5]E M9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``$P`0```"4````G9&EY7V5F:4!C;W5L;VUB+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=2<``````@$+, $````H````4TU44#I$25E?149)0$-/54Q/34(N14Y' M+D](24\M4U1!5$4N1415``,``#D`````"P! .@$````"`?8/`0````0````` M```"VDT!!( !`"4```!213H@16QE8W1R;VAY9')A=6QI8R!#86UL97-S(%9A M;'9E`' ``0```"4```!2 M13H@16QE8W1R;VAY9')A=6QI8R!#86UL97-S(%9A;'9EL"@P!0$P-4 M`@!C: K RW0*#,P/&!Q," M@xxx.@;W0% MD $%0#Y7:71H(&&4(',`P&P#(&5L&V')!1!C( )@;W<4X0(@LB ;T&4@"X ! MD&L=T%<#@0:0!O!D':)Y'!!H>PA@'L%B'= !H!R0':!OR0J%9&\;\'=A'R # M\'<;T1VR'(=S`9 `( 20+$8@![ @T&-A;1\Q86 -L&0N(N#F5!W "H5B80) !) ?(7QI>AW0(S #H!^Q%W%U[F,D\0J% M"H5('3 @L0>1SQO0)? @OR)6(#\*BQGK<1+QP4``'!K M(W0Q*R,B,K=CUQ<`$? =HW8'0'8'D"T5YS$A';$#H&EG`P`QD1P`]&-Y&>!N M!($C(!'!) #])1%6-6,C(!]E,?8TPA^1_3$!:"2#!^ '@xxx.LD$"4" M4RU!:R1"' $D$/T > [ snip ] > > > Now I was under the impression this was because of the O2 sensor > > temperature (and the temp effect on O2 sensor volts), not because of a > > different desired AFR.... The sensor is not very useful very far from > > stoich, so I don't think trying to stay in closed loop would buy you > > anything. > > [ snip s'more ] > > I recently did some digging into O2 sensors, reading research and SAE > papers. From what I saw, O2 sensors, though very non-linear, are > repeatable and do give meaningful results off stoich. The argument > was made on this group that exhaust byproducts other than O2, CO2, > and H2O skewed the output making the reading off stoich meaningless. > The stuff I read did not address this. It did say that, off stoich, > the temp of the sensor changed the reading (i.e. calibration), so > it would not be accurate unless the temp of the sensor were factored > into the measurement. Now, Todd K. says that he regularly uses the > EGO to help him tune his vehicles (that is what you said, isn't it, > Todd?), and I faithfully watch the digital readout from mine when > I tune my Bronco -- but I'm by no means an authority. I just play, > but it seems to me to give "useful" readings off stoich. In other > words, I feel that I can set my engine to give an EGO reading of > about .8 volts or so for power and maybe .1 to .2 for economy. > > Flame on. > > Tom Cloud >From what I've read at various places, both Tom and Snip are correct, however, it is difficult to verify what the optimal voltage is on the engine without verifying it on a dyno. Also all of this is assuming we have good fuel distribution from cylinder to cylinder, because the sensor measures an average of what is comming down the pipe. Regarding the target voltage, I have generally found that once my target voltage is outside of the 0.3 to 0.7 volt window, my feedback loop becomes unstable. By "unstable" I mean that swings in emissions output of the engine begin to widen. ------------------------------ From: "Orin Harding" Date: Wed, 13 Nov 96 19:30:01 UT Subject: RE: Source for Webber style FI manifolds? Try Gary at: TWM Induction 325D Rutherford St. Goleta, CA 93117 (805) 987-9478 They make a IDF style with 40, 45, 58, and 50mm bore sizes. They also have IDA, DCOE, and DCNF styles. - ---------- From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu on behalf of Jeremy Pronk Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 1996 1:18 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Source for Webber style FI manifolds? Hello, Sorry if this is a little off topic, but I am after a source for the webber style (port type) inject manifolds. What I am actually after is 2 idf webber style fi manifolds ~38mm is size (to replace the stock webber carbies). If anyone on the list sells, or is close to someone who sells the parts, I would love to know! regards, Jeremy, Sydney AUSTRALIA http://www.st.nepean.uws.edu.au/~jpronk/ '83 AlfaSud Ti (Haltech E6 efi) ------------------------------ From: kleenair@xxx.com Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 14:09:21 -0800 Subject: Re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------1FE346CD5B35 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is some data that shows newer vehicles stay in closed loop at WOT. The vehicle tested is a 1997 GMC 2500 P/U with a 5700 Vortec V-8. I logged MAP, RPM, TPS (0= closed, 400= WOT), and O2 volts. You can see the sensor voltage toggles all the way through WOT points. If this works out the way I think, the message should have an attached file with the data. - --------------1FE346CD5B35 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="TSTGASO.PRN" "Rec","Sec","Cnt","Key" , "MAP", "RPM", "O2VOLT", "tpsindex" " "," "," "," " , "Avg" , "Avg" , "Avg" , "Avg" 1, 0.00, 1, " " , 14.73, 1683.28, 0.58, 39.00 2, 0.22, 1, " " , 14.76, 1683.28, 0.76, 39.00 3, 0.38, 1, " " , 14.76, 1677.42, 0.40, 39.00 4, 0.60, 1, " " , 14.79, 1683.28, 0.26, 39.00 5, 0.77, 1, " " , 14.79, 1683.28, 0.31, 39.00 6, 0.99, 1, " " , 14.79, 1677.42, 0.36, 39.00 7, 1.15, 1, " " , 14.79, 1683.28, 0.69, 37.00 8, 1.37, 1, " " , 14.82, 1689.15, 0.61, 41.00 9, 1.54, 1, " " , 14.94, 1689.15, 0.73, 58.00 10, 1.76, 1, " " , 16.39, 1736.07, 0.11, 67.00 11, 1.92, 1, " " , 17.24, 1765.40, 0.65, 71.00 12, 2.03, 1, " " , 17.48, 1824.05, 0.29, 73.00 13, 2.20, 1, " " , 17.67, 1853.37, 0.75, 71.00 14, 2.36, 1, " " , 17.67, 1888.56, 0.66, 80.00 15, 2.53, 1, " " , 17.82, 1923.75, 0.41, 85.00 16, 2.69, 1, " " , 18.42, 1976.54, 0.16, 87.00 17, 2.86, 1, " " , 18.76, 2005.87, 0.83, 88.00 18, 3.02, 1, " " , 18.67, 2046.92, 0.10, 92.00 19, 3.19, 1, " " , 18.82, 2082.11, 0.64, 94.00 20, 3.41, 1, " " , 19.09, 2123.17, 0.57, 96.00 21, 3.57, 1, " " , 19.06, 2152.49, 0.11, 100.00 22, 3.79, 1, " " , 19.33, 2187.68, 0.66, 104.00 23, 4.01, 1, " " , 19.70, 2234.60, 0.62, 115.00 24, 4.23, 1, " " , 20.97, 2293.26, 0.81, 125.00 25, 4.40, 1, " " , 21.97, 2381.23, 0.75, 129.00 26, 4.62, 1, " " , 22.12, 2439.88, 0.68, 133.00 27, 4.78, 1, " " , 22.42, 2498.53, 0.10, 140.00 28, 5.00, 1, " " , 23.00, 2568.92, 0.77, 142.00 29, 5.22, 1, " " , 23.15, 2627.57, 0.75, 143.00 30, 5.44, 1, " " , 23.12, 2668.62, 0.80, 144.00 31, 5.71, 1, " " , 22.97, 2697.95, 0.77, 144.00 32, 5.93, 1, " " , 22.91, 2721.41, 0.58, 144.00 33, 6.21, 1, " " , 22.82, 2733.14, 0.33, 144.00 34, 6.48, 1, " " , 22.85, 2744.87, 0.12, 148.00 35, 6.70, 1, " " , 23.24, 2762.46, 0.29, 169.00 36, 7.03, 1, " " , 25.21, 2826.98, 0.81, 189.00 37, 7.31, 1, " " , 26.42, 2909.09, 0.09, 197.00 38, 7.64, 1, " " , 26.61, 