DIY_EFI Digest Saturday, 19 July 1997 Volume 02 : Number 243 In this issue: Re[2]: 68HC11 EFI Re: 700R4 ratios Re: Fiat woes Re: Fiat woes Aftermarket stand-alone systems Re[2]: Programming language hc11 EFI code Hi Hi Re: an eec plan Re: hc11 EFI code Re: Aftermarket stand-alone systems Injector driver board- bosch and siemens injectors Bosch Injector Data? See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mcosta@xxx.com Date: Fri, 18 Jul 97 08:53:41 EST Subject: Re[2]: 68HC11 EFI Fred And Jim, I as well am working on an hc11 efi system. I have plenty of hardware and software experince to make this happen, but not so much the algorithm side of things. I have some sample code people have sent me and am working getting the silicon systems engine interface peripheral to interface to an hc11 to cut down on the amount of work I need to do. Keep in touch and let me know if I can be of help. mike costa mcosta@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.com (dzorde) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 07:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: 700R4 ratios Well, my 350 TPI Monaro (roughly 4000lbs) gets 13mpg in the city and 28mpg in the country. On the race track (as I found out last Saturday, circuit racing), the milage dropped to just under 4mpg. Quite a wide range I think. This car is running 14" 265/50 tyres, with 3.08 rear end and Toyota Supra 5 speed, timing is 4deg BTDC on 100 octane leaded to stop pinging (at 7deg BTDC it will ping). I don't feel so bad now about the economy after reading what others get. Dan dzorde@xxx.com >Hi George > >It is a 4200 Lbs 85 GMC PU 2whl drive with >3.08 P235/15 mich radials..and yep the >gas mileage stays at 20MPG now that is imperial .. > >Make sure your knock sensor works.. Ie don't carry it >too far..With the stock chev cam this is prob too >much advance, with the performer cam it is ok.. > >Everything is kinda complicated.. > >Ps you guys who use the #165 ECM with TPI should be >giving STEVE at TTS a call. >His package would be ideal for this.. > >CYall:peter > >Ps does anyone know how to use a ASTRA scanner. gRRRRRRR > >At 06:43 PM 7/17/97 -0500, you wrote: >>Well, it seems as if the EFI SBC delivers a wide range of fuel economy 12 - >>25mpg. I like Peter F's milage, so I'm going to adjust the timing to 14 >>deg,. BTDC. What is the provable milage that the '89 TPI cars could >>routinely achieve? BTW Pete, what's your tire size and gear ratio? It may be >>time for me to change. >> >>Tom C. asked, "did the mpg drop occur suddenly or gradually ?? remember that >>a worn engine is less efficient and will get less mpg as >>it ages" >> >>It dropped right after I replaced my 350HT with the 700R4. No other changes >>period. No new big boned gilfriend, no doubble rations of food. >> >>It's strange that some people get 20mpg routine and others think "Not even >>the factory >>thinks they get 15MPG city/ 24 MPG highway." I have noticed that those that >>get the high milage swear by it as do those with the gas hoggs. The truth is >>an elusive quarry! Could the differences be due to just a few small things >>like a highly tuned EFI system? Back when I ran carbs, everybody got 8mpg >>city and 12 highway with a SBC and that's all I have to say about that. >> >>Thanks for the input gentlemen, I'll let you know what the timing does. >> >>GMD >> >> >>At 10:02 AM 7/16/97 -0500, you wrote: >>> >>>>> yeah, but a '93 Continental doesn't weigh 5600 pounds dry, >>>>> like my '95 'burban with TBI and it probably doesn't have >>>>> a 350 CID engine. I'm running 16" tires and 3.73 rear end. >>>>> It's 4WD also. I record every drop of petrol that goes into >>>>> it and after 40,000 miles, many on good highway runs, I'd >>>>> love to know how to get 15 mpg >>>>> >>>> >>>>My 88 Chevy fullsize p/u has the same gears and really tall tires. I get >>>>17 or better on the highway -- have sen 22 - and 12 to 15 around town. >>> >>>we're probably straying slightly from the forum content, >>>but 5600 pounds weighs more than your pu loaded to its >>>max (assuming it's a 1/2 ton) -- 4000# + 1000# = 5000#. >>>Imagine what mpg you'd get if you drove it fully loaded >>> ** all the time ** ..... and then add 600 more pounds, >>>plus occupants ... and other paraphernalia -- up to another >>>1/2 ton [the 'burban weighs 5600# ... dry, no fuel, no >>>occupants, no nothing -- not even floor mats ;-) ] >>> >>>Tom Cloud >>> >>> >>George M. Dailey >>gmd@xxx.com >> >> > > ------------------------------ From: Chief Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:15:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Fiat woes At 06:09 PM 7/12/97 +1000, you wrote: >Hi Fiat owner (My deepest sympathy to you and your family Sir) > >Have you looked at your fuel filter yet? > >regards > >alex > >Non-fiat owner Yes, new fuel filter. Key on fuel pressure 40 psi, idle about 30 psi. Ed Hilker aka "Chief" 84'SS - 700R4 ------------------------------ From: Chief Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:15:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Fiat woes At 06:09 PM 7/12/97 +1000, you wrote: >Hi Fiat owner (My deepest sympathy to you and your family Sir) > >Have you looked at your fuel filter yet? > >regards > >alex > >Non-fiat owner Yes, new fuel