DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, 1 July 1997 Volume 02 : Number 222 In this issue: RE: '89 Firebird ECM PROM Re: Porting a TPI intake RE: Info needed on porting details for a stock Tuned Port Intake manifold Re: porting details for a stock TPI manifold Re: TPI on a 6cyl Re: fuel rail needed Jaguars Re: fuel rail needed GM plugs, extrude hone and port matching See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James Boughton Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 20:49:15 -0400 Subject: RE: '89 Firebird ECM PROM - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC8597.15862500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark, Your MAP sensor must be located so it reads the pressure that the = intake valves are seeing, since this is the main determiner of the = volume of air ingested. Jim Boughton boughton@xxx.net - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC8597.15862500 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhUAAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AGQBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAGMAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1AFNNVFAAZGl5X2VmaUBj b3Vsb21iLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAACMA AABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1AAADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgAB MAEAAAAlAAAAJ2RpeV9lZmlAY291bG9tYi5lbmcub2hpby1zdGF0ZS5lZHUnAAAAAAIBCzABAAAA KAAAAFNNVFA6RElZX0VGSUBDT1VMT01CLkVORy5PSElPLVNUQVRFLkVEVQADAAA5AAAAAAsAQDoB AAAAAgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAA9xNAQiABwAYAAAASVBNLk1pY3Jvc29mdCBNYWlsLk5vdGUAMQgB BIABABoAAABSRTogJzg5IEZpcmViaXJkIEVDTSBQUk9NACMHAQWAAwAOAAAAzQcGAB4AFAAxAA8A AQBNAQEggAMADgAAAM0HBgAeABQALwABAAEAPQEBCYABACEAAAA2REI0NEI0MTgxRjFEMDExQTMx MzQ0NDU1MzU0MDAwMAC7BgEDkAYA0AIAABIAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADADYA AAAAAEAAOQBAiVCZuIW8AR4AcAABAAAAGgAAAFJFOiAnODkgRmlyZWJpcmQgRUNNIFBST00AAAAC AXEAAQAAABsAAAABvIV1ozKPnaYE8SIR0LN4REVTVAAAABCpxbEAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAA AAAeAB8MAQAAABQAAABib3VnaHRvbkBiaWduZXQubmV0AAMABhCFMapbAwAHEKEAAAAeAAgQAQAA AGUAAABNQVJLLFlPVVJNQVBTRU5TT1JNVVNUQkVMT0NBVEVEU09JVFJFQURTVEhFUFJFU1NVUkVU SEFUVEhFSU5UQUtFVkFMVkVTQVJFU0VFSU5HLFNJTkNFVEhJU0lTVEhFTUFJTkRFAAAAAAIBCRAB AAAATgEAAEoBAAD2AQAATFpGdY34y/n/AAoBDwIVAqgF6wKDAFAC8gkCAGNoCsBzZXQyNwYABsMC gzIDxQIAcHJCcRHic3RlbQKDM7cC5AcTAoM0A8YUxX0KgIsIzwnZOxc/MjU1AoAHCoENsQtgbmcx MDPvFFALChRRC/JjAEAF0ArAzGssCoYBkSBZCGEF0DhBUCARsACABbFtdSETwCBiZSAW0GNhxRPQ ZB2wbyBpBUAXQORhZAQgdGgekBNQB5D+cwhwHpAf8B7gH+MLgAGQ6msekHYHQHYHkQrAHpBlEbBl C4BnLB2wC4BjvyCiBAAfUB/UAMALgCANsBkT0HJtC4AEkCBvZvUf43YG8HUHgCUCC3AFwLcioQeQ HvEuCoUKhUoHcMQgQghgZ2h0AiAKhUMG4Cg0QGJpZyTQdK4uKcEa/RNQbxPQYwVACwqFFmEALFAA AAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAAAAABAAAcwAEtWSbiFvAFAAAgwAEtWSbiFvAEeAD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTog AAAAAMa4 - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC8597.15862500-- ------------------------------ From: Daniel Burk Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:28:54 -0700 Subject: Re: Porting a TPI intake David Doddek wrote: > >Probably would of been easier to have it Extrude Honed. Since the >intake is >hard to get inside of it is hard to port and polish. >David Doddek pantera@xxx.com/~pantera >217-422-3722 >69 EFI Fairlane, 89 T-bird SC, 74 Twin turbo NOS EFI Pantera #6825 Dave, I looked into extrude hone for the intake, but they wanted a couple of hundred dollars (like, three hundred? I threw away the brochure.) For a measly $195 more, I could get a new "Big Mouth" intake custom ported by TPIS, with proven dyno numbers. The technician from Extrude Hone scared me over the phone when he said that a stock L98 5.7L engine gained 60 HP from the Extrude Honed intake and plenum alone. Everyone else has said that the stock intake and runners are good for maybe 20HP with professional porting. 