DIY_EFI Digest Sunday, 22 June 1997 Volume 02 : Number 211 In this issue: Fuel Dissociation Catalyst RE: Unusual problem with LH 2.2 system Re: Fuel Dissociation Catalyst See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Cartledge Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 18:09:58 +0100 Subject: Fuel Dissociation Catalyst ((Quote from gasoline FAQ at URLs)) http://www.lib.ox.ac.uk:80/internet/news/faq/archive/autos.gasoline-faq.part1.html http://www.lib.ox.ac.uk:80/internet/news/faq/archive/autos.gasoline-faq.part2.html http://www.lib.ox.ac.uk:80/internet/news/faq/archive/autos.gasoline-faq.part3.html http://www.lib.ox.ac.uk:80/internet/news/faq/archive/autos.gasoline-faq.part4.html "Mr.Gunnerman advocates hydrocarbon/water emulsion fuels and promoted his A-55 fuel before the new A-21. A recent article claims a 29% gain in fuel economy [130], and he claims that mixing water with naphtha can provide as much power from an IC engine as the same flow rate of gasoline. He claims the increased efficiency is from catalysed dissociation of A-21 into H2 in the engine, because the combustion chamber of the test engines contain a "non-reactive" catalyst. For his fuel to provide power increases, he has to utilise heat energy that is normally lost. A-21 is just naphtha ( effectively unleaded gasoline without oxygenates ) and water ( about 55% ), with small amouts of winterizing and anti-corrosive additives. If the magic catalyst is not present, conventional IC engines will not perform as efficiently, and may possibly be damaged if A-21 is used. The only modification is a new set of spark plugs, and it is also claimed that the fuel can replace both diesel and gasoline. It has been claimed that test results of A-21 fuel emissions have shown significant reductions in CO2 ( 50% claimed - who is surprised when the fuel is 55% water? :-) ), CO, HCs, NOx and a 70% reduction in diesel particulates and smoke. It's claimed that 70% of the exhaust stream consists of water vapour. He has formed a joint venture company with Caterpillar called Advanced Fuels. U.S. patent #5,156,114 ( Aqueous Fuel for Internal Combustion Engines and Combustion Method ) was granted to Mr.Gunnerman in 1992." I was wondering if the 'catalyst' is likely to be platinum or some other metal maybe silver, tin or lead???? I hope this becomes widespread technology before all of the world's oil is depleted. If anyone knows what the catalyst is, I would be most grateful if you can email me and/or post on the list and I'll give it a try. Regards, Richard Cartledge ********************************************* Richard Cartledge Apple Powerbook 5300c fac51@xxx.uk/~fac51 ********************************************* ------------------------------ From: James Boughton Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 17:29:00 -0400 Subject: RE: Unusual problem with LH 2.2 system - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC7E68.9D5197C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi to everyone, This is the first time I've responded to anything on the diy_efi list. = I hope my input can be of some use. I have more of an engine background = than electrical (or computer) so you guys have pointed me in the right = direction on a lot of the EFI hardware that I am looking for. Thanks. Now a few questions for John Bertram. Did you install the Saab APC = knock sensitive boost pressure control system yourself? Are the LH 2.2 = system and the EZK 117 system OEM components? OEM systems can run very = rich at wide open throttle (WOT) for a number of reasons (I am assuming = that 12-14 psi of boost is WOT?) including catalyst temperature control, = exhaust valve durability, or possibly knock control. This is NOT = 10%-15% rich for power improvement we are talking 25%+ here. NOx = control is currently not of concern to OEMs at WOT since emissions = cycles do not include any WOT operation, yet! US06 is the new cycle = that the EPA is instituting to force manufacturers to operate at = stoichiometric for approximately 2 sec. under WOT conditions. But, back = to the question at hand. When you lift out of the throtlle there is = typically a routine that reduces the pulsewidth for a short time because = fuel vaporizes more readily at lower pressures and the puddling in the = intake manifold will cause a short period of over rich condition if this = routine is not implemented. In my experience, however, I have never = seen a car spew black smoke just because this routine was not = functioning. As a matter of fact this routine