DIY_EFI Digest Monday, 25 August 1997 Volume 02 : Number 287 In this issue: Re: TPI Questions Re: TPI Questions Re: O2 sensor thread Re: For REALLY good injection, check this out email suspended due to hacker Re: BOSCH stuff Re: No Mo O2 sensor Re: BOSCH stuff Re: BOSCH stuff EFI Re: EFI Re: EFI http://www.cs.ruu.nl/wais/html/na-dir/autos/gasoline-faq/.html RE: Gas FAQ Re: EFI (Nitrous) Re: EFI & furthermore Re: EFI Robert Harris Sourcing Ignition Maps for Cars (Rover) Electronic (uC ccontrolled) ignition Re: Sourcing Ignition Maps for Cars (Rover) Re: EFI & furthermore RE: BOSCH stuff Re: Electronic (uC ccontrolled) ignition Re: Haltech phone & address See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 07:51:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: TPI Questions I think the cold start port is at the base of the manifold. It seems like a small hole drilled length wise of the manifold. I don't think it would work well as a water injection port. I think the water would puddle up in the passage and sputter unevenly to the cylinders. The water needs to be atomized once it enters the A/F mixture. GMD At 01:22 AM 8/21/97 -0700, you wrote: >I was thinking of that, using the cold start injector on the tpi system >quite a few months ago now, but no one ever clarified whether the cold >injector holes in the manifold to the ports would be OK for water injection. >I haven't got a tpi manifold to discect, so I am not sure how the cold >injector sprays into the cylinders and if this path would be OK for water >injection. Any thoughts on this one from the tpi gurus ? > >Dan dzorde@xxx.com > >>I'm wondering if water injection would be a better alternative to EGR? >>GMD >> > > > George M. Dailey gmd@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 07:51:49 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: TPI Questions Exactly, I'm thinking the cooler charge would allow you to bump the timing up a little higher. GMD At 10:54 AM 8/22/97 EDT, you wrote: >Bear in mind that water or water/methanol injection will exert a powerful >cooling effect on the mixture rather than merely diluting the mixture >with hot, inert, gasses. >Bill in Boulder "Engineering as an Art Form" > > > George M. Dailey gmd@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 07:51:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: O2 sensor thread Now that's a clever trick! Look out Ann Landers. GMD At 01:28 PM 8/21/97 -0500, you wrote: > >-> Jeg's sells a O2 sensor mounting lug -- weld on -- for 8 bucks. Free >-> delivery, too. > > Any auto parts store can supply you with a "non-fouler". They're about >a buck each. Hacksaw off the external threads and you have an O2 bung. > > > George M. Dailey gmd@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: "Robert Harris" Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 08:02:49 -0700 Subject: Re: For REALLY good injection, check this out Dah - dere is a more saturated fuel available - its called M85 or Methanol. Now time for basic chemistry. The more oxygen a fuel contains - the lower the power density of the fuel, and the more of the fuel you have to burn to make the same level of power. Your flipping magnets electromagnetic spectrum analopticytous whacko fantasy's aside, thats reality. And since the oxygenation of fuel is NOT for POWER nor for MILEAGE nor to make CARBS work better, but is for a cheap ass way of reducing certain emissions in ALL engines and causes an INCREASE in other type emissions, more is not BETTER! By the way, NOX is related to combustion TEMP, of which ethers and alcohol's tend to lower because they have LESS energy, but the prime purpose is they raise the OCTANE CHEAPER than most other additives with two nice side effects - the HC's do get lowered and the ENERGY NAZIS love it. Side effects include increased formaldehyde outputs and radically increased evaporation HC's - dats why it can only be used during winter. And Terry and others - might I suggest reading the "Exhaustive Gasoline FAQ" parts 1 to 4 posted and made available numerous places on the net. This will explain many of your fuel questions with enough provable theory so that you don't get snake oiled or side tracked into fantasy land. Final note. Diesel fuel contains ZERO oxygenates, ZERO alcohol's or ethers and is as close to liquid COAL (straight carbon) as can be made and meet other requirements. The ENERGY in a fuel is very closely related to the amount of carbon available to combine with oxygen, and pre-combining oxygen in effect pre-burns that portion of the