DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 20 June 1997 Volume 02 : Number 209 In this issue: RE: plugs & hp increases Re: plugs & idle prob Re: Recommend a good `scope for viewing injector pulses?? Using a scope Re: Recommend a good `scope for viewing injector pulses?? Re: 307kW "Factory" engines.. Re: Re[2]: Hydrualic pressure to HP formula Re: Using a scope Re: Using a scope Re: Using a scope MOTRONIC 2.10.x Re: Recommend a good `scope for viewing Re: Using a scope Re: plugs & hp increases Re[4]: Hydrualic pressure to HP formula (Fwd) Cheap Speedo Re: Hydrualic pressure to HP formula Re: Recommend a good `scope for viewing injector pulses?? Re: Recommend a good `scope for viewing injector pulses?? Re: GM TB injector questions, HELP! Re: Recommend a good `scope for viewing injector pulses?? Fuel injector cleaner RE:86 Z28 Camaro Re: Fuel injector cleaner Re: Fuel injector cleaner See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Andrew Rabbitt Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:49:21 +0100 Subject: RE: plugs & hp increases > if the platinums run hotter then, if the system were at it's > limit, it'd start to detonate or pre-ignite (can't get that > straight 8^) .... > If you get pre-ignition, it doesn't matter what spark-plug you have, 'cos it's not doing much for you! :) > and combustion chamber design affects > things like that, so different types of engines could > conceivably not like platinum plugs ..... just a thought > I suspect what's happening is you're changing the burn rate, which effectively changes the ignition angle (sort of). Since most cars run retarded at idle (to maintain catalyst temps and reduce combustion noise), if you slow the burn rate down further (by changing plugs), you could fall off the ragged edge, hence the unstable idle control. This is just a theory, of course. Andrew Rabbitt ------------------------------ From: "Gregory Chan" Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 08:11:15 EDT Subject: Re: plugs & idle prob > > > Greg, > Those were Bosch plugs? How many miles on them? > I've heard of those causing problems becouse that tiny center > electrode receeds into the insulator over time. Not that easy > to spot at first glance either. > > Fred, They were new. This happened after I rebuilt the motor . gchan@xxx.ca > > > I had a problem with an erratic idle speed where the > >car would cut out at the lights. I spent quite a while on this > >problem and eventually bit the bullet and took it to a shop. The guy > >checked the plugs and quoted me the price of a new set of plugs and > >half an hours labour. I said OK and he replaced the plugs and the > >problem went away, the car's idle was rock steady. Of course I have a > >lot of aftermarket parts in this car. The guy then proceeded to tell > >me that through experience he had determined that those plugs don't > >work that well in these cars. My buddy with an Integra was having the > >same problem and after changing back to the original plugs his > >problem went away. Other than that they performed OK and no, I > >can't explain why that happens. > > > >You can draw your own conclusions from this but when my buddy changed > >his plugs and his erratic idle went away that convinced me. BTW my > >car is a Corolla GTS. > > > >gchan@xxx.ca > > > > > > ------------------------------ From: "Mike Fahrion" Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 07:31:47 -600 Subject: Re: Recommend a good `scope for viewing injector pulses?? > The Tektronix TDS210 is less than $1000 US and is a great buy for the > money. It has a 1GS/s sample rate and a 60MHz bandwidth. It has a very > good back-lit LCD. The unit is small and light weight. After the first > unit we purchased 4 more and plan to buy one for every engineer. > I can second this - we got a couple of the TDS220's (100MHz BW) and its a lot of scope for the money - very small size is very handy as well. Only thing I don't like (and maybe I should just find an instruction manual) is that it appears to always average a minimum of four events per display update - makes its single shot capabilities questionable - there may be a way around this I haven't noticed yet. If I was buying a scope for home this would be it. - -mike mfahrion@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Joe Boucher Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:14:15 -0500 Subject: Using a scope Being a mechanical engineer, I have a natural fear of electrons or in other words a little knowledge is dangerous. If you hook up a scope to something like a injector circuit are you suppposed to use isolator transformers or somekind of isolation circuit to protect the scope? Are these built into the scope? In Dallas on the first Saturday of each month, there is a swap meet for electronic stuff. It started out decades ago as a ham radio meet, but as evolved to a computer orientation. There is a lot of test equipment there including HP stuff. Can I tell if a scope works properly as long as the guy can turn it on? Joe boucher '70 Camaro, '81 TBI Suburban Bedford, TX ------------------------------ From: "steve ravet" Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:34:17 +0000 Subject: Re: Recommend a good `scope for viewing injector pulses?? > >Can