DIY_EFI Digest Monday, 23 June 1997 Volume 02 : Number 212 In this issue: RE: Fuel Dissociation Catalyst '89 Firebird ECM PROM I'm somebody now!!!! Re: '89 Firebird ECM PROM RE:89 firebird prom RE: 89 firebird prom Cutting VATS out of the loop when mill swapping RE: Unusual problem with LH 2.2 system Re: Unusual problem with LH 2.2 system Re: Unusual problem with LH 2.2 system See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 10:23:17 -0400 Subject: RE: Fuel Dissociation Catalyst > The "precious metal catalyst" is probably Gold - straight from your > wallet. This story has been around for 50 years - power from pills - Reminds me of the alchemists of the early kingdom days... turning metal into gold through magic. So now I know why most of them were beheaded... Frederic Breitwieser Homebrew Automotive Mailing List NEW WEBSITE: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/4605/index.html Email: frederic.breitwieser@xxx.com Bridgeport, Connecticut ------------------------------ From: Terry Martin Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 14:02:18 -0700 Subject: '89 Firebird ECM PROM I got a ECM out of a '89 Firebird Trans Am GTA. I pulled the following number out of the PROM by looking through the quartz window with a microscope: (M)1984 TI 27C128A ....could be 27C12HH, or some variation of the last two digits. Question: Is this the right PROM for the ECM that's supposed to be in this type of vehicle? I have not found a reference to the numbers that would indicate it's a 8051 or 8065, etc. Alternatively, can someone confirm the manufacturer and # of the PROM? Thanks much, Terry ------------------------------ From: Aron Travis Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 16:38:06 -0700 Subject: I'm somebody now!!!! Howdy all, Some of you may remember that I had some city code problems with one of my cars, earlier this year. Well the picture of the offending car is now on the internet (picture Steve Martin in 'The Jerk'-"I'm somebody now!"). This car has nothing to do with any of my email lists, ie it's not british or pre-war, it's not FI, and I didn't build it my self. But any gearhead should at least get a kick out of the paint job alone. The full sorrid story of my code problems, and solutions, will be posted soon at the same URL. I'm posting this because most of you car nuts could have the same problems that I had, ie sensitive neighbors and a city looking for easy revenue. http://www.galaxieclub.com/memcarpix/64/travis.html - -Aron Travis- "always in a automotive frenzy" P.S. Fred B.- you'll especially like this one! ------------------------------ From: peter paul fenske Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 15:45:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: '89 Firebird ECM PROM Hi Terry It is a variant of a 27C128 eprom That setting will allow you to read it just fine and also program it.. Good Luck:peter At 02:02 PM 6/22/97 -0700, you wrote: >I got a ECM out of a '89 Firebird Trans Am GTA. I pulled the following >number out of the PROM by looking through the quartz window with a >microscope: > >(M)1984 TI > 27C128A ....could be 27C12HH, or some variation of the last two >digits. > >Question: Is this the right PROM for the ECM that's supposed to be in >this type of vehicle? I have not found a reference to the numbers that >would indicate it's a 8051 or 8065, etc. > >Alternatively, can someone confirm the manufacturer and # of the PROM? > >Thanks much, >Terry > > ------------------------------ From: Jennifer Rose Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 16:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE:89 firebird prom Hi Terry The tpi ecm should have pn #1227165 on it somewhere. The prom generally have 3 or 4 letter code on eprom silver label. my 89 camaro is apyy - 5.0 liter auto fed emissions. 86 thur 89 proms are 27c128. Are you doing a transplant of tpi unit? Vance ------------------------------ From: Terry Martin Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 18:51:59 -0700 Subject: RE: 89 firebird prom - ---------- From: Jennifer Rose[SMTP:javer96@xxx.net] Sent: Sunday, June 22, 1997 9:44 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: RE:89 firebird prom Hi Terry The tpi ecm should have pn #1227165 on it somewhere. The prom generally have 3 or 4 letter code on eprom silver label. my 89 camaro is apyy - 5.0 liter auto fed emissions. 