DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, 27 November 1996 Volume 01 : Number 362 In this issue: Re(2): Re(2): Subaru Fault Codes Re: EEC IV? Re:"hybrid" efi Re: Air flow measurement Re: "hybrid" efi Re: Diacom Software for GM EFI RE: Device Programmmer Re: chip locater page re: Schematic of a GM ALDL -> PC converter Re: Oliver's ALDC converter Re: Device Programmmer RE: Device Programmmer RE: Device Programmmer Re: Subaru Fault Codes Re: Device Programmmer Re: Device Programmmer Re: Air flow measurement Re: Air flow measurement Your scan tool re: Air Flow Measurement Re: Re(2): Re(2): Subaru Fault Codes re: Air Flow Measurement re: Air Flow Measurement re: Air Flow Measurement Re: Hello...short introduction... re: Air Flow Measurement re: Schematic of a GM ALDL -> PC converter info about Honda UEGO sensor Re: Air Flow Measurement Re: Device Programmmer 84 Pin PLCC's Re: info about Honda UEGO sensor Re: "hybrid" EFI flow bench, little EFI content Re: Subaru Fault Codes See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Cliff@xxx.au (Cliff Tindall) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 96 18:30:04 +0800 Subject: Re(2): Re(2): Subaru Fault Codes neville@xxx.com,Internet writes: Cliff, Which motors are the EJ18 and EJ20? Are these flat-6 motors? Your mention of the Kombi conversion was interesting, to say the least. -neville neville@xxx.com The EJ motors are 4cly Horizontally opposed. EJ18 (1.8) was 16 valve SOHC(per bank) can out in Australian Liberty(jap Legacy)and Imprezor(spelling?) EJ20 (2.0) was 16 valve DOHC (per bank)(quadcam) and came out in turbo and non turbo. The flat six has the same bell housing (so I am told), and I have heard of some people putting them in, but with the output of some of the 4cly units you may not need it. The conversion was a fairly large job. (I did not buy any conversion items, or subcontract out anything except the exhaust system)and you would have to be very keen to do it.(or plain silly :-)) Cliff - -- - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Onramp BBS - Perth, Australia http://www.onramp.com.au/ - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 07:08:14 -0600 Subject: Re: EEC IV? >Just a quick question, What MCU does the EEC IV use? > >-- >If you have a problem with excess cash, mail all those >unwanted notes in plain packing to; > clint@xxx.uk There is an EEC-IV subset to diy_efi .... read below: - -------------------------------------------------- The address for the email distribution list is: eec-efi@xxx.edu All messages addressed to eec-efi@xxx.edu will result in email being sent to all the people on the distribution list. Current members of the list are those people appearing at the bottom of this message. To use the email distribution list simply address an email message to eec-efi@xxx. Your message will be distributed to the list members. When replying to a message, be sure to address your message to the list and not to the individual that wrote the message you are replying to (unless you want to reply to the individual only). If you just hit reply in your mailer, you will probably end up sending a message to the list and to the origional sender of the message which will result in at least the origional sender getting the same message twice. In addition to participating in these discussions, I, along with Tom and probably one or two others, will be moderating the list for quality. I don't expect we will have any problems but if we do I won't hesitate to boot people. To add or delete yourself from the list and for other administrative requests, please send email with "eec-efi request" in the subject line to me directly at: p-nowak@xxx.edu Please do not send administrative requests to the list. Enjoy the list, Paul Nowak ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ email: p-nowak@xxx.edu (313) 998-6725 (office) WWW: http://eelink.umich.edu (313) 454-1962 (home office) Gopher: nceet.snre.umich.edu (313) 998-6580 (fax) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 07:17:44 -0600 Subject: Re:"hybrid" efi Can anyone explain why I had half a dozen of these things in my mailbox this morning?? They had different _Subjects_, and I think I only sent one of them (?? mighta been more ??). They're all from the same address: argyle........... >From: Postmaster at argyle.crad.com.au >To: >Subject: Re:"hybrid" efi >Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 08:39:25 +0000 > >Hi, >Your message to diy_efi@xxx.edu could not be delivered as there was no one by that name here. > >The message has been forwarded to a human and may end up at your desired destination. It may however be best to re-view the address and re-send it yourself. > >from the Internet<->MAPI Gateway Robot at argyle.crad.com.au > > > Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: kleenair@xxx.com Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:38:44 -0800 Subject: Re: Air flow measurement This question is for Andrew Rabbitt and anyone else with some ideas... Through all the discussions regarding air flow measurement, I think we have established that using a MAF sensor as the main input generally results in some error due to air flow reversion. I have two questions: 1) What is the best way to quantify the error on an actual engine? 