DIY_EFI Digest Sunday, 6 July 1997 Volume 02 : Number 227 In this issue: RE: Electromotiv TEC systems RE: Introduction & O2 Sensor Questions ECU Box info Re:P&E BDM PAL's GM TBI V6>V8 Engine Swap See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 08:00:18 -0400 Subject: RE: Electromotiv TEC systems > > No David, TEC2s themselves aren't crap, the company is. > Could you be more specific? I can... I have never bought any of their products, and after two calls to their pre-sales tech support, I wasn't able to get the answers that I wanted out of them. The guy I spoke to on both occasions was vague, not very responsive, and basically left me with the impression that he was doing ME a favor, even though if I was buying one of their products, I'd be doing THEM a favor. So much for the customer being important :) Frederic Breitwieser Homebrew Automotive Mailing List NEW WEBSITE: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/4605/index.html Email: frederic.breitwieser@xxx.com Bridgeport, Connecticut ------------------------------ From: James Boughton Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 10:42:29 -0400 Subject: RE: Introduction & O2 Sensor Questions - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC8930.2744FF40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Neil, As far as I can tell, the problem with using an oxygen sensor to do = wide range fuel/air work is that they are not accurate in the rich = region. The cheapest system I am familiar with to do wide range = measurement is $1000.00US. The problem is that the partial pressure of = oxygen in the exhaust is dependent on temperature on the rich side of = stoichiometric. For more information, consult John Heywood's book = "Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals", page 302, where you will also = find a voltage output vs. lambda curve. Also, another error is introduced since the oxygen sensor functions = according to the Nernst equation, which gives the voltage output of the = oxygen sensor mainly as a function of partial pressure of oxygen in the = exhaust and of temperature of the sensor. Most oxygen sensors have no = temperature compensation, which creates inaccuracies with typical = production based oxygen sensor measurement systems. Remember automotive = manufacturers use this sensor mainly to determine where stoichiometric = operation is. Let me know if this helps. BTW, after calibrating engines with wide = range sensors to get close, I have also used spark plug color to fine = tune WOT operation on race days. Make sure you consult a spark plug = manufacturer rep. for their suggestions. They can be quite helpful. Jim Boughton boughton@xxx.net - ---------- From: Neil Poersch/MTSCom/MTS[SMTP:Neil_Poersch@xxx.ca] Sent: Friday, July 04, 1997 4:58 AM To: DIY_EFI Subject: Introduction & O2 Sensor Questions This of course meant that I had to revise all the jetting in the carbs to accomodate the increased air flow. I did=20 this using the traditional method of observing spark plug color. This of course takes a lot of time so I thought a better way might be to monitor the output voltage of an oxygen sensor. I am aware of the unit which K&N sells but I thought it was very over-priced for what you get. I purchased a universal replacement O2 sensor (made by or at least=20 packaged and distributed by KEM Automotive Products), machined a=20 fitting and TIG welded it onto the crossover pipe on my exhaust. I find that under normal running conditions I typically read about 0.9 to 1.0 volts from the sensor. From what I read about O2 sensors this should indicate a very rich mixture however the engine seems to run quite well and the plugs show a light tan colour. I believe the sensor does respond to lean mixtures because when I deliberately make the idle mixture overly lean