DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, 10 July 1997 Volume 02 : Number 232 In this issue: Re: Info needed on Lucas single-point efi Re: Introduction & O2 Sensor Questions RE: Introduction & O2 Sensor Questions Re: Injected CNG Re: (pas d'objet) RE: Introduction & O2 Sensor Questions Re: analog EFI Re: Hydraulic to Hp Conversion (again) Re: Injected CNG Re: (pas d'objet) HC11 EFI Code Re: Injected CNG conversion question + Re: analog EFI (MSD6A schematic) Re: Injected CNG INFORMATION FOR MICROSOFT EXCHANGE USERS Re: conversion question + Re: conversion question + Re: Injected CNG RE: O2 sensor output vs temp vs impedance RE: O2 sensor output vs temp vs impedance Bosch L-Jectronic Re: (pas d'objet) Coolant temp sensor circuitry, injector lugs Re: EGT rising at wot with boost Re: conversion question + RE: O2 sensor output vs temp vs impedance RE: O2 sensor output vs temp vs impedance RE: O2 sensor output vs temp vs impedance Re: analog EFI (MSD6A schematic) Re: Coolant temp sensor circuitry, injector lugs Re: Coolant temp sensor circuitry, injector lugs See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Cartledge Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 10:39:20 +0100 Subject: Re: Info needed on Lucas single-point efi Rich Mauruschat wrote: > At 15:16 08/07/97 +0100, you wrote: > >I am looking for any info on the web or books on LUCAS Single-point > fuel > >injection. > > > >I can find mech abou the BOSCH L-jet on my '86 BMW, but nothing for > my > >friends '91 River 820SLi 16v. > > > >His car is doing 11mpg, so I want to help him sort this out ASAP. > > > >Thanks for any info, Richard > > > > > > Is your 11mpg accompanied by obviously rich running? May be worth > checking > the coolant sensor operation, a common problem with earlier Lucas > systems; > the sensor fails showing a falsely low temperature measurement and > hence > over rich fuelling. > Also has power been disconnected from the ECU? The SPi system has an > 'adaptive' fueling control which adjusts gradually for changes in > operating > conditions and engine condition etc. When power is disconnected the > ECU > suffers severe amnesia and forgets all it has learnt in one go and > takes > time to readjust. This is usually apparent from idle exhaust gas CO > readings, which default to approx. 6% until reset electronically via > the > diagnostic connector (no mechanical adjustment available on SPi). > As an aside, is the 820SLi actually single point injection? 'i' suffix > > models are usually multi-point and 'e' suffix single point but this > may not > be universal. - ----------------Thanks for the info, the mixture seems to have no manual adjustment so I think maybe the temp sensor is faulty, I got about 200ohms when hot from the sensor. When the air inlet trunking is removed from the injector bowl, the the throttle butterfly is awash with fuel even at idle. The car seems to run OK though. The battery has probably been flat as the car has just been purchased from the back of a used car showroom and had probably stood a while. I don't have a gas analyser, so it would probably be best to have the mixture set electronically by a professional garage - I'll change the sensor anyway. Regards and thanks, Richard ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (Tom Cloud) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 07:42:57 -0500 Subject: Re: Introduction & O2 Sensor Questions >James Boughton wrote: >> >> I don't get the attachment when I receive my posts! I am lost! If you have any ideas on how to remedy this please help me. I use Microsoft Exchange for my mail reader. I have had some problems with Internet Explorer, but none with Exchange. I don't even know where to look for this problem. >> > >A couple things. You don't see the attachments, because as far as >Exchange is concerned, it is formatting data. The same formatting data >that it sends out so that other people running Billybob software, can >see all your colored text and fonts and other stuff like that. The other >thing is you don't have wrap turned on, so that your lines just go out >forever. Again, you don't see that because Exchange wraps it for you >when you receive the message. when we all go with MS software, this will no longer be a problem ... 