someone recommend a good cheap,worldwide brand (we are in the > >UK) scope for viewing EFI injector pulse width? > > > I can understand the desire to look at the pulse shapes, > but can anyone tell me why measuring the pulse widths isn't > adequate -- and why measuring with a tachometer-like > analog (or digital) meter isn't really better ?? Makes sense to me. How would I make a circuit for my DVM that would make it read pulse widths from 0-100% as 0-12V? - --steve ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.com (dzorde) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 07:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: 307kW "Factory" engines.. MMMHHH, looks like I might be wrong about the factory fitting of the APS, anyway they are bloody fast. I ran a hill climb event in my HQ Monaro with a TPI 350 (no laughing please, this one does go around corners and stop very well, unlike most others) in it and the GTS-R put in a time 4 sec faster (but I'm sure that's because of his ABS). Then again he was 2 sec slower than a 427 Cobra, which was again 2.5sec slower than a D-type Jag. Anyway to finish as this thread started, there are still muscle cars being built today with the enormous power of the cars in the '70s. Dan dzorde@xxx.com >> > They still build the power machines in Australia. Get the new GMH HSV GTR, >> > stroked 305 to produce a 217kw 350 engine, get the optional APS supercharger >> > kit fitted and you have a 307kw engine with massive torque straight from the >> > factory line. > >As has been said before I don't think the GM factory will fit a >APS charger on the assembly line, and it's not a 305 (Chev), it's a >304 or 308 (Can't remember when they switched) Holden V8. >As for 307kW, I reckon this is underrated, I saw one of those APS >charged cars at our local street drag meets and it was running low >12.3 from memory, in a car that must weigh at least 3600lbs. Must >take more power than that. Either way it's till a $65,000+ >investment. > >Bye > >Ross Myers >Melbourne, Australia >ponty@xxx.au > >* Getting those who tell it like it is * >* Won't make the problems go away * > ---Jello Biafra--- > > > ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.com (dzorde) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 07:35:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Re[2]: Hydrualic pressure to HP formula Wouldn't this be quite an extra weight to put on a little go-kart ? Dan dzorde@xxx.com > Company called "Surplus Center" had a complete small axle assembly > with two motors and a pump built into it. They only wanted $700 for > it.:-( Would mount up neatly to go kart. They also had surplus > hydraulic motors, pumps, etc. > > > Terry > > >______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ >Subject: Re: Hydrualic pressure to HP formula >Author: owner-diy_efi-outgoing@xxx.edu at dell_unix >Date: 6/16/97 7:04 AM > > >I am figuring out the parts to make a fluid drive for a go-cart. Have >a couple of ideas for transmissions and want to try them out. > >Dan L > > >> >What's formula for converting hydraulic pressure into horspower? For >> >instance, at 24 Gallons/Min @ 2300 PSI, what's the equivalent >> >horsepower? >> >> 32.205 HP >> >> HP = PSI X GPM / 1714 >> >> Err, whatcha makin? >> >> Happy motoring, >> >> Steve Delanty (sdelanty@xxx.net) >> >> 1971 F100, FE390, T-18 4-speed shortbox. > >----------geoboundary-- > ------------------------------ From: Corey Stup Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:13:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Using a scope Joe Boucher wrote: > Can I tell if a scope works properly as long > as the guy can turn it on? Yes and no. By turning on the unit, and verifying that the 'scope has a trace, you can make sure that the HV portions are functioning (for the most part). You can also connect the probe set to the square wave alignment point and make sure that the basic input sections are functioning. The problem is that I've come across many a 'scope that had a bad input level switch in one or two positions, or a bad timebase switch only at the highest speed (where its not used very much, and the wipers are all dirty). Last time I went shopping for a 'scope at Dayton, I carried around a battery powered function generator that was known to be good, and put the scope through its paces. I've picked up gems like Tek 465B's and 465M's for $50, and was able to validate their usefulness. Older scope parts can be unobtainium or very expensive. ------------------------------ From: "Gregory Chan" Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:10:55 EDT Subject: Re: Using a scope > Being a mechanical engineer, I have a natural fear of electrons or in > other words a little knowledge is dangerous. > > If you hook up a scope to something like a injector circuit are you > suppposed to use isolator transformers or somekind of isolation circuit > to protect the scope? Are these built into the scope? > You don't have to in this case because the car is isolated from the AC mains, however, if you were working on a TV, you would have to use an isolation transformer. > In Dallas on the first Saturday of each month, there is a swap meet for > electronic stuff. It started out decades ago as a ham radio meet, but > as evolved to a computer orientation. There is a lot of test equipment > there including HP stuff. Can I tell if a scope works properly as long > as the guy can turn it on? > Scopes normally have a connector built on them which says calibration and generates a 1khz square wave@xxx. You basically turn the scope on and put the probe tip to the connector then check to see that you get a square wave with the correct volts/div. gchan@xxx.ca ------------------------------ From: "steve ravet" Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:15:48 +0000 Subject: Re: Using a scope > In Dallas on the first Saturday of each month, there is a swap meet > for electronic stuff. It started out decades ago as a ham radio > meet, but as evolved to a computer orientation. There is a lot of > test equipment there including HP stuff. Can I tell if a scope > works properly as long as the guy can turn it on? A lot of scopes have an oscillator built in to them that you can hook a probe to. It's usually 50KHz or something like that? Look for a little loop that you can clip a probe to on the front face, it'll says something like "calibration". If the scope properly displays the waveform it's probably good enough for automotive work. Also, Tom Cloud or someone else could probably tell you how to build an oscillator from a 555 chip and a 9 volt battery and a couple other things. You could carry that with you to test scopes with. - --steve ------------------------------ From: Andrew Rabbitt Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 16:31:41 +0100 Subject: MOTRONIC 2.10.x Can anyone point me out the address of the injector gain constant for the Motronic 2.10.x controller? All correspondence (and flames) direct please TIA Andrew Rabbitt ------------------------------ From: "Watson, Bill" Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 08:44:00 -0700 Subject: Re: Recommend a good `scope for viewing Just as a side note, let's not confuse 'Pulsewidth' with 'Duty Cycle'. Pulsewidth is injector 'on' TIME each time it is cycled. Duty cycle is the ratio of 'on' time divided by 'on+off' time. I'm just doing this to clarify because its easy to glaze over. And I agree with Tom Cloud, we'd see duty cycle on an analog meter. Sounds interesting. Bill ------------------------------ From: Fred Miranda Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:50:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Using a scope If you can find a storage scope, go with that. MUCH more usable at the speeds needed for most automotive use. I have a Tektronix THS710 and don't know how I ever got along without it. Fred At 09:14 AM 6/19/97 -0500, you wrote: >In Dallas on the first Saturday of each month, there is a swap meet for >electronic stuff. It started out decades ago as a ham radio meet, but >as evolved to a computer orientation. There is a lot of test equipment >there including HP stuff. Can I tell if a scope works properly as long >as the guy can turn it on? > >Joe boucher >'70 Camaro, '81 TBI Suburban >Bedford, TX > > ------------------------------ From: Thomas Wright Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:52:39 -0400 Subject: Re: plugs & hp increases Andrew Rabbitt wrote: > > > if the platinums run hotter then, if the system were at it's > > limit, it'd start to detonate or pre-ignite (can't get that > > straight 8^) .... > > supposedly, bosch platinum plugs have a more broad heat range than most other plugs. For example, the platinums in my car (I can't remember the part #) were a replacement for Champion NY 10 through NY 12. I wouldn't think that there would be a heat range problem with platinums. > If you get pre-ignition, it doesn't matter what spark-plug you have, > 'cos it's not doing much for you! :) a plug that is in too high high of a heat range will *cause* preignition. > > > and combustion chamber design affects > > things like that, so different types of engines could > > conceivably not like platinum plugs ..... just a thought > > > I suspect what's happening is you're changing the burn rate, which > effectively changes the ignition angle (sort of). Since most cars run > retarded at idle (to maintain catalyst temps and reduce combustion > noise), if you slow the burn rate down further (by changing plugs), you > could fall off the ragged edge, hence the unstable idle control. > > This is just a theory, of course. > > Andrew Rabbitt ------------------------------ From: Terry Sare Date: 19 Jun 97 14:25 CDT Subject: Re[4]: Hydrualic pressure to HP formula Uh, in my case, somebody gave me a 600cc Honda motor, about 60hp. I think loosing a few horses wouldn't hurt, much. Don't know about the orginal email sender's intent. terry Wouldn't this be quite an extra weight to put on a little go-kart ? Dan dzorde@xxx.com > Company called "Surplus Center" had a complete small axle assembly > with two motors and a pump built into it. They only wanted $700 for > it.:-( Would mount up neatly to go kart. They also had surplus > hydraulic motors, pumps, etc. > > > Terry > > >______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ >Subject: Re: Hydrualic pressure to HP formula >Author: owner-diy_efi-outgoing@xxx.edu at dell_unix >Date: 6/16/97 7:04 AM > > >I am figuring out the parts to make a fluid