DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, 15 July 1997 Volume 02 : Number 238 In this issue: Re: linear EFI Re: le jetronic fault codes? GM TBI questions - again Electromotive question Re: Electromotive question FW: Electromotive question Motronic 4.3 Pin outs Re: EEC-iv connectors Re: conversion question + unsubscribing Re: conversion question + Re: conversion question + "Maximum Boost" Re: conversion question + Re: 700R4 ratios Re: 700R4 ratios Re: 700R4 ratios Mileage Re: unsubscribing Re: conversion question + See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cloud@xxx.edu (Tom Cloud) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 07:34:36 -0500 Subject: Re: linear EFI >Almost a year ago, tom cloud wrote: >> >> >TBI will lose the whole rpm range to a good port injected intake. >> >Ergo... >> > >> >-- >> >Ed Hernandez >> >> okay, Ed. You said your specialty was manifolds. Let me pick your >> brain, if that's okay. Currently have the Holley 650 cfm TBI on >> Edelbrock Performer manifold on 351W. Plan to get Motorsport 351W >> (the cast-iron head dude with 346 hp rated). Do you think I'd lose >> to put a 351W HO TPI system from a junk yard on it instead? Would >> then play with either building a controller, modifying a Ford unit >> or maybe (as pondered in previous post) a GM controller. >> >> I.E.: Do you think I'll lose by dumping the Performer and going to the >> Ford stock TPI manifold? > >You may remember that the reason I dropped myself of the list was >because I couldn't read all the mail. I still have 800 messages to go, >and I know this is a late answer(maybe too late), but you will lose by >dumpering the Performer. My opinion, not a fact. 799 to go... > > >Ed Hernandez >Ford AVT Motorsport Technology >ehernan3@xxx.com the "Engine Analyzer" software I bought (after I asked you that above) agrees with you. The GT-40 EFI manifold is approximately the same in performance as the Performer, but not the stock efi manifold (again, according to the software). Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: Rich Mauruschat Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 13:32:47 +0100 Subject: Re: le jetronic fault codes? At 14:46 13/07/97 +0300, you wrote: >Hi Richard, > >i know the motronic ml4.1 system, as fitted to (in my case) the 2L gsi opel >kadett ( 8v) >i think its called a vauxhall astra ? in the uk ? ,anyway i know this >system returns the >error codes via the engine warning light on the dashboard if certain pins >in the diagnostic >plug are shorted out.. > >so my other car is a opel monza 1.6L gsi ( again i think its called a >belmont in uk?) >the efi seems to be very similar to the L jetronic sytem ? ,but it does >seem to have >a micro proccesor since it returns error codes in the same way as the ml4.1 >system >its been my understanding that this system on the 1.6l is the le or maybe >l3 jetronic, >have i maybe got the wrong name acociated with this aplication? >any more info? > >thanx a lot , >nico > > Nico, I still believe my original stance that neither LE or L3 offer error codes of any form; although there is a small possibility (I am not 100% sure in all honesty) that L3 may offer limited 'blink code' information as you are familiar with on ML4.1, I am trying to positively answer this question for my own interest. Incidentally, 4.1 offers serial datastream error code information from the diagnostic connector as well as 'blink code'. As far as the 1.6 gsi is concerned, I think that all 1.6 engines are fitted with Multec management (as opposed to Motronic), this is certainly the case in Europe, Multec supports both blink code and serial datastream error codes. What age is the 1.6? Richard. ------------------------------ From: Greg Woods Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 08:48:42 -0500 Subject: GM TBI questions - again original post: > > Hey all, > > > > as some of you may remember I recently completed installation of a 86 GM TBI system > > into my 2.8l cherokee. I drove it around 1500 miles over the 4th of july weekend > > without any problems! However, their are a few things puzzling me. > > The car pops / backfires upon deceleration. Does this mean the air/fuel is too rich > > at that time? How can I fix this?? update: Thanks to all who responded with ideas. Basically everyone suggested that I start at the TPS sensor. This brings me to another clue that I forgot to mention (oops, sorry about that!:)) When I place the computer in diagnostics mode, my computer strobs out an error 22. Using the haynes manual GM error code translation, it tells me this is a "Throttle position sensor voltage low". So I get my DMM out and look at the voltage on the TPS with the ignition on (engine not started). It reads around 390 mV. The manual specifies < 1 volt is OK. But I decide to rotate the TPS to raise the voltage reading anyway. I do this and