86 thur 89 proms are 27c128. Are you doing a transplant of tpi unit? Vance No although I wish I was, it would be simpler. I retrieved this from a totally burned vehicle that had been reported stolen, and the insurance company said "bugger off you can't steal those cars, you did it yourself," to the insured. I beg to differ. I suspect the PROM was changed with the 400Dh DB set to "O", and the VATS system was disabled because the dipshits at GM couldn't or wouldn't fix a simple intermittent problem originating with the VATS and showing up as a power train control problem to the owner. Simple fix, charge the guy $800, and everybodies happy. Including the dumb-ass car thieves that didn't know they should not have even bothered to try to rip off the car. The car burned down to the ground, it even melted the mags, so the guy had an incredible stroke of luck to (A) call me, and (B) have the ECM fall off face down and get covered up with other crap so it didn't fry the PROM. (I hope) The silver sticker burned off, and it got hot enough to melt the Calpak, but not enough to completely burn the inked on #'s off the chips. I did raise a ???65 number off the bottom of the face, so it sounds right. Anyhow, now I have to either find someone to interrogate the PROM or build an interrogator myself. Better yet, it just occurred to me, maybe I should go and find a similar vehicle and just swap the PROMS to see what happens. BTW, can you by any chance confirm the I/O address for the VATS DB? I have 400Dh DB 0b6h 1=VATS Thanks Terry Oh yeah, if you're wondering "what the hell does this guy do for a living?" hit http://mindlink.net/terry_martin/facts.html begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(AT!`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$-@ 0` M`@````$``0`!!) &`-P"```"````# ````,``# $````"P`/#@`````"`?\/ M`0```&,`````````@2L?I+ZC$!F=;@#=`0]4`@````!D:7E?969I0&-O=6QO M;6(N96YG+F]H:6\M``,P`0`` M`",```!D:7E?969I0&-O=6QO;6(N96YG+F]H:6\M5]E9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F`0$)@ $`(0```#@X-# Y04,P,D)%0D0P,3%",S G2P)I B>LK$="S>$1% M4U0`````'@`># $````%````4TU44 `````>`!\,`0```!P```!T97)R>5]M M87)T:6Y ;6EN9&QI;FLN8F,N8V$``P`&$"7RM_(#``<0208``!X`"! !```` M90```"TM+2TM+2TM+2U&4D]-.DI%3DY)1D524D]315--5% Z2D%615(Y-D!3 M3D]70U)%4U1.151314Y4.E-53D1!62Q*54Y%,C(L,3DY-SDZ-#1!351/.D1) M645&24!#3U5,3TU"14X``````@$)$ $```#K!@``YP8``!X+``!,6D9U60WX MW?\`"@$/`A4"J 7K`H,`4 +R"0(`8V@*P'-E=#(W!@`&PP*#,@/%`@!P)S=&5M`H,S=P+D!Q,"@'T*@ C/"=D[\18/,C4U`H *@0VQ"V#@;F=@R"["!*"? #`&8$D ?Q$; `6U-- M5% Z:F$"=@xxx.39 0="YN$L2Y?(NM2 M1; Z.#D@'* 6$&(W$#1D(!YQ;1K_' ,S-F<==QI%'G9(:2X@!)!R)GD:[3PV M5&@K$'1PPSK@!9!M('-H,,$W<$\1@"4`-X #H",Q*S W21Y -2 "("!I!4!S M;P-P!] \T!80+CRS-YEGMPGP!) 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M,P/@xxx.T!9HCMB ML&'V:%'Q6M,G26%20"J !G']2R$BI4-8 M@xxx.B^^+T>@*H < M,)&@xxx.?RWO+@ON3\+NDP5,0"^ MT `#`! 0``````,`$1 `````0 `',& UZ]QS?[P!0 `(,& UZ]QS?[P!'@`] 3``$````%````4D4Z( ````"?TP`' ` end ------------------------------ From: Terry Martin Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 22:27:24 -0700 Subject: Cutting VATS out of the loop when mill swapping Most of the info is deadbeat easy to get the VATS out of the way when stuffing a mill with a ECM programmed with VATS, (or PATS), into oh, say, an Austin Mini. The simple way on the VATS (GM' PASSKey I, II, & III) ECM's is to get the module on older models, and simply solder the resistor pellet out of the the appropriate key across the lock cylinder circuit. Better yet, modify an Immobilizer key and you get to keep all your hard work instead of giving it up to joe asshole who wants your baby but doesn't want to pay for it. The PROM can also be programmed for VATS OFF, but that takes money.However, if your GM engine is coming out of anything equipped with "PASSLOCK", you don't get the simple cheap option. This system is probably easier to beat for a thief, but getting around the PROM programming without sticking a dash and ignition lock cylindr in is a bung deal. The ignition lock cylinder is equipped with a "Hall effect" sensor which basically uses a magnet embedded in the lock plug, (the turning part where you stick your key"), to rotate past a sensor equipped with transistor switches which sequentially trip within a time window to pass a signal along about three goddamn feet of wire from the lock cylinder down the steering column, hang a right and go in behind the dash, rotate up into a take-off attitude, climb up, hang a left, go about just far enough to be goddamn fucking annoying because at this point what you are getting out requires the removal of the top of the dash,(fun unless you don't like de-certifying the passenger side air bag), into the top right of the instrument cluster module, which in turn detects a valid signal, (or not), and blows off over to the ECM/PCM terminal go/no go. As far as I know, you have to reprogram the PROM on these vehicles, or uh oh, no fuel delivery, starter feed, running engine, or even a good feeling. PATS equipped ECM/PCM/OBC alphabet soup controllers are way simpler. (No GM products at the moment, but coming soon to a scrap yard near you). Just don't bust the pick-up coil around the ignition lock cylnder when pulling