2) Most cars with MAF have some complex air chamber configuration between the MAF and the throttle body. I always thought this was for minimizing the induction noise at WOT. Are the chambers there to minimize flow reversion through the MAF? If so, what are the general guidelines for the size and location of these chambers in the air duct leading to the throttle body? I think these are simple questions. Does anyone have any simple answers? Best Regards, Mazda Ebrahimi ------------------------------ From: kleenair@xxx.com Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:43:40 -0800 Subject: Re: "hybrid" efi tom cloud wrote: > > Can anyone explain why I had half a dozen of these things in my > mailbox this morning?? They had different _Subjects_, and I think > I only sent one of them (?? mighta been more ??). They're all > from the same address: argyle........... > > >From: Postmaster at argyle.crad.com.au > >To: > >Subject: Re:"hybrid" efi > >Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 08:39:25 +0000 > > > >Hi, > >Your message to diy_efi@xxx.edu could not be delivered > as there was no one by that name here. > > > >The message has been forwarded to a human and may end up at your desired > destination. It may however be best to re-view the address and re-send it > yourself. > > > >from the Internet<->MAPI Gateway Robot at argyle.crad.com.au > > > > > > > > Tom Cloud I have received similar messages last several days. Makes me wonder how many of the messages are going through! Mazda Ebrahimi ------------------------------ From: "Curt Martin" Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:39:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Diacom Software for GM EFI > Does anyone know if diacom software has gone out of business? They used to > > Steve Trindade Steve, the name of the company is Rinda Technologies, Inc., the product is called Diacom, and as far as I know they are still in business. Try: http://www.mcs.net/~rinda/home.html Curt Martin (cmartin@xxx.com) Ormond Beach, Florida http://www.america.com/~cmartin/ ------------------------------ From: Peter Shoebridge Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:05:09 -0700 Subject: RE: Device Programmmer - ---------- From: Sandy Sent: Monday, November 25, 1996 4:38 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: Device Programmmer I have a dataman s4, it is kind'a expensive, but you don't have to lug around the laptop. It has its own batter, and is pretty small. The price was a bit steep, I think they still are $795. It won't however program pals, gals, and the like. I think another one that can be hooked up to the PC that is also good is from needham electronics, it looks like is could program just about any device. I think it is about $495. Yeah, I have the Needhams EMP20. It's one off the most versatile programmers I have seen. Two great things about it is that software updates are free from their web site and family modules are inexpensive at about $25 if I remember correctly. Later Peter Sandy begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(@L0`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@xxx.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`9 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````8P`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(P```&1I>5]E M9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``$P`0```"4````G9&EY7V5F:4!C;W5L;VUB+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=2<``````@$+, $````H````4TU44#I$25E?149)0$-/54Q/34(N14Y' M+D](24\M4U1!5$4N1415``,``#D`````"P! .@$````"`?8/`0````0````` M```"VDT!!( !`!<```!213H@xxx. M````S <+`!H`"0`%``D``@`1`0$@@ ,`#@```,P'"P`:``D``P`)``(`#P$! 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M-%!$979I8V4KD/,#8 G 86TW0 20'(\=DSPS-A\'%"(,`2 &22#S$< J4"!A M+[ Q<#1 MWT:2`U )X$^D/]%I!)4IK_U\?!QO5( 98!1;!`'* `````P`0$ `````#`!$0`````$ `!S!0 MF"E1L]N[`4 `"#!0F"E1L]N[`1X`/0`!````!0```%)%.B ``````P`--/TW $``"M>=N[ ` end ------------------------------ From: demo@xxx.net (Demo) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:01:03 -0500 Subject: Re: chip locater page >Someone emailed me two weeks ago with a web page that had a bunch of chip >Id's and replacements and I've lost the url. If anyone knows what I'm >talking about I'd really appreciate getting that URL again. > >Thanks, > >Justin "Tuck" Cordesman >SOLID BRASS-> Global Conquest is a Career Goal. > >"So what if it hurts? That's just one more way of telling myself that >nature hasn't kicked my ass yet." > -Tuck > > > I think you are looking for this http://www.hitex.com/chipdir/chipdir.html // Marchildon@xxx.net // // Alain Marchildon // // 1984 Mazda RX-7 GSL-SE Soon with Vortech supercharger "My toy // // 1989 BMW 325IX "Family car" // ------------------------------ From: SRavet@xxx.com Date: Tue, 26 Nov 96 10:16:45 CST Subject: re: Schematic of a GM ALDL -> PC converter Markus Strobl Wrote: | | | Does anyone have a schematic of a GM late model ALDL to | PC converter? By late model I mean the late 80s/90s | 8192 baud ALDL. I know the Diacom package has such a | converter and someone said it was very simple, but | I have not been able to find one. I'm planning to | write a win95 scantool, but need to be able to | talk to the PCM. The diacom uses one pin on the | parallell port to interface instead of the RS232 and | that would be fine. | | Markus | The Diacom software uses the parallel port to watch the serial data pin of the ALDL. It implements a UART in software. It does have timing problems, and in fact at one time you couldn't run it on fast computers. That's really the only way to implement a scan tool without any hardware, though, since the ALDL signal is an inverted logic level serial stream. It'd be pretty simple to build a little board with an inverting driver so you could drive a regular serial port. You can't program a PC UART to 8192 baud, but you can program it to 8228 using a divisor of 14, which is close enough. If I ever get the 5.7 running well in my Blazer, that'll be my next project. This'll be my first car w/ALDL. - --steve Steve Ravet sravet@xxx.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... ------------------------------ From: sebring@xxx.net (Jim Santoro) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:22:00 GMT Subject: Re: Oliver's ALDC converter On Mon, 25 Nov 1996 01:41:52 -0600, you wrote: >>>I've hooked it up to my VIN "S" '87 Camaro and it does decode most of the >>>values (rpm, IAC, coolant temp, TCC, integrator, TPS, O2 rich/lean, Loop, >>>etc.) > I've checked out Oliver's page and saw the Qbasic code. Do you know if he has published the schematics? I assume you have either bought one or built one Regards, Jim Santoro ------------------------------ From: Stephen Dubovsky Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:06:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Device Programmmer > ... I think another one that can be hooked up to the PC that >is also good is from needham electronics, it looks like is could program >just about any device. I think it is about $495. > I have the EMP20 from Needham elect. Was about $4-500. It does do gals/pals/uP/eproms/ and anything else you could think of in a DIP package (PLCCs and other packages require a small adapter). It has a parallel port interface which makes it FAST to program 8Mbit parts. Uses little $25 'cards' that remap the pins of the socket to accept different package sizes/pinouts. I think they have a buy 2 get one free 'card' offer. They also have free lifetime software upgrades via a BBS. Have had mine for 2+ years and have done just about everything (although the HC11 and Microchip PIC cards get the most use). SMD - -- Stephen Dubovsky dubovsky@xxx.edu 95 Yamaha FZR600 83 Porsche 911SC 84 Jeep Cherokee ------------------------------ From: MikeTurner@xxx.com (Mike Turner) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:37:22 -0500 Subject: RE: Device Programmmer I also have Needham's EMP20. The only problem I have had is getting an NT 4.0 driver. Works well for me under DOS and Win95. ------------------------------ From: MikeTurner@xxx.com (Mike Turner) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:33:38 -0500 Subject: RE: Device Programmmer I also have Needham's EMP20. The only problem I have had is getting an NT 4.0 driver. Works well for me under DOS and Win95. ------------------------------ From: Chris Morriss Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 18:23:41 +0000 Subject: Re: Subaru Fault Codes In message <110244.ensmtp@xxx.au>, Cliff Tindall writes >neville@xxx.com,Internet writes: >Cliff, > >Which motors are the EJ18 and EJ20? Are these flat-6 motors? >Your mention of the Kombi conversion was interesting, to say >the least. > > -neville > neville@xxx.com > >The EJ motors are 4cly Horizontally opposed. >EJ18 (1.8) was 16 valve SOHC(per bank) can out in Australian Liberty(jap >Legacy)and Imprezor(spelling?) >EJ20 (2.0) was 16 valve DOHC (per bank)(quadcam) and came out in turbo and non >turbo. > >The flat six has the same bell housing (so I am told), and I have heard of >some people putting them in, but with the output of some of the 4cly units you >may not need it. >The conversion was a fairly large job. (I did not buy any conversion items, or >subcontract out anything except the exhaust system)and you would have to be >very keen to do it.