DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 22 August 1997 Volume 02 : Number 283 In this issue: Holley efi (model 502 analog system) Re: O2 sensor thread Re: pintle vs. disc injector types Re: TPI Questions About diy_efi and efi332 Re: Holley efi (model 502 analog system) Software Re: Holley efi (model 502 analog system) Re: Software Re: O2 sensor thread ISO9141 Re: Holley efi (model 502 analog system) Re: About diy_efi and efi332 Re: O2 sensor thread Re: pintle vs. disc injector types RE: TPI Questions Re: For REALLY good mileage check this out Re: pintle vs. disc injector types DFI Re: pintle vs. disc injector types RE: TPI Questions See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Cloud Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:34:27 -0500 Subject: Holley efi (model 502 analog system) Here are some notes about the way the Holley ProJection system works. I'm slowly reverse-engineering it so that I'm not left stranded (like I am right now ..... with an injector that doesn't work and don't know where to get another $69 from Super Shops). I've heard that a standard Bosch injector works but I don't know if that's true or what part number. If someone knows any more info on this, please let me know (I need one yesterday !!). The injector measures 1.8 ohms resistance (well, the other one measured 7.4 ohms, 332 ohms, 1.5 ohms, open circuit, etc, etc) Measured the injector pulse -- it's .7 to 1 millisecond low (injectors tied to +12) as a constant pulse width and the rep rate varies with RPM, TPS and temp. An interesting observation: the fuel pump control line, instead of just being a DC low, is a pulse train with a 78% (low) duty cycle of 225 microseconds with a high pulse of 50 microS. Weird!! I have it driving a relay, so it's not coming from the commutator of the pump -- the ProJection is supposed to lower the joltage to the pump at low rpm's, so I guess this is how they do it (sorta a "switcher" ;-) ======================================================== Below is a list of all the active devices (not counting diodes) on the PCB. The ones I haven't found any data on are marked "**" Question .... do you recognize the part numbers of the ones I've marked "**" ?? 2N2907A (PNP) 2N2222A (NPN) 2N7000 (N-ch TMOS) CA3240 (8-pin DIP) [dual Bi-MOS wide band op-amp .. Harris] CA3290E (8-pin DIP) [dual Bi-MOS op-amp .. Harris] ** CS453 (TO-220) [5 pins] LF398 (8-pin DIP) [sample & hold] ** LM2917 (8-pin DIP) LM2930T-8 (TO-220) [lo-dropout V-regulator 8V] MC14046 [PLL] ** MJE-295 (TO-220) [has an "ST" logo] ** MTP-305 (TO-220) [has an "ST" logo] ** RC4200N (8-pin DIP) Tom Cloud I took an IQ test and the results were negative ------------------------------ From: John Napoli Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 10:23:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: O2 sensor thread On Mon, 18 Aug 1997, Michael Manry wrote: > The thread is 18 x 1.5 mm. I had to go to a tool & die shop to find a tap > and it was $32.00. > Hope it Helps > > Mike M. Jeg's sells a O2 sensor mounting lug -- weld on -- for 8 bucks. Free delivery, too. John ------------------------------ From: A70Duster@xxx.com Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 10:21:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: pintle vs. disc injector types The pintle type is pretty linear between 10% and about 80%. At least with the pintle type, the fuel flow rate changes as the square root of the ratio of the different pressures. Q2 = Q1 (P2/P1)^0.5 ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.com (dzorde) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 01:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: TPI Questions I was thinking of that, using the cold start injector on the tpi system quite a few months ago now, but no one ever clarified whether the cold injector holes in the manifold to the ports would be OK for water injection. I haven't got a tpi manifold to discect, so I am not sure how the cold injector sprays into the cylinders and if this path would be OK for water injection. Any thoughts on this one from the tpi gurus ? Dan dzorde@xxx.com >I'm wondering if water injection would be a better alternative to EGR? >GMD > ------------------------------ From: michaels@xxx.com (Michael Skolones) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:46:49 -0700 Subject: About diy_efi and efi332 Hello, I'm new to this mailing list and have a few questions. Didn't see the answers in a FAQ, so I figured I'd