filter. Key on fuel pressure is 40 psi. Idle pressure is 30 psi. Ed Hilker aka "Chief" 84'SS - 700R4 ------------------------------ From: Michael McBroom Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:00:05 -0700 Subject: Aftermarket stand-alone systems My project vehicle (a Volvo w/B230FT engine) uses a Bosch LH-Jetronic system for fuel management and a Bosch electronic ignition system, both of which are adequate for stock applications and mild performance tuning. I have already stretched the above packages to their limits, though, and will need to step up to a stand-alone system that will give me the room I need for future expansion and tuning requirements. I've been reading up a bit on a several stand-alone efi/ignition systems, such as Electromotive's TEC-II, Accel's DFI, Haltech, and Motec. Of all these, I only have relatively complete information on the TEC-II. To install it, though, I'd have to replace most of the existing Bosch sensors with GM ones and I don't want to do that. I would prefer to find a stand-alone system that will adapt itself to the Bosch equipment already in place. Based on what I've been able to determine so far, it appears that Haltech may be the way to go for my application. I'm wondering, though, if one of the others might also be a viable option? I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who has replaced a Bosch pulsed efi & electronic ignition system with a stand-alone one. - -- Best, Michael McBroom '87 745T 123k w/APC (batoutahell!) '88 765T 154k _________________________________________________________________________ Graduate Student, Linguistics Author of Research Interest: Biological Origins =McBroom's Camera Bluebook= of Language http://mcbrooms.com California State University, Fullerton _________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: Terry Sare Date: 18 Jul 97 12:52 CDT Subject: Re[2]: Programming language - --> NOT subject to the frustrations of the VERY regimented structure of - --> the other high level languages; but, much of that structure is - --> available should you desire it. [snip] - ->Just like a mechanic has more than one wrench, a programmer should be - ->able to handle more than one language. In many cases, the language - ->itself is secondary to the specific *implementation* of the language, I have used various languages over the years and I have to agree with Dave, it is a matter of best fit for the project than which language is better. I prefer C but will use assembly, basic, etc. if that is a better fit. Little programming humor - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Instructions for "Shooting Yourself in the Foot" in various computer languages and systems/interfaces ============================================================================ C: You shoot yourself in the foot. C++: You accidentally create a dozen instances of yourself and shoot them all in the foot. Providing emergency medical assistance is impossible since you can't tell which are bitwise copies and which are just pointing at others and saying, "That's me, over there." FORTRAN: You shoot yourself in each toe, iteratively, until you run out of toes; then you read in the next foot and repeat. If you run out of bullets, you continue anyway because you have no exception-handling routine. Modula-2: After realizing that you can't acutally accomplish anything in this language, you shoot yourself in the head. LISP: You shoot yourself in the appendage which holds the gun with which you shoot yourself in the appendage which holds the gun with which youshoot yourself in the appendage which holds... COBOL: USEing a COLT 45 HANDGUN, AIM gun at LEG.Foot, THEN place ARM.HAND.FINGER on HANDGUN.TRIGGER and SQUEEZE. THEN return HANGUN to HOLSTER. CHECK whether shoelace needs to be retied. BASIC: Shoot yourself in the foot with water pistol. On big systems, continue until entire lower body is waterlogged. Virtual BASIC: You'll shoot yourself in the foot, but you'll have so much fun doing it that you won't care. FORTH: Foot in yourself shoot. APL: You shoot yourself in the foot; then spend all day figuring out how to do it in fewer characters. Pascal: The compiler won't let you shoot yourself in the foot. HyperTalk Put the first bullet of the gun into foot left of leg of you. Answer the result. UNIX: % ls foot.c foot.h foot.o toe.c toe.o %rm *.o rm: .O: No such file or directory % ls % Paradox: Not only can you shoot yourself in foot, your users can, too. Motif: You spend days writing a UIL description of your foot, the trajectory, the bullet, and the intricate scrollwork on the ivory handles of the gun. When you finally get around to pulling the trigger, the gun jams. Apple System 7: Double click the gun icon and a window giving a selection for guns, target areas, plus ballon help with medical remedies, and assorted sound effects. Click shoot button and small bomb appears with note "Error of type 1 has occurred." DOS (all versions): You finally found the gun, but can't locate the file with the foot for the life of you. -------- (Additional languages/interfaces found later) --------- Ada: If you are dumb enough to actually use this language, the United States Department of Defense will kidnap you, stand you up in front of a firing squad, and