DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 8 August 1997 Volume 02 : Number 262 In this issue: Injector Options RE: July "Hot Rod" Injector Options Re: July "Hot Rod" Re: Home Dyno Re: DIY_EFI Digest V2 #261 Re: Home Dyno TPI Questions Re: Home Dyno Re: TPI Questions Re: Home Dyno Re: TPI Questions Re: Home Dyno Re: Home Dyno RE: July "Hot Rod" RE: DIY_EFI Digest V2 #261 RE: DIY_EFI Digest V2 #261 RE: DIY_EFI Digest V2 #261 Re: DIY_EFI Digest V2 #261 Re: DIY_EFI Digest V2 #261 Home Dyno..... MAP Re: DIY_EFI Digest V2 #261 update on tbi setup Delco EPROMS...Re: DIY_EFI Digest V2 #261 Re: TPI Questions Bad MAP? Re: MAP See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: wstrass@xxx.com Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 06:56:04 -0400 Subject: Injector Options To: CMW --INTERNET CMW cc: DIY --INTERNET DIY From: Wayne Strasser (CED) _______________________________________________________________________ Subject: Injector Options I see from your web page that your company uses Bosch, Lucas, Roch., and Weber injectors. What are the relative advantages and disadvantages of each? For my system in development (~30lb/hr), I have two major considerations: 1. Fire every revolution up to 12,000 RPM 2. MINIMAL power consumption by injector Do I need a peak/hold or saturated circuit injector? Which does your company use and why? Thanks. _______________________________________________________________________ Wayne Strasser Polymer Development wstrass@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: "Collins, Jackie, MAJ" Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 07:27:57 -0400 Subject: RE: July "Hot Rod" Most of the in those magazines are "infomercial". You rarely ever see a critical article or full opinion piece when it comes to an advertiser's product. > ---------- > From: Jennifer Rose[SMTP:javer96@xxx.net] > Sent: Thursday, 07 August 1997 00:39 > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: July "Hot Rod" > > At 09:55 PM 8/6/97 -0500, you wrote: > >For an EFI novice such as myself, there was a great article in the > July > >"Hot Rod" about hacking the proms in GM computers and a company > selling a > >software package to assist in remapping a prom. > > > >Did anyone else see it? > > > >Joe Boucher > >'81 TBI Suburban '70 RS/SS Camaro > > > > > >Hi Joe > > Yes - read the article - feel it was mainly infomerchal for the > software > programs. My .02$ worth. > > Vance > > ------------------------------ From: wstrass@xxx.com Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:16:08 -0400 Subject: Injector Options To: DIY --INTERNET DIY From: Wayne Strasser (CED) _______________________________________________________________________ Subject: Injector Options This note was orignally for CMW Racing, but my address for them is apparently old and my message failed :( Does anyone have any input? _______________________________________________________________________ Wayne Strasser Polymer Development wstrass@xxx.com *** Forwarding note from XXXXXXXX--XXXXXXXX 08/07/97 09:02 *** ========================================================================= Received: from eastman.com by GWVM1F.emn.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R4) with TCP; Thu, 07 Aug 97 09:02:35 TOD Received: by eastman.com id AA29644 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for wstrass@xxx.com); Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:02:29 -0400 Received: from gatekeeper.eastman.com by eastman.com with SMTP id AA37574 (5.67b/SMI-4.1 for ); Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:00:59 -0400 Received: by gatekeeper.eastman.com; id JAA27456; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:30:31 - -0400 (EDT) Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu(128.146.90.150) by gatekeeper.eastman.com via smap (3.2) id xma027245; Thu, 7 Aug 97 09:30:02 -0400 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id KAA17984; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:56:48 GMT Received: from gatekeeper.eastman.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id GAA17979; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 06:56:45 -0400 Received: by gatekeeper.eastman.com; id HAA28335; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 07:25:42 - -0400 (EDT) Received: from emngw1.eastman.com(164.89.254.2) by gatekeeper.eastman.com via smap (3.2) id xma028330; Thu, 7 Aug 97 07:25:35 -0400 Received: by eastman.com id AA39725 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for diy_efi%coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu@xxx.com); Thu, 7 Aug 1997 06:56:05 -0400 Received: from gwvm1f.emn.com by eastman.com with SMTP id AA21290 (5.67b/SMI-4.1 for ); Thu, 7 Aug 1997 06:56:04 -0400 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 06:56:04 -0400 From: wstrass@xxx.com Message-Id: <199708071056.AA21290@xxx.com> Received: from GWVM1F.emn.com by GWVM1F.emn.