DIY_EFI Digest Saturday, 21 June 1997 Volume 02 : Number 210 In this issue: RE: Ignition Coil Drive Circuit 332 PWA's? Re: Fuel injector cleaner Attention GM TBI experts Diacom weirdness & questions Re: Fuel injector cleaner Re: Fuel injector cleaner Re: Fuel injector cleaner CNG Injectors CNG Injectors RE: Diacom weirdness & questions Re: Attention GM TBI experts Re: (Fwd) Cheap Speedo Re: 332 PWA's? Re: (Fwd) Cheap Speedo Re: (Fwd) Cheap Speedo RE: Fuel injector cleaner Unusual problem with LH 2.2 system Re: Unusual problem with LH 2.2 system Re: Unusual problem with LH 2.2 system plugs-- EDS maybe See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bob Huish" Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 03:48:27 -0800 Subject: RE: Ignition Coil Drive Circuit I started building and using CD ign. systems in the late 50's. The two main advantages were extended point life, (no longer and issue) and a much hotter spark to ignite the fuel at 8000 rpms. A side benefit (for me that is) was the ability to increase the plug gap to .075 which not only increased HP, but gave large increases in fuel mileage. The CD systems normally dumped 450 volts across the coil to ~ 3000 rpms then the inverter output would taper off to 225 volts @ 8000 rpm's (8 cyl). Stock coils had a tendency to "smoke" and the early xisor coils as well. (many were rated @ between 250 and 400:1 turns ratios) Post 70's coils work well and improvements in transformers and their drive transistors made the CD voltages more consistent (400-300volts), across the 0-8000 rpm range. Presently most if not all, major ignition component mfgs, Accel, Edlebrock, Jacobs, Mallory, MSD make CD type systems. Many touting their ability to tailor the output voltage to engine load. The desirability of this feature is open for discussion. About 10 years ago I tested three different types of systems, an "old Mallory Mag Spark, MSD CD, and a dual coil system. Starting, mid range and short burst to 7000 rpm's, they all worked well, but according to the "seat of the pants" meter (and sort of stop watch verified) the dual coil performed best, followed by the Mag Spark and lastly the MSD. Note: All out performed the stock xistor system. It should be noted that any improvement to spark generation requires top quality wires and special attention to their routing, mounting insulators and connections at both ends. A top quality cap and rotor assembly is needed too. Bob Cuda-65 - Angels Camp, Calif. cudabob@xxx.com http://www.goldrush.com/~rhuish/ ------------------------------ From: "Bob Huish" Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 03:48:27 -0800 Subject: 332 PWA's? Ok, I'm ready to start building a couple of 332 efi systems, but have been unable to view / print the PWA layouts. And of course, without layouts I can't make or have made the necessary PWAs. The file types "apt, drl, gbl, gml, ord and tol" are all undecipherable to my system so I must assume there is a program /s I need to down load, to generate the PWA layouts. This brings up a series of questions: What is the name of the program/s to generate layouts? Are they available for download, if so, where? It would be easier if the PWAs' were available, are they? Any information will be appreciated. Bob Cuda-65 - Angels Camp, Calif. cudabob@xxx.com http://www.goldrush.com/~rhuish/ ------------------------------ From: Barney Ward Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 07:39:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Fuel injector cleaner Aron Travis wrote: > > Anyone have a recipe for home made fuel injector cleaner? > > Also, what do the commercial brands have in them? My guess is that > they're mainly alcohol and kerosene??? > > -Aron Travis- > "always in a automotive frenzy" Aron: Per Chevron Techron Material Safety Data Sheet, the cleaner contains 1% Naptha, 1% Stoddard Solvent, 1% Hydrotreated distillates, 8% Trimethy benzene, 3.5% Dimethyl Benzene, and 1.5% Methlyethyl Benzene. The balance must not be hazardous, as it is not listed. Barney ------------------------------ From: Greg Woods Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 08:24:16 -0500 Subject: Attention GM TBI experts Hey guys, I got another question about GM TBI. The '86 version of my GM TBI is a speed density type system. However, their is no MAT sensor on the computer. Isn't this a vital part of the equation? The 2.8L S10's that used this system had a device called a Thermostatic Air Cleaner (TAC). This air cleaner system used a heat pipe from the exhaust manifold and some vacuum motor doors to maintain an air temperature of around 140 deg F into the throttle body/carberator. I currently do not have my air cleaner system setup for my recent TBI converion. I was thinking of going with some type of K&N system, but if the computer is relying on the fact that the throttle body is being fed with a TAC in making it's air/fuel calculations, then my options are going to be limited. So I gues my question is, does anyone know how important the TAC is in the 86 GM TBI equation? (If I remember right later models used an MAT sensor, can anyone confirm this?) thanks again greg woods gwoods@xxx.com austin, tx ------------------------------ From: txhartma@xxx.com (Terry Hartman) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 08:19:29 -0500 Subject: Diacom weirdness & questions Hello all, I have just purchased the Diacom s/w to use on my '87 TPI Trans Am. Here's the weird part. I can "link" to the ECM and read data only in the "diagnostic" mode and without the funky adapter that is supposed to be required for '86-'89 TPI cars.... The "ALDL" mode never connects and "links" to the ECM... And when I add the #91006 TPI connector(the funky required connector) I don't get anything in either mode.... So anyway, I call up Rinda Tech and tell them of my problems and they say "oh yeah, we were just made aware of problems on the '87 cars, we're working on a fix and we'll mail it to you on a disk next week". Now here it is 1997. Shouldn't they have KNOWN about this "problem" way before now??? Something just seems fishy to me.... Anyone have any suggestions? I would appreciate it. THANKS! T. ------------------------------ From: txhartma@xxx.com (Terry Hartman) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 08:27:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Fuel injector cleaner > > From: Fred Miranda > > >I talked to some guys at Bosch once about this at an engineering thing > >(they had a display with injectors disassembled etc.) and they basically > >told me that any of the cleaning products you added to a tank were pretty > >much useless. They told me that anything that gets through the injector > >gets through it so fast that it would be unlikely to remove any deposits on > >the far side, and that the screens on the fuel rail side were tight enough > >that nothing that could get through them could stick the injector open. > > Well, isn't that just like saying the gas gets through it so fast that no > deposits > can form in the first place. > > Surely if deposits can form slowly over time, they can be removed over > time(hopefully less) with the proper solvent. > > Fred FWIW, I use a "kit" that I bought mail-order from Summit Racing. Its made by Sutton. Basically, you disable the fuel pump. Run the motor to drain the rail(or bleed it off carefully), then connect an adapter to the rail and to a concentrated detergent in a pressurized can. Open the valve and start the motor & run at idle until it dies. Then just disconnect the Sutton hose & re-enable the fuel pump & you're done..... I have no idea if this actually helps keep the injectors clean or not though.... YMMV.... later, T. ------------------------------ From: "Michael T. Kasimirsky" Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:58:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Fuel injector cleaner Well I can't speak directly about cleaning fuel injectors, but I've used Chevron's Techron in my GSX-R750 streetbike to remove some pretty heavy intake valve deposits. The valves had crap deposited on them to about 1/2 the diameter of the tulip. I pulled the carbs to inspect the valves directly, in case you're wondering. I used one bottle of Techron in a tankful (about 5 gallons) of super unleaded, and ran two tanks of fuel this way. I pulled the carbs again and the deposits were history. FYI, other products on the market I tried didn't do diddly. Also, the gas was the same brands I normally use, so I don't think it was the fuel. The stuff isn't that expensive so it can't hurt to try it. Michael T. Kasimirsky ----> mtk@xxx.edu Days: Staff Engineer or mk4u@xxx.edu ASTM Test Monitoring Center Phi Gamma Delta, Nights: 1992 Suzuki GSX-R750 Pilot NRA Life Member, AMA Member 1990 Yamaha FZR400 Superbike Racer DoD #1848 1991 Suzuki GSF400 Bandit Mechanic WERA Provisional Novice #753 ------------------------------ From: "steve ravet" Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:41:39 +0000 Subject: Re: Fuel injector cleaner > Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 19:14:58 -0700 > From: Aron Travis > Organization: Frankenstein Automotive > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Fuel injector cleaner > Reply-to: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Anyone have a recipe for home made fuel injector cleaner? > > Also, what do the commercial brands have in them? My guess is that > they're mainly alcohol and kerosene??? An article in performance engineering recommends 1,1,1 trichloroethane and a stiff bristle brush to clean the outside. Don't immerse the injector, just scrub at it. An ultrasonic pen or jewelry cleaner and fuel injector cleaner (Chevron Techron) to clean the outlet. Stand the injector up in the cleaner so the outlet is in the solution and run the cleaner to 10 minutes. Run a half n half mixture of mineral spirits and injector cleaner thru the injector on the bench to clean the inside. ------------------------------ From: adevuo@xxx.it (Antonio De Vuono) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 17:03:20 +0200 Subject: CNG Injectors Does someone of you have experience with Compressed Natural Gas (CH4) Injectors? ------------------------------ From: adevuo@xxx.it (Antonio De Vuono) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 17:03:20 +0200 Subject: CNG Injectors Does someone of you have experience with Compressed Natural Gas (CH4) Injectors? ------------------------------ From: John Hess Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 10:18:36 -0500 Subject: RE: Diacom weirdness & questions They were made aware of this problem at least a year ago (on the 86 - -that uses the same ECU as you have- and the 89), that I know of. Here is the funny part. I have the Diacom Plus. I cannot link to the computer in the ALDL mode; but, can in the Diagnostics Mode. If I run my friend's Diacom (not plus) software, I can link in the ALDL mode with no problems. I then exit (without disconnecting any of the software) and run up Diacom Plus and the system remains linked in the ALDL mode. With this somewhat cumbersome "workaround", I can use the Diacom Plus in the ALDL mode. Advantages? More data collected faster than in the Diagnostics mode and the additional graphing capability of the Plus. >---------- >From: txhartma@xxx.com] >Sent: Friday, June 20, 1997 8:19 AM >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >Subject: Diacom weirdness & questions > > >Hello all, I have just purchased the Diacom s/w to use on >my '87 TPI Trans Am. Here's the weird part. I can "link" >to the ECM and read data only in the "diagnostic" mode and >without the funky adapter that is supposed to be required >for '86-'89 TPI cars.... The "ALDL" mode never connects >and "links" to the ECM... And when I add the #91006 TPI >connector(the funky required connector) I don't get anything >in either mode.... > >So anyway, I call up Rinda Tech and tell them of my problems >and they say "oh yeah, we were just made aware of problems on >the '87 cars, we're working on a fix and we'll mail it to >you on a disk next week". Now here it is 1997. Shouldn't >they have KNOWN about this "problem" way before now??? >Something just seems fishy to me.... > >Anyone have any suggestions? I would appreciate it. > >THANKS! > >T. > ------------------------------ From: peter paul fenske Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:14:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Attention GM TBI experts Hi Greg Even later S10s with MAT used the TAC although a wax pellet type to open the heat door. Mat is a very very small part of the fuel equation.. Closed loop operation should more than correct for it... Hope that helps:peter At 08:24 AM 6/20/97 -0500, you wrote: >Hey guys, I got another question about GM TBI. > >The '86 version of my GM TBI is a speed density type system. However, >their is no MAT sensor on the computer. Isn't this a vital part of the >equation? >The 2.8L S10's that used this system had a device called a Thermostatic Air >Cleaner (TAC). This air cleaner system used a heat pipe from the exhaust >manifold and some vacuum motor doors to maintain an air temperature of around >140 deg F into the throttle body/carberator. > >I currently do not have my air cleaner system setup for my recent TBI converion. >I was thinking of going with some type of K&N system, but if the computer is relying >on the fact that the throttle body is being fed with a TAC in making it's air/fuel calculations, then my options are going to be limited. > >So I gues my question is, does anyone know how important the TAC is in the 86 >GM TBI equation? (If I remember right later models used an MAT sensor, can >anyone confirm this?) > >thanks again > >greg woods >gwoods@xxx.com >austin, tx > > ------------------------------ From: Joe Boucher Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:53:07 -0500 Subject: Re: (Fwd) Cheap Speedo >From: "steve ravet" [snip] > The text noted that the unit included a >160 mph speedometer, tachometer, odometer and resetable trip meter, >and that it was all electronic. >The units were not mounted. The cost was less than $4. Yes, less >than four dollars. One or two of you out there might find >They are at http://www.sciplus.com/, but I cannot find the speedo >listed there. >Frank Evan Perdicaro, KF6JGX Dainippon Screen Engineering of America >BSP, MSCE; old GMC, Chevy&Hawk w/V 3700 Segerstrom Ave inhouse: >frank@xxx.com, >714-546-9491x1258 92704 DoD:1097 This is incredible. I installed an '89 Chevy 350, 700r4 and TBI fuel injection in my '81 Suburban. The only oversight I made was the speedo and speed sensor. I thought I would be able to pop off the tail shaft housing and replace the Hall Effect sensor with a speedo gear set and intall a speed signal device inline with the speedo cable. Wrong. It would have entailed replacing the output shaft and tail housing. This was a very tight budgeted project with a short fuse. The short term answer was to buy a speedo cluster from an '89 Chevy and plug in the wire harness and leave it on the floor. The AC signal from the speed sensor is converted to an on/off 12 volt DC signal by the PC board backplane of the speedo housing. It took a lot of crafting to mount the speedo in the current dash and mount the PC board behind the dash. All the after market speedo's were expensive compared to the empty budget. I think I know which company these are from. I finished a few weeks ago in time for the family vacation. Then this comes along. I ordered three. Joe Boucher '70 Camaro '81 TBI Suburban Bedford, TX ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:17:34 -0700 Subject: Re: 332 PWA's? >The file types "apt, drl, gbl, gml, ord and tol" are all >undecipherable to my system so I must assume there is a program /s I >need to down load, to generate the PWA layouts. These are typical files that are in Gerber format that lets a fabrications house make the pcb's > >This brings up a series of questions: > >What is the name of the program/s to generate layouts? Program that read and generates these files is PROTEL ADVANCED PCB. It is not a free tool, but you may be able to get a demo from protel (www.protel.com). If you are going to make any of the pcb's that I designed, you may want to check with the list, as others may want to get some as well. For the CPU board, I'm not sure what was used for the design. Sandy ------------------------------ From: "steve ravet" Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 16:13:20 +0000 Subject: Re: (Fwd) Cheap Speedo > It would have entailed replacing the output shaft and tail housing. > This was a very tight budgeted project with a short fuse. The short > term answer was to buy a speedo cluster from an '89 Chevy and plug > in the wire harness and leave it on the floor. The AC signal from > the speed sensor is converted to an on/off 12 volt DC signal by the > PC board backplane of the speedo housing. You probably don't want to hear this, but there's a company called JTR that writes swap manuals for putting FI small block chevies into Z cars, volvos, S trucks, older non FI GM cars, etc. They also have a line of parts to help the conversion, one of which is a VSS sensor that includes a mechanical cable drive, so you get a VSS signal for the computer and a cable for your speedometer. Cost is around $5... - --steve ------------------------------ From: Joe Boucher Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 16:38:47 -0500 Subject: Re: (Fwd) Cheap Speedo steve ravet wrote: > > > It would have entailed replacing the output shaft and tail housing. > > This was a very tight budgeted project with a short fuse. The short > > term answer was to buy a speedo cluster from an '89 Chevy and plug > > in the wire harness and leave it on the floor. The AC signal from > > the speed sensor is converted to an on/off 12 volt DC signal by the > > PC board backplane of the speedo housing. > > You probably don't want to hear this, but there's a company called > JTR that writes swap manuals for putting FI small block chevies into > Z cars, volvos, S trucks, older non FI GM cars, etc. They also have > a line of parts to help the conversion, one of which is a VSS sensor > that includes a mechanical cable drive, so you get a VSS signal for > the computer and a cable for your speedometer. Cost is around $5... > > --steve Manuals!?!?! I don't need no steekin' manuals! I knew there was some manuals out there. This was a "I'm going in by myself" type project. (Explain's my attitude for lurking around this list.) I wanted to see if I could figure it out with minimal help outside of factory documentation and the few "Hot Rod" and "Car Craft" articles I had read. I got it running. I just couldn't tell how fast I was going. But that is now fixed also after alot of sweatin' and cussin'. I appreciate the input. Joe (Happy it's Friday) Boucher '70 Camaro '81 TBI Suburban ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 20:25:03 -0400 Subject: RE: Fuel injector cleaner > Surely if deposits can form slowly over time, they can be removed over > time(hopefully less) with the proper solvent. Or a good quality gasoline, which has less "filler" . Frederic Breitwieser Homebrew Automotive Mailing List NEW WEBSITE: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/4605/index.html Email: frederic.breitwieser@xxx.com Bridgeport, Connecticut ------------------------------ From: John Bertram Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 21:22:53 -0700 Subject: Unusual problem with LH 2.2 system I'm wondering if anyone can come some ideas for troubleshooting a problem that I am having with my '87 Volvo 740 Turbo. It uses an LH 2.2 system for fuel and an EZK 117 for ignition. I am also running a Saab APC knock sensitive boost pressure control system which is totally independent of the fuel and ignition systems. Here's the problem: When I let my foot off of the gas under heavy boost (12-14psi) and reduce the boost to say about 3 psi, I get black smoke out the tail pipe for 1-2 seconds. I don't remember ever seeing it do this before. If I lift my foot off the gas all the way, it doesn't smoke. The car is equipped from the factory with a turbo bypass valve which I have tested and does work. I have also tried a known good mass airflow sensor just for fun. I have checked all of the grounds in the system, and the power supply to all of the components. I have checked the NTC (pin checked from the LH ECM plug). Anyone got any good ideas of what might be happening? The O2 sensor seems to be working, but I haven't hooked it up to a scope to see how fast it's actually cycling (I was checking it with a slow DMM). I replaced the fuel pressure regulator a couple months ago, but haven't gotten a chance to check it again. The overall fuel consumption doesn't seem to be affected very much though. The smoke is just