DIY_EFI Digest Sunday, 10 August 1997 Volume 02 : Number 266 In this issue: Re: Adjusting Boost SV: Adjusting Boost Adjusting Boost Adjusting Boost Adjusting Boost Adjusting Boost Re: Too good to let go by Adjusting Boost Adjusting Boost Adjusting Boost SV: Adjusting Boost SV: Adjusting Boost Re: Adjusting Boost Re: Too good to let go by Re: Too good to let go by Re: SV: Adjusting Boost Re: Adjusting Boost Re: Adjusting Boost Re: Adjusting Boost Re: Too good to let go by Re: Too good to let go by Re: Too good to let go by Motorola FI driver? Re: SV: Adjusting Boost Re: Too good to let go by, Part II Re: Adjusting Boost Re: Adjusting Boost Re: SV: Adjusting Boost Re: Too good to let go by Re: Too good to let go by Re: Adjusting Boost EPROM Compatibility Question See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DemonTSi@xxx.com Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 08:06:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Adjusting Boost In a message dated 97-08-09 04:53:34 EDT, you write: << > Would an electronic pressure bleed-off system (I'm thinking specifically > of the Saab APC) aid in preventing the spring from partially opening > throughout the boost range? Hmm, good question....anyone else care to answer? I'm not sure. >> The Saab system basically just bled off excess boost through a pop off valve...if I remember correctly. So it had nothing to do with the exhaust wastegate at all. Van ------------------------------ From: "Stefan Olsson" Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 16:48:34 +0200 Subject: SV: Adjusting Boost - ---------- > Fr=E5n: DemonTSi@xxx.com > Till: diy_efi@xxx.edu > =C4mne: Re: Adjusting Boost > Datum: den 9 augusti 1997 14:06 >=20 > In a message dated 97-08-09 04:53:34 EDT, you write: >=20 > << > Would an electronic pressure bleed-off system (I'm thinking specifically > > of the Saab APC) aid in preventing the spring from partially opening > > throughout the boost range? > =20 > Hmm, good question....anyone else care to answer? I'm not sure. >> >=20 > The Saab system basically just bled off excess boost through a pop off > valve...if I remember correctly. So it had nothing to do with the exhau= st > wastegate at all.=20 >=20 > Van Sorry Mr Van Your memory is not up to date !! The APC-system is connected as a bleed system on the hose for the wastegate-actuator. Its designed to bleedout air that should go to the wastegate-actuator if there is no pinging (knocks) from the knocksensor there is also some other futures in the system that will make the drivin= g smoth (without rapid change in boost) For more info heck this site http://www.teleport.com/~bertram/volvoapc/apcfaq.html Best Regards Stefan ------------------------------ From: bibie@xxx.com (Bibiana Lim) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 23:07:20 +0800 Subject: Adjusting Boost Thanks Bill, Very informative! You Wrote: >Ok here is the story. In general the lower the A/R number of the >turbine side of the turbocharger the sooner the boost comes in. This >number describes (in effect) how much the exhaust is throttled down on >it's way to the turbine wheel. The problem is that the sooner the boost >comes in the quicker it climbs out of sight and most of your exhaust is >going out the waste gate. This holds more back pressure in the exhaust >manifold which isn't good. Like a restrictive exhaust. Rather than an >expensive change in turbos you should look into a slightly improved cam. >This might give you what you need at a lower cost and without the side >effects at higher RPM. Don't let the "guys" get you down. An engineering I'm not about to and I know I've the edge 'coz I've got connection on the Internet from you Guys! >friend at DEC in Colorado Springs once told me that her manicurist asked >what she did to her fingernails. There was a stunned silence when she >said " Changed the spark plugs in my Audi!" Yeah...I've just cracked the fourth one this week and I've decided to cut them all to a suitable length. Will let you know of the outcome. Later Bibie ------------------------------ From: bibie@xxx.com (Bibiana Lim) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 23:08:29 +0800 Subject: Adjusting Boost Hi Pat, >With a turbo an electronic boost controller like the HKS will do what you want Thanks for the feedback! Yeah...but that wud mean I have to addon HKS? I was hoping not to get into such a high budget with HKS..its pretty steep over here for a HKS. But you bet...this will be my ultimate direction. Rdgs Bibie ------------------------------ From: bibie@xxx.com (Bibiana Lim) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 23:09:25 +0800 Subject: Adjusting Boost Wayne, Thanks for the feedback. You wrote: >Definitely the turbocharger-to-intake pressure, not the fuel. The fuel >is theoretically maintained constant, but varies slightly. Ok..maybe I was a little bit confused...now I know