DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, 1 July 1997 Volume 02 : Number 221 In this issue: Re: Holley fuel pump fuel rail needed Re: lookup tables RE: '89 Firebird ECM PROM Re: TPI on a 6cyl Re: TPI on a 6cyl RE: '89 Firebird ECM PROM Re: 2.5 L engines Re: fuel rail needed Re: Info needed on porting details for a stock Tuned Port Intake manifold MAP Sensor Location Re: TPI on a 6cyl Re: Holley fuel pump Re: Info needed on porting details for a stock Tuned Port Intake manifold Chrysler 2.5L turbo questions... Re: TPI on a 6cyl Re: TPI on a 6cyl Re: fuel rail needed Re: Info needed on porting details for a stock Tuned Port Intake manifold Re: TPI on a 6cyl Re: Supra MAF ----> MAP or bigger MAF Aftermarket ECM suppliers (esp. EEC-IV) RE: Please post RE: Big overlap cams and EFI See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cloud@xxx.edu (Tom Cloud) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 07:58:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Holley fuel pump >> I fitted a holley fuel pump on my celica not too long ago. Count your >> blessings you have a stereo: i haven't put mine back in yet! Mine changes >> pitch with the indicator!! >> >> Is this pump running at high pressure? > >Bruno, >Not real high. It is the pump holley normally sells with their pro-jection >FI conversion kits. I think Holley told me it does upto 30psi. I guess I'm confused -- the big red and blue Holley gerotor pumps are LOUD! and have about 7 - 10 psi output pressure -- they're designed to replace the old mechanical pump and to drive a carb. I have one of those in series before the high-pressure Carter pump on my ProJection. The smaller Carter in-line pump that comes with the ProJection is designed to feed into a 15 - 20 psi regulator and makes no noticeable noise above the normal cabin noise of my Bronco (I've had two of the Carter pumps -- thought the first was bad when it was a clogged pickup sock in the tank). Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: "Watson, Bill" Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 06:28:00 -0700 Subject: fuel rail needed James writes; - ------------------------------------------------------------------ I priced fuel rail (made by MSD) at my local speed shop andd they wanted $50 for 2 feet. I'm doing a V8 so that's $100 !!!!! Is this is line with what everybody else has paid? Any body got a cheaper source? - ------------------------------------------------------------------ I found extruded aluminum fuel rail cheaply at my local DFI dealer; 6 feet was $28. We did 2 V8's with the one piece. You must thread the ends for fittings and drill holes for the injectors, plus build a rail retention method. Bill ------------------------------ From: Mark Taschek Date: Mon, 30 Jun 97 8:34:51 CDT Subject: Re: lookup tables > > > Has anyone in the group ever looked at factory prom > lookup tables... Can anyone tell from looking at the > hex values which are for timing and which are for the MAP????? > > thanks > Mark Taschek > mtaschek@xxx.com > ------------------------------ From: John Hess Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 08:40:57 -0500 Subject: RE: '89 Firebird ECM PROM It is, in fact, a 27C128S. This is a common 128K (bit) EPROM. >---------- >From: Terry Martin[SMTP:terry_martin@xxx.ca] >Sent: Sunday, June 22, 1997 4:02 PM >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >Subject: '89 Firebird ECM PROM > >I got a ECM out of a '89 Firebird Trans Am GTA. I pulled the following >number out of the PROM by looking through the quartz window with a >microscope: > >(M)1984 TI > 27C128A ....could be 27C12HH, or some variation of the last two >digits. > >Question: Is this the right PROM for the ECM that's supposed to be in >this type of vehicle? I have not found a reference to the numbers that >would indicate it's a 8051 or 8065, etc. > >Alternatively, can someone confirm the manufacturer and # of the PROM? > >Thanks much, >Terry > ------------------------------ From: peter paul fenske Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 08:45:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: TPI on a 6cyl Hi Thomas Well you got a few choices.. If using GM you could use the Sy calibration and a #730 ECM. You might have to tweak the VE tables a bit.. Other wise use the #730 ECM with Map for a 3.1 V6. bumping the fuel pressure a bit will move the cal up and CL should enable low rpm operation.. However the HP is a bit limited.. The Chev V6 also used a frequency based MAF. Not a good system since the factory upgrade was to MAP rather than replace the broken MAF. OFten.... The only thing I would worry about is obtaining a distributer signal for the ECM. I also though the fuel injection was on the jag 6 Should be able to get that running with the ecm.. GL:peter >made, and will make to the car. The L jet