DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, 9 July 1997 Volume 02 : Number 230 In this issue: RE: Introduction & O2 Sensor Questions Re: Fuel pump Injected CNG Info needed on Lucas single-point efi Re: analog EFI Re: analog EFI Re: analog EFI Re: ECU Box info RE: Introduction & O2 Sensor Questions Hydraulic to Hp Conversion (again) RE: Introduction & O2 Sensor Questions about Bosch L Jectronic RE: Introduction & O2 Sensor Questions Re[2]: A question on EFI theory RE:RE:fuel pump RE: Introduction & O2 Sensor Questions RE: RE:fuel pump RE: O2 sensor output vs temp vs impedance RE: Introduction & O2 Sensor Questions See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cloud@xxx.edu (Tom Cloud) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 07:17:24 -0500 Subject: RE: Introduction & O2 Sensor Questions Jim, you're sending those undecipherable attachments with your e-mail (see bottom) 8^) >Neil wrote: >>I wonder if an O2 sensor with an integrated heater would help? > >I don't think the heater will control to a constant temperature. The OEMs use the heater to allow them to go closed loop faster on the Federal Test Procedure (FTP) tests which reduces emissions. Without a heater the controller must wait for exhaust gases to heat the zirconia element to its operating temperature which is too far into the test for them. you'd need some feedback -- a thermistor or such and then a control circuit for the heater. If the mfgrs would use a PTC thermistor (probably can't make one that'd stand the heat) or use a ferrite's Curie point a-la the Weller soldering iron temperature control elements -- but now we're just wishing. [ snip ] >Jim Boughton >boughton@xxx.net > > >Attachment Converted: C:\UTCONN\EUDORA\ATTACHMENTS\REIntrod > Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (Tom Cloud) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 07:17:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Fuel pump [ snip ] >I have always heard that keeping the in-tank, low-pressure pumps to feed >the high-pressure fuel injection pump was a good idea, but now I am >beginning to wonder. >Since fuel in the fuel injection systems circulates, there is a much >higher flow-rate than with carburetor systems that must only fuel what >the motor needs at the moment. >Could it be that the pumps that are designed for carburetors can't keep >up, and thus they burn out? Then the lack of decent flow can in turn >burn out the fuel injection pump? Maybe the fuel injection pump is >fighting even a good low-pressure pump and thus burns out? >I have figured out that MY (maybe not yours) low pressure pumps will >only pump to their capacity and no more (even if you try to "suck" more >out of them.) I figure this because if you unplug the power from them >and remove the fuel hose, not a drop will come out, even with a full >tank. I think this would definitely put a strain on the high pressure >pump if the low pressure pump could not keep up with its capacity. Tom, the pumps I'm familiar with are "gerotor" types. I.e. they are like oil pumps .... not impeller types, and they seal pretty tightly -- that's how they manage to build up pressure. That's also why you can't suck any (or not very much) through them. I installed the Holley ProJection and had no problems, until I started having problems ;-) My Bronco was stalling after driving for awhile. Holley replaced the pump (I had a fuel pressure gauge on it and it showed low pressure when I stalled). The new pump worked great for a day or so and then it was back to the same ole same ole. Then I installed a Holley Red pump (actually a Holley LOUD pump) before their supplied Carter inline pump. That made it go farther before it stalled. I finally disassembled the whole danged system -- including taking the gas tank and the pickup off. Checked the pickup filter sock. It looked okay, but I replaced it anyway. That was the only thing I hadn't replaced .... it worked great ever after that. [I later put the old sock in gasoline and it appeared that there was something on it that swelled up in the petrol and clogged it slightly.] All that to say that I believe I'd be okay with the single Carter pump -- though the output pressure is definitely more stable with 7 psig input rather atmospheric, and several books I've read about the Holley system suggest putting the Holley red in front. But, I also think you have noted a distinct possibility that when one fails it could cause starvation in the other and subsequent failure of it also. Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: James Thorne Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 08:23:47 -0500 Subject: Injected CNG How short our collective memories. Wasn't it , umm, last week that we had a post from a fellow in Houston who had done exactly that? He used CNG, regulated it down to about 100psi rail pressure, and two sets of Ford MS injectors per cyl, claimed 625 hp from a 302 Mustang, which he still has, and invited people to come and inspect. That was this list wasn't it? Or was it the Ford list....? possibly befuddled, Brian ______________________________________________________ That was me. You are correct the discussion was on this list. I thought it odd that no one else noticed that we had covered this just last week. James Thorne ------------------------------ From: Richard Cartledge Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 15:16:55 +0100 Subject: Info needed on Lucas single-point efi I am looking for any info on the web or books on LUCAS Single-point fuel injection. I can find mech abou the BOSCH L-jet on my '86 BMW, but nothing for my friends '91 River 820SLi 16v. His car is doing 11mpg, so I want to help him sort this out ASAP. Thanks for any info, Richard ------------------------------ From: Chris Morriss Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:00:22 +0100 Subject: Re: analog EFI In message <0ECX7NG8T00FZ7@xxx.nz>, Simon Quested writes >Hi All > >I have a '73 Ford Capri with a 2L 4 cyl engine I also have an analog >EFI system that I am about to put in. It uses a map sensor and a >pickup from the -ve of the coil to control only the fuel. It has 6 >pots that set the on time for the injectors over the rev range. > >I want to put a MSD ignition module in but I think that this will cause the efi >ecm to freak out? > >Am I right in thinking this? > >Thanks > >Simon >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Simon Quested (E-mail questeds@xxx.nz) > Computer Technician, Silicon Graphics & Windows NT Support > Centre for Computing and Biometrics > LINCOLN UNIVERSITY OF NEW ZEALAND > Phone (64)(03) 3252811 Ext. 8087 >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >http://www.lincoln.ac.nz/ccb/techs/simon/default.htm >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >If voting could really change things, it would be illegal. >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ It may not. I'm not sure which of the MSD units do the "multiple spark discharge" thing to the coil. I don't think they all do. If it is a multiple discharge type then it probably will screw up the trigger signal to the efi unit. It may depend on the time constant of the input filter in the unit. Is it not possible to trigger the EFI unit from the MSD ignition trigger? I don't know if this is a Hall effect trigger or the variable reluctance type, but it will give you one pulse per cylinder. It's a pity that the MSD module doesn't put out a trigger-output pulse for the synchronisation of external EFI units. (It might do that of course, perhaps someone else might know) bye, - -- Chris Morriss ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (Tom Cloud) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:07:03 -0500 Subject: Re: analog EFI >In message <0ECX7NG8T00FZ7@xxx.nz>, Simon Quested > writes >>Hi All >> >>I have a '73 Ford Capri with a 2L 4 cyl engine I also have an analog >>EFI system that I am about to put in. It uses a map sensor and a >>pickup from the -ve of the coil to control only the fuel. It has 6 >>pots that set the on time for the injectors over the rev range. >> >>I want to put a MSD ignition module in but I think that this will cause the efi >>ecm to freak out? check out http://www.msdignition.com/ or e-mail msdign@xxx.com/ Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (Tom Cloud) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:17:23 -0500 Subject: Re: analog EFI oops, don't put the "/" on the end of the e-mail address >>I want to put a MSD ignition module in but I think that this will cause the efi >>ecm to freak out? check out http://www.msdignition.com/ or e-mail WRONG msdign@xxx.com/ ++++ WRONG msdign@xxx.com Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 