DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, 30 July 1997 Volume 02 : Number 254 In this issue: OBD-II Re: OBD-II Re: need a conversion FYI: Fel-Pro fuel injection system RE: OBD-II re: Knock sensors Re: Subscribing to list Re: The conversion Re: FYI: Fel-Pro fuel injection system (fwd) Re[2]: O2 sensor mounting Re: The conversion - so sorry presure regulator needed Re: FYI: Fel-Pro fuel injection system (fwd) Re: Re[2]: O2 sensor mounting Re: Subscribing to list Re: presure regulator needed Re: conversion Re: FYI: Fel-Pro fuel injection system Re: presure regulator needed See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Niclas Palmquist Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:12:02 +0200 Subject: OBD-II Hi there, I have some questions about the OBD-II system for BMW, and I hope some of You can help me. Are there any available and good place on Internet ? Where to find the failure codes, equipment to read the codes, information, etc. ? Or does any of You have any of this information to post ? Best regards Niclas Palmquist - --=20 ______ o/______\o _\|/_ (oo=3DOO=3Doo) (o-o) ______[]------[]______________________________oOOo-(_)-oOOo____________ Niclas Palmquist BMW Club Schweden #2024 Gothenburg, Sweden 320i Coup=E9 -93 URL: http://www4.tripnet.se/~niclas e-mail: niclas@xxx.se ------------------------------ From: "Mike Fahrion" Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:01:50 -600 Subject: Re: OBD-II The OBDII Bible is SAE's HS-3000 (1997), $79US. Available through SAE's home page at www.sae.org. I'd guess that the BMW uses ISO9141 type communications (one of the three "standards" allowed under OBDII) - contact CarComp (www.carcomp.com). They offer a ISO9141 to RS-232 product. If it uses J1850 VPW communications (I doubt it), contact me.... CarComp will be able to tell you if their tool will work on your car. The protocol and commands are (nearly) identical across the three types of communications, but the hardware varies drastically. I've got a bit of time invested in this OBDII thing, feel free to email me specific questions and I'll do what I can. Good Luck - -mike > Hi there, > > I have some questions about the OBD-II system for BMW, and I hope some > of You can help me. > > Are there any available and good place on Internet ? Where to find the > failure codes, equipment to read the codes, information, etc. ? > > Or does any of You have any of this information to post ? > > Best regards > > Niclas Palmquist - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Mike Fahrion mfahrion@xxx.com/ B&B Electronics Mfg Co ph.(815) 433-5100 ext.215 fax (815) 434-7094 707 Dayton Road PO Box 1040 Ottawa IL 61350 - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ From: sdelanty@xxx.net Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:37:47 -0700 Subject: Re: need a conversion > Can soemone please email me the conversion for air mass flow of x > grams per sec to volume flow of y cubic feet per minute? Thanks in > advance. Hugh Macinnes's book "turbochargers" gives the formula CFM * 0.069 = Lb/min This is corrected for an air temp of 85F and 28.4 in.Hg pressure. (density changes with temp and pressure) There's 453.6 grams per pound and 60 secs in a minute, so: 1 cfm * .069 * 453.6 = 31.298 grams/minute divide by 60 = 0.5216 grams/sec. so 1 CFM = 0.512 grams/sec or 1 gram/sec = 1.917 CFM (at 85F and 28.4 in.Hg....) Err, hope that's right... Happy motoring, Steve Delanty 1971 F100 shortbox, FE390, T-18 4-speed ------------------------------ From: Jody Shapiro Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:42:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FYI: Fel-Pro fuel injection system Some comments from the f-body list re: Fel-Pro's new system: From: Jon Shoberg FEL-PRO, of all things a gasket company, is currenty in the first phase of testing thier Digital Fuel Injection system. I really know nothing about except that the intial reviews are really good. I got this bit of info when I mentioned it to a Summit Racing Tech Support person, when we had a bit of a tuning session. From: Bob Quinn The Fel Pro system is first class. It basically picks up where Accel DFI leaves off and gives you even more control. The extra control it gives you is way beyond the needs of any street car though. A lot of it has to due with advanced injector pulsing. It would definitely be of use to someone like the guys who have done work on my car. (Jim D'lessandro (7.70 247 cubic inch GN and Craig Radovitch 7 second Mustang) But they told me that the Accel DFI system would be more than adequate for a car like mine. I only know of one person that has the system anyway because he got it before you couldn't get it anymore. Fel Pro is being sued by Accel and Electromotive, if not a few other people for copyright infringement. They aren't shipping anymore until it is resolved I guess. So don't hold your breath. - -Jody - -- 97 Blue Vortech Z28 - 13.100 @xxx.98 http://www.bit-net.com/~jshapiro/z28/ ------------------------------ From: "PeterS" Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:55:51 -0600 Subject: RE: OBD-II I too am looking at ODB-II for a BMW Z3 (97). I am in the process of putting together a VPW circuit based on the Harris chips. I'm surprised BWM would use the 9141 protocol, I would have expected either the VPW (10.4k) or the PMW (41.6k). I'll check out carcomp though to see what they have. Peter Shoebridge - -----Original Message----- From: Mike Fahrion [SMTP:mfahrion@xxx.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 2:02 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: OBD-II The OBDII Bible is SAE's HS-3000 (1997), $79US. Available through SAE's home page at www.sae.org. I'd guess that the BMW uses ISO9141 type communications (one of the three "standards" allowed under OBDII) - contact CarComp (www.carcomp.com). They offer a ISO9141 to RS-232 product. If it uses J1850 VPW communications (I doubt it), contact me.... CarComp will be able to tell you if their tool will work on your car. The protocol and commands are (nearly) identical across the three types of communications, but the hardware varies drastically. I've got a bit of time invested in this OBDII thing, feel free to email me specific questions and I'll do what I can. Good Luck - -mike > Hi there, > > I have some questions about the OBD-II system for BMW, and I hope some > of You can help me. > > Are there any available and good place on Internet ? Where to find the > failure codes, equipment to read the codes, information, etc. ? > > Or does any of You have any of this information to post ? > > Best regards > > Niclas Palmquist - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - -=-=- Mike Fahrion mfahrion@xxx.com http://www.bb-elec.com/ B&B Electronics Mfg Co ph.(815) 433-5100 ext.215 fax (815) 434-7094 707 Dayton Road PO Box 1040 Ottawa IL 61350 - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - -=-=- ------------------------------ From: "Robert W. Hughes" Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:08:39 -0700 Subject: re: Knock sensors The only knock sensor I have personally tested was for a 1986 Buick GN. I recorded several taps and digitized them with a sound board. The response was essentially white to above 10kc. Apparently the response tuning is done with filters in the electronics. I have also seen information that the knock frequencies peak in the 6-9kc band for most engines. The information on the Harris chip supports this also (broadband sensor and signal in the 6-9kc band). Things that hit the engine or rattle can cause false responses which is the reason for the elaborate filtering and two channel design of the Harris chip. Incidentally this GN sensor is convenient for testing various engines. It mounts with a 1/4 MPT stud so it can be used to replace a block drain plug. A decent cassette recorder can be used (with an attenuator - output is up to 5-6 volts PP for a tap and .1-.5 volt for normal running with the possibility of much more for things like rods hitting the block) to record the output, the sound board on your PC can digitize the recordings, and there are many FFT type programs available to see the results. - -- Robert W. Hughes (Bob) BackYard Engineering Houston, Texas ------------------------------ From: Johnny Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:41:39 -0700 Subject: Re: Subscribing to list William A Williams wrote: > > I was given this address for your list but was given no other > data. I would like to participate but have no better way to contact you. > Please excuse the intrusion. Tell me how to sign up please. > Bill in Boulder ---- "Engineering as an Art Form" ---- Send mail to: majordomo@xxx.edu In the body of the message put: subscribe diy_efi - -j- ------------------------------ From: sdelanty@xxx.net Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:47:59 -0700 Subject: Re: The conversion >Air is 78% Nitrogen and 21% Oxygen. > >The molecular weight of Nitrogen (diatomic molecule) is 28 g / mole. > >The molecular weight of Oxygen (also diatomic) is 32 g / mole. Hey, what's the grams/mole of the 1% Argon? (-: Sorry my education ain't good enough to follow all the grams/mole stuff but the bottom line caught my eye: >So divide the grams of air per second by 325 to convert to cubic feet of air >per minute. So 325 grams per second only equals 1CFM?? Doesn't that make a cubic foot of air weigh about 43 pounds????! >NOTE: With air flowing, this conversion will have a higher than actual >reading in cubic feet per minute. That ol' compressibility of air comes in >to smuck up everything. Thanks Bernoulli.... Hey, I remember Bernoulli.. He got all those gas laws passed so He could invent the carburetor, right?? Just think how different gas physics would be if He'd invented EFI first... (-; Happy motoring, Steve Delanty 1971 F100 shortbox, FE390, T-18 4-speed ------------------------------ From: Jody Shapiro Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:56:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: FYI: Fel-Pro fuel injection system (fwd) Here's a response I got from someone who works at FP Performance... Hope to see someone trying out the FP Performance system as it looks quite good... - -Jody - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Very interesting to see your post. Since I work for FP Performance (Fel-Pro), I can assure you that I am not aware of any lawsuits either pending or in progress. FP is in fact shipping units presently and the system is working out very well. The system FP offers is price competitive with the Accel systems and I believe the FP Performance system to be superior in quality, technology and performance. I'm sure Accel is not exactly pleased about the introduction of the FP system but I don't believe there is any legal coarse of action for them to take. You mentioned "copyright infringement". This implies that something was copied or duplicated. I can assure you that this isn't the case. ------------------------------ From: Mark Eidson Date: Tue, 29 Jul 97 11:04:00 PDT Subject: Re[2]: O2 sensor mounting Text item: FYI, I had the weld on boss welded to my cast iron exhaust manifold by my local machine shop. me ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: O2 sensor mounting Author: owner-diy_efi-outgoing@xxx.edu at SMTPGATE Date: 6/4/97 12:55 PM O2 sensors are 18 X 1.5 mm thread and use a crush washer like some spark plugs. You can buy a weld-on boss from Jeg's or Summit but it would have to go on the exhaust pipe itself and not the cast iron manifold. Mike M. ShadeTree Racing On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Ron Madurski wrote: > : > : > :I have an exhaust manifold that does not have a tapped hole > :for an O2 sensor but their is what looks to be like a spot > :that is tapped out when this manifold was used on FI type > :engines. > : > :Does anyone know what is involved in tapping an > :O2 sensor hole? I think I read somewhere that you can't just drill > :it and tap it with a normal tap because of sealing issues > :between the sensor and the manifold once the assembly gets > :up to temp. Has anyone done anything like this? > : > > I got a boss for the O2 sensor from a speed shop and had it welded in to > my existing header. > > :Any and all comments welcome! > :TIA > : > :Greg Woods > :gwoods@xxx.com > : > : > > > -- > Ron Madurski > rmadursk@xxx.com > Text item: External Message Header The following mail header is for administrative use and may be ignored unless there are problems. ***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***. Reply-To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Precedence: bulk Sender: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <199706041826.NAA25502@xxx.com> Subject: Re: O2 sensor mounting To: diy_efi@xxx.edu From: Michael Manry Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from u04201@xxx.6) id M AA15748; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:55:29 -0700 Received: from rainfall.mwd.dst.ca.us by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (9 40816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id QAA02366; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:02 :39 -0400 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id UAA02371; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 20:02:42 GMT Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu by thalia.fm.intel.com (8.8.4/10.0i); Wed, 4 Jun 1997 21:14:45 GMT Received: from thalia.fm.intel.com (thalia.fm.intel.com [132.233.247.11]) by chm ail.ch.intel.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA02429 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: owner-diy_efi-outgoing@xxx.edu ------------------------------ From: A70Duster@xxx.com Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:08:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: The conversion - so sorry So sorry, multiply g/sec by 1.79 to get CFM. I try to do reality checks myself but I don't always function well at 2:00 in the morning. See ya, Mike ------------------------------ From: James Weiler Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: presure regulator needed Hi Can anyone recomend a fuel presure regulator? It's got to work with a home made intake. I'm using D-section aluminum fuel rail so the regulator can either plug in via an O-ring or attach through a threaded fitting, I don't have a prefrence. My local speed shop has an adjustable Bosch for $150 Can ($100US). It doesn't need to be adjustable but it must make 45 psi (3 bar), which is the standard Ford rating. The Bosch item sounds a tad expensive. Is this price out of line ? thanks guys jw ------------------------------ From: "Robert E. Yorke" Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:54:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: FYI: Fel-Pro fuel injection system (fwd) Jody: I read this post with interest; I've been trying to connect with Tom Jenkins of FP Performance all day to try to buy the EFI (They call it the "SEFI8LO Engine Management System"), but we seem to be playing what appears to be an endless game of phone tag. Can you provide me with the name and e-mail of the person who responded to you? Maybe if I can get directly to someone at FP Performance, I can finally order the thing....Tom Jenkins is apparently moving around so much that it's quite difficult to get to him. At 01:56 PM 