DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, 20 November 1996 Volume 01 : Number 353 In this issue: Re: Lambda Readings Re: Air Flow Measurement Re: Air Flow Measurement RE: Air Flow Measurement RE: Air Flow Measurement Re: Air flow & such RE: Diff between theory and practice re: Air Flow Measurement Re: Air Flow Measurement RE: Air Flow Measurement Re: other lists Air Flow Measurement or Estimation and Fuel Quantity ATTN: Todd Knighton RE: Air Flow Measurement RE: Air Flow Measurement Re: Electromotive TEC-II? RE: Air Flow Measurement RE: Air Flow Measurement See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Parker Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:07:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Lambda Readings > > > > > Depends on what sensor you are talking about. The Bosch LSM-11 when used > > with a Motec cpu can control wot rich a/f ratios. The temp correction > > is in the Motec cal when you get that option. No other fi cpu I know of > > can do this. > > > > Frank Parker > thanks frank > but how does the motec cpu know the exhaust temp to make the alteration > The internal resistance of the sensor varies with temp and thus if you measure the internal resistance of the sensor( possibly with current to voltage conver), you can thus infer the temperature and thus correct for it either by using a 3 dimensional table or to use less memory, you can define the O2 sensor curve using a fairly simple math function, then use temperature as an offset factor to then pick the correct a/f ratio point. Frank Parker ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 07:27:49 -0600 Subject: Re: Air Flow Measurement >kleenair@xxx.com wrote: >> > >> >> Can someone guide me to descramble this? > > >i tried xferpro,(a mail-format de-scrambler, a must when transferring >thru some services) all formats with no luck. sorry. > I originally thought people were trying to encrypt or compact (I've seen this other places). Now, I still don't know. From what I deduce, it's an artifact of Microsoft Mail ???? Hey, I'll ship a copy of Educational Eudora to anyone that needs it. Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 07:39:51 -0600 Subject: Re: Air Flow Measurement >c'mon, you can't read that?, thats the first message i CAN read and >understand! after having 68hc11 code burned into the back of my brain, >this is REAL easy on the eye... > >Our experience in the HVAC CONTROLS industry is that a cost effective >air flow measuring station (one that low-bidder can sell), using >hot-wire, or static and total pressure, becomes REAL inaccurate at the >low end, as was mentioned in a previous responce. mass of air must be >assumed, and the duct runs must be of a certain minimum STRAIGHT >distance before and after the flow station (no turbulance?). as the >price of these stations goes up, honey-comb inserts can be included to >mix and straighten the air out as it comes around a bend in the duct. >(try that in a 4"dia twisting steel tube). with more cash, you can >matrix anamometers or combo pressure pickups in a duct in a grid that >samples the pressures at 9,12,16... points. granted, HVAC doesnt have to >be as exacting, but a blade-position sensor produces such a non-linear >percent open-to-flow relationship, that to use it, you have to FLOW the >setup to get a curve to track. (ie 10% open=35%flow). as you add "fixes" >to a simple manometer setup to correct for ??? the price goes up and up >and you've lost the bid and your broke cause you spent all your wad on >the blueprints and lunch for the engineer and your jobs on the >line...... >sorry, i drifted out of EFI and into rat race there. just another >airflow view from another airflow angle. > >lucky ECM designers get decent budgets for the controllers or we'd still >be