DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, 17 July 1997 Volume 02 : Number 241 In this issue: Re: fuel inj parts from MSD [all] ProJection DFI for sale Re: fuel inj parts from MSD Re: Leak down testing (not strictly EFI related) Promised supercharger information Engine Control IC'S Re: 700R4 ratios Air mass sensor Re: Engine Control IC'S RE: Leak down testing (not strictly EFI related) Re: Fuel pressure guage isolator Re: fuel inj parts from MSD Re: fuel inj parts from MSD Re[2]: Engine Control IC'S Small injectors (was Re: fuel inj parts from MSD) Re: [all] ProJection DFI for sale Re: [all] ProJection DFI for sale an eec plan 60 Pin Connector Group Buy Re: an eec plan Re: Fuel pressure guage isolator See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Carlos Costa" Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:38:53 +0100 Subject: Re: fuel inj parts from MSD > From: Robert J. Korn > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: fuel inj parts from MSD > Date: Terga-feira, 15 de Julho de 1997 20:37 > > I just received a flyer from MSD on fuel management products. > It has some nice stuff, EGO, TEMP, Pumps, regulators, and some tech > notes including drawings of the injector and pocket hole dimensions. > I do have access to a scanner if anyone wants to see the drawings > but for a freebie catalog its a must have......... Sounds great!... Where/how can I get my hands on a catalog? (I'm in Europe...) Carlos mec144@xxx.pt Faculdade de Engenharia da Universidade do Porto ------------------------------ From: "Robert Gallant" Date: Wed, 16 Jul 97 08:38:06 EDT Subject: [all] ProJection DFI for sale I'm selling my Holley Projection DFI (PC programmable). Its approx 1.5 years old. 700 CFM 4-bbl throttle body 65 and 80 lb/hr injector sets idle air control programmable ignition timing data acquisition software System measures: RPM Intake air temp Water temp O2 Manifold absolute pressure Email me for additional information. Rob gallant@xxx.mil ------------------------------ From: Greg Woods Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 07:53:51 -0500 Subject: Re: fuel inj parts from MSD DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@xxx.edu wrote: > >I just received a flyer from MSD on fuel management products. > >It has some nice stuff, EGO, TEMP, Pumps, regulators, and some tech > >notes including drawings of the injector and pocket hole dimensions. > > > Robert, > Yes please! sounds interesting. Presumably these MSD guys are in the US? How > can they be contacted? do they have e-mail? > Thanks > Richard MSD info: Web: http://www.msdignition.com/1msdign.htm Email: msdtech@xxx.com Phone(tech support) (915) 855-7123 MSD is located in ElPaso, TX, USA. Greg Woods gwoods@xxx.com austin, TX 86XJ, TBI ------------------------------ From: Johnny Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 07:00:33 -0700 Subject: Re: Leak down testing (not strictly EFI related) sam2@xxx.us wrote: > > >Typically, you would use 80psi on the supply side. In aviation, again > >typically, when the cylinder gets down below 60psi, it won't pass. In > > You mean you can't use 60psi? How do you hold the piston at top dead center > at 80psi? What I meant was, with the supply side guage reading 80psi, the other gauge shouldn't read below 60psi, but your milage will vary. To keep it at TDC, you get it centered really well first, and then hang on like hell to the prop to keep it from starting to go one way or the other. Usually, I rest the prop blade on my shoulder, or get someone to help while I read the guage. In a car you put a breaker bar on the crank bolt and brace it against the floor or the frame or whatever you can. The key is to get the piston really centered on top first. Let the 0 angle of the con rod help you out. - -j- ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:50:30 -0400 Subject: Promised supercharger information My apologies for bulk-mailing the three lists. I had promised someone a copy of a "supercharged/Turbo" Theory article, however I lost this person's email/snailmail address. As embarrased as I am, I'd like to fulfill my promise :) Thanks, Fred ------------------------------ From: mcosta@xxx.com Date: Wed, 16 Jul 97 10:08:27 EST Subject: Engine Control IC'S Does anyone know of manufactures of IC's like electromotive's HREIC or the IC that the DIY_EFI page has the 55 page postscript spec sheet on i.e Silicon systems 67f687 engine interface peripheral. Neither of these products is available. Electromotive will not sell their IC, and the one from silicon systems is actually made by tdk and is no longer produced. If anyone has info on where I can find either on of these IC's or something similar to them, I would greatly appreciate the help. Thanks In Advance MIKE COSTA ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (Tom