DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, 12 August 1997 Volume 02 : Number 269 In this issue: Re: fuel filter location Re: Motorola FI driver? Re: fuel filter location Re: 80535 as controller Re: Too good to let go by Re: Adjusting Boost Re: fuel filter location Re: 80535 as controller Re: fuel filter location Re: fuel filter location Re: Too good to let go by Re: Too good to let go by Where are the new concepts going to come from if this is the best there is? Re: Too good to let go by - Miller Cycle Re: 80535 as controller Re: fuel filter location Re: Where are the new concepts going to come from if this is the best there is? Mono jetronic problems..... Re: Too good to let go by Re: Where are the new concepts going to come from if this is the best there is? Re: fuel filter location See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fred Miranda Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 18:52:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: fuel filter location Simon, You say the reg "has" to be on the rail. Why would that be? Maybe you meant: on or after the rail. I've done a couple systems with firewall mounted regs. without problems. Fred At 10:21 AM 8/12/97 +1200, you wrote: >This is what I have found out about installing your own efi..... > >1) the fuel pump needs to be as clost to the tank as possible. >2) In line filters can go any where. >3) the Fuel pressor regulator has to be on the fuel rail. >4) the return fromthe regulator needs to go back to the tank. >5) a surge tank is a VERY good idea when using a std fuel tank. > >Hope this helps > >Simon >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Simon Quested (E-mail questeds@xxx.nz) > Computer Technician, Silicon Graphics & Windows NT Support > Centre for Computing and Biometrics > LINCOLN UNIVERSITY OF NEW ZEALAND > Phone (64)(03) 3252811 Ext. 8087 >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >http://www.lincoln.ac.nz/ccb/techs/simon/default.htm >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >f u cn rd ths, u cn gt a gd jb n cmptr prgmmng >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > ------------------------------ From: "Stuart Baly" Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:10:51 +1000 Subject: Re: Motorola FI driver? Seth wrote: >Call allied electronics 800-433-5700. >$25 minimum orderUS currency. Add a few trnsistors to the price for >the=20 MPX 4250AP at ~ $22 US and you have a $25 order.=20 Good luck. In May this year I emailed Allied for a quote on three MPX4250's, and the reply came back - 6 week wait, $20 each, minimum order qty 20 units. Seemed like a bit of a brush-off to me. Anyway I found an Australian supplier and ordered seven. That was eight weeks ago and I'm still waiting... I'm convinced there's a conspiracy to keep these things out of the hands of Joe Public. Stuart ======================================================== Stuart Baly (s.baly@xxx.au) Technical Officer Cape Grim Baseline Air Pollution Station '71 Datsun 510, '81 Yamaha RD350LC, '89 Kawasaki GPz900R ======================================================== ------------------------------ From: "Stuart Baly" Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:50:29 +1000 Subject: Re: fuel filter location Simon wrote: >This is what I have found out about installing your own efi..... >1) the fuel pump needs to be as clost to the tank as possible. >2) In line filters can go any where. >3) the Fuel pressor regulator has to be on the fuel rail. >4) the return fromthe regulator needs to go back to the tank. >5) a surge tank is a VERY good idea when using a std fuel tank. I'll be installing my own system on my Datsun 1600 soon, and this is the setup I'm planning to use: The standard fuel line enters the engine bay right up the front on the drivers side. I plan to take the output from the standard mechanical fuel pump to a surge tank at the front drivers side of the engine bay. The EFI pump will be mounted next to the surge tank, and the return line will go back to the surge tank. The part of the engine bay where the tank/pump goes is fairly unaffected by engine heat. If vaporisation is a problem, I'll extend the return line back and forth in front of the radiator a couple of times. The only other problem might be that the return line will be under pressure - the standard fuel pump will keep the surge tank/return line at about 3-4 psi. Any comments/suggestions? Stuart. ======================================================== Stuart Baly (s.baly@xxx.au) Technical Officer Cape Grim Baseline Air Pollution Station '71 Datsun 510, '81 Yamaha RD350LC, '89 Kawasaki GPz900R ======================================================== ------------------------------ From: "Stuart Baly" Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:50:31 +1000 Subject: Re: 80535 as controller dusher@xxx.com wrote: >Hi all > Is anyone thinking or using the Seimens 80c535 (8051'MCS52 > instuction set')?. Would like to hear if anyone is interested > in using this chip!. any ideas?..bye I've got a 80C552 (Philips 8051) board nearly routed, and the way things are going, it should be controlling an engine by the year 2010 or so.. I seem to remember the 80C535 has a similar set of capture and compare registers to the 80C552. Another alternative is