DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 4 July 1997 Volume 02 : Number 225 In this issue: Natural Gas instead of petrol 68__xx Assembler Progs Re: Natural Gas instead of petrol Re: Natural Gas instead of petrol Re: Natural Gas instead of petrol Re: Natural Gas instead of petrol Re: Natural Gas instead of petrol Re: Natural Gas instead of petrol Re: Natural Gas instead of petrol GM ECMs and harnesses Re: GM ECMs and harnesses IM BACK Re: Speedo Re: GM ECMs and harnesses Magnets Re: A question on EFI theory RE: Natural Gas instead of petrol RE: IM BACK See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mark a Reed" Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:01:08 +0000 Subject: Natural Gas instead of petrol Hi all, Could a EFI system be converted easily to Natural Gas by connecting the fuel rail to a gas bottle with the appropriate pressure regulator? If the regulation pressure was set correctly then the fuel/air mixture could be set to allow the use of existing mixture maps in the EFI system. Is this feasible or a wild dream ? Mark Reed Farnborough UK mareed@xxx.gb ------------------------------ From: Alex Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 19:16:13 +1000 Subject: 68__xx Assembler Progs Some body recently asked about assembler programs for the 6801(?). Try this link... ftp://ftp.ee.ualberta.ca/pub/cookbook/softw/ibm/index.html Regards Alex ------------------------------ From: Alex Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 20:22:05 +1000 Subject: Re: Natural Gas instead of petrol Mark a Reed wrote: > > Hi all, > > Could a EFI system be converted easily to Natural Gas by connecting > the fuel rail to a gas bottle with the appropriate pressure > regulator? > > If the regulation pressure was set correctly then the fuel/air > mixture could be set to allow the use of existing mixture maps in the > EFI system. > > Is this feasible or a wild dream ? > > Mark Reed > Farnborough UK > > mareed@xxx.gb %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Hi Mark Your idea may be hard to put into practice. A wild dream; maybe not because men do fly to the moon and yet they said it was impossible once..... Normally, the gas must go from its cylinder (liquid storage=very cold), to a convertor (liquid gas heated by eng. coolant to become gas as we know it), and then to a mixing ring where it is allowed to evenly disperse into the incomming air supply. If you were to inject the gas as a liquid it will cause freezing problems around your fuel rail and who knows how it will respond once inside the cylinder. It doesn't go 'bang' as well as pump gas when in its gaseous state so it will probably react even worse if injected as a liquid. BUT!!! if you work out a way to do it you will make a cool fortune. Regards Alex. PS An old mate of mine became a diesel mech. He said once that on some trucks they use LPG in a similar manner to the way 'petrol heads' use NO2 in cars. ------------------------------ From: Marek Niemand Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:49:27 +0200 Subject: Re: Natural Gas instead of petrol Hi No way it will work. The ECU is programmed to make injectors deliver just right amount of fuel at right time for every possible load/speed point. In principle lenght and timing of an electical pulse to injectors spill valve controlls this. That in its turn is dependant on hydraulic behavior of the injectors and fuel system. So, besides the mechanical conversions including special tank,valves, pipes and so on, you would have to remapp the entire ECU. It is much easier to convert carburated engine. Regards. Marek At 10:01 1997-07-03 +0000, you wrote: >Hi all, > >Could a EFI system be converted easily to Natural Gas by connecting >the fuel rail to a gas bottle with the appropriate pressure >regulator? > >If the regulation pressure was set correctly then the fuel/air >mixture could be set to allow the use of existing mixture maps in the >EFI system. > >Is this feasible or a wild dream ? > >Mark Reed >Farnborough UK > >mareed@xxx.gb > > ------------------------------ From: Jim Zurlo Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 06:21:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Natural Gas instead of petrol At 12:49 PM 7/3/97 +0200, you wrote: >Hi >No way it will work. >The ECU is programmed to make injectors deliver just right amount of fuel at >right time for every possible load/speed point. >In principle lenght and timing of an electical pulse to injectors spill >valve controlls this. >That in its turn is dependant on hydraulic behavior of the injectors and >fuel system. >So, besides the mechanical conversions including special tank,valves, pipes >and so on, you would