Cloud) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 10:02:22 -0500 Subject: Re: 700R4 ratios >> yeah, but a '93 Continental doesn't weigh 5600 pounds dry, >> like my '95 'burban with TBI and it probably doesn't have >> a 350 CID engine. I'm running 16" tires and 3.73 rear end. >> It's 4WD also. I record every drop of petrol that goes into >> it and after 40,000 miles, many on good highway runs, I'd >> love to know how to get 15 mpg >> > >My 88 Chevy fullsize p/u has the same gears and really tall tires. I get >17 or better on the highway -- have sen 22 - and 12 to 15 around town. we're probably straying slightly from the forum content, but 5600 pounds weighs more than your pu loaded to its max (assuming it's a 1/2 ton) -- 4000# + 1000# = 5000#. Imagine what mpg you'd get if you drove it fully loaded ** all the time ** ..... and then add 600 more pounds, plus occupants ... and other paraphernalia -- up to another 1/2 ton [the 'burban weighs 5600# ... dry, no fuel, no occupants, no nothing -- not even floor mats ;-) ] Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: A70Duster@xxx.com Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:30:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Air mass sensor Somebody had some AMS for sale (GM 5.7 TPI flavored). Who was that? Thanks for the help. See ya, Mike ------------------------------ From: Rich Mauruschat Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:40:39 +0100 Subject: Re: Engine Control IC'S At 10:08 16/07/97 EST, you wrote: > > > > Does anyone know of manufactures of IC's like electromotive's HREIC or > the IC that the DIY_EFI page has the 55 page postscript spec sheet on > i.e Silicon systems 67f687 engine interface peripheral. Neither of > these products is available. Electromotive will not sell their IC, and > the one from silicon systems is actually made by tdk and is no longer > produced. If anyone has info on where I can find either on of these > IC's or something similar to them, I would greatly appreciate the > help. > > Thanks In Advance > > MIKE COSTA > Mike, I have used the 67f687 in my project, I started it at the time this chip was released (actually have engineering sample silicon!) and tried recently to bottom out the availability (or lack of) rumours. Long story, spoke to UK represenative for SSI/TDK and SSI factory, bottom line - now finished production. BUT.... I have it from the horses mouth that there is still die stock at the factory in the US. If someone is enterprising or brave? enough to commit to ordering a reasonable number (a few hundred I guess) I get the impression that these brill devices are technically still available but I couldn't get any idea of cost. If anyone fancies a go, I can supply a contact at the factory. This is the situation as of last week. GOOD LUCK! Richard ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (Tom Cloud) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:27:39 -0500 Subject: RE: Leak down testing (not strictly EFI related) > >>R.e. Leak down testing. > >>What units is leakdown typically measured in? > >In theory leakdown is in percentage leakage. However, >typical gauges vary a lot from gauge to gauge so you >need to be familiar with the gauge you are using. I have >heard that there are some gauges used for leakdown >testing of aircraft engines that are much better than the >automotive ones, but I have no experience with them. > >>What are some example good and bad numbers? > >Race engines: >10% >Street engines: >50% (obviously it depends on how > much you care.) >Most of the time what you are looking for is cylinder >to cylinder discrepancies. Whether the engine is cold >or hot can also have big effects. Some engines only >seal well when fully warm. > >>And what pressure does the cylinder get pressured >>to? > >The gauge manufacturer usually specifies a line pressure >for the cylinder. It is usually less than 100psi. I'd think the "measurement" would be in percent of charge lost per unit time, though the volume of the chamber being pressurized would have to be taken into account to be able to make comparison Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (Tom Cloud) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:27:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Fuel pressure guage isolator >What I am in need of is a device I can plumb into the >fuel rail, and hook a standard oil or air pressure >guage to the other side, so that fuel can never >get into to cabin, even if the feeder hose is cut. > >Has anybody made one of these, and if so, how? > >Alternatively, would your average electric oil pressure >sender unit survive the nasties of high octane unleaded? look in the Summit or Jegs catalog -- they sell isolators. also check out the pressure transducers in the Digi-Key catalog (p. 