2967.74, 0.70, 198.00 39, 7.91, 1, " " , 26.55, 3014.66, 0.50, 227.00 40, 8.19, 1, " " , 27.52, 3073.31, 0.10, 269.00 41, 8.52, 1, " " , 28.27, 3137.83, 0.76, 329.00 42, 8.79, 1, " " , 28.67, 3208.21, 0.10, 392.00 43, 9.07, 1, " " , 28.79, 3249.27, 0.78, 392.00 44, 9.34, 1, " " , 28.82, 3137.83, 0.09, 393.00 WOT 45, 9.56, 1, " " , 28.88, 3020.53, 0.65, 393.00 46, 9.78, 1, " " , 28.88, 3008.80, 0.82, 393.00 47, 10.00, 1, " " , 28.88, 3002.93, 0.84, 393.00 48, 10.27, 1, " " , 28.88, 2997.07, 0.32, 393.00 49, 10.49, 1, " " , 28.91, 3002.93, 0.61, 393.00 50, 10.71, 1, " " , 28.91, 3002.93, 0.27, 393.00 51, 10.99, 1, " " , 28.88, 2997.07, 0.15, 393.00 52, 11.21, 1, " " , 28.88, 2985.34, 0.68, 393.00 53, 11.54, 1, " " , 28.91, 2991.20, 0.09, 393.00 54, 11.76, 1, " " , 28.91, 2979.47, 0.80, 393.00 55, 12.03, 1, " " , 28.91, 2979.47, 0.13, 393.00 56, 12.31, 1, " " , 28.88, 2979.47, 0.10, 393.00 57, 12.58, 1, " " , 28.88, 2985.34, 0.31, 393.00 58, 12.86, 1, " " , 28.91, 2979.47, 0.67, 393.00 59, 13.13, 1, " " , 28.91, 2973.61, 0.18, 394.00 60, 13.41, 1, " " , 28.91, 2979.47, 0.08, 394.00 61, 13.63, 1, " " , 28.91, 2979.47, 0.10, 394.00 62, 13.90, 1, " " , 28.91, 2985.34, 0.48, 393.00 63, 14.18, 1, " " , 28.91, 2979.47, 0.14, 393.00 64, 14.45, 1, " " , 28.91, 2985.34, 0.63, 393.00 65, 14.73, 1, " " , 28.88, 2985.34, 0.10, 394.00 66, 15.00, 1, " " , 28.91, 2985.34, 0.29, 394.00 67, 15.27, 1, " " , 28.91, 2997.07, 0.10, 393.00 68, 15.49, 1, " " , 28.91, 2985.34, 0.14, 394.00 69, 15.77, 1, " " , 28.91, 2973.61, 0.68, 393.00 70, 16.04, 1, " " , 28.91, 2973.61, 0.65, 393.00 71, 16.32, 1, " " , 28.91, 2973.61, 0.66, 392.00 72, 16.59, 1, " " , 28.91, 2973.61, 0.11, 391.00 73, 16.87, 1, " " , 28.91, 2979.47, 0.51, 308.00 74, 17.14, 1, " " , 28.67, 2973.61, 0.12, 226.00 75, 17.42, 1, " " , 27.55, 2938.42, 0.71, 182.00 76, 17.69, 1, " " , 25.76, 2873.90, 0.41, 161.00 77, 17.97, 1, " " , 24.55, 2785.92, 0.12, 135.00 78, 18.19, 1, " " , 22.03, 2686.22, 0.10, 119.00 79, 18.41, 1, " " , 20.39, 2563.05, 0.76, 94.00 80, 18.63, 1, " " , 17.82, 2410.56, 0.12, 79.00 81, 18.85, 1, " " , 16.27, 2263.93, 0.73, 53.00 82, 19.01, 1, " " , 15.30, 2093.84, 0.25, 27.00 83, 19.18, 1, " " , 13.39, 1970.67, 0.89, 16.00 84, 19.34, 1, " " , 12.00, 1824.05, 0.88, 7.00 85, 19.51, 1, " " , 10.85, 1736.07, 0.84, 0.00 86, 19.67, 1, " " , 9.27, 1595.31, 0.79, 0.00 87, 19.84, 1, " " , 8.97, 1478.01, 0.19, 0.00 88, 20.00, 1, " " , 8.52, 1384.16, 0.17, 0.00 89, 20.11, 1, " " , 8.36, 1237.54, 0.61, 0.00 90, 20.27, 1, " " , 8.03, 1143.70, 0.75, 0.00 91, 20.44, 1, " " , 7.97, 1032.26, 0.73, 0.00 92, 20.60, 1, " " , 7.97, 920.82, 0.73, 0.00 93, 20.71, 1, " " , 8.15, 856.31, 0.74, 0.00 94, 20.82, 1, " " , 8.30, 797.65, 0.74, 0.00 95, 20.99, 1, " " , 8.55, 739.00, 0.74, 0.00 96, 21.10, 1, " " , 8.88, 692.08, 0.78, 0.00 97, 21.26, 1, " " , 9.30, 645.16, 0.78, 0.00 98, 21.37, 1, " " , 9.88, 621.70, 0.78, 0.00 99, 21.48, 1, " " , 10.18, 609.97, 0.86, 0.00 100, 21.59, 1, " " , 10.48, 604.11, 0.87, 0.00 101, 21.76, 1, " " , 10.48, 604.11, 0.87, 0.00 102, 21.87, 1, " " , 10.64, 604.11, 0.87, 0.00 103, 21.98, 1, " " , 10.79, 621.70, 0.87, 0.00 104, 22.09, 1, " " , 10.79, 621.70, 0.86, 0.00 105, 22.20, 1, " " , 10.79, 621.70, 0.83, 0.00 106, 22.36, 1, " " , 10.79, 627.57, 0.83, 0.00 107, 22.47, 1, " " , 10.76, 627.57, 0.77, 0.00 108, 22.58, 1, " " , 10.76, 621.70, 0.57, 0.00 109, 22.69, 1, " " , 10.76, 621.70, 0.57, 6.00 110, 22.80, 1, " " , 11.06, 639.30, 0.15, 7.00 111, 22.97, 1, " " , 11.45, 656.89, 0.10, 20.00 112, 23.08, 1, " " , 12.91, 721.41, 0.10, 71.00 113, 23.24, 1, " " , 18.45, 821.11, 0.10, 95.00 114, 23.41, 1, " " , 24.79, 997.07, 0.10, 95.00 115, 23.57, 1, " " , 23.82, 1431.09, 0.05, 95.00 116, 23.74, 1, " " , 21.18, 1736.07, 0.87, 115.00 117, 23.96, 1, " " , 21.82, 1982.40, 0.07, 143.00 118, 24.18, 1, " " , 24.45, 2428.15, 0.85, 143.00 119, 24.45, 1, " " , 22.70, 2856.31, 0.17, 144.00 120, 24.78, 1, " " , 21.21, 3261.00, 0.77, 145.00 121, 25.05, 1, " " , 20.67, 3061.58, 0.75, 139.00 122, 25.27, 1, " " , 22.06, 2727.27, 0.68, 141.00 123, 25.55, 1, " " , 22.45, 2744.87, 0.43, 141.00 124, 25.82, 1, " " , 22.39, 2762.46, 0.36, 137.00 125, 26.04, 1, " " , 21.88, 2739.00, 0.13, 139.00 126, 26.32, 1, " " , 22.24, 2744.87, 0.77, 135.00 127, 26.54, 1, " " , 21.88, 2727.27, 0.76, 132.00 128, 26.81, 1, " " , 21.45, 2686.22, 0.43, 137.00 129, 27.03, 1, " " , 22.12, 2692.08, 0.69, 122.00 130, 27.25, 1, " " , 19.97, 2662.76, 0.83, 110.00 131, 27.53, 1, " " , 18.82, 2557.18, 0.24, 108.00 132, 27.69, 1, " " , 18.73, 2504.40, 0.10, 107.00 133, 27.91, 1, " " , 18.85, 2469.21, 0.82, 109.00 134, 28.08, 1, " " , 19.00, 2422.29, 0.09, 121.00 135, 28.30, 1, " " , 21.00, 2445.75, 0.09, 153.00 136, 28.52, 1, " " , 24.52, 2574.78, 0.80, 153.00 137, 28.74, 1, " " , 24.24, 2656.89, 0.82, 152.00 138, 29.01, 1, " " , 24.03, 2715.54, 0.61, 152.00 139, 29.23, 1, " " , 23.64, 2762.46, 0.18, 139.00 140, 29.51, 1, " " , 22.27, 2750.73, 0.09, 162.00 141, 29.78, 1, " " , 24.88, 2815.25, 0.09, 233.00 142, 30.11, 1, " " , 27.88, 2956.01, 0.53, 256.00 143, 30.38, 1, " " , 28.21, 3055.72, 0.73, 298.00 144, 30.66, 1, " " , 28.52, 3143.70, 0.74, 303.00 145, 30.99, 1, " " , 28.48, 3202.35, 0.77, 312.00 146, 31.32, 1, " " , 28.55, 3255.13, 0.30, 365.00 147, 31.59, 1, " " , 28.73, 3278.59, 0.24, 393.00 148, 31.87, 1, " " , 28.82, 3102.64, 0.65, 393.00 149, 32.09, 1, " " , 28.88, 3026.39, 0.61, 394.00 150, 32.31, 1, " " , 28.88, 3014.66, 0.25, 393.00 151, 32.53, 1, " " , 28.88, 3002.93, 0.67, 394.00 152, 32.80, 1, " " , 28.88, 3002.93, 0.12, 394.00 153, 33.02, 1, " " , 28.91, 2997.07, 0.37, 394.00 154, 33.30, 1, " " , 28.91, 2985.34, 0.17, 394.00 155, 33.57, 1, " " , 28.91, 2985.34, 0.68, 395.00 156, 33.85, 1, " " , 28.91, 2979.47, 0.10, 394.00 157, 34.07, 1, " " , 28.91, 2973.61, 0.38, 394.00 158, 34.34, 1, " " , 28.91, 2973.61, 0.77, 396.00 159, 34.62, 1, " " , 28.91, 2967.74, 0.17, 394.00 160, 34.89, 1, " " , 28.94, 2967.74, 0.38, 395.00 161, 35.16, 1, " " , 28.91, 2961.88, 0.35, 394.00 162, 35.38, 1, " " , 28.91, 2967.74, 0.68, 393.00 163, 35.66, 1, " " , 28.91, 2967.74, 0.72, 338.00 164, 35.93, 1, " " , 28.79, 2967.74, 0.37, 213.00 165, 36.21, 1, " " , 25.58, 2885.63, 0.82, 117.00 166, 36.48, 1, " " , 18.85, 2692.08, 0.40, 92.00 167, 36.70, 1, " " , 16.55, 2504.40, 0.60, 59.00 168, 36.87, 1, " " , 14.48, 2252.20, 0.71, 0.00 169, 37.03, 1, " " , 9.76, 2029.33, 0.89, 0.00 170, 37.20, 1, " " , 8.85, 