60HP sounded too much like a "wild claim" so I didn't want to trust them with the six hundred amd fifty bucks that they want to do an entire TPI. Tom: Thats an interesting point you brought up about gasket matching the intake. I'm going to have to wonder about the port match-up now, because it's already a done-deal. Maybe I can use a probe of some sort to examine the interface when it's all bolted up? Anyone have an old optoscope, or a mini-CCD camera that I could fish down the port? Maybe I can open up the cylinder heads to slightly larger than the gasket... Ill figure out what to do when I get there. - ---Cheers, Dan ws6transam@xxx.net ------------------------------ From: James Boughton Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:01:54 -0400 Subject: RE: Info needed on porting details for a stock Tuned Port Intake manifold - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC8598.DAA682C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have seen intake mismatches around 0.020" (the wrong way) that have = not showed any improvement on the dyno when improved. As a matter of = fact I've seen much, much worse. I don't know much about anti-reversion = (other than I don't like it), but a great deal of effort goes into = achieving wave formation in intake and exhaust systems that will assist = flow during the overlap period. Maybe it's a combination of wave = pulsations and flow and the only reason the intake systems I've dealt = with did not see much difference due to port mismatch was due to the = significant amount of wave activity. Anyhow, I only responded because I think (for what it's worth) that you = probably don't need to worry too much about the interface lining up = perfectly. I would get as close as I could and not worry about it too = much more. If you can find a flow bench that would show a difference = between 0.010" mismatch and a near perfect match I would be very = impressed. Jim Boughton boughton@xxx.net - ---------- From: Tom Cloud[SMTP:cloud@xxx.edu] Sent: Monday, June 30, 1997 5:21 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: Info needed on porting details for a stock Tuned Port = Intake manifold >> >I have one small piece of advice, Gasket matching head is OK, but >> gasket >> >matching the intake manifold is risky. >> >> >If you gasket match the head AND the intake manifold, there is no >> >guarantee that they will match up perfectly when bolted together. >> There >> >will always be some play when mounting the manifold (and the gasket) >> on >> >the head, and if there is even the smallest area where the incoming >> air >> >hits an even slightly protruding edge of the manifold gasket or = head, >> >> >then all your porting work will be undone. > >> How about dowelling the manifold and head and then doing the flow >> work? >> You are then guaranteed alignment unless you screw up the dowels how can you dowel something that mates on an angle ?? If the head is shaved or the gasket a little thicker or thinner (either the head or the intake gasket) it's not going to meet in the same place -- seems t'me you'd have to shave the intake flange to assure a fit if tolerances were on the tight side and then put in a compressible gasket to fill any gap if they were on the loose side just my $.02 .... watta I know ? 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If you gasket match the >head AND the intake manifold, there is no guarantee that they will >match up perfectly when bolted together. There I couldn't find any consensus on this when I did the head-work on my '92 Nissan SE-R. But the otherwise high-tolerance engine had smaller intake manifold ports than head ports. I had the intake ground out (a lot) to match the head, and had to enlarge the gasket as well. Also matched the T.B. to manifold, and some other parts of the intake. I test-fitted all the parts off the engine, and made some match marks on the outside so I could align the ports properly. Scribing some marks tangent across the ports helped. On assembly, I used spray on "high tack" gasket sealer to stick the gaskets in place, and out of the flow. It feels stronger all around and runs 14.75 @ 92 ETs, at about 2660 lbs race weight (N.A . 