that I should focussed on the Turbocharger. But I've got one of those non-adjustable wastegate valve. Does that mean I have to replace it with an adjustable one? Thanks Bibie ------------------------------ From: bibie@xxx.com (Bibiana Lim) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 23:10:21 +0800 Subject: Adjusting Boost Hi Ed, Thank You for your feedback. You wrote: >I'd recommend an electronic boost controller from the likes of GReddy, >HKS, or A'pex. You can also run a mechanical boost controller using easy >to access parts...there's a DIY setup in www.supras.com and I believe Wow..lots of illustrative pics and how-to...great help here...need to read further and focus on relevant ones. >also in www.dsm.org. What these do is basically "fool" the wastegate >into boosting sooner. Yes...the writeup in DSM provided some interesting methods to make that boost come sooner. I think I woud give it a shot...but the writeup recommended that I get an aftermarket turbo-boost meter. Can you get those from a used parts shop or one that is not as hefty as HKS? Will let you know of the outcome...Thanks ED! Bibie ------------------------------ From: bwmsbldr@xxx.com (William A Williams) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 09:21:41 -0600 Subject: Re: Too good to let go by Thanks for writing the responce that I was too busy or chicken to write. Sometimes I feel like we are all just shouting down a well. Bill in Boulder ---- "Once a Thermo Teacher" ---- ------------------------------ From: bibie@xxx.com (Bibiana Lim) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 23:22:10 +0800 Subject: Adjusting Boost Hi Steve, You wrote, >A turbo 200 SX sounds pretty cool. I have a Plymouth Laser Turbo and I >have done a few mods to it. On my car and I will assume yours too, my >turbo boost is NOT controlled by the computer. What I have done to get Yeah..you are right! Mine is NOT controled by the computer..it uses one of those none adjustable actuators. >the turbo to spool up faster is to free up the intake, put on a low How do you free up the intake? >restriction cat-back exaust, and put on my own boost controller. I've done the exhaust except the boost controller. Did you put on an electronic boost controller? So far the feedback seem to go for the electronic ones. But I think I'll try the manual one first...sort of diy setup! >If you have any questions please email me. Keep them coming if you have more feedback on this topic. Do you know if there are any list/forums focus on Nissan. I hope I have not annoy anyone talking about "Japanese Imports" !? Thanks again Steve Bibie ------------------------------ From: bibie@xxx.com (Bibiana Lim) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 23:32:02 +0800 Subject: Adjusting Boost Hi Dan, Thanks for the Feedback! Heaps of new info to absorb...some are really out of my capability to comprehend but I promise to do more research on your discussion. You wrote: >I have been wondering about electronic boost controllers (EBC) because >I have heard at lot of stuff that just didn't make sense. >Seems to me that the main benefit is that it keeps the wastegate >closed longer before opening up. A regular wastegate using a spring >starts to open before the boost is near the desired level so that >the wastegate is fully opened by the time (or rather pressure) that the >maximum boost is reached. I don't see that it will add any more >top horsepower, but maybe some middle HP after reaching about 1/2 full >boost. Good point! No..I don't think it will increase more power...but I only want it to happen sooner...like much earlier. If you can't beat the guys .. at least I could keep up during the pickup(start) until somewhere in middle HP. >The people selling the EBC (or EVC) talk about an extra 50HP on Wow! is this true! No wonder it is expensive! >my 435HP, .85Bar engine but I am skeptical. Anybody do a controlled >test with these? I have talked to a guy who does some racing (pretty >successful too) and he doesn't think much of EBC. >What about the difference between high quality vs low quality >wastegates? Do the better ones stay closed longer using a regular >pressure regulator? I am using an HKS racing wastegate now which >maintained a very consistent boost on the engine dyno unlike another >wastegate I once had. I guess we'll have to hear from the others on this..right! Rdgs Bibie ------------------------------ From: bibie@xxx.com (Bibiana Lim) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 23:40:43 +0800 Subject: Adjusting Boost Hi Seth, Thanks for the warning! You wrote: >Bibie- you could change the turbo, go to a cam with less overlap. But >for about $800, you could get rid of the lag with a nitrous system. A >very quick shot of 1-2 seconds at full throttle brfore the turbo spins up >will give and instant 50 hp or so, and make it shut off as soon as the Wow...this is going