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R4) with BSMTP id 0560; Thu, 07 Aug 97 06:56:08 TOD Subject: Injector Options Apparently-To: Apparently-To: Sender: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@xxx.edu To: CMW --INTERNET CMW cc: DIY --INTERNET DIY From: Wayne Strasser (CED) _______________________________________________________________________ Subject: Injector Options I see from your web page that your company uses Bosch, Lucas, Roch., and Weber injectors. What are the relative advantages and disadvantages of each? For my system in development (~30lb/hr), I have two major considerations: 1. Fire every revolution up to 12,000 RPM 2. MINIMAL power consumption by injector Do I need a peak/hold or saturated circuit injector? Which does your company use and why? Thanks. _______________________________________________________________________ Wayne Strasser Polymer Development wstrass@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Jody Shapiro Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:25:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: July "Hot Rod" On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Jennifer Rose wrote: > At 09:55 PM 8/6/97 -0500, you wrote: > >For an EFI novice such as myself, there was a great article in the July > >"Hot Rod" about hacking the proms in GM computers and a company selling a > >software package to assist in remapping a prom. > > > >Did anyone else see it? > > > >Joe Boucher > >'81 TBI Suburban '70 RS/SS Camaro > > > > > >Hi Joe > > Yes - read the article - feel it was mainly infomerchal for the software > programs. My .02$ worth. > > Vance Agreed... FWIW, it's the CARPROM software that Arizona Speed & Marine sells (www.azspeed-marine.com) - -- 97 Blue Vortech Z28 - 13.100 @xxx.98 http://www.bit-net.com/~jshapiro/z28/ ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (Tom Cloud) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:29:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Home Dyno >Thought some may want to know about this: > >> From: Michael Chaney >> To: fourth-gen@xxx.org >> Subject: [3] Home Dyno Kit for Win 95 >> Date: Tuesday, August 05, 1997 10:13 PM >> >> Ok guys. After programming my eyeballs off and fingers to the bone, >> version 2.0 of the home dyno kit has hit the streets. anyone ever use this ?? ..... comments ?? Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: Joe Boucher Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 10:29:17 -0500 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V2 #261 > From: Jennifer Rose > Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 21:39:54 -0700 > Subject: Re: July "Hot Rod" > [snip] > > > >Hi Joe > > Yes - read the article - feel it was mainly infomerchal for the software > programs. My .02$ worth. > > Vance > > ------------------------------ Agreed!! Mr. Peterson didn't get rich by being stupid. It was informative to me with details I didn't know. I was unaware how to read the prom. Reading the prom has been mentioned on the list. Someone has mentioned having files of various proms. Now I know one method of doing it. I also know I'll never have the resources to do it myself. Joe Boucher '81 TBI Suburban '70 RS/SS Camaro ------------------------------ From: Corey Stup Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 11:40:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Home Dyno > >> Ok guys. After programming my eyeballs off and fingers to the bone, > >> version 2.0 of the home dyno kit has hit the streets. > > anyone ever use this ?? ..... comments ?? It looks very similar to the Amiga version of a similar product. I still have an A500 and A1200, but never built the interface. The Amiga product connects using a 1Mohm resistor to the coil primary, not to a single spark wire. ------------------------------ From: Jeffrey R Muehl Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 09:58:18 -0500 Subject: TPI Questions Question - I am installing a TPI unit on an older 350. (OK, that's not a question) 1. There are two coolant fittings on the throttle body. Do I need to connect them and if so where to? 2. There is a big fitting (vacuum) on the left side of the manifold kinda hidden between the runners (I think it's the left side) that I'm assuming is for power brakes, can someone confirm that. 3. Any concerns with eliminating the EGR valve. 4. I'm considering not connecting the MAF for initial start-up. Is this a good idea or am I overly concerned.... 