your gear. Simple means you get at least one working key for the vehicle. You don't need the key, but you definitely need what's in the key head. It's (well shut my mouth) a transponder. So don't forget to get the receiver module. Anyhow, just glue the head of the key to the ignition pickup coil and away you go. No key head, no go. For details on which vehicle has wut, e-mail me. I'll post it back here for all to see. Terry ------------------------------ From: John Bertram Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 22:56:25 -0700 Subject: RE: Unusual problem with LH 2.2 system >Now a few questions for John Bertram. Did you install the Saab APC knock sensitive boost pressure control system yourself? Yes, the complete details of the installation can be found at: http://www.teleport.com/~bertram/volvoapc >Are the LH 2.2 system and the EZK 117 system OEM components? Yes, these are the factory equipment. >OEM systems can run very rich at wide open throttle (WOT) for a number of >reasons (I am assuming that 12-14 psi of boost is WOT?) including catalyst >temperature control, exhaust valve durability, or possibly knock control. The LH 2.2 system works with the EZK 117 and has a knock sensor. The Ignition system retards the ignition 3 degrees per cylinder that is knocking. It also sends a signal to the LH 2.2 when knock is detected and the LH then richens the fuel mixture. >Possibly your base fuel surface is wrong since it sounds like you have made >some hardware changes to the engine. If it is possible to drive steady >state in the condition that is causing the black smoke you can easily find >out. It is easy enough to reproduce the smoke situation. Not for a long period of time though. It only does it while decelerating from high boost to lower boost. >Also, when you lift off completely you are probably going into decel fuel >shutoff (DFSO) and thus no black smoke. I'll have to check into this. I am not sure if LH 2.2 shuts down the injectors on deceleration. >FYI on O2 sensors. The frequency of most systems for feedback control of the fuel/air mixture is around 2-3Hz on the high side. There isn't anyone who knows the answers on catalysts (or if they are they aren't sharing it with anyone I've worked with) so closed loop fueling is full of opinions and question marks. John Bertram, Technician Garry Small Saab (Turbobricks list Admin.) Volvo Turbo APC project (www.teleport.com/~bertram/volvoapc) '87 Volvo 740 Turbo Sedan '70 Toyota Corona Mk.I ------------------------------ From: John Bertram Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 22:42:49 -0700 Subject: Re: Unusual problem with LH 2.2 system At 10:50 PM 6/20/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Just as guess but have you checked the throttle position sensor? It >sounds like when you close off the throttle the engines is still too rich >so I'm guessing the ECU doesn't know you've backed off. I would consider this as a concern, but the 2.2 LH system only has an idle contact in the throttle switch. That's all it does. No position sensor. Good thought though. John Bertram, Technician Garry Small Saab (Turbobricks list Admin.) Volvo Turbo APC project (www.teleport.com/~bertram/volvoapc) '87 Volvo 740 Turbo Sedan '70 Toyota Corona Mk.I ------------------------------ From: John Bertram Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 22:45:59 -0700 Subject: Re: Unusual problem with LH 2.2 system >Here is a guess- when you drop the throttle completely, the injectors >quit firing when under decel. This as a common strategy for efi. When >you lift, but not fully, either a value from the MAF (LH is hot wire, >right?) or or the fact that a throttle closed microswitch is not >engaged. This results in the injectors firing, and the resultant black >plume. You were probably going quite rich at full boost to reduce NOX >emissions. Then you have excess fuel and exhaust in a hot fast moving >exhaust. Whn you lift the throttle partially, you have leftover unburned >HC in the tailpipe and a suddenly slowly moving exhaust stream. The >result is condensing hydrocarbons and water from the now stoichiometric >exhaust gases passing thru the catalyst. The result is instant turbo smog. > >This is just my first guess. I would bet that everythig is fine. And >that you would never see this transient situation on the LA driving cycle >emissions test for Volvo certification ;) Ok, assuming that this is not a problem, can anyone think of a good way to eliminate the black smoke? It doesn't look good. John Bertram, Technician Garry Small Saab (Turbobricks list Admin.) Volvo Turbo APC project (www.teleport.com/~bertram/volvoapc) '87 Volvo 740 Turbo Sedan '70 Toyota Corona Mk.I ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #212 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".