fuel. Sorry - no plasmaizing puke yellow page magic today boys. Further, comparing gasoline to diesel requiring special fuels ain't in the realm of reality. It took Fuel Injection about 70 plus years to equal a properly tuned high performance carb such as a Weber. Further, after the fuel and air are mixed, there is NO Difference in combustion - so mixing a special fuel for one or the other is right up there with SLICK 50 and the POGUE carburetor and the fuel line magnet. Regional differences in temp, altitude, humidity etc swamp any difference blending special fuels would make with todays STREET state of the art and would be POLITICAL suicide. Just my not so humble opinion which is probably wrong anyway. Read the FAQ please before fueling my asbestos panty liners. "When some one gets something for nothing - some one else gets nothing for something " If the first ingredient ain't Habanero, then the rest don't matter. Robert Harris - ---------- > From: Don Bowen > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: For REALLY good injection, check this out > Date: Saturday, August 23, 1997 4:55 PM > > Seems like it would also do to reduce NOX even further than the current > oxygenated stuff. > > At 12:44 PM 8/23/97 -0700, you wrote: > I suppose the so called "oxygenation" of fuel has some merit, > >but it's still a concept trying to formulate fuel to fit both carbed, > >and injected engines. That's just plain stupid. If the gas companies > >want to get on the boat, why not formulate a fuel specifically for > >injected engines, (like diesel is), and make a serious attempt to > >saturate the fuel with oxygen, so that the intake air stream is reduced. > >Hell, they could even get into agriculture, and use the oxygen given off > >by plants as the source by tapping the enriched air of the massive acres > >of greenhouses popping up everywhere. I have no idea what sort of oxygen > >absorption a particular liquid hydro-carbon has, (pressure dependant, > >among other things), but getting even a small amount of the nitrogen out > >of the process in favour of oxygen has big leverage on combustion and > >power efficiency, as does recovering lost heat, and moving heat out of > >the intake charge. > > > >Terry > > > > > > > Robert Bowen > California, via Thailand, Czech Republic > > Linguistics Student; mechanic; Vespa collector > *1967 Toyota Corona, 1976 Vespa Rally 200* > Ska is the ONLY Jamaican music that counts ------------------------------ From: Bruce Bowling Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 12:02:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: email suspended due to hacker Some "hacker" has entered our network via. Linux boxes on the net, using some obscure backdoor bug. They appeared to have decoded passwords, etc, so the lab decided to pull the plug on the network to the outside world for the next week, untill everybody has a new password (thousands of people!!!) and they rebuild the Linux boxes. So my email will bounce, and my WWW pages will net be accessable. I should be back up at the end of the week. - - Bruce ------------------------------ From: Michael McBroom Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 09:26:56 -0700 Subject: Re: BOSCH stuff Steve Meade wrote: > I'm a bit curious, I remember your posts a while back about your > adaptation of the Saab boost control system and I was wondering, is your > 745 faster than your 765? Lots faster. But then it was faster before I installed the Saab APC, which is kind of curious. There are a few differences between the two cars, other than type and year model. The 745T has the M46+OD, the 765T has the AW71. The 745T had no functioning auxiliary boost control prior to installing the APC, while the 765T has the Turbo+ kit. The 745T has the Garrett T3 turbo while the 765T has the Mitsubishi unit. Prior to installing the APC on the 745T, its 0-60 times were roughly 1 second quicker than the 765T. I honestly don't know whether this can be attributed mostly to the AW71 in the 765T, or if there are perhaps other, more subtle areas that need attention on that car. Seems to me that, even with the AW71, because it has the Turbo+ kit, it should be at least as fast as a 160hp 745T w/stick. > I must thank you for something else entirely; a > month ago I went out and bought a new camera. I traded in my old (and very > heavy) Minolta XG-1 and lenses and hardly had to pay very much at all for > the new camera. I noticed the guy pulled out your book when looking up > prices. :) Does my heart good. - -- Best, Michael McBroom '87 745T 123k w/APC Visit the Volvo Performance Site: '88 765T 156k http://mcbrooms.com/volvo _________________________________________________________________________ Graduate Student, Linguistics Author of Research Interest: Biological Origins =McBroom's Camera Bluebook= of Language http://mcbrooms.com California State University, Fullerton _________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: verde@xxx.) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 12:02:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: No Mo O2 sensor The ECU is from a 81 Datsun 200SX and the manifold is a Japan market only for an "L" series datsun engine. It is in my 72 Datsun 510. Jason G. > What type of FI are you trying to play with? > > Bill > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://rogue.northwest.com/~verde <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ------------------------------ From: Michael McBroom Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 12:27:54 -0700 Subject: Re: BOSCH stuff Michael McBroom wrote: > > I'm a bit curious, I remember your posts a while back about your > > adaptation of the Saab boost control system and I was wondering, is your > > 745 faster than your 765? > > Lots faster. But then it was faster before I installed the Saab APC, > which is kind of curious. There are a few differences between the two > cars, other than type and year model. The 745T has the M46+OD, the 765T > has the AW71. Sorry about the above -- I wasn't paying attention the the return email address -- thought this had originated on one of the Volvo email lists. In case you don't know what the abover alphanumeric soup is referring to, the M46+OD is a 4-speed+overdrive manual tranny, and the AW71 is a 3-speed+overdrive auto transmission. - -- Best, Michael McBroom '87 745T 123k w/APC Visit the Volvo Performance Site: '88 765T 156k http://mcbrooms.com/volvo _________________________________________________________________________ Graduate Student, Linguistics Author of Research Interest: Biological Origins =McBroom's Camera Bluebook= of Language http://mcbrooms.com California State University, Fullerton _________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: "Steve Meade" Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 12:50:31 -0700 Subject: Re: BOSCH stuff -----Original Message----- From: Michael McBroom To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Subject: Re: BOSCH stuff >Michael McBroom wrote: > >Sorry about the above -- I wasn't paying attention the the return email >address -- thought this had originated on one of the Volvo email lists. >In case you don't know what the abover alphanumeric soup is referring >to, the M46+OD is a 4-speed+overdrive manual tranny, and the AW71 is a >3-speed+overdrive auto transmission. > At first I was rather confused but you did mention at the bottom that the 745 had a stick so I pretty much assumed they were tranny designations and your 765 got stuck with the slushbox. >-- >Best, > >Michael McBroom ------------------------------ From: Terry Martin Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 13:49:00 -0700 Subject: EFI Robert Harris wrote: > > Dah - dere is a more saturated fuel available - its > called M85 or Methanol. Now time for basic chemistry. > > The more oxygen a fuel contains - the lower the power > density of the fuel, and the more of the fuel you have to > burn to make the same level of power. You missed a word. It should have read "and the more of the combined fuel you have to burn to make the same level of power." Unless you've figured out how to get around some basic thermo-dynamics, it's self evident that displacing hydro-carbons with oxygen in a given volume will require more combined mass in the same volume for the same energy than a larger mass of hydro-carbons being fed even more mass of oxygen. (Sort of a gas pedal type of calculation) > Your flipping magnets > electromagnetic spectrum analopticytous whacko fantasy's > aside, thats reality. They sure ain't my fantasy. Mine has hooters. > And since the oxygenation of fuel is NOT for POWER nor for > MILEAGE nor to make CARBS work better, but is for a cheap ass > way of reducing certain emissions in ALL engines and causes > an INCREASE in other type emissions, more is not BETTER! All shouting aside, why it's done does not have any particular relationship to everything that happens when it's done, which is exactly my point. It's stupid to formulate fuel to run both carbed and fuel injected engines. You get the worst of both. > By