system is very restrictive >,and from what I have read, stops increasing the supply of fuel after >4000 RPM. The modifications to my engine so far are: a freer flowing >exhaust, gas flowed head, hotter cams and a TH700R4 tranny. >After following this list for a while, I have decided that making my own >fuel injection system from scratch is way over my head, and an >aftermarket system is way over my budget. Therefore, I would like to >try and adapt the system from another care to mine. >I was thinking about a TPI system with an Mass Air Flow meter. Although >an MAF may be somewhat restrictive, it's got to be better than the air >flow meter on my L-Jet, and it would eliminate some of the tuning >problems I would have trying to adapt a MAP based system. >I have about a thousand and one questions, but I will limit them to just >a few, since I have rattled on long enough already. >Am I right in assuming that if I match a MAF to the right sized >injectors, then all else aside, It would eliminate most tuning problems >(from an A/F stand point)? >It is my understanding that MAF systems are calibrated to a certain max >HP. Therefore I would need a system from a 350 V8. (I estimate my HP >potential right now to be about 225HP, and more in the future.) But I >have a 6cyl. I figure the 6cyl ignition signal being sent to an ECM >that thinks it is getting a signal from an 8cyl would throw the >injection timing off. Is there a way around this? (I am not looking to >control the ignition timing.) Is there a common MAF system (i.e. not >Buick GN) for a 6cyl that can handle 200 - 300 HP range? Late eighties >Chevy IROCs are easy to come by for salvaging parts, therefore I would >prefer to adapt one of these V8 systems. >I have many more specific questions, but I'll just leave it to these >basic ones, first. >Thanks >Tom Wright > > > ------------------------------ From: "Christopher G. Moog" Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:52:17 -0400 Subject: Re: TPI on a 6cyl Thomas Wright wrote: > > Is there a common MAF system (i.e. not > Buick GN) for a 6cyl that can handle 200 - 300 HP range? Late eighties > Chevy IROCs are easy to come by for salvaging parts, therefore I would > prefer to adapt one of these V8 systems. > I have many more specific questions, but I'll just leave it to these > basic ones, first. > Thanks > Tom Wright Ford T-Bird Supercoupe, Buick 3.8L Supercharged (Pontiac Bonneville, Park Ave),300Z, several BMWs, Acura Legends, Lexus SC300, several Mercedes, Mitubishi 3000, Porche, Subaru SVX, Supra, Taurus SHO Best bets for junkyards Supercoupe (230hp), GM 3.8L supercharged (225hp), Acura Legends (200hp-230hp) remember V-8s will also be set up for eight injectors not six. ------------------------------ From: Terry Martin Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 09:49:55 -0700 Subject: RE: '89 Firebird ECM PROM - ---------- From: John Hess[SMTP:JohnH@xxx.net] Sent: Monday, June 30, 1997 6:40 AM To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu' Subject: RE: '89 Firebird ECM PROM It is, in fact, a 27C128S. This is a common 128K (bit) EPROM. Many thanks, my ignorance is being rapidly cleared away by unselfish individuals such as yourself. Terry begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(@P0`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$-@ 0` M`@````$``0`!!) &`&0!```!````# ````,``# #````"P`/#@`````"`?\/ M`0```&,`````````@2L?I+ZC$!F=;@#=`0]4`@````!D:7E?969I0&-O=6QO M;6(N96YG+F]H:6\M``,P`0`` M`",```!D:7E?969I0&-O=6QO;6(N96YG+F]H:6\M5]E9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``D`,0`W``$` M:@xxx.#0T-#4U,S4T,# P, #4 M!@$#D 8`M ,``!(````+`",```````,`)@`!````"P`I```````#`#8````` M`$ `.0``E#*C=86\`1X`< `!````&@xxx.#D@1FER96)I M`!X,`0````4```!33510`````!X`'PP!````' ```'1EL"@P!0`O()`@!C: K M]PJ'':OK## >=D8#83H?_AYV#()0($IO: .@2 >009&EY7PW :4 %H)9U%: &T"X)\&\BZU)%-' G.#D5(8!I%A!B M-N!D($7 0TT@4%)/*[8;;=PS-AUW&D4>=DD%0 0`4RI0"X @9@#0="I080`@ M,C=#,3(X4_PN("VP,2 $(#S!.^ E0D<"("KP/$!+("@W$'1V*3=0-Z(N"H\: M'S[R39$`<'D@=!& ;FL[(6)M05!I9VX%L !P8Y,JH#S!8F4+@&<@0F 0<&ED M;$%08VQE]PK "8 [T'3A?.6\>A3?O21\+TPM*]A4Q`$XP``,` M$! ``````P`1$ ````! ```#T``0`` /``4```!213H@`````' > James writes; > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > I priced fuel rail (made by MSD) at my local speed shop andd they wanted > $50 > for 2 feet. I'm doing a V8 so that's $100 !!!!! Is this is line with > what > everybody else has paid? Any body got a cheaper source? > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > I found extruded aluminum fuel rail cheaply at my local DFI dealer; 6 > feet > was $28. We did 2 V8's with the one piece. You must thread the ends > for > fittings and drill holes for the injectors, plus build a rail retention > method. > > Bill Do you have a part number and their phone number and/or address? Thanks, Bill Moffitt ------------------------------ From: Clint Sharp Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 08:11:45 +0100 Subject: Re: Info needed on porting details for a stock Tuned Port Intake manifold In message <33B7318C.2D13E7DB@xxx.edu>, Thomas Wright writes >I have one small piece of advice, Gasket matching head is OK, but gasket >matching the intake manifold is risky. >If you gasket match the head AND the intake manifold, there is no >guarantee that they will match up perfectly when bolted together. There >will always be some play when mounting the manifold (and the gasket) on >the head, and if there is even the smallest area where the incoming air >hits an even slightly protruding edge of the manifold gasket or head, >then all your porting work will be undone. How about dowelling the manifold and head and then doing the flow work? You are then guaranteed alignment unless you screw up the dowels > ALWAYS leave the intake >manifold port slightly smaller in diameter than the head port. Moving >from a smaller port to a larger one won't disrupt the flow in any >measurable sense, and in addition, the anti-reversion properties are >more beneficial than a perfectly matched port (which is next to >impossible to achieve anyhow.) >Tom Wright - -- Clint Sharp ------------------------------ From: Mark Eidson Date: Mon, 30 Jun 97 11:20:00 PDT Subject: MAP Sensor Location Text item: Here is a question for the group: Does it make sense to locate the MAP sensor between the throttle body and turbo or supercharger? If one did this the normal map sensor can be used and the fuel map adjusted based on RPM and MAP. me ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: RE: '89 Firebird ECM PROM Author: owner-diy_efi-outgoing@xxx.edu at SMTPGATE Date: 6/30/97 9:49 AM - ---------- From: John Hess[SMTP:JohnH@xxx.net] Sent: Monday, June 30, 1997 6:40 AM To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu' Subject: RE: '89 Firebird ECM PROM It is, in fact, a 27C128S. This is a common 128K (bit) EPROM. Many thanks, my ignorance is being rapidly cleared away by unselfish individuals such as yourself. Terry begin 644 winmail.dat M>)\^(@P0`0:0"``$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y`0```````#H``$-@`0` M`@````$``0`!!)`&`&0!```!````#`````,``#`#````"P`/#@`````"`?\/ M`0```&,`````````@2L?I+ZC$!F=;@#=`0]4`@````!D:7E?969I0&-O=6QO M;6(N96YG+F]H:6\M``,P`0`` M`",```!D:7E?969I0&-O=6QO;6(N96YG+F]H:6\M5]E9FE`8V]U;&]M8BYE;F``D`,0`W``$` M:@xxx.#0T-#4U,S4T,#`P,`#4 M!@$#D`8`M`,``!(````+`",```````,`)@`!````"P`I```````#`#8````` M`$``.0``E#*C=86\`1X`<``!````&@xxx.#D@1FER96)I M`!X,`0````4```!33510`````!X`'PP!````'````'1EL"@P!0`O()`@!C:`K` M]PJ'':OK##`>=D8#83H?_AYV#()0($IO:`.@2`>009&EY7PW`:4`%H)9U%:`&T"X)\&\BZU)%-'`G.#D5(8!I%A!B M-N!D($7`0TT@4%)/*[8;;=PS-AUW&D4>=DD%0`0`4RI0"X`@9@#0="I080`@ M,C=#,3(X4_PN("VP,2`$(#S!.^`E0D<"("KP/$!+("@W$'1V*3=0-Z(N"H\: M'S[R39$`<'D@=!&`;FL[(6)M05!I9VX%L`!P8Y,JH#S!8F4+@&<@0F`0<&ED M;$%08VQE]PK`"8`[T'3A?.6\>A3?O21\+TPM*]A4Q`$XP``,` M$!```````P`1$`````!````#T``0`` /``4```!213H@`````' From: Terry Martin Message-ID: <01BC853B.0112B860@xxx.net> Received: by line006.abb.mindlink.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BC853B.0112B860@xxx.net>; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 09:50:12 - -0700 Received: from line006.abb.mindlink.net [204.174.29.13] by dewey.mindlink.net with smtp (Exim 1.61 #1) id 0wijhP-0006CQ-00; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 09:53:12 -0700 Received: from dewey.mindlink.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816 .SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA19167; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:5 3:13 -0400 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id QAA19172; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 16:53:18 GMT Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu by thalia.fm.intel.com (8.8.4/10.0i); Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:58:03 GMT Received: from thalia.fm.intel.com (thalia.fm.intel.com [132.233.247.11]) by chm ail.ch.intel.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA17866 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:53:09 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: owner-diy_efi-outgoing@xxx.edu ------------------------------ From: "Corey L. Cole" Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 11:42:24 -0700 Subject: Re: TPI on a 6cyl > Thomas Wright wrote: > > > > Is there a common MAF system (i.e. not > > Buick GN) for a 6cyl that can handle 200 - 300 HP range? Late eighties > > Chevy IROCs are easy to come by for salvaging parts, therefore I would > > prefer to adapt one of these V8 systems. > > I have many more specific questions, but I'll just leave it to these > > basic ones, first. > > Thanks > > Tom Wright Why not the Buick GN? It's not really a