5. What do I do with the P/N, O/D Request and 1st Gear inputs to the ECM with an older 4-speed manual. (ECM is for a manual transmission.) Any other suggestions or tips would greatly be appreciated... Jeff ------------------------------ From: Michael McBroom Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 09:59:47 -0700 Subject: Re: Home Dyno Tom Cloud wrote: > > >Thought some may want to know about this: > > > >> From: Michael Chaney > >> To: fourth-gen@xxx.org > >> Subject: [3] Home Dyno Kit for Win 95 > >> Date: Tuesday, August 05, 1997 10:13 PM > >> > >> Ok guys. After programming my eyeballs off and fingers to the bone, > >> version 2.0 of the home dyno kit has hit the streets. > > anyone ever use this ?? ..... comments ?? > Tom Cloud Haven't used it, but I DO have some comments. I visited the guy's website and read through the info there. In addition to his software and pickup, there's a bunch of other stuff you need to use it. An alternative exists that is FREE, requires a lot less anciliary hardware (you need a stop-watch and/or a microcassete recorder or equivalent, plus you need spreadsheet software that will handle or convert from Microsoft Excel), is an SAE-approved testing method, and will result in very accurate numbers, providing the numbers you input are accurate. A fellow named Jon Glommen put together an Excel spreadsheet using this testing procedure, and it is available at the TurboBricks website. The spreadsheet's page is located at: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/4242/dyno.htm I was able to get Quatro Pro to translate the Excel file, dunno about other spreadsheet packages like Lotus 1-2-3, but I suspect it shouldn't be too big of a problem. After doing my test runs and inputting the data, the numbers I came up with were right about what I thought they should be. Nice thing about the spreadsheet is it gives you hp and torque figures in 2500 rpm increments, PLUS because it's a spreadsheet, you can customize it for your own applications, PLUS you can have your spreadsheet software generate graphs of your results. - -- Best, Michael McBroom '87 745T 123k w/APC Visit the Volvo Performance Site: '88 765T 156k http://mcbrooms.com/volvo _________________________________________________________________________ Graduate Student, Linguistics Author of Research Interest: Biological Origins =McBroom's Camera Bluebook= of Language http://mcbrooms.com California State University, Fullerton _________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: peter paul fenske Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:30:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: TPI Questions At 09:58 AM 8/7/97 -0500, you wrote: > > > > >Question - I am installing a TPI unit on an older 350. (OK, that's not a >question) > >1. There are two coolant fittings on the throttle body. Do I need to >connect them and if so where to? Not necessary unless you live in Kanada or someplace very cold. This prevents icing of the throttle plate. Also slows down the car so it won't go too fast.. > >2. There is a big fitting (vacuum) on the left side of the manifold kinda >hidden between the runners > (I think it's the left side) that I'm assuming is for power brakes, >can someone confirm that. It is for PVC.. The PB is on the rear driver side of the plenum. > >3. Any concerns with eliminating the EGR valve. YOu would prob have to gnd P/N permanently. Or disable the code in the prom > >4. I'm considering not connecting the MAF for initial start-up. Is this a >good idea or am I overly concerned.... The 165 ecm in TPI without the MAF will run nicely in tps/rpm default.. Only thing SES lite comes on. YOu would have to disable the Maf codes in the prom or burn out the lite. > >5. What do I do with the P/N, O/D Request and 1st Gear inputs to the ECM >with an older 4-speed manual. (ECM is for a manual transmission.) GN P/N leave other stuff open.. I don't think any error codes for tranny.. > >Any other suggestions or tips would greatly be appreciated... > >Jeff > > Get the JTR book.. cya:peter ------------------------------ From: Bruce Bowling Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 13:31:38 EDT Subject: Re: Home Dyno > > Tom Cloud wrote: > > > > >Thought some may want to know about this: > > > > > >> From: Michael Chaney > > >> To: fourth-gen@xxx.org > > >> Subject: [3] Home Dyno Kit for Win 95 > > >> Date: Tuesday, August 05, 1997 10:13 PM > > >> > > >> Ok guys. After programming my eyeballs off and fingers to the bone, > > >> version 2.0 of the home dyno kit has hit the streets. > > > > anyone ever use this ?? ..... comments ?? > > Tom Cloud > > Haven't used it, but I DO have some comments. I visited the guy's > website and read through the info there. In addition to his software > and pickup, there's a bunch of other stuff you need to use it. An > alternative exists that is FREE, requires a lot less anciliary hardware > (you need a stop-watch and/or a microcassete recorder or equivalent, > plus you need spreadsheet software