the way, NOX is related to combustion TEMP, Your point being? I was suggesting working at getting rid of the nitrogen, (at least some of it), unless you're saying combustion temp is the only thing NOX is related to? > And Terry and others - might I suggest reading the "Exhaustive Gasoline > FAQ" parts 1 to 4 posted and made available numerous places on the net. > This will explain many of your fuel questions with enough provable theory > so that you don't get snake oiled or side tracked into fantasy land. Methinks you're not keeping track of who said what. > Final note. Diesel fuel contains ZERO oxygenates, ZERO alcohol's or ethers > and is as close to liquid COAL (straight carbon) Exactly why I mentioned it, although I doubt it's zero oxygenates, being a refined petro-chemical liquid and all. > as can be made and meet > other requirements. The ENERGY in a fuel is very closely related to the > amount of carbon available to combine with oxygen, and pre-combining > oxygen in effect pre-burns that portion of the fuel. Sorry - no plasmaizing > puke yellow page magic today boys. You're repeating yourself, and I got it before the first time. And I didn't say anything too serious about pre-combining oxygen with the rest of the fuel charge,(you keep referring to oxygen as if it's not part of the fuel), I mentioned compressing cold air into the injector stream. If you think that "pre-combines it" you need a little chemistry refresher yourself. I didn't necessarily even mean mixing it with the liquid fuel. It could go in as compressed "bubbles" between packets of liquid fuel, (like air bubbles in a water hose). Anyone that's ever run a water hose knows what happens when you get air bubbles in the water stream. Since the liquid is not particularly compressible, the air takes all of the compression, and when it reaches the nozzle breaks out and atomizes the water in the immediate vicinity because of the expansion front being released in all directions. > Further, comparing gasoline to diesel > requiring special fuels ain't in the realm of reality. It took Fuel Injection > about > 70 plus years to equal a properly tuned high performance carb such as a > Weber. That's because Fuel Injection needs Electronic Computerized Control to work half ass. When was THAT invented? (See I can shout too) :-0 For that matter, any carb that works half ass is a direct result of computer technology. > Further, after the fuel and air are mixed, there is NO Difference in > combustion Huh? You must be a flat earth type. Cars move. They go up, (air's thinner there you know, partial pressure of gasses and all that), and they go down, (air's more dense there you know), and it also gets hotter and colder and many other things at both altitudes, with corresponding effects), so I have a little difficulty with your "after the fuel and air are mixed" generality. I assume you mean a specific fuel formulation at a specific compression ratio, with a specific "air" characteristic, and by mixing you mean a perfectly uniform distribution of the constituents in the charge? (among other things, such as dew point, distance in manifold to combustion chamber, etc. etc...) You don't get evenly uniform combustion in the same cylinder between strokes for chrisesake. - so mixing a special fuel for one or the other is right up there > with SLICK 50 and the POGUE carburetor and the fuel line magnet. Regional > differences in temp, altitude, humidity etc swamp any difference blending > special fuels would make Assuming you were just pouring gas into the manifold with a gas can, and you're contradicting yourself. I thought you said > Further, after the fuel and air are mixed, there is NO Difference in > combustion > with todays STREET state of the art and would be POLITICAL suicide. I wasn't aware that POLITICIANS were elected on their position with repect to the efficiencies of fuel injection. And if you don't think that fuel injection can be more efficient with a designed fuel than carb's are with any kind of fuel, perhaps you should read the FAQ. AND QUIT INCLUDING ME IN THE INTRINSIC FREE ENERGY POQUE SLICK MAGNET CROWD OF CRAPHEADS!!! Terry ------------------------------ From: Seth Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 16:13:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: EFI Well, the list was getting slow for a while... at least it looks like we have the beginnings of a good flame war going. Seriously, if anyone has the URL of the gasoline faq, I'd like it. Seth ------------------------------ From: "Christopher G. Moog" