DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 15 November 1996 Volume 01 : Number 346 In this issue: Lambda Sensors.... Re: Lambda Sensors.... Re: Lambda Sensors.... Re: Lambda Sensors.... Re: Lambda Sensors.... Re: O2 sensor Re: Lambda Sensors.... Re: Lambda Sensors.... CSP3000? re: CSP3000? Re: Lambda Sensors.... Re[2]: Lambda Sensors.... other DIY automotive related list and news groups carbs as t-bodies Re: Lambda Sensors.... More Injector questions ;) Heated O2 sensor question Re: Lambda Sensors.... Re: More Injector questions ;) See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thor Johnson Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:21:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: Lambda Sensors.... With all the talk on Oxy sensors, I thought I might ask a few more questions (aack! do I *ever* have any answers?): The Lambda sensor is good for only a small range... Can it reliably sense the "Power Band" of a mixture, or is that too rich for it? Several people have mentioned temperature instability. Because this is a "research vehicle" (at least in my mind, 'cuz I know little about gas engines), I was planning on mounting the lambda sensors approx 1-2" from the exhaust ports (1/cyl to make the microconfuser code easier). Can I get relaible readings here, or will the exhaust temp cycling confuse my sensor? Lastly, but not about O2 sensors... what data would you be interested in seeing from this engine? (Honda CBR600) I have several inputs that I'm not using, and if I can put them in the budget, I would be happy to add any interesting sensors (I would like to add accelrometers, but haven't found a source for them). Many thanks! PS: When I actually get some time to play with my home PC, I'll be putting up a page with all my stuff on it, FWIW. Thor Johnson johnsont@xxx.edu http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont Have you seen the WarpMap lately? http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont/warpmap ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 10:42:59 -0600 Subject: Re: Lambda Sensors.... > >With all the talk on Oxy sensors, I thought I might ask a few more >questions (aack! do I *ever* have any answers?): > > The Lambda sensor is good for only a small range... Can it reliably > sense the "Power Band" of a mixture, or is that too rich for it? > > Several people have mentioned temperature instability. Because this is > a "research vehicle" (at least in my mind, 'cuz I know little about > gas engines), I was planning on mounting the lambda sensors approx 1-2" > from the exhaust ports (1/cyl to make the microconfuser code easier). > Can I get relaible readings here, or will the exhaust temp cycling > confuse my sensor? The papers I read show that the EGO output is useable at stoich once it's above some temp (600 C seems to stick in my mind ??). It's off stoich where the variations make the sensor 'inaccurate' but not necessarily unusable (I love talking in generalities -- I can sound so knowledgeable without knowing anything -- called 'blowin' smoke'). Serially, though, EGO is used by auto mfgrs for stoich. Most now heat it to get it to temp faster. I wonder if any oem uses it for any data other than stoich? (i.e. does anyone do closed loop at any A:F other than stoich??) From my experience looking at a digital readout, you can get an indication of what's going on, but I don't think I'd want to use that data to close the loop on a confuser. Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: Stephen Dubovsky Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 13:15:55 -0500 Subject: Re: Lambda Sensors.... ... >Lastly, but not about O2 sensors... what data would you be interested in >seeing from this engine? (Honda CBR600) I have several inputs that I'm >not using, and if I can put them in the budget, I would be happy to add >any interesting sensors (I would like to add accelrometers, but haven't >found a source for them). ... ADI(analog devices) makes a really nice +-5g solid state accelerometer in a small 5-6? pin metal transistor can. Costs about $30 from newark. The part # is ADXL05 I think. U can go to their web site for data sheets (www.analog.com). Injecting a cbr600? where did you get throttle bodys/injectors/fuel pumps/...? Ive got a 95 FZR600 that just seems too easy to tinker with;). Would be interested in any info you have. SMD - -- Stephen Dubovsky dubovsky@xxx.edu 95 Yamaha FZR600 83 Porsche 911SC 84 Jeep Cherokee ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 13:49:00 -0600 Subject: Re: Lambda Sensors.... >... >>Lastly, but not about O2 sensors... what data would you be interested in >>seeing from this engine? (Honda CBR600) I have several inputs that I'm >>not using, and if I can put them in the budget, I would be happy to add >>any interesting sensors (I would like to add accelrometers, but haven't >>found a source for them). >... Why aren't you using EGT ? Is that only good for fixed load (e.g. airplane) operation? Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: "Michael T. Kasimirsky" Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 14:48:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Lambda Sensors.... On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, Stephen Dubovsky wrote: > Injecting a cbr600? where did you get throttle bodys/injectors/fuel > pumps/...? Ive got a 95 FZR600 that just seems too easy to tinker with;). > Would be interested in any info you have. Send it to the list; I'm also interested in injecting my bike. Michael T. Kasimirsky ----> mtk@xxx.edu Days: Staff Engineer or mk4u@xxx.edu ASTM Test Monitoring Center Phi Gamma Delta, Nights: 1992 Suzuki GSX-R750 Pilot NRA Life Member, AMA Member 1991 Suzuki GSF400 Bandit Mechanic DoD #1848 ------------------------------ From: Todd King Date: Thu, 14 Nov 96 12:20:00 PST Subject: Re: O2 sensor <<>> I think you mean me (King vs Knighton). Not just myself but many people pay attention to the O2 when performance tuning. Note that we are not saying "I set my WOT A/F to 12.z by adjusting until the O2 reads xx mv; we are saying "my car runs quickest when the WOT O2 range reads xx mv; thus when I make a change I'll adjust until I see that xx mv range at WOT again." So the use of the O2 sensor off stoich may not be good for an absolute A/F setting but OK for comparable settings. Todd Todd_King@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Doug Robson Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 07:58:17 +1100 Subject: Re: Lambda Sensors.... tom cloud wrote: > > > > >With all the talk on Oxy sensors, I thought I might ask a few more > >questions (aack! do I *ever* have any answers?): > > > > The Lambda sensor is good for only a small range... Can it reliably > > sense the "Power Band" of a mixture, or is that too rich for it? > > > > Several people have mentioned temperature instability. Because this is > > a "research vehicle" (at least in my mind, 'cuz I know little about > > gas engines), I was planning on mounting the lambda sensors approx 1-2" > > from the exhaust ports (1/cyl to make the microconfuser code easier). > > Can I get relaible readings here, or will the exhaust temp cycling > > confuse my sensor? > > The papers I read show that the EGO output is useable at stoich once > it's above some temp (600 C seems to stick in my mind ??). It's > off stoich where the variations make the sensor 'inaccurate' but > not necessarily unusable (I love talking in generalities -- I can sound > so knowledgeable without knowing anything -- called 'blowin' smoke'). > Serially, though, EGO is used by auto mfgrs for stoich. Most now > heat it to get it to temp faster. I wonder if any oem uses it for > any data other than stoich? (i.e. does anyone do closed loop at any > A:F other than stoich??) From my experience looking at a digital > readout, you can get an indication of what's going on, but I don't > think I'd want to use that data to close the loop on a confuser. > > Tom Cloud The LAtes MOtec units have a 3D table of load vs lambda, you type in the lambda you want at that point and then just rooa about on the track or the dyno till it says its fill all points for fuel and thats it lmbda = .89 everywhere wish my autronic would do it regards - -- |===============================================================| | When I die, | | I want to go in my sleep, like my grandfather, | | not screaming like the passengers in his car. | |---------------------------------------------------------------| | Doug Robson (H) mailto:doug@xxx.au | | (W) mailto:Doug.Robson@xxx.com | | Sydney, Australia http://www.cia.com.au/doug | |---------------------------------------------------------------| | Club Car Racing Register of NSW | Thank God | | 1992/93 Under 2 litre State Champion | for | | http://www.cia.com.au/doug/ccrrnsw.html | Gravity | |===============================================================| ------------------------------ From: Carl Haas Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 18:26:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Lambda Sensors.... On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, Stephen Dubovsky wrote: > Injecting a cbr600? where did you get throttle bodys/injectors/fuel > pumps/...? Ive got a 95 FZR600 that just seems too easy to tinker with;). > Would be interested in any info you have. > > SMD > Hey, It seems a lot of us are considering FI for motorcycles. I happen to have a spare set of carbs for my FJ1100 that I plan to use for "throttle bodies". I inted to keep the CV slide and diaphragm for good velocity, and plan to mount the injectors (TBD) to the underside after removing float bowls, drilling, tapping, and whatever else... Assuming you can find a set of used carbs, Using an OEM set of carbs for the "throttle bodies" will make it easy to synchronize the carbs, and probably save a good bit of time and money. Carl Haas ------------------------------ From: Carl Haas Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 17:40:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: CSP3000? I saw some specs on this chip, and it looks like a good one to base a home-built EFI around. Who makes this microcontroller? Where can I get a databook (US)? Thanks Carl Haas ------------------------------ From: SRavet@xxx.com Date: Thu, 14 Nov 96 17:14:58 CST Subject: re: CSP3000? Carl Haas Wrote: | | | I saw some specs on this chip, and it looks like a good one to base a | home-built EFI around. | | Who makes this microcontroller? | Where can I get a databook (US)? | | Thanks | Carl Haas | | Hi Carl, all I know about it is in the EFI-REF list, which I assume is where you got my address? I think it may have been discontinued. Are you a member of the DIY-EFI list? If not you should join, there is a lot of good discussion on there. - --steve Steve Ravet sravet@xxx.