8^) Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 09:12:03 -0400 Subject: RE: Introduction & O2 Sensor Questions >Well I see Fred also receives "the attachment" :-) I see it says something about eudora. I don't use eudora so I am wondering if this is on your machine? This "Fred" also is now using Eudora... so I can take my email to and from work on diskettes. Try that with Exchange/Outlook. Anyways, in order to turn off the attachment crap, from the inbox, go into your personal address book, and create an entry called "DIYEFI". Put in diy_efi@xxx. Turn off UUCP, turn off RTF, and set it for MIME. When you go to post a new message, as the TO: address put "DIYEFI" and it will work fine. When responding to an existing post, Outlook and/or Exchange will automatically grab the settings for the DIYEFI entry since they have the same address. I posted this to the entire list so everyone using OUTLOOK and EXCHANGE could clip and paste this and hopefully make the internet more attachment friendly :) Frederic Breitwieser Homebrew Automotive Mailing List http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/4605/index.html - --- ------------------------------ From: Joe Boucher Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 08:37:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Injected CNG > From: James Thorne > Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 08:23:47 -0500 > Subject: Injected CNG > > How short our collective memories. Wasn't it , umm, last week that we > had a post from a fellow in Houston who had done exactly that? > > He used CNG, regulated it down to about 100psi rail pressure, and two > sets of Ford MS injectors per cyl, claimed 625 hp from a 302 Mustang, > which he still has, and invited people to come and inspect. > > That was this list wasn't it? Or was it the Ford list....? > > possibly befuddled, > > Brian > ______________________________________________________ > > That was me. You are correct the discussion was on this list. I thought it odd that no one else > noticed that we had covered this just last week. > > James Thorne > Where do you get the CNG? At the Texas state fair a few years ago Lone Star Gas displayed a home pump. You hooked up to your gas line at home and hooked it to your car when you come home at night. I've been curious about Propane and CNG for years because of the reported 110 octane. 13:1 compression, here I come! Joe Boucher '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban ------------------------------ From: Thomas Wright Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 09:41:41 -0400 Subject: Re: (pas d'objet) collet wrote: > Dear, > I am very suprised and enjoy, to see diy_efi, because it doesn't exist > in France. > So my question is about the L-Jectronic Bosch system. > I would like to know if it's possible to get an electronique schema, > because we can see > on the board two specifics components: the firt one is for transform > the primary signal > come from the ignition and the second I don't know it's like an hybrid > component so by > what can I change those components? > Thank you for your help! Here is a site on the L-jet. It is interesting but not real specific. http://proffa.cc.tut.fi/~k124775/Injection.html No schematic, though. Tom Wright ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (Tom Cloud) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:55:43 -0500 Subject: RE: Introduction & O2 Sensor Questions >>Well I see Fred also receives "the attachment" :-) I see it says >something about eudora. I don't use eudora so I am wondering if this is on >your machine? > >This "Fred" also is now using Eudora... so I can take my email to and from >work on diskettes. Try that with Exchange/Outlook. I can also copy my mailboxes to a text file and then edit them ... that's one way I collect data for such things as the eec-iv list Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: sdelanty@xxx.net Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 07:37:27 -0700 Subject: Re: analog EFI >>I want to put a MSD ignition module in but I think that this will cause the efi >>ecm to freak out? >> >>Am I right in thinking this? >It may not. I'm not sure which of the MSD units do the "multiple spark >discharge" thing to the coil. I don't think they all do. If it is a >multiple discharge type then it probably will screw up the trigger >signal to the efi unit. It may depend on the time constant of the input >filter in the unit. >Is it not possible to trigger the EFI unit from the MSD ignition >trigger? I don't know if this is a Hall effect trigger or the variable >reluctance type, but it will give you one pulse per cylinder. It's a >pity that the MSD module doesn't put out a trigger-output pulse for the >synchronisation of external EFI units. (It might do that of course, >perhaps someone else might know) My MSD6A has a "tach output" terminal that gives one pulse per cyl firing. I think that would run the EFI just fine. Happy motoring, Steve Delanty 1971 F100 shortbox, FE390, T-18 4-speed ------------------------------ From: sdelanty@xxx.net Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 07:37:30 -0700 Subject: Re: Hydraulic to Hp Conversion (again) >Appologies > >Could someone please send me the formula for converting hydraulic flow at a >certain pressure that was just posted for the person