DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, 9 July 1997 Volume 02 : Number 231 In this issue: RE: Introduction & "the attachment" Re: analog EFI RE: O2 sensor output vs temp vs impedance Re: Introduction & O2 Sensor Questions (pas d'objet) Re: Info needed on Lucas single-point efi See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fred Miranda Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:28:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: RE: Introduction & "the attachment" Yeah, I get this stuff all the time. I just ignore it and clear out the directory once and a while ;-) I think some have figured out how to turn it off though.(senders that is) Fred At 10:31 PM 7/8/97 -0400, you wrote: >Well I see Fred also receives "the attachment" :-) I see it says something about eudora. I don't use eudora so I am wondering if this is on your machine? ------------------------------ From: pantera@xxx.com (David Doddek) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:26:24 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: analog EFI The MSD ignitions that are multi spark have a open collector tach output. Just use that to run the EFI unit. >In message <0ECX7NG8T00FZ7@xxx.nz>, Simon Quested > writes >>Hi All >> >>I have a '73 Ford Capri with a 2L 4 cyl engine I also have an analog >>EFI system that I am about to put in. It uses a map sensor and a >>pickup from the -ve of the coil to control only the fuel. It has 6 >>pots that set the on time for the injectors over the rev range. >> >>I want to put a MSD ignition module in but I think that this will cause the efi >>ecm to freak out? >> >>Am I right in thinking this? >> >>Thanks >> >>Simon >>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> Simon Quested (E-mail questeds@xxx.nz) >> Computer Technician, Silicon Graphics & Windows NT Support >> Centre for Computing and Biometrics >> LINCOLN UNIVERSITY OF NEW ZEALAND >> Phone (64)(03) 3252811 Ext. 8087 >>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>http://www.lincoln.ac.nz/ccb/techs/simon/default.htm >>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>If voting could really change things, it would be illegal. >>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >It may not. I'm not sure which of the MSD units do the "multiple spark >discharge" thing to the coil. I don't think they all do. If it is a >multiple discharge type then it probably will screw up the trigger >signal to the efi unit. It may depend on the time constant of the input >filter in the unit. >Is it not possible to trigger the EFI unit from the MSD ignition >trigger? I don't know if this is a Hall effect trigger or the variable >reluctance type, but it will give you one pulse per cylinder. It's a >pity that the MSD module doesn't put out a trigger-output pulse for the >synchronisation of external EFI units. (It might do that of course, >perhaps someone else might know) > >bye, >-- >Chris Morriss > > David Doddek pantera@xxx.com/~pantera 217-422-3722 69 EFI Fairlane, 89 T-bird SC, 74 Twin turbo NOS EFI Pantera #6825 If you are going to go fast, go real fast. ------------------------------ From: Fred Miranda Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:37:52 -0500 (CDT) Subject: RE: O2 sensor output vs temp vs impedance You're right Frank, the info I have is on the National LM9040. They call it a dual lambda interface. Got it from their web site. Also Frank, any way you could put a copy of that graph on the DIY web site so all of us could get a look at it. I have a copy but it's a crappy gif of a fax. Fred At 10:31 PM 7/8/97 -0400, you wrote: >Would be interested in that IC chip #. I know that NAtional makes some >o2 sensor interface chips. > >The answer on whether to control sensor temp for accurate a/f measurements >is an emphatic YES- you must do that. I have a enginering graph from >Bosch for their LSM-11 sensor which is specially made for rich field a/f >measurements. It is their Motorsports sensor. It does , however, have >about the same output curve as a std production O2 sensor. This graph >shows internal resistance of sensor changes as follows: > SENSOR INTERNAL RESISTANCE TEMP > > 10 ohms 900 deg C > 35 ohms 750 deg C > 120 ohms 650 deg C > >This