DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, 8 July 1997 Volume 02 : Number 229 In this issue: Re: Electromotiv TEC systems Re: Electromotiv TEC systems Re: Natural Gas instead of petrol GN Compatibility RE: Introduction & O2 Sensor Questions Fuel pump RE: Introduction & O2 Sensor Questions Re: Fuel pump Re: Fuel pump See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LotusM50@xxx.com Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 07:37:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Electromotiv TEC systems In a message dated 97-07-07 01:06:35 EDT, pantera@xxx.com (David Doddek) writes: << It is really odd, but any time I have called Electromotive I have talked to people who knew what they were talking about. They do act a little snooty at times but you have to just understand how to deal with that type of person. Comes from being an engineer in a Union plant. I learn a lot of finess there. >> This has been my experience as well. I also went out to visit them to pick up the TEC-II I purchased from them. They were extrememtly helpful and took alot of time with me figuring out what I needed, and sorting out a swet up. Got the full tour and spent a few hours at the place. Even got into a good discussion with the founder on automotive/energy/environmental economics and politics. - -Bonn ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 08:56:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Electromotiv TEC systems > people who knew what they were talking about. They do act a little snooty > at times but you have to just understand how to deal with that type of Hey Dave. We probably are saying the same thing... just that I appear to be more annoyed by it :) Fred ------------------------------ From: Brian Knowles Date: Mon, 7 Jul 97 09:51:28 -0700 Subject: Re: Natural Gas instead of petrol On the 3rd of July, Mark Reed asked the list: >Hi all, > >Could a EFI system be converted easily to Natural Gas by connecting >the fuel rail to a gas bottle with the appropriate pressure >regulator? > >If the regulation pressure was set correctly then the fuel/air >mixture could be set to allow the use of existing mixture maps in the >EFI system. > >Is this feasible or a wild dream ? > >Mark Reed >Farnborough UK > How short our collective memories. Wasn't it , umm, last week that we had a post from a fellow in Houston who had done exactly that? He used CNG, regulated it down to about 100psi rail pressure, and two sets of Ford MS injectors per cyl, claimed 625 hp from a 302 Mustang, which he still has, and invited people to come and inspect. That was this list wasn't it? Or was it the Ford list....? possibly befuddled, Brian ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 14:40:20 -0400 Subject: GN Compatibility Greetings, I'm hoping this is not :too: far off topic, if so, my advance apologies to the list. I'm building up a FWD Buick 3.8L engine (1986), hoping I can use GN internals, such as the crank, pistons, rods, heads etc, hopefully to achieve the legendary GN performance (or close to it). I have found out that the wiring harness, ECM, and electrical components are the same, obviously with a different PROM in the ECM. Any advice or information would be appreciated. By verifying this level of compatibility, my 160HP FWD block has access to many, many quality aftermarket products. Two GM dealers weren't able to give me any clear information or direction. Thanks in advance, feel free to write directly :) Frederic Breitwieser Homebrew Automotive Mailing List http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/4605/index.html - --- ------------------------------ From: Neil Poersch/MTSCom/MTS Date: 7 Jul 97 16:13:58 Subject: RE: Introduction & O2 Sensor Questions boughton @xxx.net (James Boughton) 05/07/97 10:42 AM Jim, Thanks for the info. > As far as I can tell, the problem with using an oxygen sensor to do wide range fuel/air >work is that they are not accurate in the rich region. The cheapest system I am familiar with to do >wide range measurement is $1000.00US. The problem is that the partial pressure of oxygen in >the exhaust is dependent on temperature on the rich side of stoichiometric. I suspected this was the case. I wonder if an O2 sensor with an integrated heater would help? >For more information, consult John Heywood's book "Internal