1853.37, 0.89, 0.00 171, 37.36, 1, " " , 8.76, 1618.77, 0.84, 0.00 172, 37.53, 1, " " , 8.91, 1466.28, 0.83, 0.00 173, 37.64, 1, " " , 8.97, 1372.43, 0.82, 0.00 174, 37.80, 1, " " , 8.94, 1325.51, 0.83, 0.00 175, 37.91, 1, " " , 8.61, 1284.46, 0.81, 0.00 176, 38.08, 1, " " , 8.21, 1149.56, 0.81, 0.00 177, 38.19, 1, " " , 7.94, 1073.31, 0.66, 0.00 178, 38.41, 1, " " , 7.94, 956.01, 0.66, 0.00 179, 38.52, 1, " " , 8.00, 856.31, 0.18, 0.00 180, 38.68, 1, " " , 8.27, 797.65, 0.41, 0.00 181, 38.79, 1, " " , 8.52, 709.68, 0.72, 0.00 182, 38.90, 1, " " , 8.88, 680.35, 0.72, 0.00 183, 39.07, 1, " " , 9.45, 639.30, 0.81, 0.00 184, 39.18, 1, " " , 9.76, 621.70, 0.84, 0.00 185, 39.29, 1, " " , 10.06, 609.97, 0.84, 0.00 186, 39.40, 1, " " , 10.39, 598.24, 0.84, 0.00 187, 39.56, 1, " " , 10.70, 604.11, 0.84, 0.00 188, 39.67, 1, " " , 10.70, 604.11, 0.83, 1.00 189, 39.78, 1, " " , 10.79, 609.97, 0.82, 0.00 190, 39.89, 1, " " , 10.79, 609.97, 0.82, 0.00 191, 40.00, 1, " " , 10.82, 615.84, 0.79, 0.00 192, 40.16, 1, " " , 10.79, 621.70, 0.79, 0.00 193, 40.27, 1, " " , 10.79, 621.70, 0.70, 0.00 194, 40.38, 1, " " , 10.76, 621.70, 0.35, 0.00 195, 40.49, 1, " " , 10.85, 639.30, 0.35, 0.00 196, 40.66, 1, " " , 10.88, 656.89, 0.12, 0.00 197, 40.77, 1, " " , 10.76, 692.08, 0.32, 0.00 198, 40.93, 1, " " , 10.76, 692.08, 0.77, 0.00 199, 41.04, 1, " " , 10.30, 721.41, 0.77, 0.00 200, 41.21, 1, " " , 10.30, 739.00, 0.76, 0.00 201, 41.32, 1, " " , 10.03, 739.00, 0.55, 0.00 202, 41.43, 1, " " , 9.85, 733.14, 0.11, 0.00 203, 41.59, 1, " " , 9.55, 739.00, 0.09, 0.00 204, 41.70, 1, " " , 9.36, 739.00, 0.09, 0.00 205, 41.87, 1, " " , 9.21, 733.14, 0.09, 0.00 206, 41.98, 1, " " , 9.21, 733.14, 0.09, 0.00 207, 42.09, 1, " " , 9.21, 733.14, 0.09, 0.00 208, 42.20, 1, " " , 9.21, 733.14, 0.09, 0.00 209, 42.31, 1, " " , 9.21, 733.14, 0.09, 0.00 210, 43.46, 1, " " , 9.21, 733.14, 0.09, 0.00 - --------------1FE346CD5B35-- ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 15:56:41 -0600 Subject: Re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop >Here is some data that shows newer vehicles stay in closed loop at WOT. > >The vehicle tested is a 1997 GMC 2500 P/U with a 5700 Vortec V-8. I >logged MAP, RPM, TPS (0= closed, 400= WOT), and O2 volts. You can see >the sensor voltage toggles all the way through WOT points. > >If this works out the way I think, the message should have an attached >file with the data. That was interesting (really). Thanks. Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: Markus Strobl Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 16:10:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop > Here is some data that shows newer vehicles stay in closed loop at WOT. > > The vehicle tested is a 1997 GMC 2500 P/U with a 5700 Vortec V-8. I > logged MAP, RPM, TPS (0= closed, 400= WOT), and O2 volts. You can see > the sensor voltage toggles all the way through WOT points. Yep, sure looks like it stays in closed loop. However my 1996 Camaro Z28 (5.7l SFI V8) disregards O2 sensor voltage at WOT. During WOT the O2 is at 890-930mV and never goes below 880. - ------- Markus Strobl 96 Z28 6M Black. Borla, 1LE shaft, B&M shifter, SFC 17" speedlines, 1.6 