10:38:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: ECU Box info Bruce, I have a book called Mitchell's Electronic Fuel Injection, Troubleshooting Guide, Import Vehicles, which shows the pinouts for many European and Japanese cars. It is published by Fisher Books, 1989. (It is listed on the EFI web page) It shows a "1987-88 Sentra E16i", but it is throttle body FI so probably not what you want. It also lists various Nissan models as being L-Jetronic for model years 1976 through 88. Maybe one of these diagrams will match your car. For example, the 200SX or Stanza (both are listed) might be the same as the Sentra. Check your local bookstore, they might have a copy. Or else I could send you the details of one model if you know which one. Bryan Zublin ------------------------------ From: James Boughton Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 15:03:03 -0400 Subject: RE: Introduction & O2 Sensor Questions - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC8BB0.0BC07B00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry about the attachment, but I have no idea how it got there! I hope = it doesn't show up all the time. Tom Cloud wrote >Jim, you're sending those undecipherable attachments with >your e-mail (see bottom) =20 >you'd need some feedback -- a thermistor or such and then a >control circuit for the heater. If the mfgrs would use a PTC >thermistor (probably can't make one that'd stand the heat) >or use a ferrite's Curie point a-la the Weller soldering iron >temperature control elements -- but now we're just wishing. Actually, I am working on a temperature compensated oxygen sensor for = fuel/air measurement in the rich region. Getting the oxygen sensor with = a built in thermocouple has been the most difficult part. I am curious = why you didn't suggest a thermocouple for temperature measurement? It = seems the best method to me, but I've been wrong many times before:-). 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I didn't realize I would need this so soon and tossed it. Or, if anyone offhand would know the Hp required to drive a belt driven SPICA mechanical fuel injection pump at WOT for a 1800cc engine producing 132 Hp with one injector per cylinder (popping pressure of approx 320 psi). Fuel injection feed pump pressure around 60 psi. TIA, Frank Formeister ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (Tom Cloud) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:35:36 -0500 Subject: RE: Introduction & O2 Sensor Questions yeah, they're on all your posts ... >Sorry about the attachment, but I have no idea how it got there! I hope it doesn't show up all the time. > >Tom Cloud wrote >>Jim, you're sending those undecipherable attachments with >>your e-mail (see bottom) > > > >>you'd need some feedback -- a thermistor or such and then a >>control circuit for the heater. If the mfgrs would use a PTC >>thermistor (probably can't make one that'd stand the heat) >>or use a ferrite's Curie point a-la the Weller soldering iron >>temperature control elements -- but now we're just wishing. > > Actually, I am working on a temperature compensated oxygen sensor for fuel/air measurement in the rich region. Getting the oxygen sensor with a built in thermocouple has been the most difficult part. I am curious why you didn't suggest a thermocouple for temperature measurement? It seems the best method to me, but I've been wrong many times before:-). I thought I did mention a thermocouple, but after reading the above, I see I screwed up several ways. A PTC thermistor or ferro-magnetic controller are both self-contained temperature regulators and wouldn't require any external controller -- unless you wanted more precise control than they afford. The thermocouple obviously requires external signal conditioning and then a controller for the heater. It is my understanding that EGO sensors are more "accurate" (i.e. better defined) at known temperatures, but are they accurate enough to warrant the hassle of either measuring or regulating the temperature ?? Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: collet Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 23:00:47 +0200 Subject: about Bosch L Jectronic Dear, I was suprised and enjoy to see diy_efi, it doesn't exist in France. So I will enjoy if any body can help me about the Bosch L Jectronic system. I would like to know if an electronic schema exist or not. On the board we can see two specific component: firt one is used for transform the primary signal for ignition and the other one I don't no it's like an hybrid, so by what can I change this two component? Thank you ------------------------------ From: Fred Miranda Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 16:16:03 -0500 (CDT) Subject: RE: Introduction & O2 Sensor Questions Have you thought about looking at the resistance of the built in heater element. I put an amp meter on mine once and could see the current drop as the sensor got hotter.(have an egt gauge too) I thought I heard though that the accepted way to measure the temp was via the sensor's output impedance. I've got info somewhere on a O2 interface chip that looks at output impedance to determine when the sensor is warmed up enough to go on line. Fred > Actually, I am working on a temperature compensated oxygen sensor for fuel/air measurement in the rich region. Getting the oxygen sensor with a built in thermocouple has been the most difficult part. I am curious why you didn't suggest a thermocouple for temperature measurement? It seems the best method to me, but I've been wrong many times before:-). > >Jim Boughton >boughton@xxx.net > >Attachment Converted: C:\EUDORA\ATTACHME\REIntro2 > ------------------------------ From: Mark Eidson Date: Tue, 08 Jul 97 16:03:00 PDT Subject: Re[2]: A question on EFI theory Text item: Thanks Jim, The Whipple is a positive displacement type supercharger and you have confirmed my thinking. Thinking about it some more having the MAP sensor between the throttle body and a turbo inlet probably would not work because the turbo's output pressure is not known at a given engine RPM. me ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: RE: A question on EFI theory Author: owner-diy_efi-outgoing@xxx.edu at SMTPGATE Date: 7/4/97 10:18 AM - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC8863.A2FC12E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark, I am not familiar with the Whipple supercharger, but I would guess its = performance characteristics to be the same as any positive displacement = type supercharger (correct me if I am wrong). If you look in John = Heywood's book "Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals" on page 258 you = will find a performance map of a roots blower as well as the equation = relating volumetric efficiency to several other parameters. The figure = in the book indicates that, knowing the mass flow rate (i.e. throttle = position), the rpm, and the upstream pressure for the supercharger, you = have a known output pressure from the supercharger. Thus it should be = no problem to calibrate for the system you mentioned. This is simple = theory, and you may find with some experience that things are not quite = so simple, but if you designed your own system any other problems should = not be hard to overcome. Good Luck, Jim Boughton boughton@xxx.net - ---------- From: Mark Eidson[SMTP:Mark_Eidson@xxx.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 1997 8:52 AM To: DIY_EFI@xxx.edu Subject: A question on EFI theory Text item: =20 If one were to design a system from scratch and have complete control = over fuel=20 maps, etc., could a system be made that measured the MAP between the = throttle=20 body and supercharger rather than at the intake manifold? Could the = fuel map be designed to compensate for the increased volumetric efficency of the=20 supercharger at a given RPM and MAP? =20 Putting it another way could I use my Holley 4di throttle body on a = Whipple=20 supercharger on a small block chevy with the MAP and vacuum taken off = the=20 throttle body port rather than the intake manifold? Thanks, me. Text item: External Message Header The following mail header is for administrative use and may be ignored unless there are problems. ***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***. Reply-To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Precedence: bulk Sender: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=3DUS-ASCII Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Subject: TPI and Jags That Run To: DIY_EFI@xxx.edu X-Sender: jhaag@xxx.edu From: John Haag Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 15:47:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: by odin.cair.du.edu; id AA27138; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 15:47:16 = - -0600 Received: from odin.cair.du.