the Siemens 80C537. There is an 80C537 SBC design in the June 1997 issue of Elektor magazine. It has all the features of the 552, as well as running twice as fast, and having a nifty 16 bit multiplication/division unit. It looks like the ducks guts for engine management. I might get one if the 552 board doesn't work. =========================================== Stuart Baly (s.baly@xxx.au) Technical Officer Cape Grim Baseline Air Pollution Station Cape Grim, Tasmania, Australia =========================================== ------------------------------ From: "Greg Abarr" Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:56:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Too good to let go by - ---------- From: Sam Brooks To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: Too good to let go by Date: Monday, August 11, 1997 2:52 PM At 02:23 PM 8/11/97 +0100, Tom Lanigan wrote: >I must admit that I am very intrigued by the idea of 100+ MPG >I would be interesting to see some definitive proof that the system >works especially if it were to be independently witnessed. Any comments? Hi List; I grew up reading my Father's well worn copies of Hot Rod Magazine, Motor Trend, etc. You could always count on seeing an article or two about this brand new super duper carb that was designed to get you 100+ MPG. Two names that come to mind are the Fish and the Pogue carbs. To put this all into perspective, I'm 52 years old now. None of this has come to pass over the years. Sounds like the stuff of urban legend, if not great conversation over a pitcher of beer, pickled eggs and a fistful of pretzels. Actually, I think that combo would get you farther along than any newfangled carb. Thanks for listening, says Sam, returning to his bench warming duties. Sam Brooks KitCar Listowner sbrooks@xxx.net unsuscribe diy_efi greg@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Simon Quested Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:16:54 +1200 Subject: Re: Adjusting Boost Hi Ya > >If you want more power and the engine can handle it you can use the > >cold start injector as a water injector this then allows you to run > >more boost without worring about detonation..... > > I was thingking of an additional injector that activates on specific > rpm. What do you think? The big problem in doing this with EFI is that in general the O2 sensor will "see" the fuel mix go richer then the ecu will lean off the other injectors to compensate and try to keep the mix at 14.7 to 1....thats why you need to either re tune the ecu or get a replacement that you can tune. The good thing about an aftermarket ecu is that you can tune it how you want not how the factory set it. > That's the idea...'coz everyone can go to NOS and that misses the fun > in a charming street setup. Too true !!! > Zooommmmm.....man...! you said it.... woman ! ;-) > >Good to see a woman interested in performance ! > Like you say...as long as performance is the ultimate....Man or Woman... > a kick in the pants....is a kick in the pants! Most girls I know prefer back seat entertainment over screamin' tyres and purring engines >:-) Cheers Simon +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Simon Quested (E-mail questeds@xxx.nz) Computer Technician, Silicon Graphics & Windows NT Support Centre for Computing and Biometrics LINCOLN UNIVERSITY OF NEW ZEALAND Phone (64)(03) 3252811 Ext. 8087 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ http://www.lincoln.ac.nz/ccb/techs/simon/default.htm +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ f u cn rd ths, u cn gt a gd jb n cmptr prgmmng +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ From: Simon Quested Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:30:39 +1200 Subject: Re: fuel filter location Hi Fred > You say the reg "has" to be on the rail. > Why would that be? I've been told that on or as close to the rail as possible is best as you want to keep the pressure at the rail/injectors constant so that the fuel mix is consistent. The further it's away from the rail the more inconsistent the pressure will be due to flexing rubber lines, pump serges, warm days, phase of the moon etc... > I've done a couple systems with firewall mounted regs. without > problems. I'm sure that just because it isn't on the rail doesn't mean it wont work, it just might not be working as well as it could then again in your application it may make no difference at all. It's like they say "If it works why fix it" :-) Cheers Simon +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Simon Quested (E-mail questeds@xxx.nz) Computer Technician, Silicon Graphics & Windows NT Support Centre for Computing and Biometrics LINCOLN UNIVERSITY OF NEW ZEALAND Phone (64)(03) 3252811 Ext. 8087 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ http://www.lincoln.ac.nz/ccb/techs/simon/default.htm +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ f u cn rd ths, u cn gt a gd jb n cmptr prgmmng +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 18:38:53 -0700 Subject: Re: 80535 as controller I have an 80c535 board that I might part with if anyone is interested. Sandy At 10:50 AM 8/12/97 +1000, you wrote: > >dusher@xxx.com wrote: > >>Hi all > >> Is anyone thinking or using the Seimens 80c535 (8051'MCS52 >> instuction set')?. Would like