PRO, man! But I just want to do a mod without too much investment. >manifold pressure goes above atmospheric. Instant power and much faster >turbo spool up. And in most cases, the nitrous in emissions legal, with >a CARB exemption sticker. Yes I agree that going Nitro is one of the quickest way to make the "kick in the pants" come quicker. But is it safe...I hear about some near misses. Maybe I'm wrong. Thanks Bibie ------------------------------ From: "Stefan Olsson" Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 18:41:06 +0200 Subject: SV: Adjusting Boost - ---------- > Fr=E5n: Bibiana Lim > Till: speedracer@xxx.ne > Kopia: diy_efi@xxx.edu > =C4mne: Adjusting Boost > Datum: den 9 augusti 1997 17:22 >=20 > Hi Steve, >=20 > You wrote, > >A turbo 200 SX sounds pretty cool. I have a Plymouth Laser Turbo and = I > >have done a few mods to it. On my car and I will assume yours too, my > >turbo boost is NOT controlled by the computer. What I have done to ge= t >=20 > Yeah..you are right! Mine is NOT controled by the computer..it uses one of > those none adjustable actuators. >=20 > >the turbo to spool up faster is to free up the intake, put on a low > How do you free up the intake?=20 >=20 > >restriction cat-back exaust, and put on my own boost controller. > I've done the exhaust except the boost controller. Did you put on an electronic > boost controller? So far the feedback seem to go for the electronic one= s. > But I think I'll try the manual one first...sort of diy setup! >=20 > >If you have any questions please email me. > Keep them coming if you have more feedback on this topic. Do you know i= f > there are any list/forums focus on Nissan. >=20 > I hope I have not annoy anyone talking about "Japanese Imports" !? >=20 > Thanks again Steve >=20 > Bibie >=20 Dear Mr Bibie You shall alway choose a correct actuator un less: Whant a customized boostcurve. Have pingings at a certan rpmlevel or load (where you whant to drop the boost). Have traction problems. Whant to drive with different fuels (choose a APC-System) Whant a smoth driving, without turbokick (who whants that ??) A well tuned APC-system works very well on most cars (under normal road conditions) Best Regards Stefan=20 ------------------------------ From: "Stefan Olsson" Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 18:25:59 +0200 Subject: SV: Adjusting Boost - ---------- > Fr=E5n: Bibiana Lim > Till: diy_efi@xxx.edu > =C4mne: Adjusting Boost > Datum: den 9 augusti 1997 17:09 >=20 > Wayne, >=20 > Thanks for the feedback. > You wrote: > >Definitely the turbocharger-to-intake pressure, not the fuel. The fue= l > >is theoretically maintained constant, but varies slightly. > Ok..maybe I was a little bit confused...now I know that I should focuss= ed on > the Turbocharger. But I've got one of those non-adjustable wastegate valve. > Does that mean I have to replace it with an adjustable one? >=20 > Thanks >=20 > Bibie >=20 The easyest way is to move the actuator by placing something between the consoll and the turbohousing. The best way is to change to change actuator to one that have the pressur= e You whant.=20 Best Stefan ------------------------------ From: Michael McBroom Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 09:46:12 -0700 Subject: Re: Adjusting Boost DemonTSi@xxx.com wrote: > > In a message dated 97-08-09 04:53:34 EDT, you write: > > << > Would an electronic pressure bleed-off system (I'm thinking specifically > > of the Saab APC) aid in preventing the spring from partially opening > > throughout the boost range? > > Hmm, good question....anyone else care to answer? I'm not sure. >> > > The Saab system basically just bled off excess boost through a pop off > valve...if I remember correctly. So it had nothing to do with the exhaust > wastegate at all. Not true. The line which would normally run directly from the compressor outlet to the waste gate actuator instead is routed through a solenoid, which bleeds off pressure to the air intake side upstream of the turbo. The APC ECU both controls the amount of air that is bled off by the solenoid and monitors the resulting charge pressure via a pressure transducer. - -- Best, Michael McBroom '87 745T 123k w/APC Visit the Volvo Performance Site: '88 765T 156k http://mcbrooms.com/volvo _________________________________________________________________________ Graduate Student, Linguistics Author of Research Interest: Biological Origins =McBroom's Camera Bluebook= of Language http://mcbrooms.com California State University, Fullerton _________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: Terry Martin Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 11:29:38 -0700 Subject: Re: Too good to let go by William A Williams wrote: > > Thanks for writing the responce that I was too busy or chicken to > write. Sometimes I feel like we are all just shouting down a well. > Bill in Boulder ---- "Once a Thermo