special ECM. All GM did was give the put a "turbo" calpack into the 6 cyl ECM. Them there ECMs are a dime a dozen, and with all the GN tweakers, it's pretty well understood what works best. - -- ============================================================================== Corey L. Cole | I was standing on the side of the road, M/S 19-HH | rain falling on my shoe. E-mail: corey.l.cole@xxx.com | I was heading for the east coast, Phone: 206-662-3596 | Lord knows I've paid some dues. | Tangled up in blue. ============================================================================== ------------------------------ From: Johnny Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 11:57:20 -0700 Subject: Re: Holley fuel pump Tom Cloud wrote: > > >> I fitted a holley fuel pump on my celica not too long ago. Count your > >> blessings you have a stereo: i haven't put mine back in yet! Mine changes > >> pitch with the indicator!! > >> > >> Is this pump running at high pressure? > > > >Bruno, > >Not real high. It is the pump holley normally sells with their pro-jection > >FI conversion kits. I think Holley told me it does upto 30psi. > > I guess I'm confused -- the big red and blue Holley gerotor > pumps are LOUD! and have about 7 - 10 psi output pressure -- they're > designed to replace the old mechanical pump and to drive a carb. > I have one of those in series before the high-pressure Carter > pump on my ProJection. The smaller Carter in-line pump that > comes with the ProJection is designed to feed into a 15 - 20 psi > regulator and makes no noticeable noise above the normal cabin > noise of my Bronco (I've had two of the Carter pumps -- thought > the first was bad when it was a clogged pickup sock in the tank). The difference between the Red Holley and the Blue Holley is the line pressure. It's typically about 15 psi on the Red one. Blue one is 7. At least that's what my fuel pressure guage shows. - -j- ------------------------------ From: Thomas Wright Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 15:21:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Info needed on porting details for a stock Tuned Port Intake manifold Clint Sharp wrote: > In message <33B7318C.2D13E7DB@xxx.edu>, Thomas Wright > writes > >I have one small piece of advice, Gasket matching head is OK, but > gasket > >matching the intake manifold is risky. > > >If you gasket match the head AND the intake manifold, there is no > >guarantee that they will match up perfectly when bolted together. > There > >will always be some play when mounting the manifold (and the gasket) > on > >the head, and if there is even the smallest area where the incoming > air > >hits an even slightly protruding edge of the manifold gasket or head, > > >then all your porting work will be undone. > How about dowelling the manifold and head and then doing the flow > work? > You are then guaranteed alignment unless you screw up the dowels Of course, you're right about that, and believe it or not, I new about that solution, but is it really worth it? I would be willing to bet that if you tested it on a bench, that you could not even measure the benefit of having it matched that closely. In real life, however, there is a real benefit to the anti reversion properties of a smaller intake manifold port>larger head port (reversed on the exhaust side), especially if running radical cams. (which I assume any gasket matcher would be doing!) Also, the real price of messing up way exceeds any theoretical benefit. > > ALWAYS leave the intake > >manifold port slightly smaller in diameter than the head port. > Moving > >from a smaller port to a larger one won't disrupt the flow in any > >measurable sense, and in addition, the anti-reversion properties are > >more beneficial than a perfectly matched port (which is next to > >impossible to achieve anyhow.) > > >Tom Wright > > -- > Clint Sharp Tom Wright ------------------------------ From: Corey Stup Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 15:59:36 -0400 Subject: Chrysler 2.5L turbo questions... Sorry to be a bit off topic, but I'm attemping to research some problems on a '89 Dodge Shadow ES Turbo with the 2.5L-4 turbo motor. Does anyone have any experience with this setup? Specifically, I'm in need of information such as weather this EFI system has a scanner connection, and normal problems with this motor. Currently, it seems that the turbo is toast, and its seals have finally failed to the point of letting oil into the exhaust system. The car hasn't run correctly for the last 2 or 3 years, getting VERY poor gas mileage, stalling unexpectantly, running VERY rough, etc. There was a point where the turbo would go into overboost (the factory gauge [how accurate, I don't know] would peg way past the 15psi mark), stalling the motor for a few seconds. This was "repaired" by someone seamingly