(or plain silly :-)) >Cliff > So you mated the Subaru engine to the standard VW box without a specially made adaptor? I know that this is more the concern of things like the kit-car list, but I would be interested to know how you went about it. Bye, - -- Chris Morriss ------------------------------ From: Land Shark Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:13:20 -0700 Subject: Re: Device Programmmer Well, I have the DATAMAN S4 I love it .. Portable, NiCd powered, and can run hooked to a computer thru a serial port.. I take my HP200LX along and can modify chips for Bosch Motronic in the field.. It's a bit pricey at $800, but IMHO worth every penny Jim Conforti 1994 BMW 325i 1995 BMW M3 ------------------------------ From: Chris Morriss Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 18:14:24 +0000 Subject: Re: Device Programmmer In message <2.2.32.19961125233822.009118d4@xxx.com>, Sandy writes >I have a dataman s4, it is kind'a expensive, but you don't have to lug >around the laptop. It has its own batter, and is pretty small. The price was >a bit steep, I think they still are $795. It won't however program pals, >gals, and the like. I think another one that can be hooked up to the PC that >is also good is from needham electronics, it looks like is could program >just about any device. I think it is about $495. > >Sandy > They now have a PAL/GAL adapter for the S4. Here in the UK it costs 195 pounds. The ad says that it supports a wide range of 20 and 24 pin devices (DIL) and accepts standard JEDEC files. Bye, - -- Chris Morriss ------------------------------ From: Todd Knighton Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:08:56 -0800 Subject: Re: Air flow measurement > Through all the discussions regarding air flow measurement, I think we have established that using a MAF sensor > as the main input generally results in some error due to air flow reversion. I have two questions: > > 1) What is the best way to quantify the error on an actual engine? We typically just let the mass air flow sensor think whatever it wants and write in a trim map, just like you would a pressure sensing system to compensate for the volumetric efficiency curve. As long as the condition is repeatable, who really cares if the computer thinks it's getting 10% more flow at a given rpm because of reversion effects, as long as you can trim the fuel quantity repeatably to a good output fuel number. If you're trying to use a maf for high resolution data aquisition however, you'll have to put a very large plenum between the engine and the maf to dampen out any reversion or pulsations and read only incoming airflow. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering ------------------------------ From: kleenair@xxx.com Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:59:46 -0800 Subject: Re: Air flow measurement Todd Knighton wrote: > > > Through all the discussions regarding air flow measurement, I think we have established that using a MAF sensor > > as the main input generally results in some error due to air flow reversion. I have two questions: > > > > 1) What is the best way to quantify the error on an actual engine? > > We typically just let the mass air flow sensor think whatever it wants > and write in a trim map, just like you would a pressure sensing system > to compensate for the volumetric efficiency curve. As long as the > condition is repeatable, who really cares if the computer thinks it's > getting 10% more flow at a given rpm because of reversion effects, as > long as you can trim the fuel quantity repeatably to a good output fuel > number. If you're trying to use a maf for high resolution data > aquisition however, you'll have to put a very large plenum between the > engine and the maf to dampen out any reversion or pulsations and read > only incoming airflow. > > Todd Knighton > Protomotive Engineering Thank you, this confirms my thoughts. ------------------------------ From: Jay Snyder Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:16:55 -0500 Subject: Your scan tool Would be interested in sharing the ALDL protocol info? I'm trying to debug an '84 Chevy Celebrity with the 2.5L 4. - -- J. ------------------------------ From: RABBITT_Andrew@xxx.au Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:11:42 est Subject: re: Air Flow Measurement >As long as the condition is repeatable, who really cares if the >computer thinks it's getting 10% more flow at a given rpm because of >reversion effects, In my experience, if you can get it within 10% across the board, you're doing well. If you have any flow reversion at all, you'll be in error by up to 100% (or more sometimes). Andrew Rabbitt ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.au Date: Wed, 27 Nov 96 08:30:03 Subject: Re: Re(2): Re(2): Subaru Fault Codes I presume that you don't fit the engines horizontally opposed, so how do you go with oil pick-up ? Do you re-baffle the sump and change the oil pick-up to suit the engine sitting in the other direction now ? Also, (I don't know anything about kombi's) does these engines fit into the Beetle's as well ? Not that I'm considering to fit one in a Beetle, but if it fits a Beetle, it must also fit a Fiat 850 Sport (and this I'd like to fit one in). Which brings me to the next question, does the engines bolt directly to the VW gearbox ? Dan dzorde@xxx.