that will handle or convert from > Microsoft Excel), is an SAE-approved testing method, and will result in > very accurate numbers, providing the numbers you input are accurate. A > fellow named Jon Glommen put together an Excel spreadsheet using this > testing procedure, and it is available at the TurboBricks website. The > spreadsheet's page is located at: > http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/4242/dyno.htm > > I also did the exact same program on my WWW automotive programs site: http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling/auto.html access the highway dynomometer link. However, one should realize that if one uses an automatic transmission and measures RPM and does not know the transfer function between the engine and the rear wheels (gear ratio is not enough - converter slippage, etc needs to be known), then accuracy is comprimised. I put in a simple transmission model, it might be o.k for some apps. I can divulge to code to everyone if it is wanted. I used a cubic spline interpolant thru the RPM numbers in order to have a easy way to compute the first and second derivatives needed, and at any point between RPMs. - - Bruce - -- - ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist Thomas Jefferson National Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23606 (804) 249-7240 bowling@xxx.gov/~bowling - ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Jeffrey R Muehl Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 13:15:04 -0500 Subject: Re: TPI Questions Thanks for the help. This P/N thing is confusing. I have the JTR book (and a bunch others) and most say not to ground this pin. If I remember correctly something to do with idle and deceleration. Should I be concerned???? I think a lot of this is tied to an automatic transmission, not manual. Is this true? (Getting very close to hearing this thing run - I want to make sure I'm covered) Thanks again. >From: pfenske @xxx.ca >Date: 08/07/97 10:30:03 AM MST >Subject: Re: TPI Questions > >> >>3. Any concerns with eliminating the EGR valve. > >YOu would prob have to gnd P/N permanently. Or disable >the code in the prom >> >>5. What do I do with the P/N, O/D Request and 1st Gear inputs to the ECM >with an older 4-speed manual. (ECM is for >a manual transmission.) >GN P/N leave other stuff open.. I don't >think any error codes for tranny.. ------------------------------ From: Michael McBroom Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 11:41:36 -0700 Subject: Re: Home Dyno Bruce Bowling wrote: > I also did the exact same program on my WWW automotive programs site: > > http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling/auto.html WOW!!! Nice Site! Well worth bookmarking -- and many return visits! Thanks, Bruce! - -- Best, Michael McBroom '87 745T 123k w/APC Visit the Volvo Performance Site: '88 765T 156k http://mcbrooms.com/volvo _________________________________________________________________________ Graduate Student, Linguistics Author of Research Interest: Biological Origins =McBroom's Camera Bluebook= of Language http://mcbrooms.com California State University, Fullerton _________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: Fredrik Skog Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:57:26 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: Home Dyno On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Corey Stup wrote: > > >> Ok guys. After programming my eyeballs off and fingers to the bone, > > >> version 2.0 of the home dyno kit has hit the streets. > > > > anyone ever use this ?? ..... comments ?? > > It looks very similar to the Amiga version of a similar product. I > still have an A500 and A1200, but never built the interface. The Amiga > product connects using a 1Mohm resistor to the coil primary, not to a > single spark wire. > I have used the Amiga version for about two years and it works very well. ############################################################################## Fredrik Skog '70 2002 ti O==00==O \\\ Amiga 1200 Email: c95fsg@xxx.se \\\ /// WWW: http://www.ts.umu.se/~skog/ \\X// ------------------------------ From: John Hess Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 14:58:37 -0500 Subject: RE: July "Hot Rod" Actually, I have had the opportunity to spend several hours with Steve Cole of The Turbo Shop (Mastertune and Mastertune Pro) The Mastertune, at $299 allows one to change the mapping for a goodly portion of ONE Memcal. He delivers this one specific to a memcal you send him (or the download of the memcal). Notable absent from this system is idle speed adjustments (not to bad if you know what to look for and how to calculate them separately). The Mastertune Pro, on the other hand, does just about all functions on all the GM PROMS. Unfortunately, it cost $2500. This is a little bit steep for the weekend hobbiest. Be on the lookout for an ALDL monitor system (Shades of Diacom) that will hook up to your laptop. Steve indicated that it will target the $299 market. The Pre-Beta I saw has all the functions and facility of the Diacom Plus. This one is due out any time now. I understand that it has been Beta testing for several months, now. As for infomercial...I, for one, was pretty impressed with Steve's effort (TTS). Understand, though, that this package is not going to fix your problem by itself. You need to know the fundamentals of mapping. As for whether or not they are worth it, you will have to determine that for yourself, understanding that they are the only games in town, that I am aware of (ASM and TTS). - ---------- From: Jody Shapiro[SMTP:jshapiro@xxx.com] Sent: Thursday, August 07, 1997 9:26 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: July "Hot Rod" On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Jennifer Rose wrote: > At 09:55 PM 8/6/97 -0500, you wrote: > >For an EFI novice such as myself, there was a great article in the July > >"Hot Rod" about hacking the proms in GM computers and a company selling a > >software package to assist in remapping a prom. > > > >Did anyone else see it? > > > >Joe Boucher > >'81 TBI Suburban '70 RS/SS Camaro > > > > > >Hi Joe > > Yes - read the article - feel it was mainly infomerchal for the software > programs. My .02$ worth. > > Vance Agreed... FWIW, it's the CARPROM software that Arizona Speed & Marine sells (www.azspeed-marine.com) - -- 97 Blue Vortech Z28 - 13.100 @xxx.98 http://www.bit-net.com/~jshapiro/z28/ ------------------------------ From: John Hess Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 15:02:27 -0500 Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V2 #261 Reading the PROM is actually quite simple. Get a PROM Reader/Programmer. Get a dual inline header strip. Bend the long pins outward so that they can be plugged into the Programmer socket. Plug your Memcal onto the pins sticking up (the pinout for the Prom is the first (I think 28 pins) of the header. Cut off the rest of them and you can read (and burn an erased memcal). The trick is not reading or burning the EPROM; but, in knowing where the various maps are on the PROM and what they are doing. - ---------- From: Joe Boucher[SMTP:BoucherJC@xxx.com] Sent: Thursday, August 07, 1997 10:29 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V2 #261 > From: Jennifer Rose > Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 21:39:54 -0700 > Subject: Re: July "Hot Rod" > [snip] > > > >Hi Joe > > Yes - read the article - feel it was mainly infomerchal for the software > programs. My .02$ worth. > > Vance > > ------------------------------ Agreed!! Mr. Peterson didn't get rich by being stupid. It was informative to me with details I didn't know. I was unaware how to read the prom. Reading the prom has been mentioned on the list. Someone has mentioned having files of various proms. Now I know one method of doing it. I also know I'll never have the resources to do it myself. Joe Boucher '81 TBI Suburban '70 RS/SS Camaro ------------------------------ From: Mark Taschek Date: Thu, 7 Aug 97 16:31:59 CDT Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V2 #261 > > Reading the PROM is actually quite simple. Get a PROM > Reader/Programmer. Get a dual inline header strip. Bend the long > pins outward so that they can be plugged into the Programmer socket. > Plug your Memcal onto the pins sticking up (the pinout for the Prom > is the first (I think 28 pins) of the header. Cut off the rest of > them and you can read (and burn an erased memcal). The trick is not > reading or burning the EPROM; but, in knowing where the various maps > are on the PROM and what they are doing. > > > ---------- > From: Joe Boucher[SMTP:BoucherJC@xxx.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 07, 1997 10:29 AM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V2 #261 > > > From: Jennifer Rose > > Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 21:39:54 -0700 > > Subject: Re: July "Hot Rod" > > > > [snip] > > > > > > >Hi Joe > > > > Yes - read the article - feel it was mainly infomerchal for > the software > > programs. My .02$ worth. > > > > Vance > > > > ------------------------------ > > Agreed!! Mr. Peterson didn't get rich by being stupid. > > It was informative to me with details I didn't know. I was unaware > how > to read the prom. Reading the prom has been mentioned on the list. > Someone has mentioned having files of various proms. Now I know one > method of doing it. I also know I'll never have the resources to do > it > myself. > > Joe Boucher xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Ok so it has been said through the group that a prom can be read.. (great) now