DIY_EFI Digest Saturday, 16 November 1996 Volume 01 : Number 347 In this issue: Re: other lists New email list created for EEC discussion Re: Lambda Sensors.... Re: Lambda Sensors.... Re: throttle bodies for bikes re: Re: throttle bodies for bikes Re: EEC Mail List Re: other DIY automotive related list and news groups Re: Electrohydraulic Camless Valves Re: Lambda Sensors.... Re: Re: throttle bodies for bikes Ed Hernandez? See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: wrm@xxx.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 12:30:15 +0200 Subject: Re: other lists >From: "George M. Dailey" >Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 18:38:07 -0600 (CST) >Subject: other DIY automotive related list and news groups > >Gentlemen, are there any other DIY automotive related list and news groups >on the net. Like Home built sports cars, automotive controls, you know the >stuff that makes the Gurus drule. There's a kitcar list, kitcar@xxx. There's supposed to be an electronic ignition list somewhere, but it's been dead (or very quiet) for a while. email me if you need the bolis address, I've got it somewhere in my other mail account. W - -- Wouter de Waal Phone : +27 21 683 5490 Development Engineer Fax : +27 21 683 5435 CCII Systems Kenilworth, South Africa ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 07:05:51 -0600 Subject: New email list created for EEC discussion >Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 23:27:24 -0500 (EST) >From: Paul Nowak >To: EEC Email List >Subject: New email list created for EEC discussion > > >Hello People from Tom Cloud's EEC Email List: > >I just created a new email distribution list made up of the people on Tom >C's list of names. > >The address for the email distribution list is: > >eec-efi@xxx.edu > >All messages addressed to eec-efi@xxx.edu will result in email being >sent to all the people on the distribution list. Current members of the >list are those people appearing at the bottom of this message. > >To use the email distribution list simply address an email message to >eec-efi@xxx. Your message will be distributed to the list >members. When replying to a message, be sure to address your message to >the list and not to the individual that wrote the message you are replying >to (unless you want to reply to the individual only). If you just hit >reply in your mailer, you will probably end up sending a message to the >list and to the origional sender of the message which will result in at >least the origional sender getting the same message twice. > >In addition to participating in these discussions, I, along with Tom and >probably one or two others, will be moderating the list for quality. I >don't expect we will have any problems but if we do I won't hesitate to >boot people. > >To add or delete yourself from the list and for other administrative >requests, please send email with "eec-efi request" in the subject line to >me directly at: > >p-nowak@xxx.edu > >Please do not send administrative requests to the list. > >Also, I need some help. If someone will archive messages to the list, I >will be able to set up a searchable archive in the future. > >Enjoy the list, > >Paul Nowak > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > email: p-nowak@xxx.edu (313) 998-6725 (office) > WWW: http://eelink.umich.edu (313) 454-1962 (home office) > Gopher: nceet.snre.umich.edu (313) 998-6580 (fax) >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thanks Paul. I am posting this to diy_efi (Paul may post it too??) so everyone can know about Paul's effort. As far as my 'monitoring' the list .... I'm just glad to see someone with the time, desire, and the means do something with it. As far as archiving, I have a collection of eec-iv posts that I have saved (but not all -- just what interested me!), and I would be glad to send them to someone. Many of those posts were made on diy_efi, but some were made to the 'list' that I was keeping. Thanks again, Paul. Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: Frank Parker Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 08:38:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Lambda Sensors.... > My understanding is that the current oxygen sensor used on mass > produced vehicles are only good to tell you if you're at stoich. > Other wise it can tell you that you're rich or lean, but it can't > tell you how much. If it did, then the ECU can just make adjustments > constantly and you won't ever need to go open loop unless something > fails. That is essentially true but it does not preclude you from getting pretty decent info from the sensor since for a particular application, they are very repeatable and soon you learn, with a Gtech Pro for example, that the car runs best at a certain O2 voltage. Buick GN guys do this all the time with pretty good results. Plus