to hear if anyone is interested >> in using this chip!. any ideas?..bye > >I've got a 80C552 (Philips 8051) board nearly routed, and the way >things are going, it should be controlling an engine by the year 2010 >or so.. I seem to remember the 80C535 has a similar set of capture >and compare registers to the 80C552. >Another alternative is the Siemens 80C537. There is an 80C537 SBC >design in the June 1997 issue of Elektor magazine. It has all the >features of the 552, as well as running twice as fast, and having a >nifty 16 bit multiplication/division unit. It looks like the ducks >guts for engine management. I might get one if the 552 board doesn't >work. > > >=========================================== >Stuart Baly (s.baly@xxx.au) >Technical Officer >Cape Grim Baseline Air Pollution Station >Cape Grim, Tasmania, Australia >=========================================== > > ------------------------------ From: James Weiler Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: fuel filter location On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Simon Quested wrote: > This is what I have found out about installing your own efi..... > > 1) the fuel pump needs to be as clost to the tank as possible. Why? I'm not saying you're wrong. Just asking. Is there something about the way a pump is designed such that it would prefer to push rather than pull? I was going to put mine there as well. Now I'd like to know why I made that decision. thanks jw ------------------------------ From: Simon Quested Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:48:38 +1200 Subject: Re: fuel filter location Hi Stuart A petrol head working for and Air Pollution Station ?? ;-) > The standard fuel line enters the engine bay right up the front on > the drivers side. I plan to take the output from the standard > mechanical fuel pump to a surge tank at the front drivers side of the > engine bay. Over here you aren't allowed to have the surge tank in the engine bay. > The EFI pump will be mounted next to the surge tank, and > the return line will go back to the surge tank. What happens once the surge tank is full ? I don't know if it is good to a pressurise a surge tank ? can anyone on the list enlighten us..... > The part of the > engine bay where the tank/pump goes is fairly unaffected by engine > heat. If vaporisation is a problem, I'll extend the return line back > and forth in front of the radiator a couple of times. The only other > problem might be that the return line will be under pressure - the > standard fuel pump will keep the surge tank/return line at about 3-4 > psi. This is what I'm doing....... Low pressure pump feeding the surge tank (in the boot), efi pump feeding fuel rail (from ST), out from regulator going back to surge tank, surge tank over flow going back to tank, Fuel tank vented to atmosphere. This should give good pressure regulation and no pressure build up in the ST. Cheers Simon +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Simon Quested (E-mail questeds@xxx.nz) Computer Technician, Silicon Graphics & Windows NT Support Centre for Computing and Biometrics LINCOLN UNIVERSITY OF NEW ZEALAND Phone (64)(03) 3252811 Ext. 8087 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ http://www.lincoln.ac.nz/ccb/techs/simon/default.htm +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ f u cn rd ths, u cn gt a gd jb n cmptr prgmmng +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ From: Terry Martin Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:51:05 -0700 Subject: Re: Too good to let go by > >I must admit that I am very intrigued by the idea of 100+ MPG > >I would be interesting to see some definitive proof that the system > >works especially if it were to be independently witnessed. Any comments? Yeah, I would be impressed if the carburetor by itself could do 100mpg. According to my weed eater, you can carry it and it gets about 4mpg. Add 1 gallon weight of the fuel load and the fuel by itself couldn't get 100 miles, much less dragging a fuel tank, carburetor, engine, chassis, and on and on, more and more massive, until you get the guy that proposed it as fact, who is full of shit and couldn't make 100 miles on his own feet dragging all that crap behind him. Is that independent enough? More practically, at what speed? Even a human can go 100 miles on way less than a gallon of fuel, as long as he doesn't cover himself in the entrapments of heat engines. With a gallon of gas, he probably wouldn't make it back to the car without a Coke. ------------------------------ From: Terry Martin Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 18:11:26 -0700 Subject: Re: Too good to let go by John Napoli wrote: > Wait a minute. I thought hydrogen was a metal. > > John Only under the physical parameters that make it a metal. Is glass a solid? Terry ------------------------------ From: Terry Martin Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 18:37:55 -0700 Subject: Where are the new concepts going to come from if this is the best there is? Fuel injection is one of those concepts that make you go DOUGH! However, fuel injection is exactly that, a homer. What to do for an encore? Clearly hydrocarbons can not be used even until my kids lifetimes, as a primary energy source. The entire concept is heat related, and