2.0 liter) Still, it's one of the things I have concerns about. I'd like to dyno the car with a stock intake, just to be sure. -Wayne ------------------------------ From: Michael Weber Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:52:19 -0500 Subject: Re: TPI on a 6cyl > >Are you saying that the GN system is the same as other buick 6cyl FI >systems of the same time period with just a different EPROM?I don't know >much about different GM systems and the years and models during which >things changed. I just know a little about TPI systems since there is so >much on the web and in catalogs for those things. I have also seen >numerous sites on Buick turbos, but figured it was a special system for >GN. >Is the MAF different between GNs and non turbo buicks? Do non turbo >buicks have the distributorless ignitions? >I am interested in something REALLY common, so that I can get it from >the local junkyard CHEAP! >Any information or source of information on different GM systems >including models and the years of changes on common cars would be >extremely helpful. >Thanks >Tom > Any Buick/Olds/Pontiac with the VIN 3 ('86 and newer 3.8L) should have the same computer as the GN (Plus 89 Turbo TA) These cars all have distributorless ignition. The non-turbo MAFs are usually more restrictive than the turbo ones (necked down inside) Michael J Weber mweber@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: george lee Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 03:05:40 +0000 Subject: Re: fuel rail needed At 02:17 AM 6/30/97 +0000, you wrote: > >I priced fuel rail (made by MSD) at my local speed shop andd they wanted $50 >for 2 feet. I'm doing a V8 so that's $100 !!!!! Is this is line with what >everybody else has paid? Any body got a cheaper source? > >thanks >jw >try accel its much less about $36 for two feet & you can order through your local auto parts dist. ------------------------------ From: Jennifer Rose Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 20:23:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jaguars Hi Thomas Noticed - no one mentioned Mike Knell out here in calif. He install tpi v-8s into jags, also has a book on tpi swapping. Think his webb page is http:\\www.jtr.com - check it out. BTW i'm not affiliated with him - just like his book. Plan on buy the one for swapping v-8 into s-10s. Vance PS: bought three of the electronic speedo - any one have good source for sending unit? ------------------------------ From: Ed Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:36:46 -0700 Subject: Re: fuel rail needed > I priced fuel rail (made by MSD) at my local speed shop andd they wanted $50 > for 2 feet. I'm doing a V8 so that's $100 !!!!! Is this is line with what > everybody else has paid? Any body got a cheaper source? Isn't the MSD fuel rail tubular, rather than the usual rectangular rail found on most EFI applications? - -Ed ------------------------------ From: Seth Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 22:36:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GM plugs, extrude hone and port matching This isn't really the arena for this, so I will keep it short. We at the VRI had a 3.3l chrysler minivan intake extrude honed. The head was ported. The exhaust was Jet hot coated. On the Superflow 901 dyno we got one less horsepower than stock. For about 600 bucks. Now the restrictions might have been elsewhere, and this is just for that engine on that day, but I would have at least expected one more horsepower. Incidentally, like most motors that go on our dyno, it was about at about 85% of rated HP from the factory. Th engine had about 32,000 miles so it was broken in. As a not for match porting-- I don't use a gasket to port by, as a gasket engineer is probably not an intake port engineer. If you want them to match up, once they are assembled, then you can use machinist's layout fluid, like DYEKEM, paint the parts, assemble them, themn pull them apart to see how bad the mismatch is. Iterattion and patience is the key, with several steps of metal removal, until no part comes out without layout fluid on it. If you haev a motor with circular ports, you can use tubular hollow dowels as alognment tools and pass the air thru them. Supposedly used on some racing ford or Cosworths in the '60s. One last thing, several people suggested NAPA as a place to get GM plugs, thanks for the input. I might be able to get them at a deep discount, with a big purchase. Maybe this is worth a group buy plan like eif_332? Or through efi_332? I will check on the price first. Seth Allen ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #222 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. 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