you can tell alot from collecting data rapidly and plotting. A OTC scanner, especially with the older car computers, makes it hard to see trends. A recent vtec turbo project was pretty easy to tune by collecting O2 voltage @ 100 times/sec and plotting vs fuel press. This does have to cost alot either as there are cheap serial port data collection boxes or even Radio Shack data collection voltmeters for < $100. > > Now, I don't understand the difference in a $5000+ Horiba oxygen > sensor and a $30 Bosch for regular cars. I mean, I know a good > sensor has a wide range and can tell you the exact A/F ratio. But > why are they so expensive. Please, get techical if you have to. > I'd love to learn more. The main thing to know is that the Horiba is a repackaged NTK with the price doubled for a couple of decals. Horiba has marketing rights for NTK UEGO sensors in the USA. The NTK/Horiba is an excellent sensor but can not be read with a voltmeter but needs the interface box to supply a constant current to its dual cell design. The Bosch LA-2 meter uses the LSM-11 sensor, which alone may be purchased for about $140. It is a highly modified std O2 sensor made for accurate a/f measurements even in rich range. Much more in an excellent book by Ronald Jung, available from SAE, called "Automotive Electronics". LArge chapter on O2 sensors and all other auto electronics. Can get ISBN # of there is interest of group. Some of the changes in this sensor are the reduced flow( no slots on side) and the better tolerence to which it is made. > When I first posted to the list couple of weeks ago I asked about > the LambdaView (LV) from C&M Racing Systems. Frank Parker from the list > told me last he heard it was not ready yet. Still not ready I do not think. HAve not talked to Mike recently but he is a pretty busy guy and it is not a top priority. His idea was to also use the Bosch LSM-11 sensor. BUT all hope is not lost. I was working on a design and have curves from Bosch when I found out that Mike Licht of Modern Muscle, Maker of some pretty nice stuff for GN guys, is very close to a meter using LSM-11 sensor that will sell for about $800 and be the equivelant of the $5000 Bosch LA-2. I talked to him this week and they expect to start production next week. For those interested, you may call Mike @xxx. That is in MICH. Reference this list. The advantage of this sensor is that its voltage curve will match a std sensor and thus the car will run on it. Thus you do not have to add a 2nd bung likr you would with a NTK UEGO sensor. Just replace std factory sensor with the Bosch LSM-11 and tap off in parallal and connect both to car cpu and the external a/f meter. External a/f is high impedance like a digital voltmeter and will not affect the car cpu. Frank Parker > ------------------------------ From: Mazda Ebrahimi Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 15:41:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Lambda Sensors.... Frank/G.speed wrote: > > My understanding is that the current oxygen sensor used on mass > produced vehicles are only good to tell you if you're at stoich. > Other wise it can tell you that you're rich or lean, but it can't > tell you how much. If it did, then the ECU can just make adjustments > constantly and you won't ever need to go open loop unless something > fails. > > Now, I don't understand the difference in a $5000+ Horiba oxygen > sensor and a $30 Bosch for regular cars. I mean, I know a good > sensor has a wide range and can tell you the exact A/F ratio. But > why are they so expensive. Please, get techical if you have to. > I'd love to learn more. >From what I recall, the sensor is not the major part of the expense, but it is different from the regular Zirconia based sensors (I can't find my reference materials). The expensive part is the conditioning electronics that translate and linearize the sensor output. ------------------------------ From: Todd King Date: Fri, 15 Nov 96 12:41:00 PST Subject: Re: throttle bodies for bikes <<< From: lambs@xxx.au (Stephen Lamb) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 10:42:51 +1100 Subject: Re: Lambda Sensors.... ... Another option may be to get a set of throttle bodies from a wrecked FI motorcycle. A few of examples spring to mind - early 80's GPZ1100, Z1300 or Z750 Turbo. Probably not as cheap as the carby idea tho'. Should be able to get a suitable fuel pump, etc. from same. >>> Another neat (I think) option is to weld up a tubular tunnel ram style intake manifold and use a single larger throttle body from a small car; maybe you could sleeve the inside diameter down if necessary... You mention the GPz 750 turbo- now there's a man's machine if I ever saw one :-) I bet you could get some really scary results by tweaking this beast a bit! As for injector flow reqirements, probably the easiest rule of