creating a fluid drive >go-kart. I didn't realize I would need this so soon and tossed it. > >Or, if anyone offhand would know the Hp required to drive a belt driven SPICA >mechanical fuel injection pump at WOT for a 1800cc engine producing 132 Hp >with one injector per cylinder (popping pressure of approx 320 psi). Fuel >injection feed pump pressure around 60 psi. HP = pressure(PSI) X flow(GPM) / 1714 This assumes a 100% efficient pump. Don't forget to add Your pump and belt drive losses. Happy motoring, Steve Delanty 1971 F100 shortbox, FE390, T-18 4-speed ------------------------------ From: Jody Shapiro Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:40:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Injected CNG On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Joe Boucher wrote: > I've been curious about Propane and CNG for years because of the > reported 110 octane. > > 13:1 compression, here I come! You may be interested in a book by Jeff Hartman called, "High Performance Automotive Fuels and Fluids". He discusses CNG in there... - -Jody - -- 97 Blue Vortech Z28 http://www.bit-net.com/~jshapiro/z28/ ------------------------------ From: James C Patterson Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 07:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: (pas d'objet) Looks like TUT has changed their web server. The new address for Tero Antero Katajainen L-Jetronic page is http://www.students.tut.fi/~k124775/Injection.html James Patterson james@xxx.edu On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Thomas Wright wrote: > > Here is a site on the L-jet. It is interesting but not real specific. > http://proffa.cc.tut.fi/~k124775/Injection.html > No schematic, though. > > Tom Wright > > ------------------------------ From: mcosta@xxx.com Date: Wed, 09 Jul 97 11:42:04 EST Subject: HC11 EFI Code Does anyone have some working HC11 EFI code. I've looked around for some and have only managed to find garbled bits of code, that are readable but the instructions are all over the place along with the comments, making hard to put back together and make sense out of. If you have anything you are willing to share, please email me at: mcosta@xxx.com I am trying to develop a basic system for a couple of projects, and could really use a good starting point. I am very familar with the hc11 instruction set, but no so familiar with all the nuances of efi. Any help would be appreciated. ------------------------------ From: Mark Fabiny Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 12:12:50 -0700 Subject: Re: Injected CNG > Where do you get the CNG? At the Texas state fair a few years ago Lone > Star Gas displayed a home pump. You hooked up to your gas line at home > and hooked it to your car when you come home at night. A dozen or so gas stations in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area were offering CNG. These were fast-fill stations that took about the same amount of time to fill your tank compared to gasoline. The home compressors are definitely slow-fill (over night). Several gas stations nationwide have closed their CNG pumps because of lack of demand. The CNG market has been nearly killed because the government pulled back mandates requiring fleets to convert to alternate fuels (or they accepted reformulated gasoline as an alternate fuel). Also, OBDII has made it nearly impossible for aftermarket companies to develop conversion kits without help from the OEM's. Ford, GM, and Chrylser are still producing some CNG vehicles (last I heard), but the viability of CNG as an automotive fuel is struggling. Mark Fabiny Fort Worth, TX ex-CNG Double E ------------------------------ From: Todd King Date: Wed, 09 Jul 97 07:56:00 PDT Subject: conversion question + A couple of questions; a) what is the conversion for gal/hr to pounds/hr for gasoline? b) Also, with the turbo cars we see a dramatic rise in EGT during a 1/4 mile pass, with EGT typically rising to 1550-1700F by the end. Can anyone comment on the big picture here, energy, phyics or otherwisewise, as to what is going on with turbo engines and EGT at wot? I realize that the exh manifold up to the turbine is at much higher pressure than for n.a., the turbine is extracting energy from the exh flow, etc. but is this EGT rise "necessary" for the turbo to keep up at wot/high compressor pressure ratios/high flows, ie is the high EGT sort of indicative of the potential energy "well" existing in the manifold, necessary for the turbo to draw from to "keep up" with it's chores on the comprssor side? Wow, I'm clear as mud here, right? :-) Todd tking@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 10:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: analog EFI (MSD6A schematic) >It's a >pity that the MSD module doesn't put out a trigger-output pulse for