wasn't used by some OEMs = until relatively recently. It sounds to me like some portion of your = steady state calibration is amiss. Possibly your base fuel surface is = wrong since it sounds like you have made some hardware changes to the = engine. If it is possible to drive steady state in the condition that = is causing the black smoke you can easily find out. I am not familiar = with calibrating turbos (maybe you can teach me something here), but if = it is possible to hold around 3psi of boost and some of your higher rpm = operating points for about 5 seconds you may find your problem. Also, = when you lift off completely you are probably going into decel fuel = shutoff (DFSO) and thus no black smoke. FYI on O2 sensors. The frequency of most systems for feedback control = of the fuel/air mixture is around 2-3Hz on the high side. There isn't = anyone who knows the answers on catalysts (or if they are they aren't = sharing it with anyone I've worked with) so closed loop fueling is full = of opinions and question marks. Hope this info is helpful, but it may just make things more confusing. = Such is the world of IC engines and control systems. 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This story has been around for 50 years - power from pills - put water in your tank etc ad nausem. It's one of the oldest scams around. Diesel - I'll believe it when J.B. Hunt puts it on his fleet. If catapillar formally endorse it and warrenties it and promotes and it gets on a fleet - it might be real. In software this sort of this is called "Vapor Ware" cause it ain't real yet. And remember - the true early innovators are the guys running around with the arrows in thier back. If the first ingredient ain't Habanero, then the rest don't matter. Robert Harris - ---------- > From: Richard Cartledge > To: DIY EFI List > Subject: Fuel Dissociation Catalyst > Date: Saturday, June 21, 1997 10:09 AM > > ((Quote from gasoline FAQ at URLs)) > http://www.lib.ox.ac.uk:80/internet/news/faq/archive/autos.gasoline-faq.part1.ht ml > http://www.lib.ox.ac.uk:80/internet/news/faq/archive/autos.gasoline-faq.part2.ht ml > http://www.lib.ox.ac.uk:80/internet/news/faq/archive/autos.gasoline-faq.part3.ht ml > http://www.lib.ox.ac.uk:80/internet/news/faq/archive/autos.gasoline-faq.part4.ht ml > > "Mr.Gunnerman advocates hydrocarbon/water emulsion fuels and > promoted his A-55 fuel before the new A-21. A recent article claims a > 29% gain in fuel economy [130], and he > claims that mixing water with naphtha can provide as much power from an > IC engine as the same flow rate of > gasoline. He claims the increased efficiency is from catalysed > dissociation of A-21 into H2 in the engine, because the > combustion chamber of the test engines contain a "non-reactive" > catalyst. For his fuel to provide power increases, he > has to utilise heat energy that is normally lost. A-21 is just naphtha ( > effectively unleaded gasoline without > oxygenates ) and water ( about 55% ), with small amouts of winterizing > and anti-corrosive additives. If the magic > catalyst is not present, conventional IC engines will not perform as > efficiently, and may possibly be damaged if A-21 > is used. The only modification is a new set of spark plugs, and it is > also claimed that the fuel can replace both diesel > and gasoline. It has been claimed that test results of A-21 fuel > emissions have shown significant reductions in CO2 ( > 50% claimed - who is surprised when the fuel is 55% water? :-) ), CO, > HCs, NOx and a 70% reduction in diesel > particulates and smoke. It's claimed that 70% of the exhaust stream > consists of water vapour. He has formed a joint > venture company with Caterpillar called Advanced Fuels. U.S. patent > #5,156,114 ( Aqueous Fuel for Internal > Combustion Engines and Combustion Method ) was granted to Mr.Gunnerman > in 1992." > > I was wondering if the 'catalyst' is likely to be platinum or some other > metal maybe silver, tin or lead???? > I hope this becomes widespread technology before all of the world's oil > is depleted. > If anyone knows what the catalyst is, I would be most grateful if you > can email me and/or post on the list and I'll give it a try. > > Regards, Richard Cartledge > ********************************************* > Richard Cartledge Apple Powerbook 5300c > fac51@xxx.uk/~fac51 > ********************************************* ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #211 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. 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