tell the soldiers, "Shoot at his feet." Algol: You shoot yourself in the foot with a musket. The musket is aesthetically fascinating, and the wound baffles the adolescent medic in the emergency room. APL (alternate): You hear a gunshot, and there's a hole in your foot, but you don't remember enough linear algebra to understand what happened. Assembly: You crash the OS and overwrite the root disk. The system administrator arrives and shoots you in the foot. After a moment of contemplation, the administrator shoots himself in the foot and then hops around the room rabidly shooting at everyone in sight. DBase: You squeeze the trigger, but the bullet moves so slowly that by the time your foot feels the pain you've forgotten why you shot yourself anyway. DBase IV version 1.0: You pull the trigger, but it turns out that the gun was a poorly-designed grenade and the whole building blows up. sh, csh, etc.: You can't remember the syntax for anything, so you spend five hours reading man pages before giving up. You then shoot the computer and switch to C. Smalltalk: You spend so much time playing with the graphics and windowing system that your boss shoots you in the foot, takes away your workstation, and makes you develop in COBOL on a character terminal. PL/I: You consume all available system resources, including all the offline bullets. The DataProcessing&Payroll Department doubles its size, triples its budget, acquires four new mainframes, and drops the original one on your foot. Prolog: You attempt to shoot yourself in the foot, but the bullet, failing to find its mark, backtracks to the gun which then explodes in your face. SNOBOL: You grab your foot with your hand, then rewrite your hand to be a bullet. The act of shooting the original foot then changes your hand/bullet into yet another foot (a left foot). scheme: You shoot yourself in the appendage which holds the gun with which you shoot yourself in the appendage which holds the gun with which you shoot yourself in the appendage which holds the gun with which you shoot yourself in the appendage which holds... ...but none of the other appendages are aware of this happening. English: You put your foot in your mouth, then bite it off. CLIPPER: You grab a bullet, get ready to insert it in the gun so that you can shoot yourself in the foot, and discover that the gun that the bullet fits has not yet been built, but should be arriving in the mail _REAL_SOON_NOW_. SQL: You cut your foot off, send it out to a service bureau and when it returns, it has a hole in it, but will no longer fit the attachment at the end of your leg. ------------------------------ From: James Boughton Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:33:46 -0400 Subject: hc11 EFI code Peter, Does the C EFI code you placed on the list actually run an engine? Can you give any other details about it? TIA Jim Boughton boughton@xxx.net ------------------------------ From: volvo.v70@xxx.net Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:34:11 Subject: Hi I'm new.. Just testing.. ------------------------------ From: volvo.v70@xxx.net Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:10:11 Subject: Hi I'm new just testing... ------------------------------ From: Joe Boucher Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:08:07 -0500 Subject: Re: an eec plan > > > > What about replacing the 8061 and proprietary EPROM with a 68332 and flash? > We can eliminate all of the uncertainty of the 8061, and are only left with > reverse engineering the analog stuff (and writing EFI code, of course). > This might be a more reasonable course of action, and avoid all the nasty > copyright issues. > > I have heard of this being done to as least one EEC (please don't bug me > for details ... I can't provide them). > Allow me to reword what you said. Somebody took an Original Equipment Manufacturer (GM or Ford) fuel injector computer, yanked out the processor, reverse engineered the analog circuits, put in another processor and some form of eprom or eeprom chip with the program and injector map? If so, cool. Joe ("You go first") Boucher '70 Camaro '81 TBI Suburban Bedford, TX ------------------------------ From: peter paul fenske Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:43:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: hc11 EFI code Hi Jim The code is HC11 asm. Not C. Yes it runs a motor. Barely. It was my first foray. NOP the section that talks to the PC and it will run a lot better.. Of course you still have to build the io drivers.. Actually now I have reverse engineered GM so much this seems a little primitive. Still it is much like ACCEL is using so it should work.. GL:peter At 02:33 PM 7/18/97 -0400, you wrote: >Peter, > Does the C EFI code you placed on the >list actually run an engine? Can you give any >other details about it? > >TIA >Jim Boughton >boughton@xxx.net > > ------------------------------ From: "Allan Hines" Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 13:03:17 +1000 Subject: Re: Aftermarket stand-alone systems I have been involved with all the systems you mentioned and the Motec M4 would be the best choice if your budget allows. It will accept all the Bosch sensors including the standard crank trigger and can drive any injector you care to