cranking that spark-retard knob. > I wrote that seemed t'me one could deduce air flow (and hence mass) from TPS, BAP and MAP. Someone said I was reel smart (tanx). Then someone else said had to have air temp (oops). Well, what I didn't say .... just cause it "seems t'me" doesn't mean it'll fly. I mean, if it was such a wonderful idea (mine, above, that is), why doesn't Dee-troit use it? Is it just not good enough to allow EPA certification?? I didn't say it ... didn't know .... wanted to hear what others thought, but, assuming you account for the (I assume sine/cosine) relationship of the throttle non-linear opening characteristic, you'd still have the turbulence at different pressures and other probs I can't even imagine .... would this really work? Still seems to me (I'm still fishing for a definitive answer) that TPS, BAP, MAP and TEMP (IAT) would give a very reasonable approximation (after correction for non-linear TPS vs. opening area) of MAF. No ??? Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: Anthony Tsakiris Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:39:49 -0500 Subject: RE: Air Flow Measurement >> Can someone guide me to descramble this? >i tried xferpro,(a mail-format de-scrambler, a must when transferring >thru some services) all formats with no luck. sorry. I've resent the message you're trying to unscramble. It looked to me like the scrambled version was uuencoded. (If you're on a Unix machine, check the man pages for uuencode and uudecode.) That format was entirely unintentional on my part. I'm trying for straight ASCII. Anthony Tsakiris begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(C,-`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@xxx.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`9 $```$````,`````P``, ,````+``\.``````(!_P\!````8P`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(P```&1I>5]E M9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``$P`0```"4````G9&EY7V5F:4!C;W5L;VUB+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=2<``````@$+, $````H````4TU44#I$25E?149)0$-/54Q/34(N14Y' M+D](24\M4U1!5$4N1415``,``#D`````"P! .@$````"`?8/`0````0````` M```#W$T!!( !`!D```!213H@06ER($9L;W<@365AC6NP$>`' ``0```!D```!213H@06ER($9L;W<@ M365A# $````%````4TU44 `````>`!\,`0```!P```!A='-A:VER M:4!P;V)O>"YS/\`"@$/`A4"I /D!>L"@P!0$P-4`@!C: K R[0*#,Q,,%(\T`\8'$P* _GT*@xxx.!N M9S$P,Q60"PH7DO,,`1.@xxx." ^&]\ (%AT;R -L 3Q80;0;/4A<6@$`#\*A1U/'E\&8$D#$9R)"P@)R%U0*2C0 M;)\#(">4!" #\")P(&XAH#$*0&-K+B!Q*A!Y+A\*CPN1$O$M`C(%22=V?R#@ M&7 1\ (P(F$A0@xxx.1D` M;VLF82&1(6%L:;\XH#33(>8F<#1 $>!I`B#5*4!A!"!U"E!N!: -L.)D,?8H M268UECK!)R"Z50,`>"1(' 1*:%I9V@%0$%30]1)23==00(P: (@ M0P!Z5#50:T+ ! `R!1B1``%)L ```P`0$ (````#`!$0`````$ `!S#0T^K; MY]:[`4 `"##0T^K;Y]:[`1X`/0`!````!0```%)%.B ``````P`--/TW```! !"M:[ ` end ------------------------------ From: Anthony Tsakiris Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:45:26 -0500 Subject: RE: Air Flow Measurement >I think if most people who swear by MAF had a reference airflow >measurement to compare it to, they'd be horrified! I think you might be right. begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(AL-`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@xxx.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`9 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````8P`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(P```&1I>5]E M9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``$P`0```"4````G9&EY7V5F:4!C;W5L;VUB+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=2<``````@$+, $````H````4TU44#I$25E?149)0$-/54Q/34(N14Y' M+D](24\M4U1!5$4N1415``,``#D`````"P! .@$````"`?8/`0````0````` M```"VDT!!( !`!D```!213H@06ER($9L;W<@365AG6NP$>`' ``0```!D```!213H@06ER($9L;W<@ M365A# $````%````4TU44 `````>`!\,`0```!P```!A='-A:VER M:4!P;V)O>"YS4#``<0<0```!X`"! !```` M90```$E42$E.2TE&34]35%!%3U!,15=(3U-714%20EE-049(041!4D5&15)% M3D-%04E21DQ/5TU%05-54D5-14Y45$]#3TU005)%25143RQ42$591$)%2$]2 M4DE&245$251(24Y+64\``````@$)$ $```! `0``/ $``(("``!,6D9U2H[ M9?\`"@$/`A4"I /D!>L"@P!0$P-4`@!C: K 2The way I understand it, the flapper type AFM provides a bias voltage to >the ECU (with a range of something like 1v. to 5v.) through a wiper >resistor inside the AFM. The ECU in turn controls injector period or >duration based on air flow. I have wanted to get rid of the restrictive >flapper type in favor of the hot wire or film type used on the Motronic >and others, but people are telling me, you can't because it's "Digital" >and the L-jet is "Analog". What is the difference between a "Digital >volt" and an "Analog Volt", or did I miss something in Mr. Kelly's basic >electronics course? If you're confused about the difference between analog and digital, suggest a stop at Rat-Shack and pick up a cheep book (NOTE: I recommend little from those folks -- I teach electronics, and usually advise a healthy distance from that place!!!, but they do have a *few* redeeming qualities -- like they have a *few* good cheep books, and they are open on Saturdays -- that's about all). Maybe I misunderstood what you said about analog and digital? If you nose the difference, then it's probably possible to take an inexpensive A/D or D/A convertor, package it in small metal box for shielding, and convert one to the other to allow mixing and matching components and controllers. Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: Anthony Tsakiris Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:52:34 -0500 Subject: RE: Diff between theory and practice >At 4800 rpm I had a WOT fuel no of 155 to >achieve a CO reading of 3.5%, at 6000 rpm I had a fuel no of 170 to get a >CO of 3.5%. What's the definition of "fuel no?" Is that fuel consumption or torque output? Anthony Tsakiris begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(B0-`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@xxx.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`9 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````8P`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(P```&1I>5]E M9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``$P`0```"4````G9&EY7V5F:4!C;W5L;VUB+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=2<``````@$+, $````H````4TU44#I$25E?149)0$-/54Q/34(N14Y' M+D](24\M4U1!5$4N1415``,``#D`````"P! .@$````"`?8/`0````0````` M```"VDT!!( !`"4```!213H@1&EF9B!B971W965N('1H96]R>2!A;F0@<')A M8W1I8V4`[0P!!8 #``X```#,!PL`% `(`#0`(@xxx.````S <+ M`!0`" `S`"L``P!;`0$)@ $`(0```$$T-$1"-T,U1#@T,D0P,3$Y1#9",# R M,$%&1#,P-# T`!,'`0.0!@`8`P``% ````L`(P```````P`F```````+`"D` M``````,`+@```````P`V``````! `#D`H%DL%>K6NP$>`' ``0```"4```!2 M13H@1&EF9B!B971W965N('1H96]R>2!A;F0@<')A8W1I8V4``````@%Q``$` M```6`````;O6ZA4GQ;=-JT+8$="=:P`@K],$! ``'@`># $````%````4TU4 M4 `````>`!\,`0```!P```!A='-A:VER:4!P;V)O>"YSL"@P!0$P-4 M`@!C: K R70*#,P/&!Q," M@S05KV;V-1,,%(Q]"H (SPG9`H '"H$-L0M@;F/TL?00#0: B0=F4@@4-:3Q_@92!@"X!G M(6(SL"XU)2P@@ 5 -A_ VQ_<(/HW'] AX6<2`""!WR(?(R\>NB61)D4N*9\J MHR4*A5<1P'0G!"!T:,<@\P6@ M`(!U;04P,!$*A1\%L2'@$[ *4"%@=71PK3/@/PJ%"H5!`C!H`B" >2!4`#T``0````4```!213H@``````,`#33] %-P``+<;6 ` end ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:26:09 -0600 Subject: re: Air Flow Measurement Thank you .... I feel like I've heard the clear ring of reason in the comments below. I admit I'm a spectator, not a player, at this time, but there's much that doesn't add up in this diy_efi discussion. Among them: .. too much reliance on digital. Ask a guy who works in a power plant about SSR's (that's solid state relays) and he'll tell you they're wonderful ... some time, but that a *REAL* relay is hard to beat at others. Ask anyone who works with transmitters, etc, and tuned circuits about DVM's (that's digital voltmeters) and he'll ask for a *REAL* meter (i.e. analog VOM). I love the *control* digital gives me, but it has it's limits, and I believe the "wise" designer uses each technology to its best advantage. [If you don't understand analog -- LEARN IT!] Flame if you want -- I'm not (necessarily) advocating doing away with micro-pressers, but, my analog/LSI digital (LSI means large scale integration, implying no CPU, etc) EFI system from Holley seems to only need slight improvements to be an excellent system (Now, "slight" might be a real witch to implement!). .. too much voodo magic (means I don't understand it!). I'm a techno-freek. I wanna see a data sheet, read some specs! Where's the hard facts? Why do I have to pay $25 to read some incredibly dull, meandering, mostly useless SAE paper to find out what I want to know? I mean, it's not like this is a new technology or the volume is so low there's little activity. This is as bad as trying to get the Coke formula! There oughta be a 'cookbook' on efi, complete with suggested hardware (i.e. injectors, manifolds, etc.), controller and software implementations. (Dream on!!) You know -- if someone would market an "open architecture" (a la S-100 bus, IBM-PC) efi, I believe he could make a whale of a lot of money. Something that majored in simplicity and gave the customer source code (probably in BASIC) so he could build on what he got. If analog and digital techniques were mixed, the control algorithm could be simple and processor timing (if there was one) would not be critical. >>> What's wrong with speed-density? And what exactly do you do to it? >>>I thought it was just found by Air=K*MAP*RPM (where K is a magic >>>constant), but I'm naive. Am I going to get into trouble using >>>this? >> >>There is nothing wrong with speed-density, especially if you are not >>worried about emissions certification. > >I get upset whenever somebody maligns the humble MAP sensor and speed >density calculation! :) Let it be known that the ULEV Honda Accord >uses a MAP sensor and speed-density airflow calculation. > >After trying to get a MAF to work with a reasonable error over the >speed-load map, I'd gladly toss it out and use a MAP sensor except >that you can't MAP and EGR at the same time. > >I think if most people who swear by MAF had a reference airflow >measurement to compare it to, they'd be horrified! *************************** Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: "David Mcintyre" Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:46:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Air Flow Measurement Anthony, *Every* mail message you send out has a uuencoded section titled "WINMAIL.DAT." Please, see if you can configure your mail sender not to include that. Thanks, Dave On Nov 20, 8:39am, Anthony Tsakiris wrote: > Subject: RE: Air Flow Measurement > > >> Can someone guide me to descramble this? > > >i tried xferpro,(a mail-format de-scrambler, a must when transferring > >thru some services) all formats with no luck. sorry. > > I've resent the message you're trying to unscramble. > > It looked to me like the scrambled version was uuencoded. > (If you're on a Unix machine, check the man pages for > uuencode and uudecode.) That format was entirely > unintentional on my part. I'm trying for straight ASCII. > > Anthony Tsakiris > > begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT > M>)\^(C,-`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` > M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@xxx.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ > MD 8`9 $```$````,`````P``, ,````+``\.``````(!_P\!````8P`````` > M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F M;RUS=&%T92YE9'4`4TU44 !D:7E?969I0&-O=6QO;6(N96YG+F]H:6\M M=&4N961U```>``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(P```&1I>5]E > M9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F M```>``$P`0```"4````G9&EY7V5F:4!C;W5L;VUB+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E > M+F5D=2<``````@$+, $````H````4TU44#I$25E?149)0$-/54Q/34(N14Y' > M+D](24\M4U1!5$4N1415``,``#D`````"P! .@$````"`?8/`0````0````` > M```#W$T!!( !`!D```!213H@06ER($9L;W<@365A M``X```#,!PL`% `(`"<`,0`#`%4!`2" `P`.````S <+`!0`" `D`"<``P!( > M`0$)@ $`(0```#0P-$1"-T,U1#@T,D0P,3$Y1#9",# R,$%&1#,P-# T``(' > M`0.0!@#4`P``% ````L`(P```````P`F```````+`"D```````,`+@`````` > M`P`V``````! `#D`P(0/3>C6NP$>`' ``0```!D```!213H@06ER($9L;W<@ > M365A MK],$! ``'@`># $````%````4TU44 `````>`!\,`0```!P```!A='-A:VER > M:4!P;V)O>"YS M90```$-!3E-/345/3D5'54E$14U%5$]$15-#4D%-0DQ%5$A)4S])5%))1418 > M1D524%)/+"A!34%)3"U&3U)-051$12U30U)!34),15(L04U54U172$5.5%)! > M3E-&15)224Y'5$A255,``````@xxx.@(``,P#``!,6D9US"M+ > M>/\`"@$/`A4"I /D!>L"@P!0$P-4`@!C: K MR[0*#,Q,,%(\T`\8'$P* _GT*@xxx.!N > M9S$P,Q60"PH7DO,,`1.@xxx." ^&]\ M<&4"(&50(&=U:0VP( > (%AT;R -L 3Q80;0;/4A<6@$`#\*A1U/'E\ M(8 (@60@>&8$D#$9R)"P@)R%U M=VC_"? F(0!Q)J$%$!L@(YT0*2C0 > M;)\#(">4!" #\")P(&XAH#$*0&-K+B!Q*A!Y+A\*CPN1$O$M`C(%22=V?R#@ > M&7 1\ (P(F$A0@xxx.1D` > M;VLF82&1(6%L:;\XH#33(>8F<#1 $>!I`B#5*4!A!"!U"E!N!: -L.)D,?8H > M268UECK!)R"Z50,`>" M*-!N)G [, 6"Y0VP+B_@xxx.O(TH6D9<&QY*]8VL+\+@"N00J$" > M( = /.)M0P#M,C%T,8 T$6TV!B>1(' 1*:%I9V@%0$%30]1)23==00(P: (@ > M0P!Z5#50:T+ ! `R!1B1``%)L ```P`0$ (````#`!$0`````$ `!S#0T^K; > MY]:[`4 `"##0T^K;Y]:[`1X`/0`!````!0```%)%.B ``````P`--/TW```! > !"M:[ > ` > end > >-- End of excerpt from Anthony Tsakiris ------------------------------ From: Anthony Tsakiris Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:44:45 -0500 Subject: RE: Air Flow Measurement >Still seems to me (I'm still fishing for a definitive answer) that >TPS, BAP, MAP and TEMP (IAT) would give a very reasonable approximation >(after correction for non-linear TPS vs. opening area) of MAF. No ??? >From what I've heard in the industry, speed-density systems were difficult to calibrate in the real world (transients, part variations, part changes, millions of vehicles, etc.) It's obviously a valid technical approach. It was used in the past, and it's used now in places. Anthony Tsakiris begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(B\/`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@xxx.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`9 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````8P`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(P```&1I>5]E M9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``$P`0```"4````G9&EY7V5F:4!C;W5L;VUB+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=2<``````@$+, $````H````4TU44#I$25E?149)0$-/54Q/34(N14Y' M+D](24\M4U1!5$4N1415``,``#D`````"P! .@$````"`?8/`0````0````` M```"VDT!!( !`!D```!213H@06ER($9L;W<@365A`' ``0```!D```!213H@06ER($9L;W<@ M365A# $````%````4TU44 `````>`!\,`0```!P```!A='-A:VER M:4!P;V)O>"YSL"@P!0$P-4`@!C: K ("A))VVK(' @,V8$`&@+@&P(/ _OS*@"H\M5QT^%B$LLD8#8=LHX"01("%0 M(U%H,$$H(,\+@"/Q(2 +@&1U(9 IX&TG4',Q$ F +0VP`(%T^2GP"-U,J$>L#("CP'M:[ ` end ------------------------------ From: wrm@xxx.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:09:17 +0200 Subject: Re: other lists Hi all Sorry to bug you all with this, but I did have someone ask, and I round-filed his return address: >>From: "George M. Dailey" >>Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 18:38:07 -0600 (CST) >>Subject: other DIY automotive related list and news groups >> >>Gentlemen, are there any other DIY automotive related list and news groups >>on the net. Like Home built sports cars, automotive controls, you know the >>stuff that makes the Gurus drule. > >There's a kitcar list, kitcar@xxx. There's >supposed to be