DIY_EFI Digest Saturday, 28 June 1997 Volume 02 : Number 218 In this issue: RE: Please post CNG Injectors RE: LH 2.2 problem solved. Re: Holley fuel pump Re: Holley fuel pump Re: GM TPI auto trans -> manual? RE: fuel rail RE: fuel rail RE: GM TPI auto trans -> manual? Re: CNG Injectors Knock Sensor signal level Re: Knock Sensor signal level RE: fuel rail RE: fuel rail Re: fuel rail Big overlap cams and EFI Re: Knock Sensor signal level RE: fuel rail Re: Big overlap cams and EFI Re: fuel rail RE: fuel rail RE: fuel rail 2.5 L engines See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Andrew Rabbitt Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 13:22:05 +0100 Subject: RE: Please post The LPG fuel systems usually retro-fitted to vehicles are totally independent of the gasoline systems., ie the gasoline ECU has nothing to do with the LPG fuel metering. > ---------- > From: boughton@xxx.net] on behalf > of James Boughton[SMTP:boughton@xxx.net] > Sent: 26 June 1997 23:52 > To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu' > Subject: RE: Please post > > Michel, > Here is my guess (and believe me I am guessing). On typical > gasoline injection cars there is a function which decreases the > pulsewidth for a short period of time on open to closed throttle > transitions. This is to keep the engine operation near stoichiometric > while the puddled fuel in the intake manifold gets sucked into the > engine. With the LPG fuel there is no puddling and the decrease in > pulsewidth is actually forcing the engine lean causing the bump your > friend is feeling. As I am not familiar with the control system of > the 730i or LPG fuel I am shooting in the dark, but there is my > explanation :-) > > Jim Boughton > boughton@xxx.net > Owner - Boughton Engine Systems Technology (B.E.S.T.) > > ---------- > From: Mpotheau@xxx.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 1997 6:16 AM > To: DIY_EFI-Digest@xxx.edu > Subject: Please post > > > A non English speaking friend of mine is having problems with > his BMW 730i. > The car is far, far away and I cannot reach out and touch it. > I am not > familiar with how the conversion was done, it has kindly been > described as > butcherwork. The car runs on both LPG and Gasoline (one at a > time). The > reason for this is obvious- cost of LPG is about 1/3 of > gasoline. > > Car runs fine on gas, no problems of note. On LPG the car does > not > decelerate smoothly, sorta a reverse hesitation when lifting off > the > throttle. > mpotheau@xxx.com > Michel Potheau > > > ------------------------------ From: James Thorne Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 07:57:53 -0500 Subject: CNG Injectors From: adevuo@xxx.it (Antonio De Vuono) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 12:31:02 +0200 Subject: CNG Injectors Do you know if I can obtain a copy of Data Sheets of the CNG injectors that you used? Could you please send me the address of MSD? Who are they? Are they Bosch distributors? Where is your shop? I will come in USA in the next future, if it will be possible I will come to see the car. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I do not have datasheets on the injectors. I got the idea when they were given to us that they were some sort of pilot project that they would rather not talk about. Ford assured me the internals were appropriate for CNG use but were actually methenol injectors from thier indy program. We had to flow test them ourselves. Ford told us they were stable to about 100 psi. we had no trouble up to about 120 at which point they would not open. MSD is better known for thier ignitions products but they also have a large fuel injection components division. They are in El Paso Texas. You can call them and they will send you a catalog of fuel components. They are not Bosch distributers. They manufacture a complete line of thier own racing fuel injection components including injectors. I do not have the number here at the office. As for the CNG Mustang, its at the Slot Car Mustangs shop here in Houston TX. I do not own the shop but know the owner well and would be glad to take you by to see the car. Let me know when you will be in Houston. James Thorne ------------------------------ From: James Boughton Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 09:14:16 -0400 Subject: RE: LH 2.2 problem solved. - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC82DA.808F7D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, Congratulations! Good to hear