thumb is to take your max hp and divide by two; result is flow required in pounds per hour. A quick check using a PC dyno program showed 300 lb/hr fuel flow at 600 hp for a turbo V6. It is a pretty accurate estimate. Todd Todd_King@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: SRavet@xxx.com Date: Fri, 15 Nov 96 15:37:29 CST Subject: re: Re: throttle bodies for bikes Todd King Wrote: | As for injector flow reqirements, probably the easiest rule of thumb is | to take your max hp and divide by two; result is flow required in pounds per | hour. A quick check using a PC dyno program showed 300 lb/hr fuel flow at 600 | hp for a turbo V6. It is a pretty accurate estimate. | | Todd Todd_King@xxx.com | Divide by 10 maybe? Late eighties vettes used 24lb/hr injectors to make ~250 hp. Just how big would a 300lb/hr injector be? And what kind of pump could keep up with that?... - --steve Steve Ravet sravet@xxx.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 16:06:33 -0600 Subject: Re: EEC Mail List >Tom, What is the EEC-efi mail list? Thanks, Orin > It is a discussion group for Ford EEC-IV. Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: Phil Dorman Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 05:52:32 -0800 Subject: Re: other DIY automotive related list and news groups George M. Dailey wrote: > Gentlemen, are there any other DIY automotive related list and news groups > on the net. Like Home built sports cars, automotive controls, you know the > stuff that makes the Gurus drule. Try the McMod as per URL below. Also at http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/3930 in USA. - -- Phil (Mig Pilot) Convenor-Motorcycle Modifiers Register of Australia at http://users.hunterlink.net.au/~ddped/mcmodrau.htm Member-Russian Motorcycle Owner's Association at http://users.hunterlink.net.au/~ddped/rmoa/index.html ------------------------------ From: jac@xxx.us Date: Fri, 15 Nov 96 16:08:12 PST Subject: Re: Electrohydraulic Camless Valves Dan, your copy of the article is in the mail john carroll On Thu, 14 Nov 96 08:59:12 dzorde@xxx.au wrote: > > Can't find the magazine anywhere in the local newsagents in OZ, is it > available somewhere on the web ? Or could someone possibly scan it > and email it to me (it can't be considered breach of copyright if the > magazine is not available in the first place). > > Dan dzorde@xxx.au > > >______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ >Subject: Electrohydraulic Camless Valves >Author: diy_efi@xxx.edu at INTERNET >Date: 11/12/96 11:53 PM > > > >There was a thread a few months ago about electrically controlled valves. > > >The November 7 issue of MACHINE DESIGN magazine has an article about Ford's >effor ts in that direction. The article claims they can operate 16 valves with >125 wat ts plus some hydraulic power.. > >The concept is elegant. My complements to the designers. > >With a small electric blower on the intake manifold they should be able to do >awa y with the electric starter, No cam shaft or gearing is needed. The >battery siz e can be reduced. > >Everyone should find a copy of this article. I bet we will see more of this in >t he future. > > >john carroll >------------------------------------- >jac@xxx.us > 11/13/96 00:11:33 > > > > - ------------------------------------- jac@xxx.us 11/15/96 16:08:12 ------------------------------ From: "John Faubion" Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 21:35:28 -0600 Subject: Re: Lambda Sensors.... > In every application I have seen, EGT temp is only used under steady > state conditions, maybe because of the time constant of thermocouples? Well the faster kart racers use EGT almost exclusively. Of course we're not injected but we still use them to tune. ------------------------------ From: "John Faubion" Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 21:51:23 -0600 Subject: Re: Re: throttle bodies for bikes > Divide by 10 maybe? Late eighties vettes used 24lb/hr injectors to make > ~250 hp. Just how big would a 300lb/hr injector be? And what kind of pump > could keep up with that?... Steve he is correct in stating the horsepower is divided by two. This gets the total fuel flow in lbs/hr. The next step is to divide that by the number of injectors needed to get flow per injector. The 250 hp Corvette divided by 2 is 125 lbs/hr. Then divide by 8 injectors to get ~15.6 lbs/hr per injector. ------------------------------ From: talltom Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 21:30:45 -0800 Subject: Ed Hernandez? Ed? You still out there? After the nutball in camie jamies took to shooting up the boss at Ford I got to ask. They don't say who was involved on the news. I promise not to call you boss anymore!(I hear they shoot bosses!) ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #347 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".