can some one show me what some different tables look like??? example that im looking for is water temp table?? manafold air temp table?? map table??? and timing advace table??? how easy is it to pick out the tables in the hex dump... I have some hex dumps but can't seem to notice any tables?? thanks if anyone can help... eamil mtaschek@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Land Shark Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 16:22:46 -0600 Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V2 #261 At 04:31 PM 8/7/97 CDT, it was written: > Ok so it has been said through the group that a prom can be read.. > (great) now can some one show me what some different tables look like??? > example that im looking for is water temp table?? > manafold air temp table?? > map table??? > and timing advace table??? > > how easy is it to pick out the tables in the hex dump... > I have some hex dumps but can't seem to notice any tables?? If someone will show ME.. I will include GM capability in my working Chip Editor.. It is designed for Bosch Motronic, but also modular so it can do more.. Jim ------------------------------ From: Terry Martin Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 16:12:51 -0700 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V2 #261 Land Shark wrote: > > Ok so it has been said through the group that a prom can be read.. > > (great) now can some one show me what some different tables look like??? > > how easy is it to pick out the tables in the hex dump... > > I have some hex dumps but can't seem to notice any tables?? > > If someone will show ME.. I will include GM capability in my > working Chip Editor.. It is designed for Bosch Motronic, but > also modular so it can do more.. > > Jim What you are asking for is only available via a straight out power hack on the ECM/PCM/OBC depending on who you're talking to. The only other way I know of (other than inside information), is to pay an aftermarket supplier who has already acquired the bitmap, download the data, buy a custom burned chip with specific data altered, and run a verify with failure address flagged, and the guess the flags by running a test mill/PCM arrangement and determining what's what by sequentially altering the flags, ie EEPROM with programmer to modify data arrangement. This is not simple stuff. The hack takes more programming than the original program data, and requires custom built hardware. It's not feasible unless there's a pay-off. Terry ------------------------------ From: Terry Martin Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 17:56:10 -0700 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V2 #261 Terry Martin wrote: > What you are asking for is only available via a straight out power hack > on the ECM/PCM/OBC depending on who you're talking to. The only other > way I know of (other than inside information), is to pay an aftermarket > supplier who has already acquired the bitmap, download the data, buy a > custom burned chip with specific data altered, and run a verify with > failure address flagged, and the guess the flags by running a test > mill/PCM arrangement and determining what's what by sequentially > altering the flags, ie EEPROM with programmer to modify data > arrangement. This is not simple stuff. The hack takes more programming > than the original program data, and requires custom built hardware. It's > not feasible unless there's a pay-off. > > Terry There is one other way, which is to acquire a diagnostic scan tool such as the Tech-I or more recently Tech-II at $4-5000, and scan the scanner, so to speak. There are after market tools such as the AutoXray, which cost about 1/10 as much, and are upgradeable to stay current with the OBD-II stuff. In any event, it is possible to build an interface, and grab the ouptut codes from the diag. scanner which shuts up everything else on the DL and instructs the PCM (or whatever) to unload. A program can be, (and has been), built which with modifications will emulate the scanner and bag the data. There is also demo stuff which will display the data flow, getting you a step closer to acquiring it. The WIN95 O/S has a "accesibility" option which allows the com port to interface with goofy crap. It also will disable a bunch of i/o functions, and the data stream may have to be custom configured. BTW, I haven't played with it much but WIN95 Hyperterminal can operate in a simple data display mode, which may be a clue to the stream format. You are still working with a code transfer, binary bus transfer, digital communication, or data communications, (whatever), in hex, binary, or BCD(Binary Coded Decimal), and a bitmapped array with programmed system information flow, which requires a "fetch data" instruction, data load by CPU into address register, and a command to