Teacher" ---- Here's an idea that actually seems to rate some consideration, (and I hastily admit to complete ignorance after they started taking the points out of distributors). Instead of fighting thermo-dynamics, use a scrubber to boost the partial pressure of oxygen on the air stream feeding the intake charge, and have a vertical array of injectors that progressively feed fuel into the power stroke instead of dumping the whole mess together, hoping it mixes good, and trying to avoid getting a big bang as opposed to a hot burn. Terry ------------------------------ From: Joe Boucher Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 16:20:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Too good to let go by >>to anyone interested in automotive fuel systems. >>http://www.inett.com/himac/ > [snip] >I bet with a MAGNET attached to my fuel line I could energize the atoms, >or was that molecules?, whatever, and get even more free energy from its >intrinsic poential. If I tie in RADIO waves, and ELECTRONIC beams that >the government uses to spy on me, I could make it fly, maybe even go >into SPACE, where the MAGNETIC FLUX would propel me ever onward. > >Hmmmm. Then again maybe not. Oh well, sigh.... > Funny you should mention radio waves. I have a brochure for a device that sends ultrasonic sound into the manifold via the pcv valve tubing that furthur atomizes the fuel droplets. Joe ("I'll take two") Boucher '81 TBI Suburban "70 RS/SS Camaro Bedford, TX ------------------------------ From: DemonTSi@xxx.com Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 17:29:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SV: Adjusting Boost In a message dated 97-08-09 11:23:29 EDT, you write: << Sorry Mr Van Your memory is not up to date !! The APC-system is connected as a bleed system on the hose for the wastegate-actuator. Its designed to bleedout air that should go to the wastegate-actuator if there is no pinging (knocks) from the knocksensor there is also some other futures in the system that will make the driving smoth (without rapid change in boost) >> Whoops...sorry for the poor information everybody! :) I just remember there was quite some discussion a few months back about some Saab system that supposedly controlled a pop off valve, limiting the amount of boost that way. I had always thought that that was a very ineffective method of "controlling" boost, but I remember some people saying that it worked pretty well...hmmm... Van ------------------------------ From: DemonTSi@xxx.com Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 17:45:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Adjusting Boost In a message dated 97-08-09 11:40:48 EDT, you write: << Ok..maybe I was a little bit confused...now I know that I should focussed on the Turbocharger. But I've got one of those non-adjustable wastegate valve. Does that mean I have to replace it with an adjustable one? >> What do you mean that the wastegate is non-adjustable? Most all wastegates use a vacuum source to operate...and you can "control" the boost by tapping into that vacuum line and limiting the amount of boost going to the wastegate. To do so, you can use anything from a cheap little bleeder valve, to a more elaborate, high $$$, electronic boost controller unit. Van ------------------------------ From: DemonTSi@xxx.com Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 17:52:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Adjusting Boost In a message dated 97-08-09 11:41:35 EDT, you write: << Yes...the writeup in DSM provided some interesting methods to make that boost come sooner. I think I woud give it a shot...but the writeup recommended that I get an aftermarket turbo-boost meter. Can you get those from a used parts shop or one that is not as hefty as HKS? >> I would recommend an Autometer unit...and either an Autometer Phantom if you want the cool white faced look. These units go for about 45 bucks...which is about anywhere from 1/3 to 1/4 as much as most of those japanese gauges. Van ------------------------------ From: DemonTSi@xxx.com Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 18:02:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Adjusting Boost In a message dated 97-08-09 13:14:57 EDT, you write: << Not true. The line which would normally run directly from the compressor outlet to the waste gate actuator instead is routed through a solenoid, which bleeds off pressure to the air intake side upstream of the turbo. The APC ECU both controls the amount of air that is bled off by the solenoid and monitors the resulting charge pressure via a pressure transducer. >> Ok ok...I have been proven wrong again! >HAHA< Like I mentioned in another post regarding my messup :) I was informed that the Saab system manipulated the pop off valve...which is not a very good way of controlling boost. If it does use a solenoid to control the amount