post them. My apologies if they're common questions. First, I subscribed to both diy_efi and efi332 mailing lists at the Majordomo site. The welcome messages for both of them indicate that the posting address is diy_efi@xxx. Is this correct, are the two mailing lists really one, or did something go haywire? Second, a question for the efi332 crowd. I'm interested in acquiring the PC boards described at the website, but I've not been able to access the _current_group_buy_status_ link on the hardware page. My connection just times out when I click the link. So...what are the approximate prices for the parts, and when might they be available? Thanks again, and feel free to write to me directly if these topics are inappropriate for mail-listing. Mike ------------------------------ From: "steve ravet" Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 12:21:33 +0000 Subject: Re: Holley efi (model 502 analog system) Hey Tom, it's your lucky day, sort of. > ** CS453 (TO-220) [5 pins] CS-452 and CS-453 Injector drivers In the Cherry Semiconductor Automotive IC Data Book (1992), they list an "injector solenoid driver." The part number is CS-452 (2.4A peak current), and the CS-453 (4.4 A peak current). These parts appear to be equivalents to the Motorola MC3484S2-2 and MC3484S4-2, respectively. The pinout and package are the same. Comparison of the specs shows identical performance. I have no idea what these cost, or if they are still available. > ** LM2917 (8-pin DIP) LM2907/LM2917 Frequency to Voltage converter Listed in the National special purpose linear devices data book. Should be able to find it at www.national.com they are the same, except 2917 has a zener between > ** MJE-295 (TO-220) [has an "ST" logo] I see a MJE-2955 from ST: DESCRIPTION The MJE3055T is a silicon epitaxial-base NPN transistor in Jedec TO-220 package. It is intended for power switching circuits and general-purpose amplifiers. The complementary PNP type is MJE2955T. > ** MTP-305 (TO-220) [has an "ST" logo] I see MTP-3055E and MTP-3055EFI from ST: TYPE VDSS RDS(on) ID MTP3055E 60 V <0.15W 14 A MTP3055EFI 60 V <0.15W 10 A TYPICAL RDS(on) = 0.1 W AVALANCHE RUGGED TECHNOLOGY 100% AVALANCHE TESTED REPETITIVE AVALANCHE DATA AT 100 o C LOW GATE CHARGE 175 o C OPERATING TEMPERATURE APPLICATION ORIENTED CHARACTERIZATION > ** RC4200N (8-pin DIP) RC4200 (raytheon) Analog Multiplier Features High accuracy Nonlinearity - 0.1% Temperature coefficient - 0.005%/ C Multiple functions Multiply, divide, square, square root, RMS-to-DC conversion, AGC and modulate/demodulate Wide bandwidth - 4 MHz Signal-to-noise ratio - 94 dB Description The RC4200 analog multiplier has complete compensation for nonlinearity, the primary source of error and distortion. This multiplier also has three onboard operational amplifiers designed specifically for use in multiplier logging circuits. These amplifiers are frequency compensated for optimum AC response in a logging circuit, the heart of a multiplier, and can therefore provide superior AC response. The RC4200 can be used in a wide variety of applications without sacrificing accuracy. Four-quadrant multiplication, two-quadrant division, square rooting, squaring and RMS conversion can all be easily implemented with predictable accuracy. The nonlinearity compensation is not just trimmed at a single temperature, it is designed to provide compensation over the full temperature range. This nonlinearity compensation combined with the low gain and offset drift inherent in a well-designed monolithic chip provides a very high accuracy and a low temperature coefficient. The RC4200 is ideal for use in low distortion audio modulation circuits, voltage-controlled active filters, and precision oscillators. > > > > Tom Cloud > > I took an IQ test and the results were negative > ------------------------------ From: TMatthe@xxx.com Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 13:55:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Software Does anyone know of software out there or guides to create software to reprogram the new EEPRPM GM computers? (94-up) ------------------------------ From: Tom Cloud Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 13:32:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Holley efi (model 502 analog system) thanks steve ... that's very helpful >Hey Tom, it's your lucky day, sort of. > > > >> ** CS453 (TO-220) [5 pins] > >CS-452 and CS-453 Injector drivers >In the Cherry Semiconductor Automotive IC Data Book (1992), they