now the voltage is around 510mV, but perfomance does not improve. I must not be interpreting this error code correctly. Can someone tell me what it means? Should I just replace the TPS?? When I rebuilt the throttle body, I put an ohm meter across the POT and looked at the resistance as I swung the wiper. It went from around 0 to ~2.5K smoothly and appeared perfectly normal to me. Thats why I don't understand how it could be bad? TIA! BTW, what is a "tip" or a "tip leaker"?? Greg Woods gwoods@xxx.com austin, tx 86 cherokee 2.8l TBI ------------------------------ From: mcosta@xxx.com Date: Mon, 14 Jul 97 10:04:47 EST Subject: Electromotive question The electromotive manual says that the tec-II uses some sort of other processor besides an hc-11 (I think) to calculate fuel and spark information, relieving the burden from the microcontroller. My question is does any one know who makes this secondary processor and what its called. ------------------------------ From: peter paul fenske Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Electromotive question Well the easiest way to interface to a HC11 is to use another HC11 via the SPI buss. Of course a 68705 could be used as well as a custom ASIC.. Have fun:peter At 10:04 AM 7/14/97 EST, you wrote: > The electromotive manual says that the tec-II uses some sort of other > processor besides an hc-11 (I think) to calculate fuel and spark > information, relieving the burden from the microcontroller. My > question is does any one know who makes this secondary processor and > what its called. > > > > ------------------------------ From: "Atkinson, David" Date: Fri, 11 Jul 97 18:10:00 MDT Subject: FW: Electromotive question Yup. It's called a HREIC ("hirec") chip - it's an ASIC developed by Electromotive (or so they claim...) that determines engine speed, position and acceleration in hardware. It stands for High Resolution Electronic Ignition Controller. I think you'd have a real tough time getting your hands on one... but if you were to design your own... Not sure about the status of any related patents - it might be worthwhile to investigate since the use of a device like this makes programming the ECU so much easier, and you can probably use a slower, less capable microcontroller (less expensive) with this approach. My $.02 ---------- From: mcosta Sent: Monday, July 14, 1997 10:04 AM To: diy_efi Subject: Electromotive question The electromotive manual says that the tec-II uses some sort of other processor besides an hc-11 (I think) to calculate fuel and spark information, relieving the burden from the microcontroller. My question is does any one know who makes this secondary processor and what its called. ------------------------------ From: "Jonathan Robins" Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 18:21:15 +0100 Subject: Motronic 4.3 Pin outs Hi all I wonder if any of you could possibly help me. As well as my EFI project I have now become involved in a project to change the engine in a Volvo 850 from a 2.5L 20V to a T5 turbo engine. The ECU on the 2.5L engine is an LH3.2 Jetronic system which has two ECU modules, one to control fuel and the other for ignition. However, the new engine uses the Motronic 4.3 ECU which consists of just one module that controls everything. My question is, Where can I get the pin outs for both ECU systems so that I can wire the Motronic ECU to the car which did have the Jetronic system in it? Any advice or thoughts would be welcomed! Thanks Jonathan Robins ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (Tom Cloud) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:52:48 -0500 Subject: Re: EEC-iv connectors >Can anybody help me find a source of Ford EEC-iv connectors to purchase? >European spec. 3-row 60 pin format - I'm not sure if US components would be >the same? I need to source both halves, ECU and engine harness and >terminals. Part numbers and/or contact address would be much appreciated. >Thanks >Richard I posted this to the eec-iv list and got: Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 13:16:32 -0400 To: cloud@xxx.edu From: Greg Lowe Subject: 60 pin EEC connector Tom I have these connectors, I use them for the Informer. Don't know if there is a difference in the US vs European though. Wouldn't think so. 3 row, split in half, with a bolt in the center, 60 pin. Regards, Greg Lowe Informer: http://www.intercall.com/~gendev/informer Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: Jody Shapiro Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:54:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: conversion question + On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Frank F Parker wrote: > Corky Bell's new book published by Robert Bently called "Maximum Boost" > is all about turbos and their theory, installation and tuning. It is Do you have an ISBN? I sent an email to sales@xxx. :/ Thanks, - -Jody - -- 97 Blue Vortech Z28 http://www.bit-net.com/~jshapiro/z28/ ------------------------------ From: Charles Beatty Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 15:10:31 -0400 Subject: unsubscribing We had a user leave who was subscribed to this group. I can "become" him for purposes of unsubscribing. What address and syntax do I need to use? Thanks. - -- Charles Beatty cbeatty@xxx.org Manager of Systems Administration 410-614-3008 Voice Genome Database 410-614-0434 FAX Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine gdbwww.gdb.org ------------------------------ From: Mark Fabiny Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:37:20 -0700 Subject: Re: conversion question + Jody Shapiro wrote: > > On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Frank F Parker wrote: > > > Corky Bell's new book published by Robert Bently called "Maximum Boost" > > is all about turbos and their theory, installation and tuning. It is > > Do you have an ISBN? > > I sent an email to sales@xxx. > :/ > > Thanks, > -Jody Amazon.com shows the book for $34.95, shipping in 2 to 3 days. See them at http://www.amazon.com. You can do a search by title and author to get the info on the book. Mark ------------------------------ From: Orin Eman Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 13:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: conversion question + > Jody Shapiro wrote: > > > > On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Frank F Parker wrote: > > > > > Corky Bell's new book published by Robert Bently called "Maximum Boost" > > > is all about turbos and their theory, installation and tuning. It is > > > > Do you have an ISBN? > > > > I sent an email to sales@xxx. > > :/ > > > > Thanks, > > -Jody > Amazon.com shows the book for $34.95, shipping in 2 to 3 days. See them > at http://www.amazon.com. You can do a search by title and author to > get the info on the book. >From www.barnesandnoble.com: Pub. Price: $34.95 B&N Price: $27.96 You Save: $6.99 (20%) ISBN#: 0837601606 Format: Paperback Date Published: April 1997 Orin. ------------------------------ From: Jody Shapiro Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:43:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell ISBN is 0837601606 List price is $34.95 and that's the cost through Robert Bentley (the publisher) and Amazon. I'll have to see what Barnes & Noble wants for it. Thanks, - -Jody - -- 97 Blue Vortech Z28 http://www.bit-net.com/~jshapiro/z28/ ------------------------------ From: Jay Wallace Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:58:26 -0400 Subject: Re: conversion question + At 02:54 PM 7/14/97 -0400, you wrote: >On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Frank F Parker wrote: > >> Corky Bell's new book published by Robert Bently called "Maximum Boost" >> is all about turbos and their theory, installation and tuning. It is > >Do you have an ISBN? > Jody, the ISBN for Bell's book Maximum Boost is 0837601606. Classic Motorbooks says that they have them in stock for $34.95 +$5. s/h. They do not appear to have a web page but their phone number is 800.826.6600. Jay ------------------------------ From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 19:20:57 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: 700R4 ratios Gentlemen, it's official. MY TPI has actually lost about 1mpg in the city. Highway milage aint worth bragging about either. I simply must have the best fuel economy possible with the '89 GM 5.7L TPI system. What does the TPI engine & ECM like as far as final drive ratio?? I'm at a loss as to why my TPI system is not performing at it's best. Any ideas? Do I need to drop to a lower gear ratio? Below is a engine speed vs vehicle speed data set. This is calculated data, but it aggrees with my instruments. 2.73:1 rear end ratio 27.125" dia tires. Thanks for the data Chief! rpm 1st 3.06 2nd 1.62 3rd 1.0 4th 0.70 500 4.829933 9.123207 14.7796 21.11371 600 5.79592 10.94785 17.73551 25.33645 700 6.761906 12.77249 20.69143 29.55919 800 7.727893 14.59713 23.64735 33.78193 900 8.69388 16.42177 26.60327 38.00467 1000 9.659866 18.24641 29.55919 42.22742 1100 10.62585 20.07106 32.51511 46.45016 1200 11.59184 21.8957 35.47103 50.6729 1300 12.55783 23.72034 38.42695 54.89564 1400 13.52381 25.54498 41.38287 59.11838 1500 14.4898 27.36962 44.33879 63.34112 (I show 65mph at 1500rpm) 1600 15.45579 29.19426 47.29471 67.56386 1700 16.42177 31.0189 50.25062 71.78661 1800 17.38776 32.84355 53.20654 76.00935 1900 18.35375 34.66819 56.16246 80.23209 2000 19.31973 36.49283 59.11838 84.45483 2100 20.28572 38.31747 62.0743 88.67757 2200 21.25171 40.14211 65.03022 92.90031 2300 22.21769 41.96675 67.98614 97.12306 2400 23.18368 43.79139 70.94206 101.3458 Help' GMD At 02:59 PM 6/13/97 -0400, I wrote: >>...I've wrote >>it off to my 2.73:1 gear ratio and 27-1/8" diameter