somebody is making progress. Thanks for = filling everyone in. You never know when knowledge like this will come = in handy. A special note for James Weiler. This is the kind of problem I was = talking about in reference to a MAF system as opposed to a MAP system. = A MAP system probably would never have indicated this problem. Jim Boughton boughton@xxx.net Owner - Boughton Engine Systems Technology (B.E.S.T.) - ---------- From: John Bertram[SMTP:bertram@xxx.com] Sent: Friday, June 27, 1997 2:25 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: LH 2.2 problem solved. Thought I'd follow up to my strange rich running black smoke on decell problem. I finally found it today while changing my oil. The short intercooler hose from the IC to the metal tube that goes to = the intake manifold had a hole in it with a little flap door that would = close up when not under boost. Since the hole was on the bottom of the hose = and was not visible, nor could I feel it when I felt the bottom of the hose, = I didn't detect it right away. Today I took a closer look and found it. Since it was late in the day, I wasn't able to get a replacement, I = wrapped it in duct tape many times and now everything is working good... I even have about 2 more PSI of boost. Woohoo! Thanks to everyone who had some input on this problem. John Bertram, Technician Garry Small Saab (Turbobricks list Admin.) Volvo Turbo APC project (www.teleport.com/~bertram/volvoapc) '87 Volvo 740 Turbo Sedan '70 Toyota Corona Mk.I - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC82DA.808F7D20 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhcNAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AGQBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAGMAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1AFNNVFAAZGl5X2VmaUBj b3Vsb21iLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAACMA AABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1AAADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgAB MAEAAAAlAAAAJ2RpeV9lZmlAY291bG9tYi5lbmcub2hpby1zdGF0ZS5lZHUnAAAAAAIBCzABAAAA KAAAAFNNVFA6RElZX0VGSUBDT1VMT01CLkVORy5PSElPLVNUQVRFLkVEVQADAAA5AAAAAAsAQDoB AAAAAgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAA9xNAQiABwAYAAAASVBNLk1pY3Jvc29mdCBNYWlsLk5vdGUAMQgB BIABABsAAABSRTogTEggMi4yIHByb2JsZW0gc29sdmVkLgAjCAEFgAMADgAAAM0HBgAbAAkADgAQ AAUAIQEBIIADAA4AAADNBwYAGwAJAAgANgAFAEEBAQmAAQAhAAAANjNDQzU5NjVDQkVFRDAxMUEz MTM0NDQ1NTM1NDAwMDAA5wYBA5AGACwHAAASAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAAAwA2 AAAAAABAADkAQI+zA/yCvAEeAHAAAQAAABsAAABSRTogTEggMi4yIHByb2JsZW0gc29sdmVkLgAA AgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAbyC/AOrZVnMZO7LEdCjE0RFU1QAAAAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAe AB8MAQAAABQAAABib3VnaHRvbkBiaWduZXQubmV0AAMABhBmtbLuAwAHEMUEAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUA AABKT0hOLENPTkdSQVRVTEFUSU9OU0dPT0RUT0hFQVJTT01FQk9EWUlTTUFLSU5HUFJPR1JFU1NU SEFOS1NGT1JGSUxMSU5HRVZFUllPTkVJTllPVU5FVkVSS05PV1dIRU5LTk9XAAAAAAIBCRABAAAA sAUAAKwFAABRCQAATFpGdVSdR2r/AAoBDwIVAqgF6wKDAFAC8gkCAGNoCsBzZXQyNwYABsMCgzID xQIAcHJCcRHic3RlbQKDM3cC5AcTAoB9CoAIzwnZO/EWDzI1NQKACoENsQtg4G5nMTAzFFALChRR BQvyYwBAIEpvaG42LAqGAZEgCFAZEHJhJHR1C2B0aQIgcyEQICBHbwRwIHRvqCBoZQrBcwNwZQbg qGR5IAQAIADAawuAtGcgE1BvCcEEEC4dAHJUEYBuawQgAhAFwGalAxBsHuJldgSQeQIgqmUecG4f oVkIYCAhYKEhESBrbm8H4HcdoGsDoCKCbAmAZyFwILBruSFwdGgegQPwIKAgBaBfB4AhgR2QAHAe UC4bSkHdHeBwBZAHMSIQbxPQIDPkSmEHgldlAxAEkB+jPx6BHoEkECFwHtEdUG9mpx8SAmAT4CBJ IsBhKNF/B0Ae0wGgCGAFQCUBFhBmWwSQCfBjI/EdgGEF0EEeRh3gE7MrAAQgb3Bw7m8RsB1TLHJQ LMUfoSZQVy5IKaMBoGweYHcIYGwfHVAiJBGAIRAhgWRpY78cUC3CJCIptSWGCoVKB3CkIEIIYGdo HXBuCoVDKyE0Q0BiaWchYHRmLjXBCoVPdyFgBcAt+TQHIEUZEAuAIXATpAQgrlQFkBsQFZFnHmAo Gc8FAFBpNAAuRS5TLuZUOW8a0C4pMvwK9CCwCDE4MALRaS0xNJ40DfAM0D5TC1kxNgqg6wNgE9Bj BUAtQHcKhz8r6wwwP/ZGA2E6QX4/9huzFxryNAAEkHQcQG1bU6BNVFA6YkWUQBPQ1yNgLZAAIC4k sV1BH0ItHwZgAjBDX0RrQxBpZGGUeSwa4HUhYTI3TCDQMTk5N0yAOhhAFLDmTUevQi1Ub0nvRGsx oOR5Xw3AaUAFoBxwA3BkYi4J8GcuGwAcsC1nE8Ax0VKAZHVNn0i+dZxiakAxT79Ea0xITICuLhHg KbYd8GwhEGQy7bk9VjM2PvcaRU8XaDQjPSogJx1QAhAgoCKhdXD9HWJtHmATwBxAGRAhcAUQfxFw K5BMUAMAHvECYADQa78d4ARgI+E3gQWBRuBsCoXvMn8KoyowIIBuB0AwQQIQ+0xQHVBpBUAdcEvx IsEoAd8koB/hN9EfAF3xbwMQMu17H9AhcHNccAAgIYET0HJ/BaAG8DECLaEgMANhKONJ/kMdYijy B4AqkR1gVcAj8vEcUCBnbweRaNQKhWcB/x7AaSEAcAaQBvAdUBGAHVD/LHBccGRRJQFjkQPwJBAs Yd8gsAJAZFEY4V2gZB0wBcD7afMwdGMVoBGwCoVdkSLT/ybxXYAlUCJRBuAtoDXgHQD+UwuALBIp AWzDKlI3gSjy/wbgAkBoMSmBcmRn4SVBCoXrKlJw4nYEAGkp4UwgIpD/BcBSEh1QYpEJ4AMgbUIi 4r13ImxjoXN/Z8JMIEkKhfExoGRuJwVADbBAI2OR+wUQXKJhKlAlcB+xY9MqMP8dcF/wLGFvowXA