454 in May-June). The Measurement Specialties SS xducer costs ~ $85 and will work, but you're going to have to have some electronics (i.e. op-amp signal conditioning) to make it work Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (Tom Cloud) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:34:34 -0500 Subject: Re: fuel inj parts from MSD >Yes please! sounds interesting. Presumably these MSD guys are in the US? How >can they be contacted? do they have e-mail? try Todd Ryden Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: "Robert J. Korn" Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:07:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: fuel inj parts from MSD > > > -> The most useful tool I saw was a modified drill bit that could cut > -> the pocket hole for an injector with the correct shape and dimensions > -> in one shot. > > Yes. They want $166 for that drill bit. > If you do a lot of work that might pay off but for me I'm happy with their detailed cross section of the pocket with proper angles and radius' marked ! I plan on making a few this weekend on my lathe. Should be able to do it for free since I have a scrap piece of aluminum rod lying around...... Have to admit that I hardly ever buy from these catalogs. I just use the info to make my own parts. On a side note, all the injectors under 25lb/hr that I've seen so far are saturated type 12 or 16 ohms. Just been wasting my time with peak and hold driver chips. The smallest so far is 19lb/hr. Does anybody have a recomendation for a smaller injector ? I have to check my sister's geo metro book for its flow rate. This might be a source of parts to swap into a motorcycle application. ------------------------------ From: mcosta@xxx.com Date: Wed, 16 Jul 97 13:07:20 EST Subject: Re[2]: Engine Control IC'S richard, please ,please give me the number of the factory contact I need some of these IC's. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Engine Control IC'S Author: diy_efi@xxx.edu at INTERNET Date: 7/16/97 12:55 PM At 10:08 16/07/97 EST, you wrote: > > > > Does anyone know of manufactures of IC's like electromotive's HREIC or > the IC that the DIY_EFI page has the 55 page postscript spec sheet on > i.e Silicon systems 67f687 engine interface peripheral. Neither of > these products is available. Electromotive will not sell their IC, and > the one from silicon systems is actually made by tdk and is no longer > produced. If anyone has info on where I can find either on of these > IC's or something similar to them, I would greatly appreciate the > help. > > Thanks In Advance > > MIKE COSTA > Mike, I have used the 67f687 in my project, I started it at the time this chip was released (actually have engineering sample silicon!) and tried recently to bottom out the availability (or lack of) rumours. Long story, spoke to UK represenative for SSI/TDK and SSI factory, bottom line - now finished production. BUT.... I have it from the horses mouth that there is still die stock at the factory in the US. If someone is enterprising or brave? enough to commit to ordering a reasonable number (a few hundred I guess) I get the impression that these brill devices are technically still available but I couldn't get any idea of cost. If anyone fancies a go, I can supply a contact at the factory. This is the situation as of last week. GOOD LUCK! Richard ------------------------------ From: scicior@xxx.com (Steve Ciciora) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:21:46 -0600 Subject: Small injectors (was Re: fuel inj parts from MSD) > On a side note, all the injectors under 25lb/hr that I've seen so far > are saturated type 12 or 16 ohms. Just been wasting my time with > peak and hold driver chips. The smallest so far is 19lb/hr. > > Does anybody have a recomendation for a smaller injector ? > > I have to check my sister's geo metro book for its flow rate. This > might be a source of parts to swap into a motorcycle application. Let us know what you find out. A few years ago when I wanted to fuel inject my lawnmower (3.5 HP briggs and stratton, single cyl) I called BMWs of Denver. I think they wanted $150 each for an injector off a K75S (what my brother had at the time). Called the DUMP (Denver Used Motorcycle Parts) and they wanted about half that for a used injector. Still might be fun to inject a lawnmower if I could get a cheap injector... :-) Steven Ciciora ------------------------------ From: Ed or Jose Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 07:43:17 -0700 Subject: Re: [all] ProJection DFI for sale Speaking of Pro-Jection, has anybody used this systen on a 4-cylinder? I've posted such a question to Holley's discussion board with no answer. - -Ed ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (Tom Cloud) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 