of air that goes to the wastegate...then it is basically an electronic boost controller a la HKS EVC, Greddy Profec, Blitz Twin-SBC, etc...only it is OEM! Hmmm...so is the APC ECU a separate unit from the car's ECU? Van ------------------------------ From: Brian Knowles Date: Sat, 9 Aug 97 15:33:22 -0700 Subject: Re: Too good to let go by > >>I bet with a MAGNET attached to my fuel line I could energize the atoms, >>or was that molecules?, whatever, and get even more free energy from its >>intrinsic poential. If I tie in RADIO waves, and ELECTRONIC beams that >>the government uses to spy on me, I could make it fly, maybe even go >>into SPACE, where the MAGNETIC FLUX would propel me ever onward. >> >>Hmmmm. Then again maybe not. Oh well, sigh.... >> > >Funny you should mention radio waves. I have a brochure for a device that >sends ultrasonic sound into the manifold via the pcv valve tubing that >furthur atomizes the fuel droplets. > >Joe ("I'll take two") Boucher >'81 TBI Suburban "70 RS/SS Camaro >Bedford, TX > Ya need to be careful you don't get your radio waves from the ham bands, if you were to send single side-band to the manifold it might only atomise the fuel on one side of the engine... Brian ;-) ------------------------------ From: bwmsbldr@xxx.com (William A Williams) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 16:34:43 -0600 Subject: Re: Too good to let go by The scrubber is an idea that requires too much energy to implement so it wouldn't wash. Engines that burn a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen have been successfully tested. You have to inject four pounds of water for every pound of combustion product to keep it from burning up your turbine. 360 HP out of a 20" on a side cub was the resulting package. Emissions were of course pure water. However the idea of injecting fuel during the power stroke to achieve a constant pressure combustion was tried around the turn of the century with some success by Dr. Rudolph Diesel. The results of his efforts can be seen around us today. If he had just been successful in burning powdered coal then there would never have been a fuel crisis past or future. Bill in Boulder ---- "Engineering as an Art Form" ---- ------------------------------ From: Terry Martin Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 16:15:16 -0700 Subject: Re: Too good to let go by Joe Boucher wrote: > > >>to anyone interested in automotive fuel systems. > >>http://www.inett.com/himac/ > > > > [snip] > > Funny you should mention radio waves. I have a brochure for a device that > sends ultrasonic sound into the manifold via the pcv valve tubing that > furthur atomizes the fuel droplets. > > Joe ("I'll take two") Boucher > '81 TBI Suburban "70 RS/SS Camaro > Bedford, TX Not so funny, when you consider that a) ultrasonic spectrum is nowhere near radio frequency, & b) atomization of fuel droplets in this way requires more energy in that you can ever get out, c)the higher the frequency the lower the interaction with the fuel, & d) every fuel contains a quantum energy level, and every heat engine loses most of its energy to heat. Crap like this is constantly propagated by individuals that a) do not understand thermo-dynamic principles, which are not wrong, incomplete, or otherwise irrelevant, and b) 12 ` 3ws4derg6yuhjkl;,/ (gross, I just sneezed 1/2 a beer all over my keyboard), lets try that again, b) don't get that even if all of the rubbish were true, and the research demonstrating the proof was published, neither the oil companies, government, or maniacal individuals could prevent the free discussion of the "patent" principles, and improve, incorporate, or buy the licence to said inventions, and that doesn't even include those countries where technology is assembled, reverse engineered and sold cheaper into the market without consideration to the patent application that made it public in the first place. Amen. ------------------------------ From: "Denis L'Espérance" Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 06:55:26 -0700 Subject: Motorola FI driver? Hi all! I am looking for a Motorola injector driver for my Volvo. I recall that they make a driver chip for the signal to the injector. SUggestions? Also, what is the cheapest Motorola MAP sensor I can GET! one that covers 1.1 bars of boost let say...The MPX 4250AP is great but almost impossible to obtain in single quantity. =20 Denis L'Esp=E9rance Technical writer, Tandberg ASA (Norway) St-Bruno de Montarville Qu=E9bec, Canada **************************************************************** * * 83 244 GLT Turbo B21FT, M-46, 210K/km (quick sporty silver brick) * * 83 244 GLT B23E, M-46, 213K/km (rapid luxo blue brick) * * 79 244 GL B21F, BW-55, 284K/km (slow laster black brick) * ***************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Michael McBroom Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 