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re(2): Re(2): Subaru Fault Codes Author: diy_efi@xxx.edu at INTERNET Date: 11/26/96 6:30 PM neville@xxx.com,Internet writes: Cliff, Which motors are the EJ18 and EJ20? Are these flat-6 motors? Your mention of the Kombi conversion was interesting, to say the least. -neville neville@xxx.com The EJ motors are 4cly Horizontally opposed. EJ18 (1.8) was 16 valve SOHC(per bank) can out in Australian Liberty(jap Legacy)and Imprezor(spelling?) EJ20 (2.0) was 16 valve DOHC (per bank)(quadcam) and came out in turbo and non turbo. The flat six has the same bell housing (so I am told), and I have heard of some people putting them in, but with the output of some of the 4cly units you may not need it. The conversion was a fairly large job. (I did not buy any conversion items, or subcontract out anything except the exhaust system)and you would have to be very keen to do it.(or plain silly :-)) Cliff - -- - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Onramp BBS - Perth, Australia http://www.onramp.com.au/ - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ From: RABBITT_Andrew@xxx.au Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:20:30 est Subject: re: Air Flow Measurement > What is the best way to quantify the error on an actual engine? The absolute best way is on an engine dynamometer, with a large volume (1000+ litres) hanging off the end of the inlet system and a reference meter upstream of that. Other than that, you could use your closed-loop A/F controller to give you an idea of how far out you are. This is assuming that the fuel injectors are flowing accurately. >Most cars with MAF have some complex air chamber configuration >between the MAF and the throttle body. I always thought this was for >minimizing the induction noise at WOT. Are the chambers there to >minimize flow reversion through the MAF? I wondered that too, so we tested an inlet system that had a couple of helmholz resonators fitted as standard (same engine, different vehicle) and came to the conclusion that it wasn't going to help me very much. It changes the amplitude slightly and adds a phase shift to the signal, but I think they're almost entirely NVH mods. Andrew Rabbitt ------------------------------ From: RABBITT_Andrew@xxx.au Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:30:42 est Subject: re: Air Flow Measurement >I think tha's what I've been trying to say .... thanks. Now, when >you say 'closed loop A/F' do you mean EGO? And how would you 'learn' >off-stoich conditions (esp. power / rich and economy / lean), since >the EGO feedback isn't really 'calibrated' at that point (I've >assumed that it would still give useful, if not perfect, data). By closed loop A/F control, I mean using the EGO, as opposed to open-loop where you just measure air and add fuel to suit. For off-stoich conditions, you just go open-loop, but use all your VE correction factors (learned whilst closed-loop) to give you a better approximation of A/F. Andrew Rabbitt ------------------------------ From: RABBITT_Andrew@xxx.au Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:25:14 est Subject: re: Air Flow Measurement >Also, a while ago I read (somewhere) about a flapper system being >tested for introduction on some Cadillac engines. Each intake runner >would have a flapper in it (near the intake valve) that prevented >flow from comming back into the plenum. Alfa Romeo have experimented with reed valves in the inlet ports, similar to that described here. They were using it to improve the torque characteristics allowing the use of wilder cams. They have a couple of patents covering this and have written one or two SAE papers describing their work. Sorry, can't quote references right now. Andrew Rabbitt ------------------------------ From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:17:18 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Hello...short introduction... Gentlemen, could the "Scholz" converter be emulated with a Basic stamp PIC? GMD At 11:17 AM 11/23/96 -0500, you wrote: >I've just started working with a ALDC to RS-232 converter made by Oliver >Scholz (from the Fiero e-mail list) to start figuring out the serial output >of the GM computer. > ------------------------------ From: RABBITT_Andrew@xxx.au Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:51:20 est Subject: re: Air Flow Measurement > >Everything you wrote makes sense to me. Good stuff! So... what >are the disadvantages of speed-density (in your experience)? > >-- >Chuck Tomlinson > I've never played with a speed-density system, but from what I've picked up in the industry, the following brief thoughts may help: - MAP is cheap - MAP is calculated from several measurements, therefore the errors accumulate during calculations, whereas MAF is measured directly. It's debatable (I think) whether MAF is superior in this respect since temperature and MAP are easier to measure. - MAF requires manifold filling compensation, where MAP doesn't - MAP can't handle EGR since this increases the MAP without an