P255 60-15's. Does >>anyone have the gear ratios for the 700R4 tranny? It seems like my gas >>milage in the city has dropped from 13 -14 to 12-13. Dope! >> >>GMD > >Ratios are 3.06, 1.62, 1.00, 0.70. > >Ed Hilker aka "Chief" >84'SS - 700R4 > > > George M. Dailey gmd@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (Tom Cloud) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:03:42 -0500 Subject: Re: 700R4 ratios >Gentlemen, it's official. MY TPI has actually lost about 1mpg in the city. [ snip ] did the mpg drop occur suddenly or gradually ?? remember that a worn engine is less efficient and will get less mpg as it ages Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: peter paul fenske Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 18:36:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: 700R4 ratios HI George Well the TPI in my truck gives me about 20 MPG irregardless of what I do.. Definitely better than CARB. Although at 90 MPH Am using 3.08 in truck with 700R4.. I guess you could try bumping the timing. I am running 14 initial and can still use reg. Seldom does knock show up on the scanner This timing is worth 2MPG over stock.. You could also play with the timing map. Also lock up the TCC earlier but this gets to be a pain.. Mind you I forget if you are using a TPI ecm. The TBI does strange things.. and will run a wee bit rich on a TPI although prob ok. Cya:peter At 07:20 PM 7/14/97 -0500, you wrote: >Gentlemen, it's official. MY TPI has actually lost about 1mpg in the city. >Highway milage aint worth bragging about either. I simply must have the best >fuel economy possible with the '89 GM 5.7L TPI system. What does the TPI >engine & ECM like as far as final drive ratio?? I'm at a loss as to why my >TPI system is not performing at it's best. Any ideas? Do I need to drop to a >lower gear ratio? Below is a engine speed vs vehicle speed data set. This is >calculated data, but it aggrees with my instruments. 2.73:1 rear end ratio >27.125" dia tires. Thanks for the data Chief! > >rpm 1st 3.06 2nd 1.62 3rd 1.0 4th 0.70 >500 4.829933 9.123207 14.7796 21.11371 >600 5.79592 10.94785 17.73551 25.33645 >700 6.761906 12.77249 20.69143 29.55919 >800 7.727893 14.59713 23.64735 33.78193 >900 8.69388 16.42177 26.60327 38.00467 >1000 9.659866 18.24641 29.55919 42.22742 >1100 10.62585 20.07106 32.51511 46.45016 >1200 11.59184 21.8957 35.47103 50.6729 >1300 12.55783 23.72034 38.42695 54.89564 >1400 13.52381 25.54498 41.38287 59.11838 >1500 14.4898 27.36962 44.33879 63.34112 (I show 65mph at 1500rpm) >1600 15.45579 29.19426 47.29471 67.56386 >1700 16.42177 31.0189 50.25062 71.78661 >1800 17.38776 32.84355 53.20654 76.00935 >1900 18.35375 34.66819 56.16246 80.23209 >2000 19.31973 36.49283 59.11838 84.45483 >2100 20.28572 38.31747 62.0743 88.67757 >2200 21.25171 40.14211 65.03022 92.90031 >2300 22.21769 41.96675 67.98614 97.12306 >2400 23.18368 43.79139 70.94206 101.3458 > >Help' >GMD > >At 02:59 PM 6/13/97 -0400, I wrote: >>>...I've wrote >>>it off to my 2.73:1 gear ratio and 27-1/8" diameter P255 60-15's. Does >>>anyone have the gear ratios for the 700R4 tranny? It seems like my gas >>>milage in the city has dropped from 13 -14 to 12-13. Dope! >>> >>>GMD >> >>Ratios are 3.06, 1.62, 1.00, 0.70. >> >>Ed Hilker aka "Chief" >>84'SS - 700R4 >> >> >> >George M. Dailey >gmd@xxx.com > > ------------------------------ From: Jennifer Rose Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 18:49:15 -0700 Subject: Mileage Hi George Ya describing are wonderful new fuel out here in CA. Lost about 10% in mileage - 11 mpg to 10 mpg in my pu Vance ------------------------------ From: Johnny Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:16:17 -0700 Subject: Re: unsubscribing Charles Beatty wrote: > > We had a user leave who was subscribed to this group. I can "become" him > for purposes of unsubscribing. What address and syntax do I need to use? > > Thanks. > > -- > Charles Beatty cbeatty@xxx.org > Manager of Systems Administration 410-614-3008 Voice > Genome Database 410-614-0434 FAX > Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine gdbwww.gdb.org majordomo@xxx.edu unsubscribe diy_efi ------------------------------ From: James Weiler Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: conversion question + > > > On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Frank F Parker wrote: > > > > > > > Corky Bell's new book published by Robert Bently called "Maximum Boost" > > > > is all about turbos and their theory, installation and tuning. It is > > > Hi I'm very turbo ignorant and need a good starter book. Would anybody care to recommend this one or any other book as a good place to start? I need something in the same format as the Jeff Hartman book on EFI. thanks in advance jw ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #238 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".