drive for a go-cart. Have >a couple of ideas for transmissions and want to try them out. > >Dan L > > >> >What's formula for converting hydraulic pressure into horspower? For >> >instance, at 24 Gallons/Min @ 2300 PSI, what's the equivalent >> >horsepower? >> >> 32.205 HP >> >> HP = PSI X GPM / 1714 >> >> Err, whatcha makin? >> >> Happy motoring, >> >> Steve Delanty (sdelanty@xxx.net) >> >> 1971 F100, FE390, T-18 4-speed shortbox. > >----------geoboundary-- > ------------------------------ From: "steve ravet" Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 14:42:13 +0000 Subject: (Fwd) Cheap Speedo Just saw this on the hotrod list, thought people here might be interested. - --steve - ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:53:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Hotrod List To: Hotrod_users@xxx.com Subject: Cheap Speedo Reply-to: hotrod@xxx.com In yesterday's American Science and Surplus catalog, I saw an ad for a speedometer. The text noted that the unit included a 160 mph speedometer, tachometer, odometer and resetable trip meter, and that it was all electronic. The units were not mounted. The cost was less than $4. Yes, less than four dollars. One or two of you out there might find They are at http://www.sciplus.com/, but I cannot find the speedo listed there. Frank Evan Perdicaro, KF6JGX Dainippon Screen Engineering of America BSP, MSCE; old GMC, Chevy&Hawk w/V 3700 Segerstrom Ave inhouse: frank@xxx.com, 714-546-9491x1258 92704 DoD:1097 ------------------------------ From: Dan Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:56:08 -0400 Subject: Re: Hydrualic pressure to HP formula Well, been thinking about some continuously variable stuff and using a computer to keep the engine at optimum RPM for load. Go-cart is a lot less to fool around with than a real car and you get a pretty good idea how well something works. Of course theory is even cheaper if you can think it all through, but hands-on is more fun and captures all those little things that the formulas sometimes miss. Dan L. dzorde wrote: > > Wouldn't this be quite an extra weight to put on a little go-kart ? > > Dan dzorde@xxx.com > > > Company called "Surplus Center" had a complete small axle assembly > > with two motors and a pump built into it. They only wanted $700 for > > it.:-( Would mount up neatly to go kart. They also had surplus > > hydraulic motors, pumps, etc. > > > > > > Terry > > > > > >______________________________ Reply Separator > _________________________________ > >Subject: Re: Hydrualic pressure to HP formula > >Author: owner-diy_efi-outgoing@xxx.edu at dell_unix > >Date: 6/16/97 7:04 AM > > > > > >I am figuring out the parts to make a fluid drive for a go-cart. Have > >a couple of ideas for transmissions and want to try them out. > > > >Dan L > > > > > >> >What's formula for converting hydraulic pressure into horspower? For > >> >instance, at 24 Gallons/Min @ 2300 PSI, what's the equivalent > >> >horsepower? > >> > >> 32.205 HP > >> > >> HP = PSI X GPM / 1714 > >> > >> Err, whatcha makin? > >> > >> Happy motoring, > >> > >> Steve Delanty (sdelanty@xxx.net) > >> > >> 1971 F100, FE390, T-18 4-speed shortbox. > > > >----------geoboundary-- > > ------------------------------ From: Chris Morriss Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 20:08:09 +0100 Subject: Re: Recommend a good `scope for viewing injector pulses?? In message , Chris Wilson writes >Can someone recommend a good cheap,worldwide brand (we are in the UK) >scope for viewing EFI injector pulse width? > >I just need something with reasonable resolution,that is cheap to buy and >easy to use. > >Has anyone any experiences with these cards for computers that allow one >to use them as a scope,together with grabbing the screen picture and / or >storing the information? > >Thanks for any help. > > Hi Chris, I use the Pico Technology ADC100 converter and s/w and find it very useful. I only have the DOS s/w which has a really clunky user i/f but the scope (and FFT spectrum analyser) functions work very well. The A/D has two independent channels of 12 bit resolution and on my 66MHz 486 samples at up to 110,000 samples/sec. The sample rate is easily enough for injection pulses which are likely to be in the range of 1msec to 10msec. The unit plugs into the parallel port on the pc. WARNING. It works perfectly on both of my own machines but it won't work on the parallel port of my DELL Pentium 166 at work. (It's a parallel port configuration problem) Pico technology have a website but I don't know the URL, it should be easy to find it. BTW, your email address keeps changing. Are you no longer 'Gatesgarth racing....'