19:35:29 -0500 Subject: Re: [all] ProJection DFI for sale >Speaking of Pro-Jection, has anybody used this systen on a 4-cylinder? >I've posted such a question to Holley's discussion board with no answer. > >-Ed So, Ed or Jose, glad you're here, 'cause maybe you can he'p me with something's that's been bothering me If you threaten to kill yourselves, is it considered a hostage situation ?? re your (either one of you 8^) question about the 4 cyl, I don't remember anything in the literature on my Projection about it. I've not checked to be certain (i.e. no 'scope), but it certainly sounds like the injectors are fired directly in sync with the ignition pulses -- and if so, one could think it might work okay with 4-cyl as the fuel delivery rate would be tied directly to the number of cylinders, the rpm and the tps (I don't have the digital ProJection) Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (Tom Cloud) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:24:44 -0500 Subject: an eec plan what do most of us (with Fords) want? For myself, I'd like to be able to fiddle with all the things I used to be able to do when it was carbs and points. Actually, it's more fun now -- if one could get to the software and knew what the hardware was. I propose: - a "generic" eec replacement .... one that plugs onto the cable and takes inputs and gives outputs ... one where the software is public domain (sorta like the efi-332 project) - I propose that it is most logically a modified eec-iv that will accomplish this end advantages: - you could do what I said above -- and get as sophisticated as you wanted - if the software was public domain, the knowledge would spread beyond our group(s) and the sophistication of performance freeks, in general, would go up -- and that's a good thing, though there will be whineys that will worry about so much knowledge in the hands of "hot-rodders" - we'll actually finally be free to experiment and perfect our vehicles like we want to -- and not be limited by someone else's contraption -- no matter how well thought out -- that will never quite do exactly what "I" want it to (plus I'll only have myself to blame when it doesn't work ;-) disadvantages: - replacement eec's will become very scarce 8^) - lotsa work to pull this together, including finding out how all the little gizmos in different years and models work so the software can be made to read them and so the hardware can drive them - probably a major software project ?? (there's lots of knowledge out there already) consider that, IMHO, probably 80% of the code in the eec-iv is unrelated to making your car "GO" -- it's probably related to the "adaptive learning" (darn, *I* do that now) and diagnostic features (and who knows what else) of the eec. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have all those things, but they're not necessary. To get yourself way up the curve of diminishing returns, all you really need is sensors for rpm, tps and MAP. Then you need fuel maps or some other way of modifying the fuel flow for specific engine and hop-up configurations. That's just the software. Obviously, the hardware would be more difficult -- but we've already got an eec-iv. Now if only we could know about the hardware in it and how to program it ??? - assuming that the hardware in the eec-iv is similar enough across all models that we can find one or several that will work for most applications (that could be a daunting task in itself) we'd have to have basic code that'd run the vehicle in at least a basic mode until refinements could be made -- but consider that even a MAF vehicle could have a SD program in it that just ignored the MAF (the only serious problem I see with this would be puffers) miscellaneous thoughts: - All I'm saying is that, given reasonable objectives, I think we can crack the eec-iv and put our own code into it and have a resultant that is superior to, and far less expensive than, any aftermarket system (I'm not talking about engine mods like heads and cams and stuff -- you'd have to do those with any other system you bought). - This is possible using the GM controller (there's lots of data on it and people who've already put it onto Ford products, replacing the eec-iv -- and one I know of (on diy-efi ... George, it's you, isn't it?) that swears by this method) - heck, something like the efi-332 project controller could be made to work - using a different controller would require either cutting the connector off the harness or splicing into it or finding a source for the eec connector - a major point that would determine the feasability of using the eec-iv as the workbench for this is - do all eec-iv's ( regardless of the model) use the same, or similar, pinouts - how do different options (like MAF, etc) fit into the connection scheme - how much variability