have to remapp the entire ECU. >It is much easier to convert carburated engine. >Regards. Marek > There is a product from DAI called the translator that changes the mapping based on whether gasoline or natural gas is being used. I understand it has problems with the transient enrichment, but works OK under steady state conditions. Jim Z. ------------------------------ From: Dan Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 08:00:40 -0400 Subject: Re: Natural Gas instead of petrol How about the common forklift that uses propane. Can the system be adapted for your use? I think the forklifts use the propane in its liquid state. If have wondered if a car having problems passing emissions might be able to run dual purpose propane/natural gas or gasoline. Just switch the fuel when needed. Dan L > Hi all, > > Could a EFI system be converted easily to Natural Gas by connecting > the fuel rail to a gas bottle with the appropriate pressure > regulator? > > If the regulation pressure was set correctly then the fuel/air > mixture could be set to allow the use of existing mixture maps in the > EFI system. > > Is this feasible or a wild dream ? > > Mark Reed > Farnborough UK > > mareed@xxx.gb ------------------------------ From: "Robert Harris" Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 06:40:50 -0700 Subject: Re: Natural Gas instead of petrol LPG (Propane), and CNG (Natural Gas) both boil at ridiculously low temperatures - and are normally used as dry vapors and blended by an additional mixer. Kits are available cheap to convert just about anything - except maybe your vintage Stanley Steamer - to either dual fuel or dedicated gas. The conversions use outputs from the existing EFI and EGO to feedback and optimize both mixture and timing for the carb. Both gas's run extremely clean - but in a dual fuel, most states require you to pass emissions on both fuels. A friendly smog check station may allow you to switch fuels, but the same station might just enter your numbers and stick the sensor up the shop goat's tailpipe. The main problems with conversions is that Propane has more energy per pound than gasoline, but less pounds per gallon, so mileage goes down. Even more so with CNG. Cost on propane has skyrocketed recently so it is generally not as cost effective as CNG which is being heavily promoted by your local gas company. On the good side, both feature high octane - well above the best pump gas - and make excellent hi-performance fuels. Of course there is the matter of the extremely "crude" carburetor ("mixer") that seems to disgust most liquidphiles. Before you run your mouth ("Contempt before Investigation") based on liquid fuels you should know that NO liquid device - not even EFI comes any where close to being as efficient a mixer as a gas carb. Simple physics. If the liquid "boils" at minus ridiculous, then you are always dealing with a dry, 100% homogenous mixture. Cold starting and warm-up enrichment? Not needed - waste of time - complete proper mixture already. Accelerator pump (transit circuit)? Useless. Dry homogenous fuel does not "drop out' or refuse to vaporize under vacuum change" Altitude and temperature compensation. Useless. Mixer meters dry vapor fuel with dry air by pressure thru carb. Roughly right thru all normal temp and altitudes. Manifolds for "good" fuel/air distribution? Anything your EFI can use, so can propane or CNG - not a thang - and no heat EVER is needed to "Vaporize" fuel. Set up of a gas carb is knuckle dragging simple. Set mixture screw and idle speed. done. Kits available from MSD to optimize spark for dual fuel applications. Electronic feedback from the existing EFI is used to "optimize" the mixture so the frigging smog shit still works - primarily the cat's. On non smog motors, can be combined with wide range exhaust sensor and have adjustable mixture. OBTW, propane in a well built engine, runs just fine extremely lean - like 18 or 19 to one. Lean mixtures run cooler than rich mixtures, so it aint no thang. Last, the major problem with injection is the fuel is stored in a liquid form well above its free air boiling point controlled by pressure. Any metering device that lowers the pressure will flash vaporize the fuel. Excess fuel (bypass) must then be pressurized to significantly higher pressure (and temp) before it can re-liquidify and be returned to the storage tank. A lot of work is going on in this area, but IMHO it is simply turd polishing as you accomplish 99.9% of EFI goals with a simple carb and feedback, but then, what the hell - most of us (myself included) like to complicate shitting. If the first ingredient ain't Habanero, then the rest don't matter. Robert Harris - ---------- > From: Dan > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: Natural Gas instead of petrol > Date: Thursday, July 03, 1997 5:00 AM > > How about the common forklift that uses propane. Can the system be > adapted for your use? I think the forklifts use the propane in its > liquid state. If have wondered if a car having problems passing > emissions might be able to run dual purpose propane/natural gas > or gasoline. Just switch the fuel when needed. > > Dan L > > > > Hi all, > > > > Could a EFI system be converted easily to Natural Gas by connecting > > the fuel rail to a gas bottle with the appropriate pressure > > regulator? > > > > If the regulation pressure was set correctly then the fuel/air > > mixture could be set to allow the use of existing mixture maps in the > > EFI system. > > > > Is this feasible or a wild dream ? > > > > Mark Reed > > Farnborough UK > > > > mareed@xxx.gb ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 09:56:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Natural Gas instead of petrol > Could a EFI system be converted easily to Natural Gas by connecting > the fuel rail to a gas bottle with the appropriate pressure > regulator? Its of my opinion that a ::conversion:: would be more effort than its worth, as LPG and Gasoline have different combustion temperatures, different ability to do work, different oxygen requirements. However, here in NYC there are plenty of LPG city transit buses that utilize a fuel injected LPG system. So its not a pipe dream, its a reality. But. Do we as consumers have access to tanks of LPG? Is it cost effective? What about performance? These are very important trade-offs to consider. However it does burn cleaner :) You'd need to research the combustability of LPG and its O2 requirements, and from there, figure out the injectors to be used, the mappings of LPG to O2 for different RPM/speeds, and go from there! Frederic J. Breitwieser Jr. Homebrew Automotive Mailing List http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/4605/index.html Bridgeport, Connecticut USA ------------------------------ From: Seth Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:48:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Natural Gas instead of petrol On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Mark a Reed wrote: > Hi all, > > Could a EFI system be converted easily to Natural Gas by connecting > the fuel rail to a gas bottle with the appropriate pressure > regulator? Strictly speaking, no. But with an appropriate fuel rail, and appropriately sized natural gas injectors, and some dynamic modification of acceleration enrichment, it works very well. We have an injected natural gas Dodge Neon here at the VRI. It passed the ULEV emissions standard, which I don't think any production gasoline engnie car has done yet. Once the correctly sized injectors were sources, the adaptive ecu worked with the CNG quite well. And the rail presure is set at about 150 psig. The CNG is never a liquid in pur tanks, even at 3600 psig. Liquid NG requires lower temperatures, and that means a vacuum flask. We used carbon fiber and polyethylene tanks. I think Literider is the brand. The car runs great with the o2 sensor adjustment that I posted to the group about a month ago, and a circuit to reduce the apparent throttle position input acceleration in order to reduce acceleration enrichment. Without this, it will go too rich on acceleration and will even quit. One other thing, the ignition timing is considerably advanced. If NOX emissions are not a problem, then a higher compression ratio works well. We used 14:1 without a problem, with ignition timing near stock. Without this CR increase, the advance (static) was in excess of 30 degrees, if I remember correctly. > > If the regulation pressure was set correctly then the fuel/air > mixture could be set to allow the use of existing mixture maps in the > EFI system. > > Is this feasible or a wild dream ? > > Mark Reed > Farnborough UK > > mareed@xxx.gb > Good luck, Seth Allen ------------------------------ From: Thomas Wright Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 13:42:55 -0400 Subject: GM ECMs and harnesses Does any body know what the part number is for the ECM on a 1992 to @1995 Chevy V6 4300? Will it physically plug into a V8 TPI harness? I was thinking about the possibility of using a GM CPI system (chevy V6 4300 version of TPI) on my 6cyl car. I noticed that there are many aftermarket V8 TPI harness for sale for not very much money, that are designed for custom (hot rod, off road, etc.) installations (unnecessary crap eliminated) for relatively cheap. It might be worth the money for a good, new harness, without the hassle of untangling a fatigued, baked harness from a wreck. But all the aftermarket harnesses are for V8 TPIs. I would need to modify it to work with a V6 system and computer. Does anybody know if this is possible (I mean easy - anything is possible)? Thanks, Tom Wright ------------------------------ From: Charles Morgan Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 12:00:22 -0700 Subject: Re: GM ECMs and harnesses At 01:42 PM 7/3/97 -0400, you wrote: >Does any body know what the part number is for the ECM on a 1992 to >@1995 Chevy V6 4300? Will it physically plug into a V8 TPI harness? >I was thinking about the possibility of using a GM CPI system (chevy V6 >4300 version of TPI) on my 6cyl car. I noticed that there are many >aftermarket V8 TPI harness for sale for not very much money, that are >designed for custom (hot rod, off road, etc.) installations >(unnecessary crap eliminated) for relatively cheap. It might be worth >the money for a good, new harness, without the hassle of untangling a >fatigued, baked harness from a wreck. But all the aftermarket harnesses >are for V8 TPIs. I would need to modify it to work with a V6 system and >computer. >Does anybody know if this is possible (I mean easy - anything is >possible)? Tom, Fuel Injection Specialties will make a 4.3L CPI wiring harness for you. The 4.3L CPI engine is not true TPI--it uses only a single injector ('92-'95), with pressure operated poppet valves at each cylinder. You didn't say what kind of 6cyl engine you have now, but I'm not sure the CPI manifold would fit anything other than a 4.3L engine. Even then I'm not sure it would fit a carbureted or TBI 4.3L--the CPI block is somewhat different to accomodate a balance shaft. Charlie Morgan ------------------------------ From: Justin Albury Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 07:36:51 +1000 Subject: IM BACK HI TO ALL OUT IN CYBERLAND IVE BEEN OFF LINE FOR A FEW WEEKS NOW DUE TO A MEGA CRASH....AND A BIT OF EXTRA WORK.......NOW THE PROBLEM IS IVE LOST ALL MY OLD EMAIL...YOU KNOW THE FEELING EH! ANYWAY IVE ALSO LOST MY EMAIL ADDRESS FOR A FEW OF YOU GUYS AND IVE GOT SOME STUFF THAT HAS TO BE EMAILED OVER (THE PINOUTS FOR THE AUSTRALIAN CARS THAT RUN THE DELCO 808 P4) MOST OF THE STUFF ON MY HD WAS BACKED UP SO I DIDNT LOOSE TOO MUCH, BUT ONE THING THAT I DID LOOSE WAS MY COPY OF DIACOM .....HAS ANY BODY GOT A COPY THAT THEY CAN SEND ME???? (IVE LOST THE BLOKES ADDRESS WHO WAS KIND ENOUGH TO POST IT LAST TIME ) I FINALY GOTEN A HOLD OF SOME INTERFACE PLANS THAT ARE MENT TO WORK WITH IT BUT NOW I DONT HAVE THE PROG....SO I STILL DONT KNOW IF THE USA VIN'S ARE COMPATABLE WITH OUR AUSTRALIAN CARS....... THANKS TO ALL JUSTIN jalbury@xxx.au ------------------------------ From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 18:32:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Speedo Thanks Vance. BTW, have you thought about securing small magnets to the drive shaft and using a distributer pickup coil? gmd At 08:06 PM 7/2/97 -0700, you wrote: >Hi George > > Speedo is from America Science & Surplus - part number 26134 for >$3.75 each. Phone number is 847-982-0870. They have a $10 min order - had to >order three. Just got mine today - the're electronic\mechanical face, have >odometer, trip. No lit with them, but with just three wire this shouldn't be >hard. Still looking for sending unit to fit transfer case. Will visit >wrecking to see if Peters hint about j-car will work. My tpi unit needs two >pulse per rev. Could fab a divide by two to use newer sending unit. BTW old >speedo is very noisy in pu. > >Vance > > > George M. Dailey gmd@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Thomas Wright Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 19:40:34 -0400 Subject: Re: GM ECMs and harnesses Charles Morgan wrote: > At 01:42 PM 7/3/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Does any body know what the part number is for the ECM on a 1992 to > >@1995 Chevy V6 4300? Will it physically plug into a V8 TPI harness? > >I was thinking about the possibility of using a GM CPI system (chevy > V6 > >4300 version of TPI) on my 6cyl car. I noticed that there are many > >aftermarket V8 TPI harness for sale for not very much money, that are > > >designed for custom (hot rod, off road, etc.) installations > >(unnecessary crap eliminated) for relatively cheap. It might be > worth > >the money for a good, new harness, without the hassle of untangling > a > >fatigued, baked harness from a wreck. But all the aftermarket > harnesses > >are for V8 TPIs. I would need to modify it to work with a V6 system > and > >computer. > >Does anybody know if this is possible (I mean easy - anything is > >possible)? > > Tom, Fuel Injection