FaB9AilR/2M2JYZyBG1CKmEcgSTjKPL/S/MqM3qyMCEsIyOQe9Erkf8LUSwQB4ACMIETHEAtgAmA /2r2K1NTkEBBAZAmgGvCHmD/HKAHgn4SIpIhAyQRHvEkMu8FsB7TakAEcC6IQCohIQE/NIYxMysU EeAEYBYQIFBuUyowKYFxhlcdMFxwb/4hZY4f8x1xIQci0B2BbHH7HfIhgXArQXMzMk8zVjNmv0VJ TCA4ozGwBzA0hkcKwH8hMAYAAMAkgQYQAaAKhSj2VAhwBuBiXqEgESCwE8DZFLBkbSGRPGZWWQEd gHuU0xSwUGiwHyFV4jlAd6WYUC5G2i9+RlUvlvDLluFucGM8Zic4TQCWxD43PnCXFQZgS/A0hic3 /ZuxbyFAAZAb8QNgYtAF0PxrLnoGWd9a70AFCoUVMQIAogADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAQAAHMCBA 40P7grwBQAAIMCBA40P7grwBHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAACQOQ== - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC82DA.808F7D20-- ------------------------------ From: Alex Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 22:15:54 +1000 Subject: Re: Holley fuel pump To Greg Woods Greg, I had a Mazda R100 and was quite happy with its standard electric pump, however, it had mechanical actuating contacts inside and when they went U/S I too tried a Holley pump and, like you, immediately started looking for an alternative. I went to the local auto parts store and picked up a pretty good unit that did not have a "name". It was transitor switched and lasted a long time without too much trouble. This did fail, however, it was due to the igress of moisture in and around the electronics. I bought another of the same kind and sealed up the unit properly prior to installation. That car has now since passed out of my hands and is still running well (monster ported 12A blah blah). Go to the auto parts store near you, tell then you would like to HEAR a pump running, this they should be happy to do. If the pump sits on the bench, or in your hand, and purrs like a kitten have a go. Sometimes 'no-name' components are better. With your TBI system make sure the pump you buy can deliver the same quantity of fuel per minute as the std unit or else you may be disappointed. R's Alex RE: greg woods > gwoods@xxx.com > austin, tx > 86 xj 2.8l tbi ------------------------------ From: Greg Woods Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 08:33:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Holley fuel pump > I fitted a holley fuel pump on my celica not too long ago. Count your > blessings you have a stereo: i haven't put mine back in yet! Mine changes > pitch with the indicator!! > > Is this pump running at high pressure? Bruno, Not real high. It is the pump holley normally sells with their pro-jection FI conversion kits. I think Holley told me it does upto 30psi. greg woods gwoods@xxx.com austin,tx ------------------------------ From: "steve ravet" Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 09:05:30 +0000 Subject: Re: GM TPI auto trans -> manual? > My 700r4 has a quirk. When I manually shift and hold third gear, I > feel what seems to be a light shift, converter clutch I assume. Is > this so? Also, is the converter clutch supposed to engage > immediately after 4th gear or wait a few seconds before comming in? That's the clutch, you should feel it in both 3rd and fourth, in fourth it's usually a few seconds after the shift if you are only lightly on the throttle. if you're still accelerating (like entering the freeway) it won't lock up till you easy up on the throttle. You can test by lightly pressing on the brake. If the clutch is engaged it'll immediately disengage when the brake switch closes, and engage again a few seconds after you let up. You can feel this, and hear the engine rpm change. ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 09:15:00 -0400 Subject: RE: fuel rail - --Boundary_(ID_1Hf6ovKEae5xIISxK2bDNQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hey, something I know about (at least a little!) The 2.2l (non turbo) and the 2.0 are very similar, and share a lot of = common parts, however have some overall block differences. The 2.5L (as put in plymouth, dodge, and chrysler, not sure about jeep) = is not related to either of the above engines, was a different design = altogether. The 2.6L Mitsubishi built engine ('79-83ish) was an excellent engine, a = little noisy in the valve area, but was considered a "hemi" engine. I have experience with the 2.2L turbo, the 2.5L non-turbo, and the 2.6L = as I owned a few Plymouth Reliants while in college. I thought the smaller Jeep engines were outsourced from GM? Fred - ---------- From: James Boughton Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 11:01 PM To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu' Subject: RE: fuel rail Stephen, Do you know the bore spacing on the 2.5L Jeep engine? I'm not sure if = that engine was a derivative of the 2.2L Chrysler engine or not. I am = pretty sure the 2.2L Chrysler engine and the new 2.0L Chrysler engines = share the same bore spacing of 96mm. If the 2.5L Jeep engine also = shares this bore spacing all you need is a fuel rail from a neon and you = should be set. Jim Boughton boughton@xxx.net Owner - Boughton Engine Systems Technology (B.E.S.T.) - --Boundary_(ID_1Hf6ovKEae5xIISxK2bDNQ) Content-type: application/ms-tnef Content-transfer-encoding: base64 eJ8+IgUQAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAZAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAYwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGRpeV9lZmlAY291bG9t Yi5lbmcub2hpby1zdGF0ZS5lZHUAU01UUABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUu ZWR1AAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAIwAAAGRpeV9lZmlAY291bG9tYi5lbmcu b2hpby1zdGF0ZS5lZHUAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAACUAAAAnZGl5X2VmaUBjb3Vs b21iLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdScAAAAAAgELMAEAAAAoAAAAU01UUDpESVlfRUZJQENPVUxP TUIuRU5HLk9ISU8tU1RBVEUuRURVAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAAC2k0B BIABAA4AAABSRTogZnVlbCByYWlsAGUEAQWAAwAOAAAAzQcGABsACQAPAAAABQASAQEggAMADgAA AM0HBgAbAAkACwAHAAUAFQEBCYABACEAAAAwREE4MzA3NkVDRUVEMDExQkNGODAwQTAyNDg1NTI3 RgAwBwEDkAYAHAYAABQAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4AAAAAAAMANgAAAAAA QAA5AIDGDR78grwBHgBwAAEAAAAOAAAAUkU6IGZ1ZWwgcmFpbAAAAAIBcQABAAAAGwAAAAG8gqZr b4iQf+rudRHQoxNERVNUAAAAFUn4AQAeAB4MAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAAIAAAAGZy ZWRlcmljLmJyZWl0d2llc2VyQG1jaW9uZS5jb20AAwAGEN8tFs8DAAcQ8AMAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAA AEhFWSxTT01FVEhJTkdJS05PV0FCT1VUKEFUTEVBU1RBTElUVExFKVRIRTIyTChOT05UVVJCTylB TkRUSEUyMEFSRVZFUllTSU1JTEFSLEFORFNIQVJFQUxPVE9GQ09NTU9OUEEAAAAAAgEJEAEAAACK BAAAhgQAAPcHAABMWkZ12dKXJP8ACgEPAhUCpAPkBesCgwBQEwNUAgBjaArAc2V07jIGAAbDAoMy A8YHEwKDIjMPemhlbAMgRGzqZwKDNBMNfQqACM8J2eI7F58yNTUCgAqBDbHBC2BuZzEwMxQgCwoL EvIMAWMAQCBIZXlYLCBzA3ASAGgLgGfAIEkga25vB+ABoBMIYAVAKGEFQGxlYWpzBUBhHnBpAkAe gCEWKQqFCoVUFPAgMi7aMgMgKB2gA6B0CHAG4LIpHdBuZCEwIHMwHdDpF6AgdgSQeRzAB3ADEHcK wBywIbJzEcEggB7hb9EFQG9mIAWgbQRgA6CpCrF0cxywaB2wZSKx/SWQYSKwHMMkgCKxB0ADIEEC YG9jayBkBpBmawSQCfBjB5AuH48gkTV2TB4xBCBwHhELgCUgbCsGwB4BaBywZARwZ2X3I3QRsCLQ cx6AI2EdoAVArnMIcCQRHfNqCeBwIZBvBAAsYxegC2B0CYAhMG/8IGUfEBTwBcAkkSHyHeG7JkEJ 8GcLgAeQHLB3KeHfHuAnpgVADbAAkGcDoAdAXy6wK1AvAihfIII2KbBNux8QLLBiBAAdICcwdQMQ BwVAMCQeMCc3OS04njM0oSGQMLMDoGV4KCD/FRAxcjAkI3Ee9SxhBAAi4LsqUSHydgdAJkEicWEc sP808AVAMLIFoACBBIEugR7g9iIU8CMgIjAVMs0dcCYjfTbwcAZxKAIwoC7xIeUyvymwIUMcsCH0 KaEhAS0/Rf8huDQRKeEdcB2wMGA7QifQ/QfgUCqVB/AVAAcwAjAEIP53HSA4cSpRFxEegCtQPF+z HRAIYGdoBUAh8nMAwPs3MQXASi1xMBYwoCfhJIA/HhAc0AhwKCAh0ANSIEf0TT8y3EYXoTLcCosf AAgxODAC0WktMTSeNA3wDNBNAwtZMTYKoOsDYC5wYwVALU8nCodN2+8MME6mSnADcDpQLk6mDIL1 RzBhB4JCRiMCIE/PUN0/BmACMFIPUxsgYAhwc2SSYRyhSnU1kTI2HLAQMTk5N1oAMTowmRxgUE1U z1DdVG9XDyVTGycnoHlfDcBpQC0FoHUXMAbQLjAhLm85HSBvLR6wLmFf4GR1/ida71XeNIAtYE7w XQ9TG/RSRWOQZgpQAyAm8AMQ80svTDMzNk2nFcIcFFY4ZS5wcBTwbiwKhlOiRH0uwHkIYB2EIfIG 4CKBcz0KsGMdMiESKVZHST8g/R1gJ0lALHcGkCHhHlE1VfcwtQZxOXB0cIAmoS9kPvPeQyvlNUYF sSxxLm4RHdD3SUBOoBIAdCLhLMJxPzVG/yG2MGAH4CIxdN8EICPURoPnU/FrvSSgOTYk4HMicRb/ bSwyERzQI8QEIB0RBCBry/8nAmryMGAugS3BQnFlxkkE/x7gMGAhESGyavIj0F+BIdDuYiZREgAy zUoHcFQ+HfF9VHNANJAx8IGBhIEKhU/LQiEFwC1UNyBFNWQGsNcesDugBCBUBZBoHaAXMAJnIuAo Qi5FLlP4LlQuH31nLxu3TqYKhQUWwQCMYAAAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAAAAAEAABzBwmk2T+4K8AUAA CDBwmk2T+4K8AR4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAAwANNP03AAB50g== - --Boundary_(ID_1Hf6ovKEae5xIISxK2bDNQ)-- ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 09:09:25 -0400 Subject: RE: fuel rail - --Boundary_(ID_eOyA6jJKZqYPrloAjcruuA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Don't use copper plumbing... assuming its of the home depot or similar = variety. While the copper tubing can take some pressure, I see two issues. The = solder (acid core) will be eaten from the inside, and in time leak, and = second, the joints in time might fold or weaken under the 45 PSI typical = of fuel injection. I'd strongly recommend using steel fuel lines or = steel piping to accomplish this. These comments aren't based on my = experience, I'm actually regurgitating what someone had told me, since I = considered the same thing before I got the complete engine that I did. - ---------- From: Stephen Dubovsky Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 9:14 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: fuel rail Hello all, finally getting my 84 2.5L jeep cherokee injected DIY-EFI style. The problem I was having was in manufacturing a fuel rail. I bought an old one off a four-banger mustang but of course none of the - --Boundary_(ID_eOyA6jJKZqYPrloAjcruuA) Content-type: application/ms-tnef Content-transfer-encoding: base64 eJ8+IjYQAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAZAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAYwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGRpeV9lZmlAY291bG9t Yi5lbmcub2hpby1zdGF0ZS5lZHUAU01UUABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUu ZWR1AAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAIwAAAGRpeV9lZmlAY291bG9tYi5lbmcu b2hpby1zdGF0ZS5lZHUAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAACUAAAAnZGl5X2VmaUBjb3Vs b21iLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdScAAAAAAgELMAEAAAAoAAAAU01UUDpESVlfRUZJQENPVUxP TUIuRU5HLk9ISU8tU1RBVEUuRURVAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAAC2k0B BIABAA4AAABSRTogZnVlbCByYWlsAGUEAQWAAwAOAAAAzQcGABsACQAJABkABQAlAQEggAMADgAA AM0HBgAbAAkABgA5AAUAQgEBCYABACEAAAAwOUE4MzA3NkVDRUVEMDExQkNGODAwQTAyNDg1NTI3 RgAlBwEDkAYAfAUAABQAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4AAAAAAAMANgAAAAAA QAA5AHA+AFb7grwBHgBwAAEAAAAOAAAAUkU6IGZ1ZWwgcmFpbAAAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG8gvtV /nYwqAru7BHQvPgAoCSFUn8AAB4AHgwBAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAfDAEAAAAgAAAAZnJlZGVy aWMuYnJlaXR3aWVzZXJAbWNpb25lLmNvbQADAAYQKOo4agMABxDiAgAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAARE9O VFVTRUNPUFBFUlBMVU1CSU5HQVNTVU1JTkdJVFNPRlRIRUhPTUVERVBPVE9SU0lNSUxBUlZBUklF VFlXSElMRVRIRUNPUFBFUlRVQklOR0NBTlRBS0VTT01FUFJFU1NVUgAAAAACAQkQAQAAAO8DAADr AwAANQYAAExaRnVHzVR4/wAKAQ8CFQKkA+QF6wKDAFATA1QCAGNoCsBzZXTuMgYABsMCgzIDxgcT AoMSMxMPZjQPemhlbNEDIERsZwKAfQqACM/FCdk7F58yNTUCgAqBgw2xC2BuZzEwMxQgdwsKEvIM AWMAQBZgAiAnlQVAdRHwIAWgcHAEkJogC1B1BtALgGcuHhAcIGEEEB2wHeEgaXQhBCBvZiB0FiAg aOcDcB0ADbBwbwVABbEAkDcekAtgBcB2CsAIkHR55i4KhQqFV2gDEB0AH1J5HSV0dR3SHRADkQGQ a3UdAHMfonAXoB5hF6AsnCBJIGAJ4B9Ad28e0GceYQeQHjAgVB9hJGBsyQSBICgA0GlkHREXoCwp IAPwFkFiHQBlYfp0CfAgA1IfQwuAAJANsL8lMABwJ3ALgB9AB3EgIoB/JCApxBHwBaAp8CUwH1Jq nm8LgB7xKiYekGdoBUC3AhAm4CAydyqxKKF1KfCDIzIfYTQ1IFBTJVC5IUBwaSPQAyAfIWYKUHsD IAuAagWQKlACICZRSRonKyF0A2AaoGx5IPsXoAWgbQeAKfEc4B6iMVD3CeADIDADbAuAB5EgQjLz 9y9wL3AesXQl0ADQMgELUP0EAGgfQQQAJlQc8zIiHvH3CsAJ8ByxYh5QCYAfEAOgMm0xwGV4HVEI kG5jfSUiJykAANAjYAdAMbNn3QhwZx7gKIAeoncRwAVA9yRiAiAfcWEncDTwLXEHgP8lMDKROOAl QSthKYIXoR9D/HNhH7E10R6xKEACEBeg/SVBZyARIrQ1YRIAKFEaoO8zoR9BOvElUGQnYCFtCvQR M5AxODAC0WktMTw0NA3wDNBDMwtZMTbPCqADYCiQMJAgLUVXCofXRAsMMETWRgNhOkZeRNa3DIIG ACiQcBYgA6BEI3Dgb3Zza3lF/0cNBmAfAjBIP0lLJoAIcHNkYZp5JTBKLkAdADI2JTCAMTk5NyA5 OkMwzS8ATUsfRw1Ub01fSUtJQRB5Xw3AaUAFoHVLFzAG0C5AMS5vImBvzi0xUCiBVhBkdVEvTC5f I3AwclNPSUswA3ILcGzzQV9CYzM2Q9cUIgwBRNZ9JmBIFjE1ARZAJTBDAG5dOaNnEgA6gzgxOFDg MtguNUwr8AngcB0QFiAfA2AkMClCMHI30URJWbAtRUZJCoUxUHkigLcmVUTRAmBlKQAlUHceUD07 kXY6k2VhKiEDgXVm9zliBRAesWFbiDDiCoUG4P51LRIDkS1jO3EfIB8wZ1HdCGEtN6AaoB1hbRzg AZA9PmJ1ICEfMFWhEeEgbv9plB9CXJ9D1xvVRNYKhRbBAgBwQAADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAQAAH MNA92/36grwBQAAIMNA92/36grwBHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAAADAA00/TcAAJuN - --Boundary_(ID_eOyA6jJKZqYPrloAjcruuA)-- ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 09:06:29 -0400 Subject: RE: GM TPI auto trans -> manual? - --Boundary_(ID_n519J/saH4iks5s+7JsVCg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hey George! Yes, that's the converter locking up on ya. Bet it doesn't do it in second or first. - ---------- From: George M. Dailey Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 9:48 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: GM TPI auto trans -> manual? My 700r4 has a quirk. When I manually shift and hold third gear, I feel what seems to be a light shift, converter clutch I assume. Is this so? Also, is the converter clutch supposed to engage immediately after 4th gear or wait a few seconds before comming in? - --Boundary_(ID_n519J/saH4iks5s+7JsVCg) Content-type: application/ms-tnef Content-transfer-encoding: base64 eJ8+IisQAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAZAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAYwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGRpeV9lZmlAY291bG9t