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP = (940816.S GI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id RAA25526; Tue, 1 Jul = 1997 17:47 :20 -0400 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id VAA25531; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:47:24 GMT Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu by thalia.fm.intel.com = (8.8.4/10.0i); Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:45:29 GMT Received: from thalia.fm.intel.com (thalia.fm.intel.com = [132.233.247.11]) by chm ail.ch.intel.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA13048 for = ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 15:40:33 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: owner-diy_efi-outgoing@xxx.edu - ------ 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Reply-To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Precedence: bulk Sender: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu X-Info: http://www.bignet.net/ 1-888-BIG-NET1 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BC8863.A2FC12E0" MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 10:18:33 -0400 Subject: RE: A question on EFI theory To: "'diy_efi@xxx.edu'" From: James Boughton Message-ID: <01BC8863.A2EB4A00@xxx.net> Received: by port211.tnt1.bignet.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BC8863.A2EB4A00@xxx.net>; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 10:18:37 -0 400 Received: from [204.254.121.211] by mail.wwwpassport.net (NTMail 3.02.07) with E SMTP id la188355 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 10:27 :37 -0400 Received: from mail.wwwpassport.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (9408 16.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA01982; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 10:24 :38 -0400 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id OAA01987; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 14:24:44 GMT Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu by thalia.fm.intel.com (8.8.4/10.0i); Fri, 4 Jul 1997 15:43:35 GMT Received: from thalia.fm.intel.com (thalia.fm.intel.com [132.233.247.11]) by chm ail.ch.intel.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA17514 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 08:38:33 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: owner-diy_efi-outgoing@xxx.edu ------------------------------ From: Jennifer Rose Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 18:29:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE:RE:fuel pump Hi All More detail about fuel system. Pu has two tanks, no socks on pickups. A fuel filter on each line to cross over valve. Then to low press pump, which feed small storage tank - 1.5 qts. Thur another fuel filter into high press pump, from there into high press fuel filter. Goes up to fuel rail\press reg back to small tank. The tank also has return to tank via crossover. The heat is coming from exhaust pipe about 12 inch away from frame rail where all this is mounted. Problem occurs in hot temp in slow traffic. Will finish heat shield made out of aluminum tomorrow. Hope this helps. Have considered installing high press pump in both tanks, but most electric cross over valves are only rated at 60 psi. 50 psi at engine is probably 100 psi at pump. Thank for all the help Vance ------------------------------ From: James Boughton Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:21:31 -0400 Subject: RE: Introduction & O2 Sensor Questions - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC8BED.4E23A480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't get the attachment when I receive my posts! I am lost! If you = have any ideas on how to remedy this please help me. I use Microsoft = Exchange for my mail reader. I have had some problems with Internet = Explorer, but none with Exchange. I don't even know where to look for = this problem. As far as Exhaust Gas Oxygen (EGO) sensors go the manufacturers who = supply these for furnace control go to the extra effort of supplying a = thermocouple with their sensors. They also claim very good accuracy, = however, the spec. I have is for 700=B0C to 1700=B0C which is just the = top