the >synchronisation of external EFI units. (It might do that of course, >perhaps someone else might know) You can download the file msd6a_02.pdf which has a schematic of the MSD6A and discusses the various interfaces. Use the Adobe Acrobat Reader (free from www.adobe.com to read/print it). The site address is: ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming/ Bryan Zublin bzublin@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: "Andrew F. Gunnesch" Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:30:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Injected CNG On Jul 9, 12:12pm, Mark Fabiny wrote: > Several gas stations nationwide have closed their CNG pumps because of > lack of demand. The CNG market has been nearly killed because the > government pulled back mandates requiring fleets to convert to alternate > fuels (or they accepted reformulated gasoline as an alternate fuel). > Also, OBDII has made it nearly impossible for aftermarket companies to > develop conversion kits without help from the OEM's. Ford, GM, and > Chrylser are still producing some CNG vehicles (last I heard), but the > viability of CNG as an automotive fuel is struggling. Around here in Dearborn, MI I see lots of FFV and CNG vehicles. They're definitely making and experimenting with them (Ford, anyhow) - --andrew ------------------------------ From: Sam Brooks Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 13:24:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: INFORMATION FOR MICROSOFT EXCHANGE USERS James Boughton said; >I don't get the attachment when I receive my posts! I am lost! >If you have any ideas on how to remedy this please help me. >I use Microsoft Exchange for my mail reader. I have had some problems >with Internet Explorer, but none with Exchange. >I don't even know where to look for this problem. Hi, The following information may prove to be of value to you. Sam Brooks KitCar Listowner sbrooks@xxx.net INFORMATION FOR MICROSOFT EXCHANGE USERS: ======================================== If you use Microsoft Exchange to read and send mail, please take the time to read this text carefully. If you do not follow the instructions, you will have difficulty posting to some forums on the Internet. THE EXCHANGE PROBLEM: ===================== When Microsoft Exchange is used to send mail to Internet addresses, it sometimes includes extra material at the end of your message. Other Exchange users will not see this material - it will be decoded and used to tell their copy of Exchange which fonts and colours you used -but people using other mail programs will just see lots of garbage tacked on the end of your message, or they will be told that there is a file attached to the message. The majority of people on the Internet do not use Exchange, and these attachments aren't any use to them. As far as I have been able to tell through experimentation, it is not possible to change a single configuration option to prevent unwanted attachments with Exchange. You must change the appropriate option for each Internet address that you send mail. SENDING ATTACHMENTS WITH YOUR MAIL: ================================== It is not possible to turn attachments on and off for a particular message. Whether or not attachments are added to your message seems to depend on whether you are using sending to an entry in the address book, or to an address that you just typed in. When an address is not in the address book, you can use colour, fonts and different styles in a message, but MS Exchange will usually discard it all before sending the message, without telling you that it is doing so. Sometimes, however, attachments will be added; according to the help file, this happens when you use a 'one shot' address - one that's just typed in to the To: box. If an address is in the book, you can tell Exchange whether or not you want the information about colour, fonts and so on included when you send mail to that address. The only reliable way to control whether or not attachments are sent is to send mail using the address book entry every time, and to configure the entry so that attachments will not be sent. To configure this, pull down the Tools menu in Exchange and select Address Book. Find the entry that you want to change and double click on it. Now, if it's not on top automatically, click on the tab marked "SMTP - Internet". You will see two boxes, labelled "Display Name" and "E-mail address." Check that these are correct, and then look at the check box below, which is labelled "Always send messages in Microsoft Exchange rich text format." Unless you know that the people you are writing to also use MS Exchange, you should make sure that there is NO TICK IN THIS BOX. When this box is ticked, Exchange adds attachments to your message, giving details about fonts and