Yi5lbmcub2hpby1zdGF0ZS5lZHUAU01UUABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUu ZWR1AAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAIwAAAGRpeV9lZmlAY291bG9tYi5lbmcu b2hpby1zdGF0ZS5lZHUAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAACUAAAAnZGl5X2VmaUBjb3Vs b21iLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdScAAAAAAgELMAEAAAAoAAAAU01UUDpESVlfRUZJQENPVUxP TUIuRU5HLk9ISU8tU1RBVEUuRURVAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAAC2k0B BIABACEAAABSRTogR00gVFBJIGF1dG8gdHJhbnMgLT4gbWFudWFsPwAbCgEFgAMADgAAAM0HBgAb AAkABgAdAAUAJgEBIIADAA4AAADNBwYAGwAJAAUAJAAFACwBAQmAAQAhAAAAMDVBODMwNzZFQ0VF RDAxMUJDRjgwMEEwMjQ4NTUyN0YAIQcBA5AGAFAEAAAUAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsAKQAA AAAAAwAuAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQBwTizt+oK8AR4AcAABAAAAIQAAAFJFOiBHTSBUUEkgYXV0 byB0cmFucyAtPiBtYW51YWw/AAAAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG8gvrtKnYwqAbu7BHQvPgAoCSFUn8A AB4AHgwBAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAfDAEAAAAgAAAAZnJlZGVyaWMuYnJlaXR3aWVzZXJAbWNp b25lLmNvbQADAAYQZmBr2QMABxCXAQAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAASEVZR0VPUkdFWUVTLFRIQVRTVEhF Q09OVkVSVEVSTE9DS0lOR1VQT05ZQUJFVElURE9FU05URE9JVElOU0VDT05ET1JGSVJTVC0tLS0t LS0tLS1GUk9NOkdFT1JHRU1EQUlMRQAAAAACAQkQAQAAAK8CAACrAgAApAQAAExaRnXpv9aI/wAK AQ8CFQKkA+QF6wKDAFATA1QCAGNoCsBzZXTuMgYABsMCgzIDxgcTAoMiMw96aGVsAyBEbOpnAoM0 Ew19CoAIzwnZ4jsXnzI1NQKACoENscELYG5nMTAzFCALCgsS8gwBYwBAIEhleYggR2UFsGdlIQqF RQqFWQeQLCB0EcB0JicEIB5gZSAFoG52lQSQdASQIBcwY2sLgCBnIHVwIAIgIHkgYS4gIEISACBp yQVAZG8HkG4nITIhEm0LgCAR8B8RZCBQBcBmMmkR4HQuHTwK9GxpCDE4MALRaS0xNJ40DfAM0CVD C1kxNgqg6wNgH3BjBUAtJ2cKhyYb6wwwJuZGA2E6KG4m5gyC1xy1BdAgsEQLcGwckCgPnykdBmAC MCpPK1tUaAhwEHNkYXkeQEp1bgke8DI2HkAxOTk3ACA5OjQ4IFBNMy0vKR1Uby9vK1tkaaR5Xw3A aUAFoHUXMAUG0C4J8Gcub2hpLG8tIzAegGU4IGR14zM/Lj51YmonITVfK1skUmU7wEdNMTBQSZAg YXV0IeB0cgYiqC0+IAOBdQdAPyNveSRzMzYl5xXCDAEm5k3FHKA3JOByNCARwAQgUGEgcXUjEGsg sFevFPADoD4wPzRsHKBzOID3AYA+QCKhaAbwIrAeYCMQ3yKwHQAKwB5APjBmCeADIM53HnEKhRHw ZW0esSHgzmIe8ENwJKBnaAVARQPrHkAfGGMKQHQRsERBQ0Dsc3UHgCCwSR6yBAAiUPRvPxNwbEuw HkAEAAqFxx7cSiVK0HBwbxHwRdH7IeA4MWEsYQdwB4A3MDjh7UTRYQGAH4E0HmBGQyLC/ncLcEVB CoVG0AfgImQEIP9IYAIQF6AfAU9wH/ILgD+WX0CPG7cm5gqFFsEAVzAAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAAAA AEAABzBwo8nN+oK8AUAACDBwo8nN+oK8AR4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAAwANNP03AADkMQ== - --Boundary_(ID_n519J/saH4iks5s+7JsVCg)-- ------------------------------ From: Doug Yip Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 09:26:46 -0700 Subject: Re: CNG Injectors Antonio De Vuono: ServoJet Products International in San Diego, CA (619-270-6760) makes gaseous injectors. They have several sizes available. The injectors are designed for use with peak and hold drivers. - -- Doug Yip Digicon Engineering Incorporated http://mindlink.net/digicon ------------------------------ From: "Peter Rueb" Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 20:08:18 +0200 Subject: Knock Sensor signal level I want to amplify a signal of a knock sensor to feed it to a A/D conv and later to serial port of a laptop.I kow that frequency varies from 5 - 10kHz or maybe up to 15KHz. Can anyone tell me what voltage level i can expect from that little piezo thing. I doubt that it can be more than +-20mV. I have no access to a scope and my simple DMM shurely is the wrong tool. Thanks, Peter s68558@xxx.de ------------------------------ From: Fred Miranda Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 14:12:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Knock Sensor signal level I think it can be quite a bit more than 20mv. Seems to depend on the particular type. I just checked a Mazda(ND) unit and got some pulses of 35v pk. Thats by rapping on it with a wrench while holding it in my hand. (storage scope very handy here ;-) ) >From what I recall the GM units seemed more sensitive. Thought I had one around but couldn't find it to test. Haven't checked one in a car. (yet) Fred At 08:08 PM 6/27/97 +0200, you wrote: >I want to amplify a signal of a knock sensor to feed it to a A/D conv and >later to serial port of a laptop.I kow that frequency varies from 5 - 10kHz >or maybe up to 15KHz. >Can anyone tell me what voltage level i can expect from that little piezo >thing. I doubt that it can be more than +-20mV. I have no access to a scope >and my simple DMM shurely is the wrong tool. >Thanks, >Peter >s68558@xxx.de > > ------------------------------ From: Ric Rainbolt Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 14:52:24 -0500 Subject: RE: fuel rail <> Also, copper lines will work harden due to the heat cycling of underhood temps and eventually break from the vibration. Copper is also unlikely to be compatible with a wide array of fuel additives. Two racecar building books I have specifically speak against the use of copper plumbing, especially for fuel. I use steel hard lines or aluminum rails in conjunction with braided steel reinforced lines. Ric Rainbolt ------------------------------ From: jb24@xxx.com Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 15:49:17 -0400 Subject: RE: fuel rail Actually, the 2.5L Jeep engine is made by Chrysler, in the same plant as the 4.0L I6. It is a REALLY old design. John Bucknell ------------------------------ From: "Steve Meade" Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 13:42:26 -0700 Subject: Re: fuel rail - ---------- > From: jb24@xxx.com > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: RE: fuel rail > Date: Friday, June 27, 1997 12:49 PM > > Actually, the 2.5L Jeep engine is made by Chrysler, in the same plant > as the 4.0L I6. It is a REALLY old design. > When I had my '85 Jeep Cherokee (Pre Chrsyler takeover) I had a choice between a GM 2.8 V6 and a GM 2.5L I4. I'm pretty sure all of the early 2.5's were GM engines. One can probably use the fuel rail from a later fuel-injected Chevrolet Celebrity or any application with the fuel injected 2.5. (Fiero?) > John Bucknell =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Steve Meade smeade@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Joe Boucher Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 16:21:47 -0500 Subject: Big overlap cams and EFI The guy at Turbo City that will burn custom prom chips for GM EFI told me the maximum intake duration he can burn a chip for is 220 degrees. What is the problem? It 's centered around the vacuum signal, correct? Is the MAP sensor incapable of keeping up with the rate of change or magnitude of the signal? Does the vacuum get too low (air pressure too high) versus the map in the prom? If you didn't care about emisions, could you program the prom so the manifold pressure is ignored when the throttle position is at idle and just squirts a certain amount of fuel based on coolant temperature? With a MAP based fuel management system is the fluctuation of the vacuum signal at low RPM's too wild versus the sampling rate of the computer to determine the dwell of the injectors. In other words, I don't have a clue why this is. Thanks, Joe Boucher '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Camaro Bedford, TX ------------------------------ From: Chad Clendening Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 16:26:03 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Knock Sensor signal level I recently took readings on the knock sensor of a 85 Chrysler 2.2 turbo ECU. I inputted DC because it is easier than AC. Here are the results. The input is in volts DC and the output is the 8 bit hex value from the a/d. in a/d reading knock 0 0e 0.011 0d 0.1 18 0.153 0e 0.427 0f 0.527 10 0.543 11 0.667 14 0.765 17 1.12 23 1.18 26 1.65 37 1.67 38 2.885 65 4.33 DE 4.72 f3 Chad ------------------------------ From: pantera@xxx.com (David Doddek) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 18:57:25 -0500 (CDT) Subject: RE: fuel rail ><variety. > >While the copper tubing can take some pressure, I see two issues. The >solder (acid core) will be eaten from the inside, and in time leak, and >second, the joints in time might fold or weaken under the 45 PSI typical of >fuel injection. I'd strongly recommend using steel fuel lines or steel >piping to accomplish this. These comments aren't based on my experience, >I'm actually regurgitating what someone had told me, since I considered the >same thing before I got the complete engine that I did.