use. The Motec will allow you to modify your engine right through to outright race specifications. I found that the Motec software is the easiest to use and by far the most comprehensive. ( you can get a demo version of M4 software at http://www.motec.com ). For more information on Motec check out these sites: http://www.motec.com http://www.motec.com.au Regards, Allan Hines - ---------- > From: Michael McBroom > To: diy_efi > Subject: Aftermarket stand-alone systems > Date: Saturday, 19 July 1997 3:00 AM > > My project vehicle (a Volvo w/B230FT engine) uses a Bosch LH-Jetronic > system for fuel management and a Bosch electronic ignition system, both > of which are adequate for stock applications and mild performance > tuning. I have already stretched the above packages to their limits, > though, and will need to step up to a stand-alone system that will give > me the room I need for future expansion and tuning requirements. > > I've been reading up a bit on a several stand-alone efi/ignition > systems, such as Electromotive's TEC-II, Accel's DFI, Haltech, and > Motec. Of all these, I only have relatively complete information on the > TEC-II. To install it, though, I'd have to replace most of the existing > Bosch sensors with GM ones and I don't want to do that. I would prefer > to find a stand-alone system that will adapt itself to the Bosch > equipment already in place. Based on what I've been able to determine > so far, it appears that Haltech may be the way to go for my > application. I'm wondering, though, if one of the others might also be > a viable option? I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who has replaced a > Bosch pulsed efi & electronic ignition system with a stand-alone one. > > -- > Best, > > Michael McBroom > > '87 745T 123k w/APC (batoutahell!) > '88 765T 154k > _________________________________________________________________________ > > Graduate Student, Linguistics Author of > Research Interest: Biological Origins =McBroom's Camera Bluebook= > of Language http://mcbrooms.com > California State University, Fullerton > _________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: Seth Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Injector driver board- bosch and siemens injectors Hello all- First of all, I want to thank everyone out there for my help with this project ( the staged injection for a VW golf using a 68HC11F1) without your help, I would never have tried. I tested the injector driver board today. Using a National Semiconductor LM 1940 voltage regulator and LM1949 injector drivers. I set the timer to 1.5 ms with a 15k resistor and a .1uf cap. Tried 0.09, .18 and .47 ohm resistors for the sensing. I tried this with chrysler injectors- two styles which are bosch and siemens. Bosch are 280155703 12.3 ohm, like the siemens/deka which is a 4612402. The bosch goes in an early (pre- production) neon, I can't imagine they changed injectors, but who knows? The siemens deka comes from a 1995 or 1996 3.3liter grand voyager SE van. Canadian spec, I think. With the 0.47 ohm resistor, i got the 4:1 difference in injector current from peak to hold for both injectors. I didn't with the 0.18 and 0.09 ohm resistance. The .18 ohm had about a 2:1 current difference. The 0.09 sense resistor wound up running the injectors saturated. ( I think) In a discussion with my electronics prof. ( he was helping me) he seemed to think that a notch in the initial voltage rise was the beginning of injector motion. By varying the pulse width to the injector, we determined audibly that the injector didn't open if this point (typically 1.08 to 1.2ms, and about 550 ma) wasn't crossed. We figured that the opening current for both the injectors was about 550 ma, the Bosch opened about 0.1 ms faster. Perhaps the pintle is smaller with less inertia? I don't know. At this point without actually observing fluid out of the injectors, we canot be absolutely sure that the injectors are holding open after the initial opening surge. By dialing the duty cycle up to 96-99% the injectors became quiet ( and the scope was showing some high voltages) below 13% duty cycle at 100.0 Hz ( ~1.3 ms pulse) they were quiet. I can only assume that they were "holding". My question- does anyone have a definitive bench test for injector that doesnt involve flowing fuel thru the injector? Thanks, Seth Allen (graduating soon (again) and looking for an automotive job) ------------------------------ From: Michael McBroom Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:50:31 -0700 Subject: Bosch Injector Data? Hi folks, I'm looking for the data for the following Bosch injector: 0 280 150 151 If you happen to have it on one of your lists, I'd sure appreciate the info. Which leads me to ask, does anybody know if the complete Bosch microfiche is posted anywhere on the 'net? - -- Best, Michael McBroom '87 745T 123k w/APC (batoutahell!) '88 765T 154k _________________________________________________________________________ Graduate Student, Linguistics Author of Research Interest: Biological Origins =McBroom's Camera Bluebook= of Language http://mcbrooms.com California State University, Fullerton _________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #243 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".