an electronic ignition list somewhere, but it's been dead (or >very quiet) for a while. The kitcar list is kitcar@xxx. I would assume you send a request to listserv@xxx. W ------------------------------ From: Anthony Tsakiris Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 11:05:13 -0500 Subject: Air Flow Measurement or Estimation and Fuel Quantity >With all of this talk about air flow, could some one please just give me the >actual working equations for calculating the quantity of fuel required based >on either the MAF or MAP or TPS methods. I need something to work with. Preface: The following is generic information obtainable from any textbook on internal combustion engines. Let, . ma = mass flow rate of air . mf = mass flow rate of fuel AFR = air-fuel ratio . . = ma/mf = ma/mf when the rates are integrated over the same time period, say an engine cycle or cylinder event AFRs = stoichiometric air-fuel ratio L = relative air-fuel ratio (relative to stiochiometry) = lambda = AFR/AFRs (L < 1 means rich, L > 1 means lean) Then, mf = ma/AFR = ma/(L*AFRs) L is an independent variable with a value determined based on what the requirement of the engine is (torque, fuel economy, emissions, ...). AFRs is a characteristic of the type of fuel, typically taken to be ~14.7 for air and gasoline. So ma is needed in order to determine mf. ma can be measured directly or estimated. ma and mf should be consistent in time and location. Helpful? Anthony Tsakiris begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(@X0`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@xxx.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`9 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````8P`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(P```&1I>5]E M9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``$P`0```"4````G9&EY7V5F:4!C;W5L;VUB+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=2<``````@$+, $````H````4TU44#I$25E?149)0$-/54Q/34(N14Y' M+D](24\M4U1!5$4N1415``,``#D`````"P! .@$````"`?8/`0````0````` M```"VDT!!( !`#4```!!:7(@1FQO=R!-96%S=7)E;65N="!O0`````"`7$``0```!8````!N];\G*#% MMTZ%0M@1T)UK`""OTP0$```>`!X,`0````4```!33510`````!X`'PP!```` M' ```&%T'YF,P,`!Q!] M`P``'@`($ $```!E````5TE42$%,3$]&5$A)4U1!3$M!0D]55$%)4D9,3U_P`*`0\"%0*D`^0%ZP*#`% 3`U0"`&-H"L!S971N,@8` M!L,"@S($1@(`<,QR<1$1$;4Q( A5![+]`H!]"H (SPG9`H *@0VQ@0M@;F$M$@GP'B =,";Q*1Q,-1(`+"D<("D&'F!A(/X] M-+$$$1P2(R @<@xxx.1,90<8'ECWRW1!;!!WRZB12!L M"X $@xxx.G\S>DR?-Y$60"%R'D%* M+" H3#?G*$$Q,DEV>2D^&3>@xxx.A$O2,)%JO(H2_ \(!1P!X & M(BQ1-F@<4$OP/E+7'7%N*?LI'"L!;C,^-W51@CV_/33]4I J2,)4S4OP&O$# MD43,VKU^@! $@DAQ0 M+F.0*2D-_TC#6I(<8!'!'U$&<3$Q+'#_8 4B@$/ (J8<4&;!+& :85DO<6%K M/Y([1F(=`'[P,30N-R#3&](``#T``0````$````````` *`P`--/TW``#OJPMS ` end ------------------------------ From: Paul.J.Timmerman@xxx.gov Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:57:27 -0800 Subject: ATTN: Todd Knighton Todd, Has your website moved? I was going to email you about some EFI stuff and my bookmark is now bogus. Please update me. paul timmerman ------------------------------ From: Anthony Tsakiris Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 12:00:01 -0500 Subject: RE: Air Flow Measurement Carburetors work just fine too for most purposes. Speaking just of the mass produced vehicle market, today's customers want all sorts of additional functionality. They want ABS and traction control and variable rate power steering and high fuel economy, and the government wants low emissions. Design implementation is a direct result of the user's requirements. > activity. This is as bad as trying to get the Coke formula! > There oughta be a 'cookbook' on efi, complete with suggested > hardware (i.e. injectors, manifolds, etc.), controller and > software implementations. (Dream on!!) Perhaps it's this difficult