colours in a non-standard Microsoft format. If in doubt about the mail program that someone else is using, or if you are posting to a public forum such as a mailing list or a newsgroup, you should ensure that this option is turned off. Sending unnecessary attachments is anti-social and wasteful. How wasteful? A message 38 letter long, with one word in colour and one in a different font, acquires an attachment of 1514 letters to describe it to Exchange users! WINMAIL.DAT and application/ms-tnef =================================== These are the two things that appear in mail that you send to other people from Exchange; WINMAIL.DAT is a UUencoded file, and application/ms-tnef is a MIME type. Both have the same effect on people not using Exchange - they see garbage at the end of your messages, and often have to pay to download it. Options for attachments are set in Exchange via the Tools menu; select Services, then choose Internet Mail and select Properties. The button near the bottom of the Window labelled Message Format allows you to choose whether MIME format messages are sent from MS Exchange. In general, it is probably better to use MIME than not; if you don't select MIME, Exchange will use UUencoding, which is an older and less sophisticated way of handling attachments. Exchange and the uk-motss mailing lists ======================================= Both the uk-motss and uk-motss-women lists are currently set up to reject any messages that contain file attachments, including information from Microsoft Exchange, whether in MIME or UUencoded formats. If your post is returned to you by the list system, with an error that includes either: 'UUencoded file attachments are not allowed on this list' or'The MIME content type application/ms-tnef is not allowed on this list' then Microsoft exchange is adding extra information to the bottom of your messages, and you should follow the instructions above to prevent this happening in future. The best solution is to create an entry in your address book for each list that you are a member of, and set it up as described above. Make sure that you always use the address book entry when you send mail to the list. Nigel Whitfield, List Maintainer. ================ ADDENDUM FROM KITCAR LIST: ========================== The KitCar List is also set up to reject any messages/posts that contain file attachments of the type mentioned in this file. Your posts never make it to the KitCar List for general distribution, but are "bounced" over to me for disposition. HTH Sam Brooks KitCar List Admin kitcar-owner@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Michael McBroom Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 13:20:39 -0700 Subject: Re: conversion question + Todd King wrote: > > A couple of questions; a) what is the conversion for gal/hr to > pounds/hr for gasoline? Whenever you want to convert from the volume of a substance to the mass of that substance (or vice versa), you must know the density (or specific gravity). In the case of gasoline, according to one of my references, the density of gasoline can vary from 0.66 to 0.69 gm/cm^3 (at STP). Split the difference, and call it 0.675gm/cm^3. I've worked out a conversion that will take one from ml/min to lb/hr, which is handy when comparing Bosch to US injectors. Dividing ml/min by 11.2 will give you lb/hr. Conversely, multiplying lb/hr by 11.2 will give you ml/min. In your case, you will need to arrive at the density of gasoline in US units. I figure it to be 0.675gm/cm^3 x 4546cm^3/gal x 1 lb/453.6gm = 6.765 lb/gal of gasoline, on average. I'm sure someone else here will have a chart listing the density of gasoline in US units. I don't. But my calcs should be close. The rest is easy. Divide lb/hr by 6.765 to get gal/hr, multiply gal/hr by 6.765 to get lb/hr. > b) Also, with the turbo cars we see a dramatic > rise in EGT during a 1/4 mile pass, with EGT typically rising to > 1550-1700F by the end. Can anyone comment on the big picture here, > energy, phyics or otherwisewise, as to what is going on with turbo > engines and EGT at wot? I realize that the exh manifold up to the > turbine is at much higher pressure than for n.a., the turbine is > extracting energy from the exh flow, etc. but is this EGT rise > "necessary" for the turbo to keep up at wot/high compressor pressure > ratios/high flows, ie is the high EGT sort of indicative of the > potential energy "well" existing in the manifold, necessary for the > turbo to draw from to "keep up" with it's chores on the comprssor > side? Wow, I'm clear as mud here, right? :-) First off, the spike in EGT you're seeing isn't because of what you've theorized. It's because at elevated boost conditions, your fuel system is going lean on you. Overly high O2 concentrations can superheat your EGT, causing melted pistons