making the wastegate open really soon. The car is at 130K with out much history of repairs. The motor case has never been cracked, nor has the head been off. Any information that anyone can give will be much appricated, and VERY helpful. Please keep traffic off the list, and email me directly at cstup@xxx. TIA! ------------------------------ From: Barney Ward Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 16:10:35 -0400 Subject: Re: TPI on a 6cyl Christopher G. Moog wrote: > > Thomas Wright wrote: > > > > Is there a common MAF system (i.e. not > > Buick GN) for a 6cyl that can handle 200 - 300 HP range? Late eighties > > Chevy IROCs are easy to come by for salvaging parts, therefore I would > > prefer to adapt one of these V8 systems. > > I have many more specific questions, but I'll just leave it to these > > basic ones, first. > > Thanks > > Tom Wright > > Ford T-Bird Supercoupe, Buick 3.8L Supercharged (Pontiac Bonneville, > Park Ave),300Z, several BMWs, Acura Legends, Lexus SC300, several > Mercedes, Mitubishi 3000, Porche, Subaru SVX, Supra, Taurus SHO > > Best bets for junkyards Supercoupe (230hp), GM 3.8L supercharged > (225hp), Acura Legends (200hp-230hp) remember V-8s will also be set up > for eight injectors not six. Don't forget Audi V6! ------------------------------ From: Thomas Wright Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 16:25:57 -0400 Subject: Re: TPI on a 6cyl Corey L. Cole wrote: > > Thomas Wright wrote: > > > > > > Is there a common MAF system (i.e. not > > > Buick GN) for a 6cyl that can handle 200 - 300 HP range? Late > eighties > > > Chevy IROCs are easy to come by for salvaging parts, therefore I > would > > > prefer to adapt one of these V8 systems. > > > I have many more specific questions, but I'll just leave it to > these > > > basic ones, first. > > > Thanks > > > Tom Wright > > Why not the Buick GN? It's not really a special ECM. All GM did was > give > the put a "turbo" calpack into the 6 cyl ECM. Them there ECMs are a > dime > a dozen, and with all the GN tweakers, it's pretty well understood > what works > best. > Are you saying that the GN system is the same as other buick 6cyl FI systems of the same time period with just a different EPROM?I don't know much about different GM systems and the years and models during which things changed. I just know a little about TPI systems since there is so much on the web and in catalogs for those things. I have also seen numerous sites on Buick turbos, but figured it was a special system for GN. Is the MAF different between GNs and non turbo buicks? Do non turbo buicks have the distributorless ignitions? I am interested in something REALLY common, so that I can get it from the local junkyard CHEAP! Any information or source of information on different GM systems including models and the years of changes on common cars would be extremely helpful. Thanks Tom > -- > == > =========================================================================== > > Corey L. Cole | I was standing on the side of the > road, > M/S 19-HH | rain falling on my shoe. > E-mail: corey.l.cole@xxx.com | I was heading for the east coast, > Phone: 206-662-3596 | Lord knows I've paid some dues. > | Tangled up in blue. > ======================================================= > ====================== ------------------------------ From: "Watson, Bill" Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 13:10:00 -0700 Subject: Re: fuel rail needed Bill Moffitt writes about fuel rails; Do you have a part number and their phone number and/or address? - ------------------------------ Yes. It was simply known as 'bulk fuel rail'. It was one piece, 6 feet long. I got it at: Arizona Speed and Marine 4834 S. 40th Street Phoenix, AZ (602) 437-2510 PS... Don't let on to its reasonable price as they'll gouge whenever they can. Bill W. ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (Tom Cloud) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 16:21:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Info needed on porting details for a stock Tuned Port Intake manifold >> >I have one small piece of advice, Gasket matching head is OK, but >> gasket >> >matching the intake manifold is risky. >> >> >If you gasket match the head AND the intake manifold, there is no >> >guarantee that they will match up perfectly when bolted together. >> There >> >will always be some play when mounting the manifold (and the gasket) >> on >> >the head, and if there is even the smallest area where the incoming >> air >> >hits an even slightly protruding edge of the manifold gasket or head, >> >> >then all your porting work will be undone. > >> How about dowelling the manifold and head and then doing the flow >> work? >> You are then guaranteed alignment unless you screw up the dowels how can you dowel something that mates on an angle ?? If the head is shaved or the gasket a little thicker or thinner (either the head or the intake gasket) it's not going to meet in the same place -- seems t'me you'd have to shave the intake flange to assure a fit if tolerances were on the tight side and then put in a compressible gasket to fill any gap if they were on the loose side just my $.02 .... watta I know ? Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: Orin Eman Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 15:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: TPI on a 6cyl > Christopher G. Moog wrote: > > > > Thomas Wright wrote: > > > > > > Is there a common MAF system (i.e. not > > > Buick GN) for a 6cyl that can handle 200 - 300 HP range? Late eighties > > > Chevy IROCs are easy to come by for salvaging parts, therefore I would > > > prefer to adapt one of these V8 systems. > > > I have many more specific questions, but I'll just leave it to these > > > basic ones, first. > > > Thanks > > > Tom Wright > > > > Ford T-Bird Supercoupe, Buick 3.8L Supercharged (Pontiac Bonneville, > > Park Ave),300Z, several BMWs, Acura Legends, Lexus SC300, several > > Mercedes, Mitubishi 3000, Porche, Subaru SVX, Supra, Taurus SHO > > > > Best bets for junkyards Supercoupe (230hp), GM 3.8L supercharged > > (225hp), Acura Legends (200hp-230hp) remember V-8s will also be set up > > for eight injectors not six. > Don't forget Audi V6! Only 172hp stock and even 30 valve version only 200hp and no large gains from the tuners. I'd have my doubts here... unlike the old 5 cyl turbo FI which is good for high 200s hp. ------------------------------ From: Ed Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 19:04:23 -0700 Subject: Re: Supra MAF ----> MAP or bigger MAF Brock and Jennifer Fraser wrote: > At what point does the factory MAF system run out of fuel metering capacity > (Hp level)? Is the primary goal to upgrade the injectors, or to eliminate > the MAF as an inlet restriction? I've never heard of a Toyota-specific MAF > upgrade. It's for both reasons: inlet restriction and injector upgrades. On MAF-equipped Supras, owners have mentioned a around a 5-8 mph loss in trap speed for 1/4 mile drags compared to a VPC-equipped car. > Any idea what the output signal is like on the Toyota sensor? I'm pretty > sure that Fords use a 0-5V output, although I'm just familiar with the GM > frequency-based sensors. If the Toyota sensor is a voltage proportional > sensor, then it might be straightforward to use a Ford-esque sensor, with > some tweaks. For that I'll have to ask around. - -Ed ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (Tom Cloud) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:18:26 -0500 Subject: Aftermarket ECM suppliers (esp. EEC-IV) There seem to be two channels of ECM availability: 1 - OEMs and the companies they authorize, who together provide remanufactured ECMs through dealer channels; 2 - and those involved in the remanufacturing of ECMs for the true automotive aftermarket. The names I have of the companies in category 2 (for the eec-iv) are (in alphabetical order): - A1 Cardone - Echlin http://www.echlin.com/ - Micro-Tech Automotive - Standard Motor Parts Searching the web found these URL's http://www.ultramall.com/Autodig/index.html http://www.ultramall.com/Autodig/suppcat/ignite/ecm.html which has a listing of ECM suppliers (including eec) A-1 Cardone Arles International Inc. Auto-Tune/BWD Automotive Corp. Autoport International BWD Automotive Corp. Echlin, Inc. Filko Flight Systems Inc. G. P. Sorensen The Hastings Company Holley Repalcement Parts Intermotor Ltd. Kem Manufacturing Company, Inc. M & #38; M Knopf Auto Parts, Inc. Lazorlite Import Parts Micro-Tech Automotive Ind. On Time Development, Inc. Parts Center International Inc. Product Research Inc. Regitar U.S.A., Inc. Standard Motor Products, Inc. Uritec Industrial Co., Ltd Vei Sheng Co., Ltd Walker Products, Inc. Wells Manufacturing Many remanufacturers work through both the traditional (distributors, jobbers, installers) and the growing non-traditional (retail and diy repair) channels. There typically is a core charge, refundable on return of an undamaged but non-functional product (sort of an oxy-moron ;-) One of the common problems of electronic remanufacturing and marketing is the effort to avoid the misuse (perhaps unintentional) of the product. The old electronics adage of "try using a known good replacement part" can lead to the destruction of a replacement ECM when one places it in the exact circuit and system which caused the first one to fail. In most cases, the ECM fails because something external to the ECM caused it to fail. All this is only background information and if someone needs further information to help develop their repair skills there ought to be someone on this list, the diy-efi list or other specialty