results in the following change in a/f for a particular output >voltage, say 0.78 volts. > > VOLT A/F TEMP > > 0.78 13.23 900 deg C > 0.78 14.11 750 deg C > 0.78 14.41 650 deg C > >Thus you can see that there is over a 1 a/f # change if you do not >control the temp. Bosch does in their high $ LA-2 meter and so does >Bob Bailey in his $1000 O2 meter that uses the LSM-11. I have one of these >and have had it checked on a dyno against both a MOTEC a/f meter( $5000) >and the measured air and fuel flows. It was very close to the measured >values. $1000 is not cheap, but way less than any other ACCURATE meter >and mandatory if you are to do any serious tuning with a DFI or major >mods of a production efi. > >Hope this helps. > >Frank Parker >fparker@xxx.edu > >PS: Very good book on automotive sensors (including O2) is "Automotive >Electronics Handbook" by Jurgen, ISBN:0-07-033189-8 > >fp > > > > ------------------------------ From: Johnny Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 22:54:59 -0700 Subject: Re: Introduction & O2 Sensor Questions James Boughton wrote: > > I don't get the attachment when I receive my posts! I am lost! If you have any ideas on how to remedy this please help me. I use Microsoft Exchange for my mail reader. I have had some problems with Internet Explorer, but none with Exchange. I don't even know where to look for this problem. > A couple things. You don't see the attachments, because as far as Exchange is concerned, it is formatting data. The same formatting data that it sends out so that other people running Billybob software, can see all your colored text and fonts and other stuff like that. The other thing is you don't have wrap turned on, so that your lines just go out forever. Again, you don't see that because Exchange wraps it for you when you receive the message. To fix these things (going from memory here from when I used to run Billybob) you need to go into the options dialog, I think it might be under the View menu, and go to the compose or send part of it, and choose plain text as the message format, along with wrap to, oh 72 characters or so. This should get rid of the attachments, because it is no longer sending any formatting data because it is in plain text. Just so you can see what the attachments look like, I have included the one from this message of your that I am replying to below. As you can see, the actual text that you wrote is a tiny part of it. - -j- 00000000 789f3e22 27020106 90080004 00000000 x.>"'........... 00000010 00010001 00010790 06000800 0000e404 ................ 00000020 00000000 0000e800 010d8004 00020000 ................ 00000030 00020002 00010490 06006401 00000100 ..........d..... 00000040 00000c00 00000300 00300300 00000b00 .........0...... 00000050 0f0e0000 00000201 ff0f0100 00006300 ..............c. 00000060 00000000 0000812b 1fa4bea3 10199d6e .......+.......n 00000070 00dd010f 54020000 00006469 795f6566 ....T.....diy_ef 00000080 6940636f 756c6f6d 622e656e 672e6f68 i@xxx.oh 00000090 696f2d73 74617465 2e656475 00534d54 io-state.edu.SMT 000000a0 50006469 795f6566 6940636f 756c6f6d P.diy_efi@coulom 000000b0 622e656e 672e6f68 696f2d73 74617465 b.eng.ohio-state 000000c0 2e656475 00001e00 02300100 00000500 .edu.....0...... 000000d0 0000534d 54500000 00001e00 03300100 ..SMTP.......0.. 000000e0 00002300 00006469 795f6566 6940636f ..#...diy_efi@co 000000f0 756c6f6d 622e656e 672e6f68 696f2d73 ulomb.eng.ohio-s 00000100 74617465 2e656475 00000300 150c0100 tate.edu........ 00000110 00000300 fe0f0600 00001e00 01300100 .............0.. 00000120 00002500 00002764 69795f65 66694063 ..%...'diy_efi@c 00000130 6f756c6f 6d622e65 6e672e6f 68696f2d oulomb.eng.ohio- 00000140 73746174 652e6564 75270000 00000201 state.edu'...... 00000150 0b300100 00002800 0000534d 54503a44 .0....(...SMTP:D 00000160 49595f45 46494043 4f554c4f 4d422e45 IY_EFI@xxx.E 00000170 4e472e4f 48494f2d 53544154 452e4544 NG.OHIO-STATE.ED 00000180 55000300 00390000 00000b00 403a0100 U....9......@xxx. 00000190 00000201 f60f0100 00000400 00000000 ................ 000001a0 0003dc4d 01088007 00180000 0049504d ...M.........IPM 000001b0 2e4d6963 726f736f 6674204d 61696c2e .Microsoft Mail. 000001c0 4e6f7465 00310801 04800100 27000000 Note.1......'... 