list [ snip ] >> ** MJE-295 (TO-220) [has an "ST" logo] > >I see a MJE-2955 from ST: ..... >> ** MTP-305 (TO-220) [has an "ST" logo] > >I see MTP-3055E and MTP-3055EFI from ST: ..... unfortunately, MJE-295 and MTP-305 are the nos. on those parts -- does anyone have a clue about them ?? thanks, Tom Cloud I took an IQ test and the results were negative ------------------------------ From: Terry Martin Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 12:12:59 -0700 Subject: Re: Software TMatthe@xxx.com wrote: > > Does anyone know of software out there or guides to create software to > reprogram the new EEPRPM GM computers? (94-up) Try this for a start, but it's supposed to be in the SAE publications. (The codes & data stream format) http://developer.intel.com/design/intarch/papers/j1850_wp.htm ------------------------------ From: charlesg@xxx.edu (Charles Grosjean) Date: 21 Aug 1997 20:32:28 GMT Subject: Re: O2 sensor thread John Napoli writes: >> The thread is 18 x 1.5 mm. I had to go to a tool & die shop to find a tap >> and it was $32.00. >> >> Mike M. >Jeg's sells a O2 sensor mounting lug -- weld on -- for 8 bucks. Free >delivery, too. K&N also makes a weld-on boss and I think Racer's Wholesale has it for about four bucks or so. I was a little unhappy with the finish, but I'm sure it would work fine. Charles ------------------------------ From: paulgw@xxx.uk (Paul Wood) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 22:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: ISO9141 I'm told that the protocol for 'talking' to the Rover 14CUX ECU is ISO9141, has anyone any information or experience of this?. what can I get out if it? is it useful or just a signal to say "everything's OK" or "it's broken" Paul (http://www.cix.co.uk/~paulwood/) ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 14:13:40 -0700 Subject: Re: Holley efi (model 502 analog system) Hey TOM, don't laugh, but I think that part of the schematic for the EFI sytem is printed on the cover of the MSD Fuel system catalog. It is obscured by a bunch of efi stuff, but I think that it is the same or something similar to what you have. The catalog is the MSD Fuel management catalog from 1993. The CS453 is the 4amp peak/1amp hold hold driver from cherry. The LM2917 is a frequency to voltage converter from National Semiconductor. The MJE and MTP parts with the ST marking are SGS Thompson I think. These are typically Motorola Part numbers, so check their web site. I'm not sure what the RC4200 is. Sandy At 09:34 AM 8/21/97 -0500, you wrote: >Here are some notes about the way the Holley ProJection system >works. I'm slowly reverse-engineering it so that I'm not >left stranded (like I am right now ..... with an injector >that doesn't work and don't know where to get another $69 from >Super Shops). > >I've heard that a standard Bosch injector works but I don't >know if that's true or what part number. If someone knows any >more info on this, please let me know (I need one yesterday !!). > >The injector measures 1.8 ohms resistance (well, the other one >measured 7.4 ohms, 332 ohms, 1.5 ohms, open circuit, etc, etc) > >Measured the injector pulse -- it's .7 to 1 millisecond low >(injectors tied to +12) as a constant pulse width and the >rep rate varies with RPM, TPS and temp. > >An interesting observation: the fuel pump control line, instead >of just being a DC low, is a pulse train with a 78% (low) >duty cycle of 225 microseconds with a high pulse of 50 microS. >Weird!! I have it driving a relay, so it's not coming from the commutator >of the pump -- the ProJection is supposed to lower the joltage >to the pump at low rpm's, so I guess this is how they do it >(sorta a "switcher" ;-) > > > ======================================================== > >Below is a list of all the active devices (not counting diodes) >on the PCB. The ones I haven't found any data on are marked "**" >Question .... do you recognize the part numbers of the ones I've >marked "**" ?? > > > 2N2907A (PNP) > > 2N2222A (NPN) > > 2N7000 (N-ch TMOS) > > CA3240 (8-pin DIP) [dual Bi-MOS wide band op-amp .. Harris] > > CA3290E (8-pin DIP) [dual Bi-MOS op-amp .. Harris] > >** CS453 (TO-220) [5 pins] > > LF398 (8-pin DIP) [sample & hold] > >** LM2917 (8-pin DIP) > > LM2930T-8 (TO-220) [lo-dropout V-regulator 8V] > > MC14046 [PLL] > >** MJE-295 (TO-220) [has an "ST" logo] > >** MTP-305 (TO-220) [has an "ST" logo] > >** RC4200N (8-pin DIP) > > > >Tom Cloud > > I took an IQ test and the results were negative > > ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 14:17:40 -0700 Subject: Re: About diy_efi and efi332 The buys for most of the parts have been closed, so you wont be able to get on the lists. Their may be some extras, but you will have to check with the specific group buy 'owners' Sandy At 09:46 AM 8/21/97 -0700, you wrote: > Hello, > > I'm new to this mailing list and have a few questions. Didn't see the > answers in a FAQ, so I figured I'd post them. My apologies if they're > common questions. > > > Second, a question for the efi332 crowd. I'm interested in acquiring > the PC boards described at the website, but I've not been able to > access the _current_group_buy_status_ link on the hardware page. My > connection just times out when I click the link. So...what are the > approximate prices for the parts, and when might they be available? > ------------------------------ From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 13:28:00 -0500 Subject: Re: O2 sensor thread - -> Jeg's sells a O2 sensor mounting lug -- weld on -- for 8 bucks. Free - -> delivery, too. Any auto parts store can supply you with a "non-fouler". They're about a buck each. Hacksaw off the external threads and you have an O2 bung. ------------------------------ From: Michael McBroom Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 17:57:07 -0700 Subject: Re: pintle vs. disc injector types A70Duster@xxx.com wrote: > > The pintle type is pretty linear between 10% and about 80%. At least with > the pintle type, the fuel flow rate changes as the square root of the ratio > of the different pressures. > > Q2 = Q1 (P2/P1)^0.5 A follow-up to this, if I might. In the turbocharged applications I'm familiar with, a 1:1 fuel pressure regulator is used, which increases fuel rail pressure in direct proportion to the increase in boost pressure. What I'm wondering is, if the presssure downstream of the injector has increased by the same amount as the pressure upstream of the injector, won't this affect the predicted outcome? And if it will, shouldn't a ratio of delta-Ps be used instead, where delta-P1 = [(fuel rail pressure + atmospheric) - (atmospheric)] and delta-P2 = ([(fuel rail pressure + atmospheric) + (boost * fpr ratio)] - [atmospheric + boost])? At a 1:1 fpr ratio, P2/P1 will equal 1, thus Q2 = Q1. But at a different fpr, which is a popular mod some folks use to increase fuel flow, Q2 should increase, but only by the differential amount. Right? EG #1: Given: 1:1 fpr 0.8 bar boost Q1 = 300ml/min P1 = 3 bar + 1 bar (rail pressure + atmospheric pressure) P2 = P1 + (boost * fpr ratio) P2 - (1 + 0.8) ([3 + 1] + [0.8 * 1]) - (1 + 0.8) Q2 = Q1 x (----------------)^0.5 = 300 x (-----------------------------------)^0.5 = 300ml/min = Q1 (P1 - 1) ([3 + 1] - 1) EG #2: Given: all of the above, but with a 2:1 rising rate fuel pressure regulator ([3 + 1] + [0.8 * 2]) - (1 + 0.8) Q2 = 300 x (------------------------------------)^0.5 = 338ml/min ([3 + 1] - 1) - -- Best, Michael McBroom '87 745T 123k w/APC Visit the Volvo Performance Site: '88 765T 156k http://mcbrooms.com/volvo _________________________________________________________________________ Graduate Student, Linguistics Author of Research Interest: Biological Origins =McBroom's Camera Bluebook= of Language http://mcbrooms.com California State University, Fullerton _________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: James Boughton Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 21:42:14 -0400 Subject: RE: TPI Questions What's wrong with EGR? It's already available - no extra water bottles. I also don't think you will get the fuel economy benefit from water injection. Jim Boughton boughton@xxx.net - ---------- From: dzorde[SMTP:dzorde@xxx.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 1997 9:22 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: TPI Questions I was thinking of that, using the cold start injector on the tpi system quite a few months ago now, but no one ever clarified whether the cold injector holes in the manifold to the ports would be OK for water injection. I haven't got a tpi manifold to discect, so I am not sure how the cold injector sprays into the cylinders and if this path would be OK for water injection. Any thoughts on this one from the tpi gurus ? Dan dzorde@xxx.com >I'm wondering if water injection would be a better alternative to EGR? >GMD > ------------------------------ From: Frank Piccolo Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 22:00:09 -0400 Subject: Re: For REALLY good mileage check this out David Doddek wrote: > >http://home.earthlink.net/~josephnewman/ > > > >I dunno, but I suspects that this URL should read http://home.The > >Planet.ZORGON > > > > > > > If the guy was not trying to be so much of a salesman, the theory is > actually quite interesting. And really he is not getting something > for > nothing. What he has actually invented is an extreemely save nuclear > reactor because what is actually happening is the copper atom is > providing > the power as it is being destroyed. Any other Engineers or Scientists > care > to comment. > > David Doddek pantera@xxx.com/~pantera > 217-422-3722 > 69 EFI Fairlane, 89 T-bird SC, 74 Twin turbo NOS EFI Pantera #6825 > If you are going to go fast, go real fast. I thought he might be getting energy from the reaction of the Earth's magnetic field and the colaps of the units own field collapsing. Then it would not be classified as a perpetual motion machine. But since the movement knows best......How much was the pentagon paying for a hammers again. ------------------------------ From: "Jeffrey Engel" Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 20:04:05 +600 Subject: Re: pintle vs. disc injector types I don't think outside pressure would affect it. The systems I am aware of reference the FPR to the intake manifold, so: Fuel pressure is: P1 + Constant (about 30-41 psi) and P1 is the pressure inside the intake the pressure at the end of the injector is: P1 (minus a bit due to air flow resistance. Maybe a max of 1-3inHg) Keeping a constant pressure differential across the injector allows the computer to assume a fairly constant mass/time(open). It could work the other way as well, but it would take a lot more tuning. ============================================ > Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 17:57:07 -0700 > From: Michael McBroom > Organization: http://mcbrooms.com > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: pintle vs. disc injector types > Reply-to: diy_efi@xxx.edu > A70Duster@xxx.com wrote: > > > > The pintle type is pretty linear between 10% and about 80%. At least with > > the pintle type, the fuel flow rate changes as the square root of the ratio > > of the different pressures. > > > > Q2 = Q1 (P2/P1)^0.5 > > A follow-up to this, if I might. In the turbocharged applications I'm > familiar with, a 1:1 fuel pressure regulator is used, which increases > fuel rail pressure in direct proportion to the increase in boost > pressure. What I'm wondering is, if the presssure downstream of the > injector has increased by the same amount as the pressure upstream of > the injector, won't this affect the predicted outcome? And if it will, > shouldn't a ratio of delta-Ps be used instead, where delta-P1 = [(fuel > rail pressure + atmospheric) - (atmospheric)] and delta-P2 = ([(fuel > rail pressure + atmospheric) + (boost * fpr ratio)] - [atmospheric + > boost])? At a 1:1 fpr ratio, P2/P1 will equal 1, thus Q2 = Q1. But at > a different fpr, which is a popular mod some folks use to increase fuel > flow, Q2 should increase, but only by the differential amount. Right? > > EG #1: > > Given: 1:1 fpr > 0.8 bar boost > Q1 = 300ml/min > P1 = 3 bar + 1 bar (rail pressure + atmospheric pressure) > P2 = P1 + (boost * fpr ratio) > > P2 - (1 + 0.8) ([3 + 1] + [0.8 * 1]) - (1 > + 0.8) > Q2 = Q1 x (----------------)^0.5 = 300 x > (-----------------------------------)^0.5 = 300ml/min = Q1 > (P1 - 1) ([3 + 1] - 1) > > EG #2: > > Given: all of the above, but with a 2:1 rising rate fuel pressure > regulator > > ([3 + 1] + [0.8 * 2]) - (1 + 0.8) > Q2 = 300 x (------------------------------------)^0.5 = 338ml/min > ([3 + 1] - 1) > > -- > Best, > > Michael McBroom > > '87 745T 123k w/APC Visit the Volvo Performance Site: > '88 765T 156k http://mcbrooms.com/volvo > _________________________________________________________________________ > > Graduate Student, Linguistics Author of > Research Interest: Biological Origins =McBroom's Camera Bluebook= > of Language http://mcbrooms.com > California State University, Fullerton > _________________________________________________________________________ > > je jengel@xxx.net "I can resist anything but temptation" Mark Twain ------------------------------ From: "Mark Boggs" Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 00:43:59 -0400 Subject: DFI I think that Tom Jenkins is working directly with John Meaney on his new FP-Performance setup that does closed loop at wide-open-throttle. Rumor