? (Or perhaps you are another Chris Wilson, not the Alpine enthusiast one!) Bye, - -- Chris Morriss ------------------------------ From: Bruce Bowling Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 18:12:43 EDT Subject: Re: Recommend a good `scope for viewing injector pulses?? > writes > >Can someone recommend a good cheap,worldwide brand (we are in the UK) > >scope for viewing EFI injector pulse width? > > > >I just need something with reasonable resolution,that is cheap to buy and > >easy to use. > > > >Has anyone any experiences with these cards for computers that allow one > >to use them as a scope,together with grabbing the screen picture and / or > >storing the information? > > > >Thanks for any help. > > > Just for kicks, you could optoisolate the signal from the injector, and feed this into your sound card. You can get the time from the chosen sample period. - - Bruce - -- - ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist Thomas Jefferson National Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@xxx.gov/~bowling - ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 17:38:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: GM TB injector questions, HELP! And to Peters excellent comments, I add the following: If all elese fails apply 12v directly to the injector from the battery via jumpers. Just for a second or so or you COULD smoke the injector. Also try to manualy open the injector with a straight pin. Be very carefull. Most, not all, injectors can be manually opened. This will sometimes free a stuck injector and get the juices flowing. Make sure ya got fuel pressure. gmd At 10:14 AM 6/17/97 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Greg > >Make sure ya got fuel pressure. You may have to prime >the pump with the prime lead hangin from the relay or >on the aldl connector. Let it run for a bit to circulate >fuel.. > >A can or two of injector cleaner in the gas tank >would prob also help. As the injectors might have >been sitting too long and gotten lazy. > >If all else fails quickstart in moderation. Unplug the >CTC if you really want to richen up the mix. > >Gl:peter George M. Dailey gmd@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Chris Wilson Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 01:00:34 +0100 Subject: Re: Recommend a good `scope for viewing injector pulses?? In article <3BjjPBAZOYqzEwjy@xxx.DIY_EFI,Chris Morriss wrote: > BTW, your email address keeps changing. Are you no longer 'Gatesgarth > racing....'? (Or perhaps you are another Chris Wilson, not the Alpine > enthusiast one!) I am the same one.I seem inundated with e-mail addresses.Nynex have me on a cable modem trial,I have a U-Net account,_and_ a Netcom account.Even I get confused :-) Thanks for the replies,all. - -- Best Regards, Chris Wilson http://www.maximum-bhp.u-net.com mailto:chris@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Aron Travis Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 19:14:58 -0700 Subject: Fuel injector cleaner Anyone have a recipe for home made fuel injector cleaner? Also, what do the commercial brands have in them? My guess is that they're mainly alcohol and kerosene??? - -Aron Travis- "always in a automotive frenzy" ------------------------------ From: Jennifer Rose Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 18:48:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE:86 Z28 Camaro >To: fiorillo@xxx.com >From: Jennifer Rose >Subject: RE:86 Z28 Camaro > >Hi Mike > > Project pu use a tpi unit from an 86 Camaro. pu has dual exhaust without cats - found on long drives in hot weather a code 32 (egr) sets. Believe stock location for o2 is in drivers exhaust manifold, mine is near this spot and works ok. If you feel brave can tell you how to disable diag for egr. > >Vance > Unable to send to Mike directly - hope he's on the list ------------------------------ From: Tuck Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 23:05:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Fuel injector cleaner At 19:14 6/19/97 -0700, you wrote: >Anyone have a recipe for home made fuel injector cleaner? > >Also, what do the commercial brands have in them? My guess is that >they're mainly alcohol and kerosene??? I talked to some guys at Bosch once about this at an engineering thing (they had a display with injectors disassembled etc.) and they basically told me that any of the cleaning products you added to a tank were pretty much useless. They told me that anything that gets through the injector gets through it so fast that it would be unlikely to remove any deposits on the far side, and that the screens on the fuel rail side were tight enough that nothing that could get through them could stick the injector open. Justin "Tuck" Cordesman SOLID BRASS-> The Price of Sin is Eternal Damnation. Paid In Full. ------------------------------ From: Fred Miranda Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 23:00:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Fuel injector cleaner >I talked to some guys at Bosch once about this at an engineering thing >(they had a display with injectors disassembled etc.) and they basically >told me that any of the cleaning products you added to a tank were pretty >much useless. They told me that anything that gets through the injector >gets through it so fast that it would be unlikely to remove any deposits on >the far side, and that the screens on the fuel rail side were tight enough >that nothing that could get through them could stick the injector open. Well, isn't that just like saying the gas gets through it so fast that no deposits can form in the first place. Surely if deposits can form slowly over time, they can be removed over time(hopefully less) with the proper solvent. Fred ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #209 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".