I wonder what we would have now, if the restraints of the global system were imposed upon the development of new systems. Obviously, hydrocarbons are not only limited, but lethal. It is a function of the universe that sentience = development. Is fuel injection the answer to our requirements for travel? I suspect so, as it reduces the fuel comsumption to discrete packets, rather than analog estimates. Are hydrocarbons the most efficient fuel? Given our predisposition of arriving at the worst answer first, by gross generalizations, I suspect not. Logic even predicts not, by Okham's (Occam's) Razor. What assumptions must be made for an emerging industrialized society to accidently come across the most efficient fuel and systems within the lifetimes of the original inventors? Lots. And that logically means it's improbable. With fuel injection as our best guess for volumetric efficiency, I would bet that other technologies will overlap, and reduce or eliminate altogether a costly, inefficient, and wasteful source of energy. When electronics, by virue of theoretical physics determines that water (for instance) contains the accesible ingredients for 100% recycleable energy, a lot of oil wells are going to be abandoned or integrarted (most likely). (Now I should start a web site devoted to why not???) Terry Martin ------------------------------ From: "Robert Harris" Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 20:11:21 -0700 Subject: Re: Too good to let go by - Miller Cycle Most Miller Cycle engines ASSUME adequate power is available and there fore trade POWER for FUEL Efficiency. The specific mechanism is that raising the compression ratio raise's the efficiency of an engine quite startlingly. Research suggests that POWER and EFFICIENCY increase with compression ratio up to about 17 to one. The problem is detonation. A Miller Cycle conversion made by Crane or Crower after the 79 Crude Control Crisis ran a small block Chevy at a 15 to one compression on unleaded low octane pump gas. They had to stroke the crap out of it to both get the compression and regain the power. By limiting intake charge, you can safely compress the reduced charge back to the original low compression chamber pressure of say 9:1 and have an EXPANSION ratio of 15 or 16 to one and all the bennies of really good forced exhaust extraction. Running a higher octane fuel reduces the advantages of extreme compression and by the time you are running methane - there is no advantage. Increasing the charge density by mechanical means simply means the Miller Cycle becomes detonation limited at ridiculously LOW manifold pressures. Just drop the compression and put a power cam in. One thing tho - every one of you has watched Miller Cycle engines in triple digit competion - pret near every weekend. NASCAR. Yup. The restrictor plate effectively turns the engine into a Miller Cycle at RPM and thats why they are limited to 14 to one. Some smart ass's figured out that with restricted intake, you could go to 18 to one or more and get back most of the lost power without detonation. Cam's aren't the only way to limit the charge to less than 100% VE "When some one gets something for nothing - some one else gets nothing for something " If the first ingredient ain't Habanero, then the rest don't matter. Robert Harris - ---------- > From: steve ravet > To: Terry Martin ; diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: Too good to let go by > Date: Monday, August 11, 1997 8:13 AM > > > > I know a heavy duty mechanic in charge of the mechanical shop at a > > mill that thinks installing a magnetron out of a conventional oven > > into the manifold will "energize" the gas charge and produce smaller > > droplets resulting in greatly improved efficiency. > > Let him work on the oven for a few days, then when he's frustrated > tell him that's it's easier to find magnetrons in microwave ovens than > conventional ovens. > > ha ha, just a joke... :-) > > > Has nobody ever heard of volumetric efficiency? If you "vibrate" > > something hard enough, it gets hot, hence micro-wave ovens work. > > Unfortunately, hot + manifold charge = expansion of the mixture, and > > less of a charge per volume of intake stroke. It's the same as > > taking your foot off the gas. > > Well sure, but what about a turbo or supercharger to force the > original amount of air back in? sounds like you might have a more > efficient engine. The Miller cycle engine makes the power > decompression stroke longer than the compression stroke by > intentionally leaving the intake open during part of the compression > stroke. That burns less fuel and produces less power, but the engine > is more efficient overall. Add a little forced induction to bring > power levels back up and you are making original power on less gas. > Mazda put an engine like that into the 929, don't know if they still > are or not. > > just fuel for the fire... > > --steve ------------------------------ From: Webb Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:38:30 -0800 Subject: Re: 80535 as controller dusher@xxx.com wrote:
Hi all

        Is anyone thinking or using the Seimens 80c535 (8051'MCS52 instuction set')?. Would like to hear if anyone is interested in using this chip!. any ideas?..bye

--

   Why, yes...now that you mention it!