Combustion Engine >Fundamentals", page 302, where you will also find a voltage output vs. lambda curve. My local library has a 1988 version but that may be too old to contain a section on O2 sensors. I will check it out. > Also, another error is introduced since the oxygen sensor functions according to the >Nernst equation, Can you recommend a source of info on the Nernst equation? ------------------------------ From: Jennifer Rose Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fuel pump Hi All Had my fuel pump give out on me today. Due to the heat 100+ deg. Going to fab heat shield to try to band aid problem. The setup in the pu is a low press pump, small storage tank, high press pump - high press pump is the one quitting . Anyone have suggestions or ideas? This the third time in 2yrs. Vance ------------------------------ From: James Boughton Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:44:28 -0400 Subject: RE: Introduction & O2 Sensor Questions - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC8B27.56FF7960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Neil wrote: >I wonder if an O2 sensor with an integrated heater would help? I don't think the heater will control to a constant temperature. The = OEMs use the heater to allow them to go closed loop faster on the = Federal Test Procedure (FTP) tests which reduces emissions. Without a = heater the controller must wait for exhaust gases to heat the zirconia = element to its operating temperature which is too far into the test for = them. >My local library has a 1988 version but that may be too old to contain = a=20 >section on O2 sensors. I will check it out. My copy of Heywood is from 1988, also. I think this is the only edition = he wrote. >Can you recommend a source of info on the Nernst equation? Page 301 in Heywood has the Nernst equation as it applies to oxygen = sensors. It may be worth your while to look into the diy_efi book list = which lists several publications regarding oxygen sensors. There is = even an EPA paper listed there that claims the sensor reads H2 and CO = until it is fully heated (I haven't read this yet). John Gwynne: If you have a copy of the aforementioned paper I would = like to read it also. I believe it was you who listed the document? = Yes?:-) Jim Boughton boughton@xxx.net - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC8B27.56FF7960 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IiICAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AGQBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAGMAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1AFNNVFAAZGl5X2VmaUBj b3Vsb21iLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAACMA AABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1AAADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgAB MAEAAAAlAAAAJ2RpeV9lZmlAY291bG9tYi5lbmcub2hpby1zdGF0ZS5lZHUnAAAAAAIBCzABAAAA KAAAAFNNVFA6RElZX0VGSUBDT1VMT01CLkVORy5PSElPLVNUQVRFLkVEVQADAAA5AAAAAAsAQDoB AAAAAgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAA9xNAQiABwAYAAAASVBNLk1pY3Jvc29mdCBNYWlsLk5vdGUAMQgB BIABACcAAABSRTogSW50cm9kdWN0aW9uICYgTzIgU2Vuc29yIFF1ZXN0aW9ucwBfDQEFgAMADgAA AM0HBwAHABYALAAcAAEAQQEBIIADAA4AAADNBwcABwAWACIAJgABAEEBAQmAAQAhAAAANDhFQTA1 RjkxNkY3RDAxMUEzMTM0NDQ1NTM1NDAwMDAAygYBA5AGANwFAAASAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAA AAsAKQAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAABAADkAIMPD2kiLvAEeAHAAAQAAACcAAABSRTogSW50cm9kdWN0aW9u ICYgTzIgU2Vuc29yIFF1ZXN0aW9ucwAAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAbyLSNqA+QXqSfcWEdCjE0RFU1QA AAAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAB8MAQAAABQAAABib3VnaHRvbkBiaWduZXQubmV0AAMA BhAa7SgKAwAHEL4DAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABORUlMV1JPVEU6SVdPTkRFUklGQU5PMlNFTlNPUldJ VEhBTklOVEVHUkFURURIRUFURVJXT1VMREhFTFA/SURPTlRUSElOS1RIRUhFQVRFUldJTExDT05U Uk9MVE9BQ09OU1RBAAAAAAIBCRABAAAAUQQAAE0EAACTBwAATFpGdcqLLrz/AAoBDwIVAqgF6wKD AFAC8gkCAGNoCsBzZXQyNwYABsMCgzIDxQIAcHJCcRHic3RlbQKDM3cC5AcTAoB9CoAIzwnZO/EW DzI1NQKACoENsQtgYG5nMTAzFFALDjFuNgqgA2AT0GMFQAqLbPhpMzYN8AtVFFEL8hq2KwfAAxF3 GsI6CoU+SVceAAIgBIEgBpAgA5FPnxHgEbAAgAWxA/B0aB+iFwuAE9AJwGET0GQgaC5lIWEgYQhg bCGSbHCuPwqFCocce2MAQCAe8LpkAiAnBUAgoAuAayVR/mUhpwMQAyAFoAIwA2ADIPx0bx+gJrIT wABwJUET4A5wBJAhYAhwZS4gIKJUJdFPRU0EIHURsLcluidCJpBvB+AlwW0nMnpnJ1BjFaARsCGQ FaBv8HAgZmETwQXAAiAls25GCYAoYQMgVAeQBUBQDQNgYwmAKKEgKEZU3FApKBETwAQgdyVwEXB6 IBYRdS5gBCAT4AQBafsnoSjRVyCRCGAFQCdwKhZrJdEmxWwfUW0pkAVAd88LcAVAAhAFwGV4EYAz Qj5nLJAHkSdBIbIls3pp/nImwQcwMGAy8AeAJ/InUN8gkAQgLFAoYguAZygaL4X/BAAnMSdQLIAf YQIwJ1AlwvcvMjPDKxIuHF8a2yNPJFemPjsfGtRNeSwhYy2x9RwAYiFQckAgEYAEICdwwDE5ODgg dgSQMLJ8IGIxgSCgNUEAwEAgYv8psTkxBvAhkCdBJsILcSdh/zz/Pg8czhGwGwBCEizxH+fvMPIe 8SaDIbBjJaAzoTFxfi5ErwviGyxFL0ACBaBwxUAgbx+QSGV5HxAEcPc44gNSQXMsKqEgQEkTJWbv OPE48iXRAiBsQCAJgCCQ/0ISJdEeE0p4G887n0qvRd91HOxDA5F5CGAv4QWgbf82cSGQJ3AgQAhw LmBOQguAHwIQLOYHwASgLgFlcXWPN3ECICLPVh9QYWcl4PwzMCTARFFOhkEiWw8s8XNBMTOhYXAL UAiQNNNv/Hh5XnADoEipQscfEAAg/yCwWOEgYSVwMvAnMiwxSfHTObZR8HlfDcBpQkBlIv9TwDNS L6NmwgQgEbBB0S2x/HB1AmAvsFvjBCAWEDSQ/wsgN5JiLykBLqE48WfhRGHxA6BFUEFoQGFwH1Fm wr8hgSXBLqFCkyvAC3BtUTTTIBUWEGFkBCBIEeAAcPkhkENPKYACMAMRM6FPAu8iQFGxIbMhkCge 8BGAa3HXJTFuwlDEeRHAKUp2S+UISm9oA6BHd3lu/m4eUEkhH5BY4nGCJ2NOJP0lwmEz0TZjMMEh gWwkHvL7IkJTwGtkw3IDYUJP9kMg/2GhdUEzoTOAcoFY8S+QZPETbJck8WN1NnI/IFlhB5A/Oi0p cv0HcCDSQghgZ2gnQG5L5Qbg4X4kQGJpZ3RgSmB/sX9XPzwvgd9Tb4CPS+UVMQABhiAAAAADABAQ AAAAAAMAERAAAAAAQAAHMIA1SHtHi7wBQAAIMIA1SHtHi7wBHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAAD2 yw== - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC8B27.56FF7960-- ------------------------------ From: James Weiler Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:56:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Fuel pump On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Jennifer Rose wrote: > Hi All > > Had my fuel pump give out on me today. Due to the heat 100+ deg. > Going to fab heat shield to try to band aid problem. The setup in the pu is > a low press pump, small storage tank, high press pump - high press pump is > the one quitting . Anyone have suggestions or ideas? This the third time in > 2yrs. Where is the heat coming from? Is the small storage tank ever emptied by the high pres. pump thus causing the high pres. pump to run dry? I would suspect you'd notice this but at WOT you might be having too much fun. :) jw ------------------------------ From: Thomas Wright Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 00:27:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Fuel pump Jennifer Rose wrote: > Hi All > > Had my fuel pump give out on me today. Due to the heat 100+ > deg. > Going to fab heat shield to try to band aid problem. The setup in the > pu is > a low press pump, small storage tank, high press pump - high press > pump is > the one quitting . Anyone have suggestions or ideas? This the third > time in > 2yrs. > > Vance I installed a fuel injection system on my previously cabuerated car about a year ago. I started having some driveability problems a few months ago and finally figured out it was my fuel pumps. I think it is all three of them! The car has two gas tanks with in-tank (low pressure) fuel pumps feeding the main fuel injection (high pressure) pump. (Only one low pressure pump feeds the high pressure pump at a time. Only one tank is in use at a time.) One of the in-tank fuel pumps failed completely, and now, after running off just one tank, the others are going bad (one or both, I think both.) I have always heard that keeping the in-tank, low-pressure pumps to feed the high-pressure fuel injection pump was a good idea, but now I am beginning to wonder. Since fuel in the fuel injection systems circulates, there is a much higher flow-rate than with carburetor systems that must only fuel what the motor needs at the moment. Could it be that the pumps that are designed for carburetors can't keep up, and thus they burn out? Then the lack of decent flow can in turn burn out the fuel injection pump? Maybe the fuel injection pump is fighting even a good low-pressure pump and thus burns out? I have figured out that MY (maybe not yours) low pressure pumps will only pump to their capacity and no more (even if you try to "suck" more out of them.) I figure this because if you unplug the power from them and remove the fuel hose, not a drop will come out, even with a full tank. I think this would definitely put a strain on the high pressure pump if the low pressure pump could not keep up with its capacity. Tom Wright ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #229 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. 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