groups that can help with problem identification and problem solving before the installation of the replacement ECM. Some of these companies catalog and offer product (or repair service) on almost 800 different ECM configurations for Ford-made vehicles in the model years from 1977-1993. Obviously, not all of these are EEC-IV units (I think EEC-IV first appeared around 1987 ??) and some of these are consolidations of applications where units have been proven and tested to be comparable. It seems reasonable that many of the different versions are identical in hardware, differing only in the software, so a *really uneducated* guess might be less than 100 units with any real hardware differences and how many of those differences are truly significant? The above number is only for Ford units so foreign made vehicles sold under the Ford nameplate would increase this number. Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: James Boughton Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 20:11:24 -0400 Subject: RE: Please post - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC8591.CBBC5200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The O2 sensor should be fine whether you are using it for gasoline or = LPG (assuming no lead in LPG), since the sensor reads exhaust gas oxygen = content. The oxygen content in the exhaust changes dramatically around = stoichiometric due the excess oxygen during lean operation. This will = occur at the proper stoichiometric point regardless of fuel. Jim Boughton boughton@xxx.net - ---------- From: Joe Boucher[SMTP:jboucher@xxx.net] Sent: Saturday, June 28, 1997 8:50 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: RE: Please post Here's another thought. If this system was a hack job, did they put in = a O2 sensor adapter. Propane stociometric (SP?) is around 15.5. If the = O2 sensor is sending back a standard signal and the computer thinks its = using gasoline and tries to maintain 14.7 and it should be 15.5, maybe that's part of the problem. And that is a guess also. Joe Boucher 70 RS/SS Camaro 81 TBI Suburban Bedford, TX - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC8591.CBBC5200 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+Ih0AAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AGQBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAGMAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1AFNNVFAAZGl5X2VmaUBj b3Vsb21iLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAACMA AABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1AAADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgAB MAEAAAAlAAAAJ2RpeV9lZmlAY291bG9tYi5lbmcub2hpby1zdGF0ZS5lZHUnAAAAAAIBCzABAAAA KAAAAFNNVFA6RElZX0VGSUBDT1VMT01CLkVORy5PSElPLVNUQVRFLkVEVQADAAA5AAAAAAsAQDoB AAAAAgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAA9xNAQiABwAYAAAASVBNLk1pY3Jvc29mdCBNYWlsLk5vdGUAMQgB BIABABAAAABSRTogUGxlYXNlIHBvc3QAMQUBBYADAA4AAADNBwYAHgAUAAsAGAABADABASCAAwAO AAAAzQcGAB4AFAAHACEAAQA1AQEJgAEAIQAAADY5QjQ0QjQxODFGMUQwMTFBMzEzNDQ0NTUzNTQw MDAwALAGAQOQBgBIBQAAEgAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMANgAAAAAAQAA5AABI qE+zhbwBHgBwAAEAAAAQAAAAUkU6IFBsZWFzZSBwb3N0AAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG8hbNPhkFLtGrx gRHQoxNERVNUAAAAAB4AHgwBAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAfDAEAAAAUAAAAYm91Z2h0b25AYmln bmV0Lm5ldAADAAYQri2E1gMABxD6AgAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAAVEhFTzJTRU5TT1JTSE9VTERCRUZJ TkVXSEVUSEVSWU9VQVJFVVNJTkdJVEZPUkdBU09MSU5FT1JMUEcoQVNTVU1JTkdOT0xFQURJTkxQ RyksU0lOQ0VUSEVTRU5TT1JSRUFEUwAAAAACAQkQAQAAANUDAADRAwAAfgYAAExaRnVPcEtz/wAK AQ8CFQKoBesCgwBQAvIJAgBjaArAc2V0MjcGAAbDAoMyA8UCAHByQnER4nN0ZW0CgzN3AuQHEwKA fQqACM8J2TvxFg8yNTUCgAqBDbELYOBuZzEwMxRQCwoUUQUL8mMAQCBUaGUgnk8R4BGwAIAFsXNo CGDQbGQgYhsQZguAGxBadxsAdBsABcB5CGAgmwrAGxB1AJAZECBpBUDTAhAFwGdhG5BsHIIFsSBM UEcgKB6gc3UCbR3ibm8gbGVhZxwgC4AfQiksG1ALgGM/GxAc8RtWFhAggAQgZXgfEYAdwAVAHpEf EHh5Zx0J8CAFoAIwCfB0LiD/GuMjfCCiIaIithFxGRAHkYhkcmEAwHRpYwdAbGx5HXEIYG4cIBPA b7kngGhpA3ARwAUQYycQ/wpQJdUhcAQRI3UpUAUQHfHzIGEDoG9wBJAnYQIgJFOPBAAcsAMQAyBv Y2MIcL8dcAVAIaITUCtyKF5wKIC/JYEWEB6QCyAgYCoSZhxgWQpQbC4KhQqFSgdwINJCCGBnaChw bgqFBuDhMdRAYmlnHJAkQDNhRzCcCvQe0DE4MALRafAtMTQ0DfAM0DWzC1lcMTYKoANgE9BjBUAt XzfXCoc2iwwwN1ZGA2E67zjeN1YMgjFgbxsQMbERcAEEkFtTTVRQOmq7MqE9AkATwArAE9B4M4P+ XTh/OY0GYAIwOr87ywYQonQIcGRheSEgSiggCRsQMjghIDE5OTegIDg6NTAUsE0/Dxk5jVRvQU87 y2RpeXJfDcBpQAWgHAADcGKiLgnwZy5vKLEtPjEfE9BKAClQRR9AHnViaqc3kUc/O8tSRU2gUCBh nxGwLvETwDPfNOMzNjZXlxpFN1YKhUgEkGUnBCC/AHA3cB0CHPAxwyRRSTAgOxzwLFFzE7McsCNB YSCBEYBjayBqb2IhIE9JEBwgHPEn0HB1JZNhdwqFGzgggGEFMASQJFFQLy2xAHAhwShwYyjHKFM4 UD8pHhBUMSgEMTX+LlyAVVUbEgqFG2VVwgnw+0kQHfFiVtJWoD4xKDALEb8hMTNQB0BUQVeDI9Ft V/H7VKMLgGsEIB4gBCAdwwqF3x6XYHMIgQQgKHAgAMAvIfMLcURANC5EgGByHiEb2PdcciEgAMB5 HEEc8CdgVCD/CoUKsQVAMBEtZQJgE+Awjf5BYIMtMVvSHoAKUAQRB0AvG5AwjjyoCoU3RNBSU/Qv