I am using a '535 processor, with small C compiler supplied with the board, and the otion of 8 channel on board atod. The board also has an on board LCD drivse, up to 128K ram, a keyboard decoder, and a wire wrap area.

It was the best deal I could find at $89. Try  New Micros inc (214-339-2204)

I'm using it on my 2 stroke engine injection project. Just in the beginning stages at the moment... ------------------------------ From: Simon Quested Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:59:16 +1200 Subject: Re: fuel filter location Hi James > I'm not saying you're wrong. Just asking. Is there something about the > way a pump is designed such that it would prefer to push rather than pull? I'm told they don't like having to suck and that they give better perfromance close to the tank.........I was even told that if the pump is put to far away it can suck the hose flat.....I find this hard to believe tho' Simon +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Simon Quested (E-mail questeds@xxx.nz) Computer Technician, Silicon Graphics & Windows NT Support Centre for Computing and Biometrics LINCOLN UNIVERSITY OF NEW ZEALAND Phone (64)(03) 3252811 Ext. 8087 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ http://www.lincoln.ac.nz/ccb/techs/simon/default.htm +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ f u cn rd ths, u cn gt a gd jb n cmptr prgmmng +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ From: Michael McBroom Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 23:27:16 -0700 Subject: Re: Where are the new concepts going to come from if this is the best there is? Terry Martin wrote: > > Fuel injection is one of those concepts that make you go DOUGH! However, > fuel injection is exactly that, a homer. What to do for an encore? > Clearly hydrocarbons can not be used even until my kids lifetimes, as a > primary energy source. The entire concept is heat related, and I wonder > what we would have now, if the restraints of the global system were > imposed upon the development of new systems. Obviously, hydrocarbons are > not only limited, but lethal. Thank you for that, Terry. Now go away. And start practicing what you preach from now on. Pedal your blinkety-blink bicycle to work. - -- Best, Michael McBroom '87 745T 123k w/APC Visit the Volvo Performance Site: '88 765T 156k http://mcbrooms.com/volvo _________________________________________________________________________ Graduate Student, Linguistics Author of Research Interest: Biological Origins =McBroom's Camera Bluebook= of Language http://mcbrooms.com California State University, Fullerton _________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: Weynand Kuijpers Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 08:41:55 +0200 (MDT) Subject: Mono jetronic problems..... Dear people, As a newbie on this mailing list I;d like to pop a question to y'all, because the mechanics in the garage cannot help me with my problem. This made me so frustrated that I decided to take the problem in my own hands. This is what's happening: The car I bought is a '90 Audi 80. It has the Bosch mono jetronic EFI system installed. The problem is that every time the cooling fluid of the engine hits 90 degrees C (is 363 K) I start loosing power, the motor experiences hick-ups, and in general does not run very smoothly. This short description to the Audi mechanics has resulted in over $500 in repair bills, and still the problem is not solved. So I started looking in de manuals of fuel injection systems, and read some things about the mono jetronic system. If I look at the problem, it seems to me that the NTC which measures either engine temperature, or cooling fluid temperature is broken, and feeding the ECU withj the wrong signal. Or worse, the ECU is broken and ... Can anyone please share his thoughts with me. The garage has given me a "card blanche" and is willing to repair the car at no cost. This time I want to instruct them a little....... Thanx in advance, Greetings, Weynand "Akta Gamat!" Leeloo, "5th element" -------------------------oOOO------OOOo---------------------------------- | Weynand Kuijpers | | Unix Support Nederland Unix admin Fokker Space B.V. | | Tel. :070-3630462 Tel 071-5245262 | | Fax :070-3630470 Email : unix.admin@xxx.nl| | Email :weynand@xxx.nl| | .oooO | | ( ) Oooo. | ------------------------- \ (-----( )---------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ ------------------------------ From: Ken Mayer Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 02:49:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Too good to let go by > > Wait a minute. I thought hydrogen was a metal. Hydrogen is a Group 1-A element, together with