rockers, home-ported heads, 4.10 Dallas, Texas gears, Swaybars, Crane Valve Springs, STB, BFG 275:s ------------------------------ From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 17:31:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: ECM code in oem applications At 08:15 PM 11/12/96 -0800, you wrote: >Just a bit of trivia: > > I got a dump of my '84 ECM for use on my E4ME carb and it was 84 >pages. > I was told today that the '97 GM 4 cylinder application PCM has >over 2200 pages of code. > > THAT's the march of technology in action if I ever saw it! > > --Dan > Wow, I guess finding which bits activates VATS, or any thing else is like finding six leaf clovers. Hats off to you software hackers? GMD ------------------------------ From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 18:06:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop Care to share any of that hard earnd protocol you worked out? I still got dreams of using a PC, windows operating env., and ALDL data to create virtual instrument display. GMD At 07:54 PM 11/12/96 -0800, you wrote: > I have been meaning to make a decent scan tool to watch the O2 controller > at work in the ECM under actual driving conditions. I have completely > worked out GM ALDL protocol, but am not really a programmer. :-( This > makes it hard to build a scan tool. > > > Scot Sealander Sealand@xxx.com > > > ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.au Date: Thu, 14 Nov 96 08:59:12 Subject: Re: Electrohydraulic Camless Valves Can't find the magazine anywhere in the local newsagents in OZ, is it available somewhere on the web ? Or could someone possibly scan it and email it to me (it can't be considered breach of copyright if the magazine is not available in the first place). Dan dzorde@xxx.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Electrohydraulic Camless Valves Author: diy_efi@xxx.edu at INTERNET Date: 11/12/96 11:53 PM There was a thread a few months ago about electrically controlled valves. The November 7 issue of MACHINE DESIGN magazine has an article about Ford's effor ts in that direction. The article claims they can operate 16 valves with 125 wat ts plus some hydraulic power.. The concept is elegant. My complements to the designers. With a small electric blower on the intake manifold they should be able to do awa y with the electric starter, No cam shaft or gearing is needed. The battery siz e can be reduced. Everyone should find a copy of this article. I bet we will see more of this in t he future. john carroll - ------------------------------------- jac@xxx.us 11/13/96 00:11:33 ------------------------------ From: RABBITT_Andrew@xxx.au Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 08:59:18 est Subject: re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop >The vehicle tested is a 1997 GMC 2500 P/U with a 5700 Vortec V-8. I >logged MAP, RPM, TPS (0= closed, 400= WOT), and O2 volts. You can >see the sensor voltage toggles all the way through WOT points. Interesting data there. A couple of questions though; you say 400 = WOT, but the maximum value is only 396. Is 400 the exact WOT breakpoint (in which case it never went into WOT mode) or is it something else? If