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... ------------------------------ From: lambs@xxx.au (Stephen Lamb) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 10:42:51 +1100 Subject: Re: Lambda Sensors.... >Hey, It seems a lot of us are considering FI for motorcycles. I happen >to have a spare set of carbs for my FJ1100 that I plan to use for >"throttle bodies". I inted to keep the CV slide and diaphragm for good >velocity, and plan to mount the injectors (TBD) to the underside after >removing float bowls, drilling, tapping, and whatever else... > >Assuming you can find a set of used carbs, Using an OEM set of carbs for >the "throttle bodies" will make it easy to synchronize the carbs, and >probably save a good bit of time and money. Another option may be to get a set of throttle bodies from a wrecked FI motorcycle. A few of examples spring to mind - early 80's GPZ1100, Z1300 or Z750 Turbo. Probably not as cheap as the carby idea tho'. Should be able to get a suitable fuel pump, etc. from same. Cheers Stephen Lamb Dept. of Defence DSTO, AMRL 506 Lorimer Street Fishermans Bend VIC 3207 Australia Tel: +61 3 9626 7525 Fax: +61 3 9626 7089 IZCC #180 ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.au Date: Fri, 15 Nov 96 08:23:38 Subject: Re[2]: Lambda Sensors.... Fully self adjusting, that's a novel idea, don't you at least need something basic in a fuel table to start running ? Dan dzorde@xxx.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Lambda Sensors.... Author: diy_efi@xxx.edu at INTERNET Date: 11/15/96 7:00 AM The LAtes MOtec units have a 3D table of load vs lambda, you type in the lambda you want at that point and then just rooa about on the track or the dyno till it says its fill all points for fuel and thats it lmbda = .89 everywhere wish my autronic would do it regards - -- |===============================================================| | When I die, | | I want to go in my sleep, like my grandfather, | | not screaming like the passengers in his car. | |---------------------------------------------------------------| | Doug Robson (H) mailto:doug@xxx.au | | (W) mailto:Doug.Robson@xxx.com | | Sydney, Australia http://www.cia.com.au/doug | |---------------------------------------------------------------| | Club Car Racing Register of NSW | Thank God | | 1992/93 Under 2 litre State Champion | for | | http://www.cia.com.au/doug/ccrrnsw.html | Gravity | |===============================================================| ------------------------------ From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 18:38:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: other DIY automotive related list and news groups Gentlemen, are there any other DIY automotive related list and news groups on the net. Like Home built sports cars, automotive controls, you know the stuff that makes the Gurus drule. GMD ------------------------------ From: Fred Miranda Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 17:34:18 -0800 Subject: carbs as t-bodies Carl, I'm all for using the stock throttle bodies, but the only place the CV slide is going to increase the velocity is right there under the slide. Throttle response is also going to suffer. To get the most out of the conversion why not gut the t-bodies leaving only the throttle plates and filling in any holes with jb weld. Fred > I inted to keep the CV slide and diaphragm for good >velocity, and plan to mount the injectors (TBD) to the underside after >removing float bowls, drilling, tapping, and whatever else... > >Carl Haas > > ------------------------------ From: Mazda Ebrahimi Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 21:32:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Lambda Sensors.... tom cloud wrote: > > >... > >>Lastly, but not about O2 sensors... what data would you be interested in > >>seeing from this engine? (Honda CBR600) I have several inputs that I'm > >>not using, and if I can put them in the budget, I would be happy to add > >>any interesting sensors (I would like to add accelrometers, but haven't > >>found a source for them). > >... > > Why aren't you using EGT ? Is that only good for fixed load (e.g. > airplane) operation? > > Tom Cloud In talking to a couple of engine builders and dyno facilities in the past, they generally use EGT for two reasons: 1- to make sure they don't exceed the maximum temp. spec for a given engine and; 2- They use it as a difinitive test to show A/F ratio variance from cylinder to cylinder (i.e. cylinder to cylinder distribution), which is of course very significant to achieving good power. In every application I have seen, EGT temp is only used under steady state conditions, maybe because of the time constant of thermocouples? (just a guess) ------------------------------ From: Thor Johnson Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 22:27:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: More Injector questions ;) For my "yet another Injector Question:" How fast can I trun on/off an