I read 0.3 to 0.4 volts. Also when I am running wide open throttle on the highway and snap the throttle shut I momentarily read 0.1 to 0.2 volts until the carb = responds to the new conditions. After all this rambling I guess my question is has anyone had any experience in using an O2 sensor for monitoring fuel/air ratios? Also does anyone have any info on what the output voltage curve versus=20 fuel/air ratio should be? - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC8930.2744FF40 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IiUOAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AGQBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAGMAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1AFNNVFAAZGl5X2VmaUBj b3Vsb21iLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAACMA AABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1AAADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgAB MAEAAAAlAAAAJ2RpeV9lZmlAY291bG9tYi5lbmcub2hpby1zdGF0ZS5lZHUnAAAAAAIBCzABAAAA KAAAAFNNVFA6RElZX0VGSUBDT1VMT01CLkVORy5PSElPLVNUQVRFLkVEVQADAAA5AAAAAAsAQDoB AAAAAgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAA9xNAQiABwAYAAAASVBNLk1pY3Jvc29mdCBNYWlsLk5vdGUAMQgB BIABACcAAABSRTogSW50cm9kdWN0aW9uICYgTzIgU2Vuc29yIFF1ZXN0aW9ucwBfDQEFgAMADgAA AM0HBwAFAAoAKgAdAAYANwEBIIADAA4AAADNBwcABQAKAA8AGQAGABgBAQmAAQAhAAAAODNGNUU5 QjQxRUY1RDAxMUEzMTM0NDQ1NTM1NDAwMDAA2wYBA5AGANwJAAASAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAA AAsAKQAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAABAADkAgAHSqVGJvAEeAHAAAQAAACcAAABSRTogSW50cm9kdWN0aW9u ICYgTzIgU2Vuc29yIFF1ZXN0aW9ucwAAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAbyJUamFtOn1hPUeEdCjE0RFU1QA AAAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAB8MAQAAABQAAABib3VnaHRvbkBiaWduZXQubmV0AAMA BhDcUq+iAwAHEDUJAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABORUlMLEFTRkFSQVNJQ0FOVEVMTCxUSEVQUk9CTEVN V0lUSFVTSU5HQU5PWFlHRU5TRU5TT1JUT0RPV0lERVJBTkdFRlVFTC9BSVJXT1JLSVNUSEFUVEhF WUFSRU5PVEFDQ1VSAAAAAAIBCRABAAAAUggAAE4IAADuDgAATFpGdW1LfTD/AAoBDwIVAqgF6wKD AFAC8gkCAGNoCsBzZXQyNwYABsMCgzIDxQIAcHJCcRHic3RlbQKDM3cC5AcTAoB9CoAIzwnZO/EW DzI1NQKACoENsQtg4G5nMTAzFFALChRR3QvyYwBAB7EDECwKhgGRKxSwBCBmCsFhBCBJIDZjA5ET 0GwbIBzwaGXaIBNQbwJgE+AgA/AdYDwgdQCQGRAcYAOgb3h0eWcJ8CARsACABbF0OG8gZB/wA/AN sCByyxkBHYBmClBsLwtwBcCydwWwayAEAB1RYQVAjR1heRxgFhAgbm8FQP0A0GMIcCIgHYALgB1T BRAjEXAggGVnaQIgLiCMIFQdcRFwZWFwB5BtBUBzE7MckWEeABwwbf8DEAcwIWEeMh/vB4AccAhw bxPgCfAFQCHRJBkwKZAu+SmQVVMk1R2mIdkdkArAvnQHMR2RB5Aosh7wZh72+SO1ZXgRgB5wKSMN sCWA3m4NsCkRAiAc8W0lgCNhvyyTI8kAkCBhLNETwG8kMdskoAeAdCQhJNFGBbEEYPcisQuAAhBy AMAr8AIgHUATBaAAgHVsBUBKb2jdA6BIInAhgARwJwQgBuDybyGwIkkCMASRLBEIUOcG0C4hJKEg RRkQC4AdgDxGdS7QJmApAQdAcyJHHUAKsCDBMzAyHUB3+x1wIrF5CGAeER0gHGA38JUf8GYLgGQc YCB2BvBnAZAgwQhgdHA7IDqAcz8k0AtgBtA3gBywCHB2Zf4uG0s54R1AAHAi8DjxLdB+cgNgBcAh 0QuAMgAEcHX2YwmAMNFuPzAdUx8MIPDfP5AzcgQgIyEFsGQekidxjx1iB8AEoCWhZXF1M2X/OOAk MiSQPGAh4h2AOp0s0fc/3yhwC3FsIoFBcUDnLML/K88s3y3mAHA6UEWiL3pFtPMfdCTRTW8loR8L BCARgP88YCLRL1sFoC+BAIBDSwUA7yVgE9A+oiMkYwiQBCAnJLx5cCQwSMM/AjaTYhxw/z9BRh0o mSXUO5EH8CjhBtB/PgEuECdwBGBIoE6hA4F1/xwwQSAowU5RHnA/siHRRoz/J3IRwASQJrA3ITjk MWwe8G8vkzaiBAA8i0wRwChxID5rIuAH4AaQWMQdcGxw8VYyQlRXPZEBgD4BUuH8aWJcUh6hCfA3 AlI1IEnvTgYncR8wBUBjFaARsB1A/xygToM501iRP1EKsSGwC1D+dR6wFYMnYjohP7E3YB2A+FdP VFwZLzFR4R2AN4DzE7BNEmFrTJFJQjlCM9bvOnBk2Ve6JGFwJNAzIR1S+yFRKLBnHzA2g1YyJQEi gPscwlbAIEMgHjAdgF7yIPB2bDyGCoVKB3BfYAhgZzpoJ3BuCoUG4HA0QGLkaWc3IHQuccFu/Ar0 GSbQMTgpkAIAaS0xPDQ0DfAM0HQTC1kxNs8KoANgE9BBICAtdjcKh9d06wwwdbZGA2E6dz51tmMb sxryIFBvWFERcC+YTVRTNjF7sltTe8AUUDoa8l97RUBtdOs7kAbQLhzAXXbfd+0GYH8CMHkfeit4 0CBQaCAdQEoTNBAigDA0HUAxOTlANyA0OjU4FLBNM34/d+1Ub4B/eitESWBZX0VGSYQvf051fGJq dfGGT3orNaFTOCbsIE8R4R+EUQpQbMQKi/90bBpJcq9zv5A9hadY4kmB/wWgCHBYoSiBKREiA2PC OlBbJ3EWEHYEAGQSbJFtM/42k391xR1iisACQB6SI7X5HMByYmLDQZIEYSNyHWL/P4FREVPyIUIY 