has it (from a buddy of mine) that they are considering a plug-in harness for 4th generation f-bodies. Whether or not it happens... - -Mark ------------------------------ From: Michael McBroom Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 23:07:12 -0700 Subject: Re: pintle vs. disc injector types Jeffrey Engel wrote: > > I don't think outside pressure would affect it. The systems I am > aware of reference the FPR to the intake manifold, so: > > Fuel pressure is: P1 + Constant (about 30-41 psi) and P1 is the pressure > inside the intake > > the pressure at the end of the injector is: P1 (minus a bit due to > air flow resistance. Maybe a max of 1-3inHg) Well, yes. It looks as if you're essentially agreeing with what I wrote, though. The "outside pressure" I was referring to IS P1. In that respect, you're also comparing different values than I was. In the original posting, I had taken the equation to mean that P2 was the "new" fuel rail pressure and P1 was the "old" one, since the solution was for Q2, a new flow rate. In your example above, P1 is intake pressure, where P2 (or P1 + Constant [aka fuel rail pressure]) is adjusted fuel pressure, which is a different set of parameters. Boy, did my equations get fouled up in the word-wrap process. Let me try this again. For a turbocharged application in which a proportional fuel pressure regulator is used, then it seems to me that one cannot use the equation: P2 Q2 = Q1 * (----)^0.5 P1 to determine flow. It seems that instead one must use the ratio of the differences between fuel rail pressures and intake pressures in order to determine new flow rates, since fuel rail pressure increases with boost. The way I see it, the following equation would have to be used: P2 - (atmospheric + boost) Q2 = Q1 x (----------------------------)^0.5 (P1 - atmospheric) where: P1 = fuel rail pressure + atmospheric pressure P2 = P1 + (boost * fpr ratio) EG #1: using a 1:1 fuel pressure regulator Given: 1:1 fpr 0.8 bar boost Q1 = 300ml/min P1 = 3 bar + 1 bar (rail pressure + atmospheric pressure) P2 = P1 + (boost * fpr ratio) ([3 + 1] + [0.8 * 1]) - (1 + 0.8) Q2 = 300 x (-----------------------------------)^0.5 ([3 + 1] - 1) = 300ml/min = Q1 EG #2: using a 2:1 rising rate fuel pressure regulator Given: all of the above, but with a 2:1 rrfpr ([3 + 1] + [0.8 * 2]) - (1 + 0.8) Q2 = 300 x (------------------------------------)^0.5 ([3 + 1] - 1) = 338ml/min This still seems to be the right approach to me. If I've committed an egregious error anywhere, though, please let me know. - -- Best, Michael McBroom '87 745T 123k w/APC Visit the Volvo Performance Site: '88 765T 156k http://mcbrooms.com/volvo _________________________________________________________________________ Graduate Student, Linguistics Author of Research Interest: Biological Origins =McBroom's Camera Bluebook= of Language http://mcbrooms.com California State University, Fullerton _________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.com (dzorde) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 00:40:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: TPI Questions Ahh, but egr will not allow me to advance timing at wot (and avoid detonation) since its not effective then. Where as water injection will allow for advanced timing and more fuel without detonation. However, egr at part throttle, then water injection when egr cuts out ?? Economy at cruise, more power at wot. Now there's an idea. Dan dzorde@xxx.com >What's wrong with EGR? It's already available - no extra water >bottles. I also don't think you will get the fuel economy benefit >from water injection. > >Jim Boughton >boughton@xxx.net > >---------- >From: dzorde[SMTP:dzorde@xxx.com] >Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 1997 9:22 PM >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >Subject: Re: TPI Questions > >I was thinking of that, using the cold start injector on the tpi system >quite a few months ago now, but no one ever clarified whether the cold >injector holes in the manifold to the ports would be OK for water injection. >I haven't got a tpi manifold to discect, so I am not sure how the cold >injector sprays into the cylinders and if this path would be OK for water >injection. Any thoughts on this one from the tpi gurus ? > >Dan dzorde@xxx.com > >>I'm wondering if water injection would be a better alternative to EGR? >>GMD >> > > > > ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #283 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".