>> > >Also, copper lines will work harden due to the heat cycling of underhood >temps and eventually break from the vibration. Copper is also unlikely to >be compatible with a wide array of fuel additives. Two racecar building >books I have specifically speak against the use of copper plumbing, >especially for fuel. > >I use steel hard lines or aluminum rails in conjunction with braided steel >reinforced lines. > >Ric Rainbolt > > > Copper is compatable with about almost anything but acid. The big problem with copper tubing is that it may flake of small bits of copper from the manufacturing process that may plug up jets and stuff. Also copper is soft and may damage or fatigue easily when exposed to vibration or foreign objects, ie a rock. David Doddek pantera@xxx.com/~pantera 217-422-3722 69 EFI Fairlane, 89 T-bird SC, 74 Twin turbo NOS EFI Pantera #6825 If you are going to go fast, go real fast. ------------------------------ From: "Greg Abarr" Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 18:55:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Big overlap cams and EFI Joe Boucher You can use the remote vacuum pumps [external] that came on many of the GM cars of the 80s if you have a low vacuum. Good Luck Greg Abarr ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 20:14:11 -0400 Subject: Re: fuel rail The 2.2 Chrysler engines used in front wheel drive vehicles are overgrown copies of the VW 1.6 used in the Rabbit. It was designed in the late '70s when Chrysler copied the Rabbit, enlarged it a bit, and made the Omni. The 2.5 appeared later and is a long stroke (over 4 inches) tall deck version of the 2.2. The 2.5 Jeep engine was the old Iron Duke Pontiac engine but AMC later changed to its own 2.5 based on the 4.0 6 cyl. Chrysler continued to use the 2.5 AMC engine for a while in Jeeps. I'm not sure what 4cyl they use today. Gary Derian - ---------- From: Frederic Breitwieser To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu' Subject: RE: fuel rail Date: Friday, 27 June, 1997 9:15 AM Hey, something I know about (at least a little!) The 2.2l (non turbo) and the 2.0 are very similar, and share a lot of common parts, however have some overall block differences. The 2.5L (as put in plymouth, dodge, and chrysler, not sure about jeep) is not related to either of the above engines, was a different design altogether. The 2.6L Mitsubishi built engine ('79-83ish) was an excellent engine, a little noisy in the valve area, but was considered a "hemi" engine. I have experience with the 2.2L turbo, the 2.5L non-turbo, and the 2.6L as I owned a few Plymouth Reliants while in college. I thought the smaller Jeep engines were outsourced from GM? Fred - ---------- From: James Boughton Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 11:01 PM To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu' Subject: RE: fuel rail Stephen, Do you know the bore spacing on the 2.5L Jeep engine? I'm not sure if that engine was a derivative of the 2.2L Chrysler engine or not. I am pretty sure the 2.2L Chrysler engine and the new 2.0L Chrysler engines share the same bore spacing of 96mm. If the 2.5L Jeep engine also shares this bore spacing all you need is a fuel rail from a neon and you should be set. Jim Boughton boughton@xxx.net Owner - Boughton Engine Systems Technology (B.E.S.T.) - ---------- ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 20:18:33 -0400 Subject: RE: fuel rail Then I stand corrected. Thanks for bringing me up to date :) On Friday, June 27, 1997 3:49 PM, jb24@xxx.com [SMTP:jb24@xxx.com] wrote: > Actually, the 2.5L Jeep engine is made by Chrysler, in the same plant > as the 4.0L I6. It is a REALLY old design. > > John Bucknell ------------------------------ From: Jim Davies Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 20:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: fuel rail On Fri, 27 Jun 1997 jb24@xxx.com wrote: > Actually, the 2.5L Jeep engine is made by Chrysler, in the same plant > as the 4.0L I6. It is a REALLY old design. > Well, first there was the AM 232 6cyl, then the 258, then they cut 2 cylinders off it (which later became the 2.5L) then they added 2 cylinders to the 2.5 to make the 4.0 I6...in a nutshell Jim Davies ------------------------------ From: Jim Davies Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 20:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 2.5 L engines On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, Gary Derian wrote: > The 2.2 Chrysler engines used in front wheel drive vehicles are overgrown > copies of the VW 1.6 used in the Rabbit. Wrong. The 2.2 and 2.5 were new designs from Chrysler...got the SAE paper around here somewhere. > AMC later changed to its own 2.5 based on the 4.0 6 cyl. Chrysler > continued to use the 2.5 AMC engine for a while in Jeeps. I'm not sure > what 4cyl they use today. > The 2.5 Chrysler engine is not around anymore; they sold a line to China, maybe it was their only production line (I don't know) The 2.5 pushrod x-AMC 4 is still used, now it's also in Daks. Jim Davies ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #218 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".