end for exhaust gases. I guess the answer is that I am not sure, but am willing to try. I = learn something new every day. >It is my understanding that EGO sensors are more "accurate" >(i.e. better defined) at known temperatures, but are they >accurate enough to warrant the hassle of either measuring >or regulating the temperature ?? >Tom Cloud Jim Boughton boughton@xxx.net - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC8BED.4E23A480 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IicCAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AGQBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAGMAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1AFNNVFAAZGl5X2VmaUBj b3Vsb21iLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAACMA AABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1AAADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgAB MAEAAAAlAAAAJ2RpeV9lZmlAY291bG9tYi5lbmcub2hpby1zdGF0ZS5lZHUnAAAAAAIBCzABAAAA KAAAAFNNVFA6RElZX0VGSUBDT1VMT01CLkVORy5PSElPLVNUQVRFLkVEVQADAAA5AAAAAAsAQDoB AAAAAgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAA9xNAQiABwAYAAAASVBNLk1pY3Jvc29mdCBNYWlsLk5vdGUAMQgB BIABACcAAABSRTogSW50cm9kdWN0aW9uICYgTzIgU2Vuc29yIFF1ZXN0aW9ucwBfDQEFgAMADgAA AM0HBwAIABYAFQAfAAIALwEBIIADAA4AAADNBwcACAAWAAsAGAACAB4BAQmAAQAhAAAAQTUzOUZD NzFERUY3RDAxMUEzMTM0NDQ1NTM1NDAwMDAA6QYBA5AGAHgFAAASAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAA AAsAKQAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAABAADkAYJfK0A6MvAEeAHAAAQAAACcAAABSRTogSW50cm9kdWN0aW9u ICYgTzIgU2Vuc29yIFF1ZXN0aW9ucwAAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAbyMDtCYcfw5pvfeEdCjE0RFU1QA AAAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAB8MAQAAABQAAABib3VnaHRvbkBiaWduZXQubmV0AAMA BhD5Jw5FAwAHEA8DAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABJRE9OVEdFVFRIRUFUVEFDSE1FTlRXSEVOSVJFQ0VJ VkVNWVBPU1RTSUFNTE9TVElGWU9VSEFWRUFOWUlERUFTT05IT1dUT1JFTUVEWVRISVNQTEVBU0VI RUxQTUVJVVNFTUlDAAAAAAIBCRABAAAA7gMAAOoDAABEBgAATFpGdUXUfn3/AAoBDwIVAqgF6wKD AFAC8gkCAGNoCsBzZXQyNwYABsMCgzIDxQIAcHJCcRHic3RlbQKDM3cC5AcTAoB9CoAIzwnZO/EW DzI1NQKACoENsQtg4G5nMTAzFFALChRRHQvyYwBAAzABkSBJICpkAiAnBUBnEcAgdLBoZSBhAkAA 0GgHgHkCMCB3HBADoBtAFhBjCGVpdhwgbXkgcCJvE8BzISAbMWFtjiAVoBPAHmJmIHkIYF4gEYAd sQBwHfBpDbBhlwQgAiAfsG8H4HRvHVG9B4BkHfAcAAQAHgBsIHGTHCAcEGxwHdBlLh5ysnUiUU1p BQAeIG8BgPggRXgRcRkQHCACEAXA7x3hAMADERYQYQSBIvMfw/kRgGQgI9AHgB4AA2ACYP8T4AQg A/AcABswAjAEkRvRDyQgC1AFsASQLCBidf0FQG4CIBwgJ5MkJiLzG2T2ZR2wA6BrKVAH4BzxFhBz IRIVoG9rJKMhxCcULusKhhsCQQQgZgrBIIEkIBcRgCNABUBHIIFPeHmDG8ADoChFR08pJqB/CfAj 0BGgG7AhMBwCA4F1+S6gY3QIcASQJ3Eg4CagvHVwC1AhogeQJJRmCHD+bgDQHCAFoAIwA2ADIDEi 6TE0ZXg0cGErEA3QFbFvIKAfYDK0C4BnHDAb8nK/BGAFoDLAIiAnhBwBaQXA+zClIvFUHBAd8AdA I9A0MPcLYR7AHbByHfAxIARwHDDsY2MIcADQeSjwIOErIfMo4RwCc3AFkCLwJgUh4QkksjcwDfAn YjBDfSESMT2XHPAjkCfAIeFq/y9SHAIhICKwCfAmkCSyNWC9LzRnIkE5AC26G0BnClD/BBEcAwCA O6AFwCHhHAAcQP8ehClQBUAysBYQKPQesQPw/GxsNsI08jpgIvMiIQShfyayIcE20SgwB+A7sh3w ZO5hRlAKhUicPhnNJwET0N8x8BswBUAh4R3hdUBgMjH/AZBAYEXDQ+IwUTCXCsAdwdkosSAiOuQT 0CIKi0WwPDM2SsEZ70nvSvUoafouIuFiEcAoARtQDcALgP8JgDCAQ/ErcgOgE9E8YE7B/TIRc0T1 K/I5UQqHUF9Rb29K9U6GQEEIYGc4ISEwd/8KwDWQHMEcAhGABBA3wTYx/x2QNyIiwSCACHEZEFZ/ V4/fSm4FsRYQQpALYHRMlCwB8VToID8/SJxdn16vStdSVANwIEMVoHUmkDw7OeBmMUA8YBxxQYFw aB4uKSA1YCCAUwBkdT5fYr8L4mKoGZ8ao0o6EUI7WkIhIG5ppQbga/RAYvRpZygxLigxTx9QLkrm C2mlFTEAcTAAAAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAAAAABAAAcw4H+0Zg2MvAFAAAgw4H+0Zg2MvAEeAD0AAQAA AAUAAABSRTogAAAAAAqg - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC8BED.4E23A480-- ------------------------------ From: Geoff Watts Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:26:23 -0000 Subject: RE: RE:fuel pump Not vapour lock? - how big/small are your lines? geoff - -----Original Message----- From: Jennifer Rose [SMTP:javer96@xxx.net] Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 1997 1:29 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: RE:RE:fuel pump Hi All More detail about fuel system. Pu has two tanks, no socks on pickups. A fuel filter on each line to cross over valve. Then to low press pump, which feed small storage tank - 1.5 qts. Thur another fuel filter into high press pump, from there into high press fuel filter. Goes up to fuel rail\press reg back to small tank. The tank also has return to tank via crossover. The heat is coming from exhaust pipe about 12 inch away from frame rail