precisely because it is a huge capitalistic venture. The formula for Coke is probably not a huge technical surprise, but keeping it a secret maintains its value. >You know -- if someone would market an "open architecture" (a la S-100 >bus, IBM-PC) efi, I believe he could make a whale of a lot of money. Most drivers just want to get in the car and drive. The number of people who care more about how the engine works than about how many doors the mini-van has is very (sadly) small I'd wager. >Something that majored in simplicity and gave the customer source code >(probably in BASIC) so he could build on what he got. There are all sorts of non-technical issues with that. For instance, who would be legal liable. Aaaaaaaaaaanyway. Anthony Tsakiris begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(@(1`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@xxx.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`9 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````8P`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(P```&1I>5]E M9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``$P`0```"4````G9&EY7V5F:4!C;W5L;VUB+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=2<``````@$+, $````H````4TU44#I$25E?149)0$-/54Q/34(N14Y' M+D](24\M4U1!5$4N1415``,``#D`````"P! .@$````"`?8/`0````0````` M```"VDT!!( !`!D```!213H@06ER($9L;W<@365A`' ``0```!D```!213H@06ER($9L;W<@ M365A# $````%````4TU44 `````>`!\,`0```!P```!A='-A:VER M:4!P;V)O>"YSL"@P!0$P-4`@!C: K 0+D(@!@!P96%K"X!GTQW#"H5O9AY@:!Y0`, G M!!$4T 1P=6,)@"!VX&5H:6-L(8(=H!(`0BP>861A>2<$(&/_'>$#< 20'6$` M< 5 "H4'0!T#(',9$00@(3%A9&0X:71I`B '0!X0=6Y68R9T)F!Y'\%4(7!Y M.22404(%\ !P(F!T4"D0=!Y0 M_1]P=Q81'? )X 40(%$HPFDBH&=H)M%E`R %D6XY`W!Y+"3V*-(A<6=O_R* M!* '@"3!)*($(!D`!^#<96T$`2:!'[)$!Y LT/\#H =P"U P("]!*U I6 0` M?250("90&7 G$"LP!Y!U?FP%0"$U'> $D"/1&7!Q?G4S`2\R'[ *APMD%L%S M]#$X).8^&]P*H -@*V#W,S$XQRDB=B>&,J$RH@0@[F(F,#J"*0!Y($(=,"[ M7Q(`(5,(4",P'J)M,Y!A_B$UCS:3-U\X;B?2&7 A(+YU+. !D#JP'E RT"<% MH'<\8 ;@/& G(2 #H W :?\C8 6@,6(K80/P(6 ED$$0^SO0*_%D/2\^/S]/ M.,,1P89D)*! T2AI+F4?P/T+@&HS(1U!(V #@0:0!O#&9$E1$@!C+BE"TBH3 M_R+0+C-$;T5_1H\XPR6@`8 G2",Q7!^R*$09<&%M\4)A(2$I2XT<54N/-I/6 M4 20$ `B ?0V$(8$G@xxx.@"L 1L"9@,R$=`2+G2& R MT%I!4RT;0 IX8\\/9-\S,1SP25%)0DTM:%!#*4*424%A)W!E?R* ++ >4 6@ M9Z0\<3+0=_\1P"+1)@xxx.S!& >0">@ZVI_-II-'P)D!1 N\00@_QW3)*,[ MI0N (5-6L"XT<[/Y685N=0;0!) @R" `:)#_(M%P$!Z0=;$A@06P08$&X-]> M,7AP!^ A8@xxx.@ MSQ' .D,N\2@xxx.]!R<88V[TV,4R1!50'O M.W(1P 5 `,!J>0$B8'5!GP"0,6$BL">!*+-G86[A_W5S)!4ED0AP(D IX0VP M<9\;:X]-JBA;-W5!0D%3_DEM\26@;P@<\ ,0(F!"$07$B MT(3P`R _)W J\F%/8E\*OS9U06'?F-=\8"2@<7>7%4$",'AP_7QA5'Z0(#!= MP0M&%"$VH0N6CAB1`)W0``,`$! ``````P`1$ ````! ```#T``0````4```!213H@``````,`#33]-P``CAC7 ` end ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 11:26:39 -0600 Subject: RE: Air Flow Measurement > >>I think if most people who swear by MAF had a reference airflow >>measurement to compare it to, they'd be horrified! > >I think you might be right. > > >begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT >M>)\^(AL-`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` >M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@xxx.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ >MD 8`9 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````8P`````` >M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;FM;RUS=&%T92YE9'4`4TU44 !D:7E?969I0&-O=6QO;6(N96YG+F]H:6\MM=&4N961U```>``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(P```&1I>5]E >M9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;FM```>``$P`0```"4````G9&EY7V5F:4!C;W5L;VUB+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E >M+F5D=2<``````@$+, $````H````4TU44#I$25E?149)0$-/54Q/34(N14Y' >M+D](24\M4U1!5$4N1415``,``#D`````"P! .@$````"`?8/`0````0````` >M```"VDT!!( !`!D```!213H@06ER($9L;W<@365AM``X```#,!PL`% `(`"T`&@xxx.