and other wonderful byproducts. I would recommend that you go with larger injectors, additional injectors, or a rising rate fuel pressure regulator to counteract the lean condition your engine is experiencing. Secondly, the exhaust side of the turbo should not be seeing significantly high pressures. High backpressures on the exhaust side of a turbo *kill* performance. If you're running a low restriction, or open, exhaust, and a turbo that's been properly sized for your application, high back pressures are most likely not your problem. - -- Best, Michael McBroom '87 745T 123k w/APC (batoutahell!) '88 765T 154k _________________________________________________________________________ Graduate Student, Linguistics Author of Research Interest: Biological Origins =McBroom's Camera Bluebook= of Language http://mcbrooms.com California State University, Fullerton _________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: Fred Miranda Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:30:14 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: conversion question + Todd, a: I think I saw that gas weighs 6.1-6.5#/gal depending on the type. b: Most turbos won't *need* any 1700f but they will spool up faster with some excess heat(ie from retarded timing or lean mixture). I guess if your turbine side was somewhat oversized it might just need all the energy(in whatever form) it could get. Fred At 07:56 AM 7/9/97 PDT, you wrote: > A couple of questions; a) what is the conversion for gal/hr to > pounds/hr for gasoline? b) Also, with the turbo cars we see a dramatic > rise in EGT during a 1/4 mile pass, with EGT typically rising to > 1550-1700F by the end. Can anyone comment on the big picture here, > energy, phyics or otherwisewise, as to what is going on with turbo > engines and EGT at wot? I realize that the exh manifold up to the > turbine is at much higher pressure than for n.a., the turbine is > extracting energy from the exh flow, etc. but is this EGT rise > "necessary" for the turbo to keep up at wot/high compressor pressure > ratios/high flows, ie is the high EGT sort of indicative of the > potential energy "well" existing in the manifold, necessary for the > turbo to draw from to "keep up" with it's chores on the comprssor > side? Wow, I'm clear as mud here, right? :-) > > Todd tking@xxx.com > > ------------------------------ From: Mark Fabiny Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 15:32:16 -0700 Subject: Re: Injected CNG Andrew F. Gunnesch wrote: > Around here in Dearborn, MI I see lots of FFV and CNG vehicles. They're > definitely making and experimenting with them (Ford, anyhow) Andrew, I didn't mean to imply that CNG's use in automobiles was dead. All I'm trying to say is that the natural gas vehicle industry was MUCH more optimistic about its future 2 years ago than it is today. CNG may indeed gain acceptance as an alternative to gasoline, it will just take longer than most had hoped. FYI: Last I heard, Ford was offering the FFV Tauras, dedicated CNG Crown Victoria, bi-fuel Econoline van, and bi-fuel F150 truck, and GM had re-introduced its CNG Sierra pickup. Mark ------------------------------ From: Neil Poersch/MTSCom/MTS Date: 9 Jul 97 12:52:33 Subject: RE: O2 sensor output vs temp vs impedance I second this request. This is exactly what I am looking for. Neil >Also Frank, any way you could put a copy of that graph on the DIY web site >so all of us could get a look at it. ------------------------------ From: Neil Poersch/MTSCom/MTS Date: 9 Jul 97 12:49:10 Subject: RE: O2 sensor output vs temp vs impedance Frank > I have a enginering graph from Bosch for their LSM-11 sensor Is this sensor extremely expensive? and interchangeable with a standard sensor? >PS: Very good book on automotive sensors (including O2) is "Automotive >Electronics Handbook" by Jurgen, ISBN:0-07-033189-8 I think I've seen this book on the SAE Web site. Does it have enough detailed info about O2 sensors to warrant my buying it or are they mentioned only in a paragraph or so? Neil ------------------------------ From: collet Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 23:07:41 +0200 Subject: Bosch L-Jectronic On my board I have a 25 pins out connector (not oxy. sensor) and one of the specific component of 14 pins is built by Siemens for Bosch and it has two number:0124;6352 and it's for transform the signal for ignition. I see the www about the L jectronic, not bad but I dont get what I research. ------------------------------ From: Bernard Ward Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 20:41:15 -0400 Subject: Re: (pas d'objet) collet wrote: > > Dear, > I am very suprised and enjoy, to see diy_efi, because it doesn't exist in France. > So my question is about the L-Jectronic Bosch system. > I would like to know if it's possible to get an electronique schema, because we can see > on the board two specifics components: the firt one is for transform the primary signal > come from the ignition and the second I don't know it's like an hybrid component so by > what can I change those components? > Thank you for your help! Zoot Alor! Barney ------------------------------ From: Steven Arnold Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:48:56 +1000 Subject: Coolant temp sensor circuitry, injector lugs What method do most efi computers use for measuring the resistance of the coolant temp sensor - a wheatstone bridge, a constand current source, or perhaps just a potential divider type setup? (This question may have been more appropriate for the efi332 list) Also, the injector connectors used on late model Mazda engines, some Mitsubishi's etc - what are they, where can the lugs that fit in them be found? thanks ------------------------------ From: Todd King Date: Wed, 09 Jul 97 18:18:00 PDT Subject: Re: EGT rising at wot with boost <<< First off, the spike in EGT you're seeing isn't because of what you've theorized. It's because at elevated boost conditions, your fuel system is going lean on you. Overly high O2 concentrations can superheat your EGT, causing melted pistons and other wonderful byproducts. I would recommend that you go with larger injectors, additional injectors, or a rising rate fuel pressure regulator to counteract the lean condition your engine is experiencing. >>> Well, no, there's something else going on here that I'm asking about. I agree that leanness will cause problems but we (being a relatively large sample size) see the rise whether rich, right on, double extra injectors, six 55#/hr inj on a 231" engine, whatever. I see it on my car when it's pig rich. I guess a good illustration of the effect is the dramatic photos one sees of turbo engines at full boogie on a dyno with exh parts glowing bright red all the way up to the turbine; much cooler pipes though (ie no glow) after the turbine, which has extracted its energy. <<< Secondly, the exhaust side of the turbo should not be seeing significantly high pressures. High backpressures on the exhaust side >>> I must not have been clear enough; the higher pressure I was referring to is in the exh manifold before the turbine, not after, and relative to n.a. exh press which is close to atmosphereic (for open exh). Todd tking@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Frank F Parker Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:28:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: conversion question + > rise in EGT during a 1/4 mile pass, with EGT typically rising to > 1550-1700F by the end. Can anyone comment on the big picture here, > energy, phyics or otherwisewise, as to what is going on with turbo > engines and EGT at wot? I realize that the exh manifold up to the > turbine is at much higher pressure than for n.a., the turbine is > extracting energy from the exh flow, etc. but is this EGT rise > "necessary" for the turbo to keep up at wot/high compressor pressure > ratios/high flows, ie is the high EGT sort of indicative of the > potential energy "well" existing in the manifold, necessary for the > turbo to draw from to "keep up" with it's chores on the comprssor > side? Wow, I'm clear as mud here, right? :-) > > Todd tking@xxx.com > Todd, Corky Bell's new book published by Robert Bently called "Maximum Boost" is all about turbos and their theory, installation and tuning. It is excellent. From there you will learn that normal turbine back pressure is 2-3 times manifold pressure but the lower the better to a certain point as pressure is necessary to extract the energy as you suggested. I found in my own turbo car that had a pretty restrictive cat and exhaust, that I had very high temps (1650 deg F) until I lowered the pressure after the turbo. I measured it by silver soldering a thin (.035) wall 1/8 in tube into a hose clamp, drilling the outlet pipe and clamping tube to pipe and running hose up to a pressure gauge. I had 2 times turbine outlet ( not inlet) pressure but after bigger cat and pipes lowered the pressure to about a psi and lowered egt by 200 deg. Frank Parker fparker@xxx.edu ------------------------------ From: Frank F Parker Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:43:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: O2 sensor output vs temp vs impedance > I second this request. This is exactly what I am looking for. > > Neil > > >Also Frank, any way you could put a copy of that graph on the DIY web site > >so all of us could get a look at it. > Yes, I will do this as soon as I can buy a good 24 bit or better color scanner that will work with my Gateway 166 MMX portable. Not much available for parallal port. May get PCMCIA scuzzi (sp) interface? SUGGESTIONS