read memory, so if you are a gear-head like me, you will likely require assistance in the way of an electronics engineer. One helpful starting point is that it's serial, one unhelpful starting point is that it has to be synch'd and decoded. Prom level reads are simpler, however, they still require the bitmap functions. BTW, don't piss him/her off(your helpful pal) with dumb-head stuff, or in other words, shut up & listen if you don't want to spend the rest of your life pushing pistons. It's not really funny, but for some reason, seemingly realated to program financing by grant at the institutionalized education program level, ie Delco, the available info is limited to what will not result in any sort of liability to the developer. At least Delco, (read dildo, or fuck yourself) allows "leaks". Others are enigma's. Terry ------------------------------ From: Paul Ruschman Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 18:35:09 -0700 Subject: Home Dyno..... This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------F3F813E5DB1B507A64391EC5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Could some one please send me the original posting for the Home Dyno as I seem to have deleted it. Thanks, BRAAP - --------------F3F813E5DB1B507A64391EC5 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Paul Ruschman Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Paul Ruschman n: Ruschman;Paul org: Rusch Motor Sports adr: 14820 sw 109th;;;Tigard ;OR;97224; email;internet: prusch@xxx.com title: Owner/R&D tel;work: 531-9015 tel;home: 968-6519 x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE end: vcard - --------------F3F813E5DB1B507A64391EC5-- ------------------------------ From: clsnyde@xxx.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 01:58:47 GMT Subject: MAP I've asked the question before and have not recieved an answer. Anyone out there know what MAP sensor, if any, outputs as a straight voltage devider, resistor type device? I am looking for something that is basically a pressure controlled rheostat. Any ideas? ------------------------------ From: Michael McBroom Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 19:03:20 -0700 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V2 #261 Land Shark wrote: > If someone will show ME.. I will include GM capability in my > working Chip Editor.. It is designed for Bosch Motronic, but > also modular so it can do more.. How hard would it be to get your Chip Editor to work for LH-Jet 2.2? - -- Best, Michael McBroom '87 745T 123k w/APC Visit the Volvo Performance Site: '88 765T 156k http://mcbrooms.com/volvo _________________________________________________________________________ Graduate Student, Linguistics Author of Research Interest: Biological Origins =McBroom's Camera Bluebook= of Language http://mcbrooms.com California State University, Fullerton _________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: Bruno! Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 12:10:42 +1000 (EST) Subject: update on tbi setup Hi All, Firstly, thanks to those who replied to my question on throttle bodies and sizing. I used the following specs: engine capacity = 2000 ccs number of cylinders = 4 maximum rpm = 6600 tb id = 40mm = 0.04m throttle shaft area = 8mm x 40mm I also got my hands on an efi plenum for the engine, which came on the later model twin cams, and this has a cross-sectional diameter of 36mm. As the plenum was damaged, and able to split into two parts, i decided i would use the bottom half, which holds the fuel rail and injectors (thereby getting out of having to build one from scratch), and put the throttles on this. So, vol of air for each cyl = (500cc/2) * (6600/60) = 27.5 l/s = 0.0275 m^3/min area of tb = (area of tb id) - (area of shaft) = 9.366 x 10^-4 m^2 air speed = volume / area = 0.0275 / (9.366 x 10^-4) = 29.36 m/s I also found that the runner cross-sectional area is about 8.4% larger (average) than the tb effective area, though the throttle shaft has been machined so that there is less exposed metal at wot. It was mentioned in a previous post by James Boughton that a target air speed of 15 m/s is ideal over the intake air event (or so i read, please correct me if i'm wrong). The figure above is about twice this, and assuming the valve is open for 180 degress (half of intake cycle) , is this about right? What is the reasoning behind the 15m/s figure above? am i trying to keep the air laminar in the intake? I am yet to measure the length of the whole system, though as a side note the twin carb setup un the car right now has a very peaky intake resonance at about 4100 rpm. I had noticed a slightly louder "gargle" at about 2000 rpm when running the engine in (still does - just that i didn't rev past 3000 for a while), the noise at 4000 took me completely by