````S <+`!0`" `L`#,``P!< >M`0$)@ $`(0```#A$-$1"-T,U1#@T,D0P,3$Y1#9",# R,$%&1#,P-# T`!H' >M`0.0!@#4`@``% ````L`(P```````P`F```````+`"D```````,`+@`````` >M`P`V``````! `#D`P'C %>G6NP$>`' ``0```!D```!213H@06ER($9L;W<@ >M365AMK],$! ``'@`># $````%````4TU44 `````>`!\,`0```!P```!A='-A:VER >M:4!P;V)O>"YS4#``<0<0```!X`"! !```` >M90```$E42$E.2TE&34]35%!%3U!,15=(3U-714%20EE-049(041!4D5&15)% >M3D-%04E21DQ/5TU%05-54D5-14Y45$]#3TU005)%25143RQ42$591$)%2$]2 >M4DE&245$251(24Y+64\``````@$)$ $```! `0``/ $``(("``!,6D9U2H[ >M9?\`"@$/`A4"I /D!>L"@P!0$P-4`@!C: K MQC,$1@xxx.!N >M9S$P,Q0@xxx." ^&]\M( :0BB $8',%0'!E;PM00&4@=VAO( /@98D*P6)Y!=!!1B 1P-!D(&$@&7!F >M!) )\-9C(7 +<'(:\&\'X!U/IQY?'(H'@&%S"'!E!X!O`C @,"&P!:!M"K$A >M<&E%)Z(L(#%E>2M0"E1!1 LT2X*A2VL_R6?'.0N#3#O"K\4(25!'+X%&)$`-1 #`! 0`0````,` >M$1 !````0 `',*!G'P'IUKL!0 `(,*!G'P'IUKL!'@`]``$````%````4D4Z >/( `````#``TT_3<``,RV >` >end > And I quote: (I Cor. 27) 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: Neville Newman Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:47:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Electromotive TEC-II? David, You will probably hear from Fred Miranda (he used to run an EM Triumph GT6, rebodied to look vaguely Spitfire-ish, with a turbo rotary motor). He has some very strong opinions on Electramotive, and really likes an Australian system called, i believe, Autronic. -neville ------------------------------ From: "George Najarian" Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 09:57:22 -0800 Subject: RE: Air Flow Measurement Has anybody considered using an old-fashioned aircraft pitot tube hooked up to a differential pressure transducer? It will provide differential pressure without the restrictions and possible granularity issues of a large bore venturi. George Najarian | '95 Ford Mustang GTS E/SP (14.21/100.81) najay@xxx.0/93) http://users.deltanet.com/~najay/ Team.Net Team OS/2 ------------------------------ From: Anthony Tsakiris Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:02:21 -0500 Subject: RE: Air Flow Measurement > *Every* mail message you send out has a uuencoded section >titled "WINMAIL.DAT." > > Please, see if you can configure your mail sender not to >include that. I will stop sending mail (after this) until I'm sure that only the ASCII text will be sent. (Trouble is when I receive a copy of my own mails from the diy_efi mailer, I never see any uuencoded trailer.) Please accept my apology for prior inconveniences. Anthony Tsakiris begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(A<2`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@xxx.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`" ,```(````,`````P``, ,````+``\.``````(!_P\!````8P`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(P```&1I>5]E M9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``$P`0```"4````G9&EY7V5F:4!C;W5L;VUB+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=2<``````@$+, $````H````4TU44#I$25E?149)0$-/54Q/34(N14Y' M+D](24\M4U1!5$4N1415``,``#D`````"P! .@$````"`?8/`0````0````` M```##0````,``# $````"P`/#@$````"`?\/`0```%4`````````@2L?I+ZC M$!F=;@#=`0]4`@```0!A='-A:VER:4!P;V)O>"YS``,P`0```!P```!A='-A:VER:4!P;V)O>"YS"YS"YS`' ``0```!D` M``!213H@06ER($9L;W<@365A# $````%````4TU44 `````>`!\, M`0```!P```!A='-A:VER:4!P;V)O>"YSL"@P!0$P-4`@!C: K !S,3@@/@M&$O(,`3D4T&]T!9 % M00&1("K$178$D'DJ( # `Q&!!X%S86=E('D(8.(@$?!N9" (8 5 $<#1!"!A M('4*4&X%H VP]R!0$? >$&D"( J'&_\=#Q,>$2'@xxx.34%)3"Y$ M0?A4+B(B+R,_'8HF7R=OS1V/4"4P(,!E+" 1'\ ;!I ?TV,#D06@;F9I?F<( MQW@)/!O*3\J3RM:"X!CSPI #; D\!' ="XO[2LDTRDO M,.1)( /P;"[Q+\"6<" 3"X!G'P0H80& =Q81,T $`"DA``(P`Q%)?"=M(! N M,C-""H4"(&R&>3,Q'\!!4T-)-E#M'?!X!4 V`#T``0````4` 4``!213H@``````,`#33]-P``Z@/7 ` end ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #353 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".