injector using just a power mosfet (no NS??? Inj Drive Controllers)? I sized the inj @ top RPM (the power curves have been lost last year, so I'm just thinkin "worst case"), and want to make sure I can idle ok or if I need an "idle injector" sitting there, doing nothing (just about ;). Thor Johnson johnsont@xxx.edu http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont Have you seen the WarpMap lately? http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont/warpmap ------------------------------ From: Roger Heflin Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 21:49:18 -0600 Subject: Heated O2 sensor question Hello, I have a TPI car that I am about to add headers to, the O2 sensors that it currently has are the 1 wire type. I am planing on putting in the heated 3 wire type. I have read as much info as I could find in heated O2 sensors, and found out there where two types, 1 type that will work off 12 V and 1 type that needs 10 volts for the heater and will burn out with 12V. I understand the the 10volt type is more expensive. I need to know if there is a way to tell the 10volt type from the 12 volt type. The ones that I have supposely have came from ACCEL and have a part number of 74761 written on the bag, and has a 5J8 stamped on the sensor itself. The sensors itself has 2 white wires, and 1 black wire. The resistance between the 2 white wires (for the heater) is 6 ohms cold. If anyone knows which kind these are, or about how much one of the 10volt types would cost, or what the resistance of a normal sensor is or the resistance of the 10 volt type is, that would probably help me determine which kind the ones I have are. If it is the 12 volt type, is it just powered by 12 volts (through a fuse of course)? >From what I have read I am assuming that if they are the 10volt type, from they have a very different operation curves, and would probably not work very well in a engine setup for a normal 02 sensor, so I would need to get different O2 sensors. If the curve for the 10volt type would work ok, I would be able to setup the proper voltage for the heater. Thanks for any assistance, Roger Heflin - -- Roger Heflin rah@xxx.net ------------------------------ From: "Frank/G.speed" Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 00:13:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Lambda Sensors.... My understanding is that the current oxygen sensor used on mass produced vehicles are only good to tell you if you're at stoich. Other wise it can tell you that you're rich or lean, but it can't tell you how much. If it did, then the ECU can just make adjustments constantly and you won't ever need to go open loop unless something fails. Now, I don't understand the difference in a $5000+ Horiba oxygen sensor and a $30 Bosch for regular cars. I mean, I know a good sensor has a wide range and can tell you the exact A/F ratio. But why are they so expensive. Please, get techical if you have to. I'd love to learn more. When I first posted to the list couple of weeks ago I asked about the LambdaView (LV) from C&M Racing Systems. Frank Parker from the list told me last he heard it was not ready yet. I read about LV in 6/95 issue of 5.0 Mustang. "The LV is the first true A/F ratio meter that is affordable for the average Joe, costing only $650. IT works with both carbureted and FI cars and measures A/F ratios from about 10:1 up to 18:1, while the Horiba measures beyond these limits. However it is unlikely you will ever need to adjust your engine beyond the capability of the LV, since best power is made in the 12-13:1 A/F ratio range. Thus the LV does everything an enthusiast could ever need, at one tenth the cost of a comparable unit." - -- Frank M. Lin | G.speed - Z.Speed Trust HKS DC-Sports Razo/Carmate Soei fmlin@xxx.html EG2, 15.3 @xxx.info" u ssim I enirehtaC | Wanna try road racing with your car? http://am.net/nasa ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 01:19:57 -0800 Subject: Re: More Injector questions ;) I think the time for a saturated drive type injector is in the 2ms range, for the low impeadance types, I think that the time is in the 1.5ms range. Doesnt seem like much, but it is at idle... Also Bruce Bowlings has some great injector sizing programs (tons of others too!) on his web page. For the most part, the saturated drive work great, it is with big engines, turbo, etc where the dynamic range of the injectors is the problem. Too much flow at idle, and the like. Try bruce's programs, and you will get a good feel for the flow rates you may need. Sandy At 10:27 PM 11/14/96 -0500, you wrote: > >For my "yet another Injector Question:" > > How fast can I trun on/off an injector using just a power mosfet (no >NS??? Inj Drive Controllers)? I sized the inj @ top RPM (the power >curves have been lost last year, so I'm just thinkin "worst case"), and >want to make sure I can idle ok or if I need an "idle injector" sitting >there, doing nothing (just about ;). > > > Thor Johnson > johnsont@xxx.edu > http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont > > Have you seen the WarpMap lately? > http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont/warpmap > > > > ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #346 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".