Specialties will make a 4.3L CPI wiring harness > for you. > The 4.3L CPI engine is not true TPI--it uses only a single injector > ('92-'95), with pressure operated poppet valves at each cylinder. You > > didn't say what kind of 6cyl engine you have now, but I'm not sure the > CPI > manifold would fit anything other than a 4.3L engine. Even then I'm > not > sure it would fit a carbureted or TBI 4.3L--the CPI block is somewhat > different to accomodate a balance shaft. > > Charlie Morgan Yep, I just found that out after going to the public library and checking out the Chilton manuals. It was actually on the Fuel Injection Specialties site that I read "Another system was introduced in 1992 called Central Port Injection ... This system is the equivalent of the TPI for the V6 ..." I guess I misinterpreted them. Tom Wright PS. my engine is a Jaguar straight 6 ------------------------------ From: Jennifer Rose Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 18:18:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Magnets Hi George Have heard of that idea before - just like to keep things as neat as practical. My pu is a 4x4 and i have been known to actually use the 4 x part. Wanted to remove old speedo gear\cable adaptor from transfer case slip in newer(different)sending unit. rewire vss to tpi\cruise and be done. To answer other question about appearence - unit looks like a normal mech speed from front. About 4 x 6 inches, 10-160 mph\20-260 kmh, odometer and tirp odometer - three wire hookup. Vance ------------------------------ From: pantera@xxx.com (David Doddek) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 23:13:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: A question on EFI theory > >Text item: > > > >If one were to design a system from scratch and have complete control over fuel >maps, etc., could a system be made that measured the MAP between the throttle >body and supercharger rather than at the intake manifold? Could the fuel map be >designed to compensate for the increased volumetric efficency of the >supercharger at a given RPM and MAP? > >Putting it another way could I use my Holley 4di throttle body on a Whipple >supercharger on a small block chevy with the MAP and vacuum taken off the >throttle body port rather than the intake manifold? > >Thanks, me. > It is possible, but if it were me, and I was designing a EFI system (and I have) I would place a pressure tap after the blower to connect the map sensor. You can still use the holley throttle body and injectors. But using a reference in this way will make tuning a whole lot easier. David Doddek pantera@xxx.com/~pantera 217-422-3722 69 EFI Fairlane, 89 T-bird SC, 74 Twin turbo NOS EFI Pantera #6825 If you are going to go fast, go real fast. ------------------------------ From: Andrew Rabbitt Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 08:56:17 +0100 Subject: RE: Natural Gas instead of petrol > But. Do we as consumers have access to tanks of LPG? Is it cost > effective? What about performance? These are very important > trade-offs to > consider. However it does burn cleaner :) > This is a myth. It only burns 'cleaner' when you get ti set up right. If you don't it can produce as much CO and HC (and NOx) emissions as anything else. Also, in many countries, LPG is a widely used fuel, therefore conversion kits and fuel are readily available. Andrew Rabbitt ------------------------------ From: Andrew Rabbitt Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:00:20 +0100 Subject: RE: IM BACK seems that the caps-lock got stuck during the crash too! > ---------- > From: Justin Albury[SMTP:jalbury@xxx.au] > Sent: 04 July 1997 07:06 > To: DIY_EFI > Subject: IM BACK > > HI TO ALL OUT IN CYBERLAND > > IVE BEEN OFF LINE FOR A FEW WEEKS NOW DUE TO A MEGA CRASH....AND A BIT > OF EXTRA WORK.......NOW THE PROBLEM IS IVE LOST ALL MY OLD EMAIL...YOU > KNOW THE FEELING EH! ANYWAY IVE ALSO LOST MY EMAIL ADDRESS FOR A FEW > OF > YOU GUYS AND IVE GOT SOME STUFF THAT HAS TO BE EMAILED OVER (THE > PINOUTS > FOR THE AUSTRALIAN CARS THAT RUN THE DELCO 808 P4) > > MOST OF THE STUFF ON MY HD WAS BACKED UP SO I DIDNT LOOSE TOO MUCH, > BUT > ONE THING THAT I DID LOOSE WAS MY COPY OF DIACOM .....HAS ANY BODY GOT > A > COPY THAT THEY CAN SEND ME???? (IVE LOST THE BLOKES ADDRESS WHO WAS > KIND ENOUGH TO POST IT LAST TIME ) I FINALY GOTEN A HOLD OF SOME > INTERFACE PLANS THAT ARE MENT TO WORK WITH IT BUT NOW I DONT HAVE THE > PROG....SO I STILL DONT KNOW IF THE USA VIN'S ARE COMPATABLE WITH OUR > AUSTRALIAN CARS....... > > THANKS TO ALL > > JUSTIN > > jalbury@xxx.au > ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #225 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".