is there in various sensors ( like MAP, temp, tps, rpm pickoff, MAF, etc) and actuators (like injectors and throttle bypass, etc) ... can a single eec or other controller be reasonably expected to read the inputs and control the outputs of the diverse range of years and models and options that exist in the Ford line ?? Now that I've posted the op-codes for the 8061/3 and there's an assembler written, we can begin to get to work. Also, remember that I've posted a collection of technical data on the eec (and I've got a greatly revised and better version that I've not had the time to finish that is "imminent" -- that's what I said 6 months or so ago) A great help would be if some of the people who've pioneered in this area, like Mike W. and others, would share a little more (Mike's already shared a bunch) -- e.g. about the questions I raise above (and, in particular, about the configuration of the hardware, like the VLSI, and variations, etc on the eec and in external hardware). - how different -- or similar -- are the various eec hardware configurations ?? - is it unreasonable to expect to find one (or several) eec's that could be programmed to accept data from a variety of versions of sensors and to output to the same variety ? We need a FAQ on the eec's and on the various sensors and actuators. We will need a FAQ on software drivers that do various functions Also, some of the members of these lists work for Ford. If you know how we can ask corporate for help to accomplish this, I think it'd help Ford, not hurt them. We're not interested in pirating their code (though it is in the boxes we own), but in playing with our expensive toys we bought from them. I need your help to get this going .... anyone ? ================================================ THE END ================================================ P.S. I'm not on fordnatics or any Mustang, Mercur, Lightning, T-Bird, etc list -- only BigBroncos, eec-iv and diy-efi, so if some of you, who are on those lists, would spread this around, maybe we can get some action. FYI -- to join the eec-iv list (an unofficial subset of diy-efi) =============== Subscription info is on the eec-iv web page at: http://eelink.umich.edu:80/~p-nowak/eec-efi/ or e-mail the list admin, Paul Nowak, directly at Paul Nowak =============== for eec-iv info, check out: http://www.iaw.com/~aubertin/88mgt/eec-iv/eec-iv.htm http://204.255.212.10/~jthorsse/eectest.html Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: Greg Lowe Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:06:29 -0400 Subject: 60 Pin Connector Group Buy It seems that a lot of people have been interested in getting the 60 pin connector like the one on the EEC-IV. I would like to sponser a group buy of this connector. I looked on the sponsor page but could find no way to enter this part. If anyone would be interested in this, or the harness, connector please let me know. Regards, Greg Lowe The Informer: http://www.intercall.net/~gendev/informer ------------------------------ From: "The other G Man!" Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 22:51:48 -0500 Subject: Re: an eec plan Tom Cloud wrote: > > what do most of us (with Fords) want? > > For myself, I'd like to be able to fiddle with all the > things I used to be able to do when it was carbs and > points. Actually, it's more fun now -- if one could > get to the software and knew what the hardware was. > Does anyone know the min and max values returned from sensors in terms of voltage? ------------------------------ From: Rich Mauruschat Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 08:55:36 +0100 Subject: Re: Fuel pressure guage isolator At 11:27 16/07/97 -0500, you wrote: >>What I am in need of is a device I can plumb into the >>fuel rail, and hook a standard oil or air pressure >>guage to the other side, so that fuel can never >>get into to cabin, even if the feeder hose is cut. >> >>Has anybody made one of these, and if so, how? >> >>Alternatively, would your average electric oil pressure >>sender unit survive the nasties of high octane unleaded? > >look in the Summit or Jegs catalog -- they sell isolators. > >also check out the pressure transducers in the Digi-Key >catalog (p. 454 in May-June). The Measurement Specialties >SS xducer costs ~ $85 and will work, but you're going to >have to have some electronics (i.e. op-amp signal >conditioning) to make it work > >Tom Cloud > Beware if using semicondutor type transducers (ie no stainless interface diaphragm), they often do not take kindly to being exposed to liquid petrol, the sensing element is often only protected by a silicone gel barrier. Sometimes you can get away with it - worth bearing in mind though. Richard ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #241 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".