000001d0 52453a20 496e7472 6f647563 74696f6e RE: Introduction 000001e0 2026204f 32205365 6e736f72 20517565 & O2 Sensor Que 000001f0 7374696f 6e73005f 0d010580 03000e00 stions._........ 00000200 0000cd07 07000800 16001500 1f000200 ................ 00000210 2f010120 8003000e 000000cd 07070008 /.. ............ 00000220 0016000b 00180002 001e0101 09800100 ................ 00000230 21000000 41353339 46433731 44454637 !...A539FC71DEF7 00000240 44303131 41333133 34343435 35333534 D011A31344455354 00000250 30303030 00e90601 03900600 78050000 0000........x... 00000260 12000000 0b002300 00000000 03002600 ......#.......&. 00000270 00000000 0b002900 00000000 03003600 ......).......6. 00000280 00000000 40003900 6097cad0 0e8cbc01 ....@xxx. 00000290 1e007000 01000000 27000000 52453a20 ..p.....'...RE: 000002a0 496e7472 6f647563 74696f6e 2026204f Introduction & O 000002b0 32205365 6e736f72 20517565 7374696f 2 Sensor Questio 000002c0 6e730000 02017100 01000000 16000000 ns....q......... 000002d0 01bc8c0e d09871fc 39a6f7de 11d0a313 ......q.9....... 000002e0 44455354 00000000 1e001e0c 01000000 DEST............ 000002f0 05000000 534d5450 00000000 1e001f0c ....SMTP........ 00000300 01000000 14000000 626f7567 68746f6e ........boughton 00000310 40626967 6e65742e 6e657400 03000610 @xxx. 00000320 f9270e45 03000710 0f030000 1e000810 .'.E............ 00000330 01000000 65000000 49444f4e 54474554 ....e...IDONTGET 00000340 54484541 54544143 484d454e 54574845 THEATTACHMENTWHE 00000350 4e495245 43454956 454d5950 4f535453 NIRECEIVEMYPOSTS 00000360 49414d4c 4f535449 46594f55 48415645 IAMLOSTIFYOUHAVE 00000370 414e5949 44454153 4f4e484f 57544f52 ANYIDEASONHOWTOR 00000380 454d4544 59544849 53504c45 41534548 EMEDYTHISPLEASEH 00000390 454c504d 45495553 454d4943 00000000 ELPMEIUSEMIC.... 000003a0 02010910 01000000 ee030000 ea030000 ................ 000003b0 44060000 4c5a4675 45d47e7d ff000a01 D...LZFuE.~}.... 000003c0 0f021502 a805eb02 83005002 f2090200 ..........P..... 000003d0 63680ac0 73657432 37060006 c3028332 ch..set27......2 000003e0 03c50200 70724271 11e27374 656d0283 ....prBq..stem.. 000003f0 337702e4 07130280 7d0a8008 cf09d93b 3w......}......; 00000400 f1160f32 35350280 0a810db1 0b60e06e ...255.......`.n 00000410 67313033 14500b0a 14511d0b f2630040 g103.P...Q...c.@ 00000420 03300191 2049202a 64022027 05406711 .0.. 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So my question is about the L-Jectronic Bosch system. I would like to know if it's possible to get an electronique schema, because we can see on the board two specifics components: the firt one is for transform the primary signal come from the ignition and the second I don't know it's like an hybrid component so by what can I change those components? Thank you for your help! ------------------------------ From: Rich Mauruschat Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:15:31 +0100 Subject: Re: Info needed on Lucas single-point efi At 15:16 08/07/97 +0100, you wrote: >I am looking for any info on the web or books on LUCAS Single-point fuel >injection. > >I can find mech abou the BOSCH L-jet on my '86 BMW, but nothing for my >friends '91 River 820SLi 16v. > >His car is doing 11mpg, so I want to help him sort this out ASAP. > >Thanks for any info, Richard > > Is your 11mpg accompanied by obviously rich running? May be worth checking the coolant sensor operation, a common problem with earlier Lucas systems; the sensor fails showing a falsely low temperature measurement and hence over rich fuelling. Also has power been disconnected from the ECU? The SPi system has an 'adaptive' fueling control which adjusts gradually for changes in operating conditions and engine condition etc. When power is disconnected the ECU suffers severe amnesia and forgets all it has learnt in one go and takes time to readjust. This is usually apparent from idle exhaust gas CO readings, which default to approx. 6% until reset electronically via the diagnostic connector (no mechanical adjustment available on SPi). As an aside, is the 820SLi actually single point injection? 'i' suffix models are usually multi-point and 'e' suffix single point but this may not be universal. ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #231 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".