16:42:33 -0700 Subject: Re: SV: Adjusting Boost DemonTSi@xxx.com wrote: > Whoops...sorry for the poor information everybody! :) > I just remember there was quite some discussion a few months back about some > Saab system that supposedly controlled a pop off valve, limiting the amount > of boost that way. I had always thought that that was a very ineffective > method of "controlling" boost, but I remember some people saying that it > worked pretty well...hmmm... Well, it does control a "valve," but it just isn't the pop-off valve. It's a solenoid valve that controls the amount of boost the wastegate actuator "sees," and is a separate entity altogether from the pop-off valve. My original question remains unanswered, though: will this method suffer from the same sort of inaccuracies due to uneven or irregular spring tension that other pressure actuated systems are prone to? It seems to me that, because the solenoid is controlling boost levels that the actuator "sees" that this would tend to have a mitigating effect. I guess I'm also a bit concerned that this may be drifting away from this list's focus, so if anyone knows of a turbocharging-specific list or lists, I'd apreciate it if you would forward URL or email data. - -- Best, Michael McBroom '87 745T 123k w/APC Visit the Volvo Performance Site: '88 765T 156k http://mcbrooms.com/volvo _________________________________________________________________________ Graduate Student, Linguistics Author of Research Interest: Biological Origins =McBroom's Camera Bluebook= of Language http://mcbrooms.com California State University, Fullerton _________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: Terry Martin Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 16:40:32 -0700 Subject: Re: Too good to let go by, Part II Joe Boucher wrote: > Funny you should mention radio waves. I have a brochure for a device that > sends ultrasonic sound into the manifold via the pcv valve tubing that > furthur atomizes the fuel droplets. And you just mentioned why TPI is more efficient than TBI. The fuel "droplets" have differing mass according to size. That means the more massive "fuel droplets" can fall out of the manifold stream before the lighter less energetic ones. TPI delivers more of the fuel charge to the cylinder in a more efficiently controlled manner. Any efficiency gains are there-fore related to TPI improvements in market feasible engines. I would readily agree that if you came out with a "cold fusion" engine within market restraints, you will be richer than Bill Gates, ( and probably using his technology). There is no organic fuel engine which is as efficient as the current version of TPI and other injected systems. That is not to say there can't be, just that any improvement is likely to be with-in current technological limits. And that does not include space beams from Mars. ------------------------------ From: Michael McBroom Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 17:05:41 -0700 Subject: Re: Adjusting Boost DemonTSi@xxx.com wrote: > Like I mentioned in another post regarding my messup :) I was informed that > the Saab system manipulated the pop off valve...which is not a very good way > of controlling boost. If it does use a solenoid to control the amount of air > that goes to the wastegate...then it is basically an electronic boost > controller a la HKS EVC, Greddy Profec, Blitz Twin-SBC, etc...only it is OEM! Yup! (Please ignore the email I just sent off to you. It was pointing out what you've just said!) > Hmmm...so is the APC ECU a separate unit from the car's ECU? Yes! This is one of the things that's really cool about the Saab APC. It is a modular, stand-alone system. I have installed it on my '87 Volvo 740 and it works very well. I noticed Stefan Olsson posted John Bertram's Volvo APC Project URL info earlier. I used the very well documented information at John's site to do the conversion. I don't see why it couldn't be adopted to any turbocharged car that uses a pressure-driven wastegate actuator, although it might be easier to implement on some cars than on others -- mostly because of the knock sensor. The APC requires a 12-volt source to operate (I ran a fused wire from the + side of the coil), rpm info from the - side of the coil, a place to tee in the pressure transducer (I used the line running to my boost gauge), and a knock sensor. The APC transducer is tied into the engine air supply at three separate points (turbo compressor, waste gate, and air intake). The pressure transducer acts as a cushion to smooth out boost onset by supplying pressure information back to the APC, in a feedback loop of sorts. The knock sensor is the Bosch type that is secured with a bolt through it's center, and is identical to the one already on my car. The nice thing about this arrangement is I was able to piggyback the new knock sensor on top of the old one. Can a different