embarrassing. There are no noticeable drivablility problems. Anyone got any ideas? ------------------------------ From: James Weiler Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:50:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Unusual problem with LH 2.2 system Just as guess but have you checked the throttle position sensor? It sounds like when you close off the throttle the engines is still too rich so I'm guessing the ECU doesn't know you've backed off. There are no detectable divability problems probably becuase the system works well enough on just air flow and RPM signals alone. Just my $0.02 worth. Let me know what it was when you figure it out. Don't you hate it when people say that :) jw ------------------------------ From: Seth Allen Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 00:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Unusual problem with LH 2.2 system On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, John Bertram wrote: > Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 21:22:53 -0700 > From: John Bertram > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Unusual problem with LH 2.2 system > > I'm wondering if anyone can come some ideas for troubleshooting a problem > that I am having with my '87 Volvo 740 Turbo. It uses an LH 2.2 system for > fuel and an EZK 117 for ignition. I am also running a Saab APC knock > sensitive boost pressure control system which is totally independent of the > fuel and ignition systems. Here's the problem: When I let my foot off of > the gas under heavy boost (12-14psi) and reduce the boost to say about 3 > psi, I get black smoke out the tail pipe for 1-2 seconds. I don't remember > ever seeing it do this before. If I lift my foot off the gas all the way, > it doesn't smoke. The car is equipped from the factory with a turbo bypass > valve which I have tested and does work. I have also tried a known good > mass airflow sensor just for fun. I have checked all of the grounds in the > system, and the power supply to all of the components. I have checked the > NTC (pin checked from the LH ECM plug). Anyone got any good ideas of what > might be happening? The O2 sensor seems to be working, but I haven't > hooked it up to a scope to see how fast it's actually cycling (I was > checking it with a slow DMM). I replaced the fuel pressure regulator a > couple months ago, but haven't gotten a chance to check it again. The > overall fuel consumption doesn't seem to be affected very much though. The > smoke is just embarrassing. There are no noticeable drivablility problems. > > Anyone got any ideas? > > Here is a guess- when you drop the throttle completely, the injectors quit firing when under decel. This as a common strategy for efi. When you lift, but not fully, either a value from the MAF (LH is hot wire, right?) or or the fact that a throttle closed microswitch is not engaged. This results in the injectors firing, and the resultant black plume. You were probably going quite rich at full boost to reduce NOX emissions. Then you have excess fuel and exhaust in a hot fast moving exhaust. Whn you lift the throttle partially, you have leftover unburned HC in the tailpipe and a suddenly slowly moving exhaust stream. The result is condensing hydrocarbons and water from the now stoichiometric exhaust gases passing thru the catalyst. The result is instant turbo smog. This is just my first guess. I would bet that everythig is fine. And that you would never see this transient situation on the LA driving cycle emissions test for Volvo certification ;) Seth Allen ------------------------------ From: Seth Allen Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 00:47:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: plugs-- EDS maybe I have a question. Has anyone here found a source for quality weather proof electrical connectors. The new ones on Haltech units look nice (and spendy) I think they are GM. Can I get them from EDS or someone like that? Incidentally, to those who are following my staged methanol injection craziness, the program for the injection works, it currently has 500 rpm increments and 10 kpa increments for the pulse width map. 1500 rpm to 8500 rpm span, and 110-250 kpa range for injection. With an input for TPS and a NTC temp sensor, It would be a Haltech F3 (well, not really) I am going to build the injector driver board soon, hence the questions about plugs. The next group to program on this project will work on using the MCX11 operating system, it apparently allows idependent background goings on. Now you know as much about MCX11 as I do (or more!) Still a ways from making huge power, need a serial port interface, and perhaps a boost/pulsewidth display and a COPS routine. Then if all that gous well, I will subject it to heat, vibration and EMI. In other words, it might never go in the car. :) THanks again to all who have helped me so far with the selection of parts and miscellaneous information that has made this project go more smooothly that it might have otherwise. Seth Allen - -Someday I am really going to learn to hack assembly... really! ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #210 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".