4F5AJNEcoP8gACBQb1ZY0x50HWIyAJbA7x4wJKFIwTHhaARwSXObsP8EkJdAHqFk3iTTBAAKhZVI /wGQaKBHchWgRYQHcR9gH/D/HKChAXAyJOA6cFbAAkA+Af53aCAocHGgpoFt4SdwCoX/BGADACdw a/M7BzqmSZAe3vueIyZhYadQTBcKhTdgHjDxQ6VLJk4fYR0gNSE7Ua+mGK1iHHE8YHIigG+v4f4t E1AkMD9Ba9I44CIhOUHfCoVjEW7tHKA7QHIRcZ1j/60yr+FQIAMga4ELYD8wKPPbjdEfdSgAwCBh YrARHFE/BUAd4BxwBUAKhQqwY2v/OFE6UTpBQeATwAUQrpE/QbG2gUtFTRSwVxhQUzT8cykdQADB MbA3IDpSCoXHOiCatEsSVElHHhAdEP8NsDpQrWECIUJEBQBNUB+g76/hHZAFIDADbSKALeWyX/86 IyIDN2E+ASLgM0G0oTdg/wMAHqEz0aBUHIJSpUcxURGvOlFxAXImKbA5J2IxKcD/OoMcEQNhTGt4 0rEkHKDEyP+1eI72WNSmQb2AI6FB4BzA3yOBOnGv8iQjJrB4L9OhEP+9YL7yLaM29BGwVhGW4zdg /wqFbhS9YTmxwYMdgWVByqP/B+ClAaejAZADoBWCCHDAX39WwCbQzTFMaSABB5FJAXD/w2EnYrcR v5HMlDUhBZAuEf9aswOgiIYNsGBBL6IdEKdx+2iSnMNkHeDMd7AyRzHVo9vIlSmwMydiKbA0xnQ8 hv89Utb1JlLC1iBDXCEjwnXBfnTZUTAlMbBwQKdSSxJz/TXwcKyZ3sfKwK6jBGA3o/8FEMSWKbAa 0NtzEeDGhDdg/0igAyCbRtTmYsKexyLBB9H7w1hu7UFf05eRWMQgkAbQ9ybQHqEcoGeOgQQgv7FD IP9stCHCs6GqgTlANyGWsuvh/wqFLeAvkQiQP5IjsR53tYifa9KotR6SIPdcU3M/JOD/PVLXZtSy 6+dkAuvwMvMvIv+xM6k/JSE8Qq/SKLAEILv29/BLyrZWwD9yP5hvlBwKhQUVMQD70AAAAwAQEAAA AAADABEQAAAAAEAABzCAuCziTYm8AUAACDCAuCziTYm8AR4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAjnA= - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC8930.2744FF40-- ------------------------------ From: Bruce Bowling Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 19:09:19 EDT Subject: ECU Box info I am looking for the ECU pinout for an 86 Nissan Sentra XE ECU (I think it is a LE-Jet). Looking in the shop manuals at the local library was of no use. Thanks for any help- Bruce - -- - ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist Thomas Jefferson National Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23606 (804) 249-7240 bowling@xxx.gov/~bowling - ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "David C. Carlson" Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 20:10:22 -0500 Subject: Re:P&E BDM PAL's P&E sells BDM pal's for $25 each or $15 if you buy 10. I think they also have the schematic as a free down-load. You must pay for the software for each unit, it costs about $50. The P&E website is at . Do not take my word, it has been a while please check with them. I have used their stuff for the HC16 and have had good luck. The Nohau at $1500 is better, but too expensive for DIY. P$E also has support and knows what it takes to get the lpt: to work under Win95 with fast computers. I do not work for P&E. I also do not want to spoil the DIY spirit. I think you however have more fun working with the FI stuff than BDM problems. ------------------------------ From: John C Zarli Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 23:07:14 -0400 Subject: GM TBI V6>V8 Engine Swap I'm embarking on an engine swap for a V6 Astrovan that currently uses a 1227727 ECM. I have confirmed that this same ECM is the same as used on 90-91 TBI V8's. Will I need to replace both the CalPak AND the PROM? What is stored on the Cal-PAk what is in the PROM? What happens if I don't change either? Can I at least start the V8 engine with the V6 chips? I'm staying close to a stock TBI except that I will be using a mild Hyd Roller Cam (210/214dur). Will I need a "custom" chip, or would a "stock" chip be able to learn that much of a change? I also have the large 2" TBI unit from a Big Block TBI available to play with....might this be a useful addition? Is any of the info or SW for programming these systems "public domain" or at least real cheap? Failing that, a recommendation (or a volunteer) to furnish whatever it is that I will need would be greatly appreciated. Sorry for all the questions, but I figure if anyone out there can answer one, they can probably answer the rest (vbg) ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #227 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".