surprise when i first heard it. Good prompt for shifting while street driving :). The intake runner on the efi manifold will ultimately be longer, as it is about the same length without the tbs & trumpets bolted on. Any ideas and comments most welcome. Thanks. Bruno. (b.marzano@xxx.au) On the internet, no-one can hear you scream. ------------------------------ From: "Curtis L. Martin" Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:19:08 -0400 Subject: Delco EPROMS...Re: DIY_EFI Digest V2 #261 > > Reading the PROM is actually quite simple. Get a PROM > > Reader/Programmer. Get a dual inline header strip. Bend the long > > pins outward so that they can be plugged into the Programmer socket. > > Plug your Memcal onto the pins sticking up (the pinout for the Prom > > is the first (I think 28 pins) of the header. Cut off the rest of > > them and you can read (and burn an erased memcal). The trick is not > > reading or burning the EPROM; but, in knowing where the various maps > > are on the PROM and what they are doing. Just for grins and giggles, does anyone know for certain what style of EPROM is used? The ones used in the V6's are pretty easy.. they are 27xx series EPROMS. The ones used on the V8's have me stumped: I've got a few of them (all for various VIN "F" Camaro's) and have taken a them apart for a peek inside. Yes it is some form of EPROM and it is 28 pins in a DIP package. However the markings on the component doesn't match any of the standard numbering that I'm familiar with... some examples of the chip numbers are: "014" "69300" "B9414AJ" (These were on a Hypertech EPROM) "40581" "E5012A" "L5490618" (These came off a Delco Prom) The other two components inside the CALPROM pack are both 16pin DIP packages, one marked 16055376 (8602) the other marked 16055375 (8604) I would like to be able to dump the map out of the ones I have and compare them to see what values have changed... I'd just like to know how to configure the EPROM reader to the correct type of chip. Any help would be appreciated, Curt Martin (cmartin@xxx.com) Ormond Beach, FL http://www.america.com/~cmartin ------------------------------ From: "Curtis L. Martin" Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:32:15 -0400 Subject: Re: TPI Questions > Thanks for the help. > > This P/N thing is confusing. I have the JTR book (and a bunch others) and > most say not to ground this pin. > If I remember correctly something to do with idle and deceleration. Should > I be concerned???? > I think a lot of this is tied to an automatic transmission, not manual. Is > this true? I left mine open..sortta. I'm using Aluminum Corvette heads that do not have the internal EGR passages in combination with a '86 VIN "F" TPI manifold. The EGR valve is still present and connected, but doesn't actually do anything since there isn't a supply of exhaust gas to the valve. Grounding the EGR feedback wire will set off the SES light (it simulates the EGR being stuck in the open position) Leaving it disconnected will also occasionally set off the SES light (there are a few cases where the ECM will command the EGR to actuate, then look to see what happened.) Fortunately, temps down here are high enough that this doesn't happen often. (been about 4 months since the last time the code went off) It will also clear itself within a few minutes of driving. Someday I'll have an EGR flange welded to one of the exhaust headers to supply external EGR.. but it's a low priority. Curt Martin (cmartin@xxx.com) Ormond Beach, FL http://www.america.com/~cmartin '87 350 TPI Camaro.. (used to be a 2.8L V6 :) ------------------------------ From: "James J. Heck" Date: Thu, 7 Aug 97 22:48:42 -0500 Subject: Bad MAP? I was hoping with all of the talk concerning MAP sensors that someone could help me with this question. How can you tell if you MAP sensor is going or gone bad?? I have had a few friends just change them randomly and notice an improvment! There has to be a good way to test these sensors.... Thanks James - ------------------------------------- James J. Heck jheck@xxx.org http://www.heckconsulting.com/jheck/ ------------------------------ From: Fred Miranda Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:03:02 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: MAP Try a GM one. 3 pins: 5v, gnd, out the 1 and 2bar units seem to be pretty linear too. I think this is what you're after. Fred At 01:58 AM 8/8/97 GMT, you wrote: > >I've asked the question before and have not recieved an answer. > >Anyone out there know what MAP sensor, if any, outputs as a straight voltage >devider, resistor type device? I am looking for something that is basically >a pressure controlled rheostat. >Any ideas? > > > ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #262 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".