so, do you know what it is? I noticed a lonely WOT flag at t=9.34 s, but not during the second tip-in. Is this your notation or from the ECU? I know that the EEC-4 delays open-loop operation for a few seconds after entering WOT mode. Might this be the case for GM, only longer? Andrew Rabbitt ------------------------------ From: "Scot A. Sealander" Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 20:52:43 -0800 Subject: Re: ECM code in oem applications George M. Dailey wrote: > > Wow, I guess finding which bits activates VATS, or any thing else is like > finding six leaf clovers. Hats off to you software hackers? > > GMD Thanks, George.... Most of my listings for GM's are 350-500k for just the code listing. The PROM data area descriptions can be 100-150k long. Then there are 256 bytes in the variable area to name (in C3's). 512 to 768 bytes for variables in P4's. At approx 2k per page, the listings are 180 to 250 pages long for just the code. It does represent a lot of work. Scot Sealander ------------------------------ From: Mazda Ebrahimi Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 22:17:39 -0500 Subject: Re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop RABBITT_Andrew@xxx.au wrote: > > >The vehicle tested is a 1997 GMC 2500 P/U with a 5700 Vortec V-8. I > >logged MAP, RPM, TPS (0= closed, 400= WOT), and O2 volts. You can > >see the sensor voltage toggles all the way through WOT points. > > Interesting data there. A couple of questions though; you say 400 = > WOT, but the maximum value is only 396. Is 400 the exact WOT > breakpoint (in which case it never went into WOT mode) or is it > something else? If so, do you know what it is? > > I noticed a lonely WOT flag at t=9.34 s, but not during the second > tip-in. Is this your notation or from the ECU? > > I know that the EEC-4 delays open-loop operation for a few seconds > after entering WOT mode. Might this be the case for GM, only longer? > > Andrew Rabbitt Hi Andrew, The system I used to log this data is a Compressed Natural Gas system which piggy-backs the OEM computer. I ran the vehicle on gasoline, in which case the natural gas system basically monitors various sensors independant of the OEM. I mentioned 400 is the maximum value possible. There is a calibration process that I perform to let the natural gas system know what WOT voltage is. going to 396 instead of 400 is simply a calibration error on the natural gas system. I did have my foot all the way on the pedal. Also, I added the WOT flag later to show a sample of the data. I guess I should have added a second one for the second WOT region. Regarding the delay in enrichment for WOT, that is an interesting point which I will investigate tomorrow. I won't be surprised if that is the case, because I have found many OEM strategies change as soon as you exit the limits of the FTP-75 and I/M-240 test cycles. ------------------------------ From: Todd Knighton Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 19:19:47 -0800 Subject: Re: Source for Webber style FI manifolds? Jeremy Pronk wrote: > > Hello, > > Sorry if this is a little off topic, but I am after a source for the > webber style (port type) inject manifolds. What I am actually after is 2 > idf webber style fi manifolds ~38mm is size (to replace the stock webber > carbies). > Jeremy, TWM makes weber replacements with throttle position sensor mounts, injector bosses and the whole bit. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering ------------------------------ From: Todd Knighton Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 19:26:54 -0800 Subject: Re: O2 Sensor Open/Close Loop Now, Todd K. says that he regularly uses the > EGO to help him tune his vehicles (that is what you said, isn't it, > Todd?) The unit we use is from Motec and uses the 4 wire Bosch probe. It seems to be very acurate from it's 11/1 to 23.5/1 on pump fuel stuff. We ran it agains a UEGO sensor for backup. An interesting note: We've experienced the O2 sensor readings changing under pressure and read something of the sort in some paper. We primarily deal in turbocharged vehicles and this can be a problem. We always place them after the turbochargers so as to not affect the readings under boost. The Motec unit seems pretty unaffected, though a typical 3 wire unit reading on a Halmeter will change a couple of points. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering ------------------------------ From: jac@xxx.us Date: Wed, 13 Nov 96 21:13:55 PST Subject: Re: Electrohydraulic Camless Valves determine a cylinder that has the piston part way down. open both valves. ventilate the cylinder with fresh air and a squirt of fuel. Close both valves and light it off jac On Wed, 13 Nov 1996 08:23:22 -0600 tom cloud wrote: >> >> >>There was a thread a few months ago about electrically controlled valves. >> >> >>The November 7 issue of MACHINE DESIGN magazine has an article about Ford's >efforts in that direction. The article claims they can operate 16 valves >with 125 watts plus some hydraulic power.. >> >>The concept is elegant. My complements to the designers. >> >>With a small electric blower on the intake manifold they should be able to >do away with the electric starter, No cam shaft or gearing is needed. The >battery size can be reduced. > >How does that do away with the starter ? > > >Tom Cloud > - ------------------------------------- jac@xxx.us 11/13/96 21:13:55 ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 00:23:00 -0800 Subject: Re: Injector Inductance It depends on which type of injector you are using, if you are using the saturated injectors, the clamp can be smaller then the low impedance injectors. I have tried using a 33v 5watt with no heat probems on the low impedance types. Also I tried one of the TVS parts 1.5KE32CA (or something close) and that worked too. The TVS's are larger, and more costly. Sandy At 02:49 PM 11/13/96 EST, you wrote: > >What is the maximum injector inductance I am likely to find? I'm asking >this so that I can size a zener clamp on my output driver circuit >accordingly. >========================================================= > Stuart Baly (S.Baly@xxx.au) >'71 Datrat 1600, '89 Kawasaki GPz900R, '81 Yamaha RD350LC >========================================================= > > ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #345 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".