UwXwQydBA2AkYESQeRrRQklNIghwXwAyJkLLCYAeUWQhIFRYMJxQ7xdR/1MMFTEAdNAAAAADABAQ AAAAAAMAERAAAAAAQAAHMODz9sWyhbwBQAAIMODz9sWyhbwBHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAABy fw== - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC8591.CBBC5200-- ------------------------------ From: James Boughton Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 20:06:34 -0400 Subject: RE: Big overlap cams and EFI - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC8591.215C9900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Joe, The MAP sensors I've used are actually very responsive (high frequency = response). I'm not sure about GM's, though. So for utilizing the MAP = sensor signal for the ECM there is usually some sort of filtering = routine. For example, I am familiar with one ECM that reads the signal = on two edges of the crank sensor and averages them. This average is the = reading that is used for the fueling and spark control. It may be that = the higher pulsations in the intake system with the larger cam are more = than the averaging routine can handle. On the other hand, it may be possible that the pulsations due to the = larger cam cause the ECM to trigger acceleration enrichments, which I'm = not sure anybody other than GM knows how to calibrate for their = controller. Maybe someone could fill in this information for me. There are also any number of diagnostic routines that may be effected = by the change in idle MAP. Did the PROM burner guy give you any more of = a hint as to what the problem is that arises from longer cams? Jim Boughton boughton@xxx.net Owner - Boughton Engine Systems Technology (B.E.S.T.) - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC8591.215C9900 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IisAAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AGQBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAGMAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1AFNNVFAAZGl5X2VmaUBj b3Vsb21iLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAACMA AABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1AAADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgAB MAEAAAAlAAAAJ2RpeV9lZmlAY291bG9tYi5lbmcub2hpby1zdGF0ZS5lZHUnAAAAAAIBCzABAAAA KAAAAFNNVFA6RElZX0VGSUBDT1VMT01CLkVORy5PSElPLVNUQVRFLkVEVQADAAA5AAAAAAsAQDoB AAAAAgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAA9xNAQiABwAYAAAASVBNLk1pY3Jvc29mdCBNYWlsLk5vdGUAMQgB BIABAB0AAABSRTogQmlnIG92ZXJsYXAgY2FtcyBhbmQgRUZJACcJAQWAAwAOAAAAzQcGAB4AFAAG ACIAAQA1AQEggAMADgAAAM0HBgAeABMAOAA7AAEAfwEBCYABACEAAAA2NUI0NEI0MTgxRjFEMDEx QTMxMzQ0NDU1MzU0MDAwMACsBgEDkAYAWAUAABIAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAAD ADYAAAAAAEAAOQAgbNWisoW8AR4AcAABAAAAHQAAAFJFOiBCaWcgb3ZlcmxhcCBjYW1zIGFuZCBF RkkAAAAAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAbyFsqKbQUu0ZvGBEdCjE0RFU1QAAAAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01U UAAAAAAeAB8MAQAAABQAAABib3VnaHRvbkBiaWduZXQubmV0AAMABhB5HYulAwAHEHYDAAAeAAgQ AQAAAGUAAABKT0UsVEhFTUFQU0VOU09SU0lWRVVTRURBUkVBQ1RVQUxMWVZFUllSRVNQT05TSVZF KEhJR0hGUkVRVUVOQ1lSRVNQT05TRSlJTU5PVFNVUkVBQk9VVEdNUyxUSE9VR0hTT0ZPAAAAAAIB CRABAAAA1gMAANIDAADdBQAATFpGdcxXdj//AAoBDwIVAqgF6wKDAFAC8gkCAGNoCsBzZXQyNwYA BsMCgzIDxQIAcHJCcRHic3RlbQKDM3cC5AcTAoB9CoAIzwnZO/EWDzI1NQKACoENsQtg4G5nMTAz FFALChRRBQvyYwBAIEpvZSxDCoYBkSBUaGUF0EE8UCARsACABbAEIEknynYcEHURsGQgCsAcEIkA 0HR1B0BseSAdEOZyHkAWEHNwAiAAkB0RQChoaWdoIANQZRJxClBuYx6XZSkuQiAc4W0gbm8FQHMX CHAdsQbgdQVAR00n4HMsIHRoCGAfkCDxPFNvH7AFsSIgAxBper0LgGcioRwaHGAfgG4HQOMjYyRS RUNNJEIdoQQAPx0xHgQcoAeAJ3EAICBv/mYfsAMQE9AFECQhA2AjsRRuZSDxRgWxZXhhvm0LUBsQ HOAdgCFAZinwfyPRCsED8CKwKBApQCYlYfMFQBYQYWQEICRSJUUCIO0ioHcjUAmAZweRKCEkUnsF AABwayTGAHAdcR5hYfsuAiRRbSDxG/Am0S/FJsJ/JFIsYiQULDEm0x1hJbZm/wpQI+AkIS+CHtAK wC7wBaB7AjADYGwg8gVAAMAeQGIfHBAsEyRSH3IEkCBwdfRscywwaR7xJsAtgRwB+wuAAZBrJ7ET sys0JFILYPZyLgAFwGMqgR2SBGAdoX8sETf0L8QouTohA6A7EWT1KiAuGzpPN/QhcDbyPPLfIpAr UDW2HuAEEGkCYDYZ/Tc5ZApQIqAjUDmNOjAdQbcl6EIRBRBnOfIA0GMz8Pcv4TeCKcBuBRARcAeA AjCdIoF3H3ARcCEdbnkG4J5kHkA+lDsDIlAgayFgfncEICLAB+BCATowI+Bi90URM7ElxGk6ETUE RPEg8f5NNdA2ASeCK5IFoDdAMzH/AxADIDfjJtELgCNxAMBFM/8jcgeAPVsb8R2iHaI3UCNQ+0eB IVB1BtA3ASghMjAwAP8hYBPARbAo5iyiLDE1xQ3B9wWQE9AdcGIeQC5zOxExYt0DoGk9IRwiIPFE VTAkQ+hQUk8mUGIIcClABcDcZ3UeQDvgHRF5CGBQo/s6syghYTaxAjAdgCyhI1D/RlBApgNgQEEh QDGTLDEKwD8EAAeRA1I5sAIgOfVzP8sKhQqFSgdwIEIi0kIAzm4KhSIBXeNAYiVREcCmLl9hCoVP d1biLV2nXyYgGRA8chOkBCBUBZBoayFgFaBnHkAoGc8AUGkBXaAuRS5TLlQu+2MPGtApZN1aERPQ HeBc9vMK9CPgMzZm4WY/Z0kVMQIAasAAAAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAAAAABAAAcwwNdTTLGFvAFAAAgw wNdTTLGFvAEeAD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAAuM - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC8591.215C9900-- ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #221 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. 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