lithium, sodium, etc. The "light metals" begin with lithium and beryllium, downward through the periodic table. Hydrogen is not classified as a metal because does not form a solid containing mobile electrons. > Only under the physical parameters that make it a metal. Is glass a > solid? No, it's a supercooled liquid. It has a viscosity (very high, of course). If you measure the thickness of an old window pane, it will be measurably thicker at the bottom. It also changes its internal structure over time. New glass cuts very easily, while old glass tends to shatter. Ken :-) ------------------------------ From: Michael McBroom Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 00:11:45 -0700 Subject: Re: Where are the new concepts going to come from if this is the best there is? Terry Martin wrote: > Fuel injection is one of those concepts that make you go DOUGH! However, > fuel injection is exactly that, a homer. What to do for an encore? > Clearly hydrocarbons can not be used even until my kids lifetimes, as a > primary energy source. The entire concept is heat related, and I wonder > what we would have now, if the restraints of the global system were > imposed upon the development of new systems. Obviously, hydrocarbons are > not only limited, but lethal. > > It is a function of the universe that sentience = development. Is fuel > injection the answer to our requirements for travel? I suspect so, as it > reduces the fuel comsumption to discrete packets, rather than analog > estimates. > > Are hydrocarbons the most efficient fuel? Given our predisposition of > arriving at the worst answer first, by gross generalizations, I suspect > not. Logic even predicts not, by Okham's (Occam's) Razor. > > What assumptions must be made for an emerging industrialized society to > accidently come across the most efficient fuel and systems within the > lifetimes of the original inventors? Lots. And that logically means it's > improbable. > > With fuel injection as our best guess for volumetric efficiency, I would > bet that other technologies will overlap, and reduce or eliminate > altogether a costly, inefficient, and wasteful source of energy. When > electronics, by virue of theoretical physics determines that water (for > instance) contains the accesible ingredients for 100% recycleable > energy, a lot of oil wells are going to be abandoned or integrarted > (most likely). > > (Now I should start a web site devoted to why not???) > > Terry Martin Ever wish your email software had an [Unmail] key? Boy, I sure do right about now. My sincerest apologies to Terry. It took a second, non-cursory read through his post to realize that he was not somebody from the "100mpg carburetor planet," which I had mistaken him for. I guess I would have known if I weren't also a relative newcomer here. - -- Best, Michael McBroom '87 745T 123k w/APC Visit the Volvo Performance Site: '88 765T 156k http://mcbrooms.com/volvo _________________________________________________________________________ Graduate Student, Linguistics Author of Research Interest: Biological Origins =McBroom's Camera Bluebook= of Language http://mcbrooms.com California State University, Fullerton _________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: lambs@xxx.au (Stephen Lamb) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 17:34:24 +1000 Subject: Re: fuel filter location >> You say the reg "has" to be on the rail. >> Why would that be? > >I've been told that on or as close to the rail as possible is best as >you want to keep the pressure at the rail/injectors constant so that >the fuel mix is consistent. The further it's away from the rail the >more inconsistent the pressure will be due to flexing rubber lines, >pump serges, warm days, phase of the moon etc... According to MOTEC the reg should be mounted on the rail as close as feasible to the last injector to be 'fed'. So if you have, say, 6 injectors fed from a single rail, fuel inlet to the rail would be near #1 injector, and the regulator would be mounted near #6 (or vice versa). This allows a continuous flow of fuel and minimises any chance of vapour lock. This is NOT to say that other arrangements won't work, it's just their 'preferred' method. With my injected 260Z I have a remotely mounted reg. simply because my manifold arrangement doesn't allow easy fitting of a rail, let alone a regulator, but I've encountered no fuel supply problems so perhaps its not that critical. Cheers Stephen Lamb Dept. of Defence DSTO, AMRL 506 Lorimer Street Fishermans Bend VIC 3207 Australia Tel: +61 3 9626 7525 Fax: +61 3 9626 7089 IZCC #180 ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #269 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".