gratefully accepted. Frank Parker fparker@xxx.edu > > > ------------------------------ From: Frank F Parker Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:38:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: O2 sensor output vs temp vs impedance On 9 Jul 1997, Neil Poersch/MTSCom/MTS wrote: > > > I have a enginering graph from Bosch for their LSM-11 sensor > > Is this sensor extremely expensive? and interchangeable with a standard sensor? > It costs about $180 and is interchangeable- a big advantage since std prod ecm will work. > >PS: Very good book on automotive sensors (including O2) is "Automotive > >Electronics Handbook" by Jurgen, ISBN:0-07-033189-8 > > I think I've seen this book on the SAE Web site. Does it have enough detailed > info about > O2 sensors to warrant my buying it or are they mentioned only in a paragraph or > so? > This book has a complete large chapter on O2 sensors written by Bosch engineers. It is very good. Book is expensive-$89 list but I have seen it free as part of Tab Book Club. Frank fparker@xxx.edu ------------------------------ From: Ric Rainbolt Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 21:31:46 -0500 Subject: RE: O2 sensor output vs temp vs impedance >Yes, I will do this as soon as I can buy a good 24 bit or better color >scanner that will work with my Gateway 166 MMX portable. Not much >available for parallal port. May get PCMCIA scuzzi (sp) interface? >SUGGESTIONS gratefully accepted. > >Frank Parker >fparker@xxx.edu If you will ship a copy, I'll scan it and post it. I'll even pay for the FEDEX charges if you'll do so. Ric Rainbolt ricrain@xxx.net ------------------------------ From: Simon Quested Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 15:17:45 +1200 Subject: Re: analog EFI (MSD6A schematic) Hi Bryan Exclent stuff !!! Thanks for the help Simon +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Simon Quested (E-mail questeds@xxx.nz) Computer Technician, Silicon Graphics & Windows NT Support Centre for Computing and Biometrics LINCOLN UNIVERSITY OF NEW ZEALAND Phone (64)(03) 3252811 Ext. 8087 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ http://www.lincoln.ac.nz/ccb/techs/simon/default.htm +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ If voting could really change things, it would be illegal. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ From: Johnny Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 01:25:14 -0700 Subject: Re: Coolant temp sensor circuitry, injector lugs Steven Arnold wrote: > > What method do most efi computers use for measuring the resistance of > the coolant temp sensor - a wheatstone bridge, a constand current > source, or perhaps just a potential divider type setup? (This question > may have been more appropriate for the efi332 list) You might want to have a look at the IO board schematic on the ftp site. The efi332 project uses an MC145051 A/D converter after the various inputs are run through a choke and a resistor with a cap to ground (just a basic filter) and another resistor to VCC (voltage divider in simplest terms). A/D converter just takes the input voltage and converts it into a value that is sent as serial data to the QSM module in the CPU. - -j- (trying to write some code for the QSM->A/D as we speak) ------------------------------ From: Rich Mauruschat Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:36:26 +0100 Subject: Re: Coolant temp sensor circuitry, injector lugs At 10:48 10/07/97 +1000, you wrote: >What method do most efi computers use for measuring the resistance of >the coolant temp sensor - a wheatstone bridge, a constand current >source, or perhaps just a potential divider type setup? (This question >may have been more appropriate for the efi332 list) > >Also, the injector connectors used on late model Mazda engines, some >Mitsubishi's etc - what are they, where can the lugs that fit in them be >found? > >thanks > > > Generally (in the stuff that we see in the UK at least) the coolant sensor is connected as the bottom half of a potential divider with a pull-up resistor to supply, generally 5V logic supply. The signal is then taken from the divider junction. A popular value of pull-up resistor is approx. 1K8 ohms where the sensor resistance at 20C is approx. 2K ohms, at 100C approx. 180 ohms. (this seems to be the case for Bosch systems at least; Ford have a tendency to use a higher resistance sensor). Occasionally a constant current source is used. An interesting deviation from this is found in some of the later GM Multec systems (Opel/Vauxhall) where the pull-up resistor is switched part way through the range to improve the resolution at the range extremes. Hope this helps Richard. ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #232 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".