7/29/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Here's a response I got from someone who works at FP Performance... > >Hope to see someone trying out the FP Performance system as it looks >quite good... >-Jody > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Very interesting to see your post. Since I work for FP Performance >(Fel-Pro), I can assure you that I am not aware of any lawsuits either >pending or in progress. FP is in fact shipping units presently and >the system is working out very well. The system FP offers is price >competitive with the Accel systems and I believe the FP Performance >system to be superior in quality, technology and performance. I'm >sure Accel is not exactly pleased about the introduction of the FP >system but I don't believe there is any legal coarse of action for >them to take. You mentioned "copyright infringement". This implies >that something was copied or duplicated. I can assure you that this >isn't the case. > > > Riverside, CA 2 '88 GTs! ------------------------------ From: Simon Quested Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:15:20 +1200 Subject: Re: Re[2]: O2 sensor mounting Hi All > > :Does anyone know what is involved in tapping an > > :O2 sensor hole? I think I read somewhere that you can't just drill > > :it and tap it with a normal tap because of sealing issues > > :between the sensor and the manifold once the assembly gets > > :up to temp. Has anyone done anything like this? I tapped a hole in to my exhaust pipe just after the turbo. The pipe is 5mm thick and round, I haven't had a leak yet and the pipe gets red hot ( I'm going to put a pyrometer in there and move the O2 sensor down a couple of feet as I think it's too close) Cheers Simon +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Simon Quested (E-mail questeds@xxx.nz) Computer Technician, Silicon Graphics & Windows NT Support Centre for Computing and Biometrics LINCOLN UNIVERSITY OF NEW ZEALAND Phone (64)(03) 3252811 Ext. 8087 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ http://www.lincoln.ac.nz/ccb/techs/simon/default.htm +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ f u cn rd ths, u cn gt a gd jb n cmptr prgmmng +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ From: bwmsbldr@xxx.com (William A Williams) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:12:22 -0600 Subject: Re: Subscribing to list Thanks for the help. Bill in Boulder ---- "Engineering as an Art Form" ---- ------------------------------ From: Michael Weber Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 18:08:40 -0500 Subject: Re: presure regulator needed At 01:24 PM 7/29/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Hi > >Can anyone recomend a fuel presure regulator? It's got to work with a >home made intake. I'm using D-section aluminum fuel rail so the >regulator can either plug in via an O-ring or attach through a threaded >fitting, I don't have a prefrence. My local speed shop has an adjustable >Bosch for $150 Can ($100US). It doesn't need to be adjustable but it >must make 45 psi (3 bar), which is the standard Ford rating. The Bosch >item sounds a tad expensive. Is this price out of line ? > >thanks guys >jw > The Bosch 237 regulator is preset to 43.5 psi (but most test out to 45 psi). The regulator is standard on the 89 Turbo Trans Am and many FWD Olds and Buick cars with the 3.0L V6 ('86-?). I think the 3.3L V6 also has the same regulator. I will get the excat part number if interested. Michael J Weber mweber@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Todd King Date: Tue, 29 Jul 97 16:52:00 PDT Subject: Re: conversion <<< So divide the grams of air per second by 325 to convert to cubic feet of air per minute. >>> Uh-oh- this means my MAF sensor peaks at only 255/325 = 0.70 cfm! I better hit the drawing board again; I have my turbo sized for 800+ cfm... :-) Todd tking@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Ed or Jose Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:02:36 -0700 Subject: Re: FYI: Fel-Pro fuel injection system <<< No Message Collected >>> ------------------------------ From: Seth Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 21:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: presure regulator needed On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, James Weiler wrote: > > Hi > > Can anyone recomend a fuel presure regulator? It's got to work with a > home made intake. I'm using D-section aluminum fuel rail so the > regulator can either plug in via an O-ring or attach through a threaded > fitting, I don't have a prefrence. My local speed shop has an adjustable > Bosch for $150 Can ($100US). It doesn't need to be adjustable but it > must make 45 psi (3 bar), which is the standard Ford rating. The Bosch > item sounds a tad expensive. Is this price out of line ? > > thanks guys > jw > JW Try the local wrecking yards- there are quite a few god yards in your area, and just to the south. I got mine free, but it is used. $100 US sounds high. Seth Allen Bellingham WA ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #254 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".