type of knock sensor be used, like a GM for example? I don't know, but I suspect it can. - -- Best, Michael McBroom '87 745T 123k w/APC Visit the Volvo Performance Site: '88 765T 156k http://mcbrooms.com/volvo _________________________________________________________________________ Graduate Student, Linguistics Author of Research Interest: Biological Origins =McBroom's Camera Bluebook= of Language http://mcbrooms.com California State University, Fullerton _________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: DemonTSi@xxx.com Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 21:43:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Adjusting Boost In a message dated 97-08-09 20:30:36 EDT, you write: << Yes! This is one of the things that's really cool about the Saab APC. It is a modular, stand-alone system. I have installed it on my '87 Volvo 740 and it works very well. I noticed Stefan Olsson posted John Bertram's Volvo APC Project URL info earlier. I used the very well documented information at John's site to do the conversion. I don't see why it couldn't be adopted to any turbocharged car that uses a pressure-driven wastegate actuator, although it might be easier to implement on some cars than on others -- mostly because of the knock sensor. >> Uh oh...does anyone happen to have the URL mentioned? I accidentally deleted the original message containing it right after replying to it, but not before getting the chance to check it out! :( TIA So the Saab APC sounds like a very good alternative to most of those overpriced EBCs out there...but does it allow any form of adjustability as far as raising the boost pressures? And if so, is it easy to do so (i.e. just turn a knob or push a few buttons like on most EBCs)? Van <----has now seen the Saab APC light ------------------------------ From: DemonTSi@xxx.com Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 22:04:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SV: Adjusting Boost In a message dated 97-08-09 21:53:22 EDT, you write: << My original question remains unanswered, though: will this method suffer from the same sort of inaccuracies due to uneven or irregular spring tension that other pressure actuated systems are prone to? It seems to me that, because the solenoid is controlling boost levels that the actuator "sees" that this would tend to have a mitigating effect. >> I don't think that this would be a problem because most electronic boost controllers compensate for all these little nuances. Well, at least most of the high buck ones do. I've only experienced poor boost control from cheaper manual boost controllers like the brass bleeder valve that I am using. But this is because the bleeder valve does not adjust itself to varying boost conditions like electronic systems do. It is also more subject to temperature changes which also affects the boost. EBCs, however, have no problems with temperature changes either, and can hold the boost they're set at...(then again, I've only had experience with the HKS EVC III and Greddy Profec...and the temp around CA rarely changes that much... :) Van ------------------------------ From: clsnyde@xxx.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 02:31:52 GMT Subject: Re: Too good to let go by >>>to anyone interested in automotive fuel systems. >>>http://www.inett.com/himac/ >> > >[snip] > >>I bet with a MAGNET attached to my fuel line I could energize the atoms, >>or was that molecules?, whatever, and get even more free energy from its >>intrinsic poential. If I tie in RADIO waves, and ELECTRONIC beams that >>the government uses to spy on me, I could make it fly, maybe even go >>into SPACE, where the MAGNETIC FLUX would propel me ever onward. >> >>Hmmmm. Then again maybe not. Oh well, sigh.... >> > >Funny you should mention radio waves. I have a brochure for a device that >sends ultrasonic sound into the manifold via the pcv valve tubing that >furthur atomizes the fuel droplets. > >Joe ("I'll take two") Boucher >'81 TBI Suburban "70 RS/SS Camaro >Bedford, TX > > That sucker has been around for a dog's age - just a vacuum bleed with a ball that vibrates. ------------------------------ From: Terry Martin Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 19:53:53 -0700 Subject: Re: Too good to let go by William A Williams wrote: > However the idea of > injecting fuel during the power stroke to achieve a constant pressure > combustion was tried around the turn of the century with some success by > Dr. Rudolph Diesel. The results of his efforts can be seen around us > today. If he had just been successful in burning powdered coal then there > would never have been a fuel crisis past or future. > Bill in Boulder ---- "Engineering as an Art Form" ---- Ah yes, but he didn't have the benefit of EFI. ;-) ------------------------------ From: Michael McBroom Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 