where all this is mounted. Problem occurs in hot temp in slow traffic. Will finish heat shield made out of aluminum tomorrow. Hope this helps. Have considered installing high press pump in both tanks, but most electric cross over valves are only rated at 60 psi. 50 psi at engine is probably 100 psi at pump. Thank for all the help Vance ------------------------------ From: Frank F Parker Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:31:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: O2 sensor output vs temp vs impedance On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Fred Miranda wrote: > I thought I heard though that the accepted way to measure the temp was via > the sensor's > output impedance. I've got info somewhere on a O2 interface chip that looks > at output > impedance to determine when the sensor is warmed up enough to go on line. > Fred, Would be interested in that IC chip #. I know that NAtional makes some o2 sensor interface chips. The answer on whether to control sensor temp for accurate a/f measurements is an emphatic YES- you must do that. I have a enginering graph from Bosch for their LSM-11 sensor which is specially made for rich field a/f measurements. It is their Motorsports sensor. It does , however, have about the same output curve as a std production O2 sensor. This graph shows internal resistance of sensor changes as follows: SENSOR INTERNAL RESISTANCE TEMP 10 ohms 900 deg C 35 ohms 750 deg C 120 ohms 650 deg C This results in the following change in a/f for a particular output voltage, say 0.78 volts. VOLT A/F TEMP 0.78 13.23 900 deg C 0.78 14.11 750 deg C 0.78 14.41 650 deg C Thus you can see that there is over a 1 a/f # change if you do not control the temp. Bosch does in their high $ LA-2 meter and so does Bob Bailey in his $1000 O2 meter that uses the LSM-11. I have one of these and have had it checked on a dyno against both a MOTEC a/f meter( $5000) and the measured air and fuel flows. It was very close to the measured values. $1000 is not cheap, but way less than any other ACCURATE meter and mandatory if you are to do any serious tuning with a DFI or major mods of a production efi. Hope this helps. Frank Parker fparker@xxx.edu PS: Very good book on automotive sensors (including O2) is "Automotive Electronics Handbook" by Jurgen, ISBN:0-07-033189-8 fp ------------------------------ From: James Boughton Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:31:35 -0400 Subject: RE: Introduction & O2 Sensor Questions - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC8BEE.B31E0E60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well I see Fred also receives "the attachment" :-) I see it says = something about eudora. I don't use eudora so I am wondering if this is = on your machine? =09 >Have you thought about looking at the resistance of the built in heater = element. >I put an amp meter on mine once and could see the current drop as the = sensor got >hotter.(have an egt gauge too) Yes, I looked at the resistance of the heater, but it was fairly slow to = respond and only changed from 6 ohms to around 12 ohms which I was = concerned about trying to measure since changes in lengths of the leads = could have a large effect on the output. >I thought I heard though that the accepted way to measure the temp was = via >the sensor's >output impedance. I've got info somewhere on a O2 interface chip that = looks >at output >impedance to determine when the sensor is warmed up enough to go on = line. >Fred Yes, I suppose you could check the impedence of the sensor, but the main = point of measuring temperature is to improve accuracy as opposed to = determine the sensors readiness. If you look at the Nernst equation it = is linear with temperature. Also, according to Heywood the exhaust gas = oxygen partial pressure is also a function of temperature (above and = beyond the function that is associated with the sensor output). All I = can say is I hope it works :-) It has to be more accurate than a = standard oxygen sensor. >> Actually, I am working on a temperature compensated oxygen sensor for fuel/air measurement in the rich region. Getting the oxygen sensor with = a built in thermocouple has been the most difficult part. I am curious = why you didn't suggest a thermocouple for temperature measurement? 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