increase in airflow - MAP relies on VE data which must be measured and which changes over the life of a engine, and from engine to engine. This can be corrected though using closed-loop adaption/learning techniques. I think if you look around, there are enough cars around still using speed density systems to prove it's still a viable technology. In industry, most things are set up on an engine dynamometer, so measuring what you need (MAF or MAP) is not a problem. For the DIY, it's a different kettle of fish. If I were doing it DIY (one day!) I would use MAP and adaptive learning of VE and force the engine to learn it's VE map at the appropriate resolution by carefully driving the car around. Then I'd calibrate the open-loop areas (mainly WOT). Andrew Rabbitt ------------------------------ From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:16:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: re: Schematic of a GM ALDL -> PC converter What's wrong with the 5.7 Steve? You can't program a PC UART to 8192 baud, but >you can program it to 8228 using a divisor of 14, which is close enough. >If I ever get the 5.7 running well in my Blazer, that'll be my next >project. This'll be my first car w/ALDL. > >--steve > >Steve Ravet >sravet@xxx.com >Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... > > ------------------------------ From: SRavet@xxx.com Date: Tue, 26 Nov 96 11:06:02 CST Subject: info about Honda UEGO sensor Since I posted the EFI reference list, several people have asked me about the Honda UEGO sensor that appears to be an NTK sensor in disguise. I looked up the original post (good work on the search engine, John), here it is: - ----------------------------------------------------------- From: Land Shark Subject: Honda UEGO Sensor... Cc: sian@xxx.uk Sender: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Or LAF sensor or whatever .... Part # .. 395986 from 1993 Civic VX, Cost $130ish Has same wires and colors as the NTK $600 sensor.. Same compensating resistance in the plug too... The UEGO body markings are the same as the one from Horiba ($900+) MEXA analyzer .. Honda wiring diags from Civic VX show same ckt. annotations as the NTK fax I received .. For heater: orange Vh+ yellow Vh- For Sensor: red Vs+ black Vs- / Ip- white Ip+ Now, all we need to do is to build a DRIVER circuit and we will have the DIY_EFI $200 UEGO sensor... Vs. $1000 from NTK, or $2500 from Horiba ... Maybe $250, with a PIC and a nifty display addon ;) Jim - ---------------------------------------------------------- Jim, are you still here? Any other comments about this sensor? - --steve Steve Ravet sravet@xxx.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... ------------------------------ From: Mazda Ebrahimi Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 21:53:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Air Flow Measurement RABBITT_Andrew@xxx.au wrote: > > I've never played with a speed-density system, but from what I've > picked up in the industry, the following brief thoughts may help: > > - MAP is cheap > - MAP is calculated from several measurements, therefore the errors > accumulate during calculations, whereas MAF is measured directly. > It's debatable (I think) whether MAF is superior in this respect since > temperature and MAP are easier to measure. > - MAF requires manifold filling compensation, where MAP doesn't This can be an advantage or disadvantage depending on type of fuel delivery systems. Most production cars use MAF with port injection, but I think it is more suited to throttle body setups. With TBI, you want to inject the fuel with the air at the throttle body, so no manifold filling compensation is needed. So I think MAF would be a little easier to calibrate with TBI. The reverse applies to MAP and TBI, where the MAP sensor doesn't sense the in rush of air immediately, therefore more accel (TPS) transient enrichment is needed. > - MAP can't handle EGR since this increases the MAP without an > increase in airflow > - MAP relies on VE data which must be measured and which changes over > the life of a engine, and from engine to engine. This can be > corrected though using closed-loop adaption/learning techniques. > > I think if you look around, there are enough cars around still using > speed density systems to prove it's still a viable technology. In > industry, most things are set up on an engine dynamometer, so > measuring what you need (MAF or MAP) is not a problem. For the DIY, > it's a different kettle of fish. > > If I were doing it DIY (one day!) I would use MAP and adaptive > learning of VE and force the engine to learn it's VE map at the > appropriate resolution by carefully driving the car around. Then I'd > calibrate the open-loop areas (mainly WOT). > > Andrew Rabbitt Thanks Andrew for your input on the flow reversion stuff as well. I will be flow bench testing a MAF sensor (0 to 5 volt dc output) and post the results next week. ------------------------------ From: Todd Knighton Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:26:39 -0800 Subject: Re: Device Programmmer Land Shark wrote: > I have the DATAMAN S4 > > I love it .. > Portable, NiCd powered, and can run hooked to a > computer thru a serial port.. > It's a bit pricey at $800, but IMHO worth every penny > > Jim Conforti > Same here, I love the Dataman S4, just wish it could program on the fly. Supposedly theres a programmer out called the Orbit 32 from Stag programmers that is just like the Dataman S4 but with on the fly capabilities, it's listed for $695, up to $1295 depending on bells and whistles. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering P.S. Jim, are you still at your address on your header, I've sent you a few e-mails with no reply. If you've replied to my old address, my new one is knighton@xxx.com see ya. ------------------------------ From: Todd Knighton Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 21:30:00 -0800 Subject: 84 Pin PLCC's Anyone know of any more Microcontrollers that use a 84 Pin PLCC layout. This computer I'm getting into doesn't have any number designations except for internal codes. It's off a 97 911 C4S. The chip is running at 15Mhz and the clock goes into pin 3 and I think 4, I see a 15Mhz wave at pin 3, but I looks like a land goes to the oscillator off 4 as well. Need to identify the Micro before getting into it any further. On the top with the Bosch type proprietary numbers there's a large lower case "i" assuming Intel, but looked at the 80c186 and 80c196's and although they offer a 84 pin package, the clock's in the wrong spot. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering ------------------------------ From: Land Shark Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 23:10:04 -0700 Subject: Re: info about Honda UEGO sensor At 11:06 11/26/96 CST, you wrote: >Jim, are you still here? Any other comments about this sensor? I bought one and gave it to someone to research the needed driver I think if there is enuf interest he might want to do it!! Jim ------------------------------ From: talltom Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 00:46:52 -0800 Subject: Re: "hybrid" EFI I hate to be a spoil sport but Holley has a system available that uses 2 throttle bodys like yours for a total of 1320 cfm. I would think you could do some interpolating and combine parts to get to this point. The neat part is that you're starting to approach the capability to make some real power here. > From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) > Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:52:45 -0600 > Subject: "hybrid" efi > > I've just had an inspiration .... a revelation. I'm fixing to put a > new motor in my Bronco, looking at lots of options. I now have the > Holley Projection 2-bbl 670 cfm. If I put in a larger or higher > performance motor, I'll need more cfm's. > > Does anyone have any thoughts on my getting the ford oem intake, > fuel rails and injectors and using the Holley controller to bank > fire them? I think the Holley now fires both injectors in its TB > at the same time. I could use a flip-flop to cause alternate firing. > Would have to build a driver -- doesn't seem too hard. I'd rather > use the oem intake than have to purchase a larger TB from Holley. > > Tom Cloud > > ------------------------------ - -- >>---------------------------------CUT------------------------------------------<< How long will it take Clinton's lies to to put him where he belongs? (he belongs in line for welfare as the door closes with a sign that says "closed due to lack of funds".) Let somebody who can stomach him support him. Don't blame me, I voted for Harry Browne! ------------------------------ From: PiJay@xxx.de (Peter Juergens) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:09:09 -0800 Subject: flow bench, little EFI content Hi there, someone ,as I remember it was Mazda, mentioned testing on a flow bench. Because flowbench testing is not only interesting for flowing cyl.-heads, but also for manifold-flowing (especially after EFI-modifications, I think), I'm interested in one. My question now: Is there a possibility to build up a flow bench on my one? Any idea is welcome. See ya and BFN Pete _____ 1962 TR4 daily -- - - / <> \ __,@_\____ Peter Juergens - --- '--0--'~~'--0-----0-> PiJay@xxx.de << Only the one with the fastest toy wins! >> ------------------------------ From: M HILL Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:35:25 GMT0BST Subject: Re: Subaru Fault Codes > So you mated the Subaru engine to the standard VW box without a > specially made adaptor? I know that this is more the concern of things > like the kit-car list, but I would be interested to know how you went > about it. > > Bye, > -- > Chris Morriss Is there a kit car list? If so could some kind person please let me know how to get on it. Martin ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #362 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. 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