21:08:25 -0700 Subject: Re: Adjusting Boost DemonTSi@xxx.com wrote: > Uh oh...does anyone happen to have the URL mentioned? I accidentally deleted > the original message containing it right after replying to it, but not before > getting the chance to check it out! :( TIA I knew I should have included it. Here it is: http://www.teleport.com/~bertram/volvoapc/ > So the Saab APC sounds like a very good alternative to most of those > overpriced EBCs out there...but does it allow any form of adjustability as > far as raising the boost pressures? And if so, is it easy to do so (i.e. just > turn a knob or push a few buttons like on most EBCs)? Not as easy as the other EBCs. You have to remove the top half of the ECU's case (The ECU is a plastic box about 6" x 8" in size, with two screws holding the two halves of the case together), which exposes the circuit board. On the board, you should find three adjustment pots, usually labeled "K," "F," and "P" (John Bertram, who is also a Saab technician, believes that the "K" stands for 'knock', the "F" stands for 'frequency', and the "P" stands for 'pressure'.) According to John, not even master Saab technicians know how to adjust the "K" and "F" pots -- I guess because they don't have the test equipment for it -- so he just says to leave 'em alone. Adjust the "P" pot clockwise to raise the boost pressure. I would recommend trying it in 1/4-turn increments until you get it set where you want it. John has determined that, on his APC installation, rotating the "P" pot to its stop results in a maximum boost pressure of 16 psi. I haven't adjusted mine yet, although I'm guessing mine is probably set to between 10 and 11 psi. There's more to the APC story, though, although I'm less than conversant with all the nuances: there are several different types of APC ECUs. John's website gives you specific data as to which car models and year models have the best APC systems for our purposes. Even within these models, though, there is some variation. For example, Saab made the standard "black box" APC, but they also made a special, high-performance "red box" APC. Depending on who you talk to, the red box is anywhere from not much different to much different. I managed to find a red box model for my car by sheer luck. So far it doesn't appear to be much different, but then I haven't started playing with the boost yet, either. Now here's the other side of the coin: So far, I know of two complaints Saab owners have regarding the APC, one minor, one not so minor. The minor complaint centers on Saab's decision to taper the boost off at high revs. With my cheezy, non-calibrated boost gauge, you can see the boost needle back off slightly under full boost at high rpms. I suspect Saab does this to decrease the likelihood of detonation at extremes. And this brings me to the second complaint: many Saab owners allege that the APC is =too= sensitive, and is misinterpreting other engine noises as pinging. When the APC detects pinging, it will back off the boost in 1.5 psi incrememts, which can put a crimp in your style in a hurry if it's misinterpreting what it hears. In its defense, however, I must say that I have not had an occasion yet where it has backed off the boost due to pinging, either real or imaginary, and neither, to my knowledge, has John. So, it may be that this symptom is more commonplace with Saab engines than with non-Saab ones. How ironic. One of the reasons why I bring this up is because I suspect that there are folks on this list who possess the knowhow to crack the mysteries of the enigmatic "K" and "F" settings. It seems likely to me that the "K" setting corresponding to a volume sensitivity control, and the "F" setting is simply a filter that will tune the APC to a specific bandwidth. But then, I barely know which end of a soldering iron is the business end, so don't put too much credence in what I have to say :) - -- Best, Michael McBroom '87 745T 123k w/APC Visit the Volvo Performance Site: '88 765T 156k http://mcbrooms.com/volvo _________________________________________________________________________ Graduate Student, Linguistics Author of Research Interest: Biological Origins =McBroom's Camera Bluebook= of Language http://mcbrooms.com California State University, Fullerton _________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 21:04:59 -0700 Subject: EPROM Compatibility Question HELP - I have a EPROM question, and don't have the data books. Here's the problem. I'm trying to get this 68332 Board up, and the EPROM's that I purchased are Toshiba TC571000AD's The board uses a 27C010A. Are these compatible. My programmer can program them just fine, but they don't seem to be working. They do check out as programed from the programmer, and the data in them looks good. Help! Sandy ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #266 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".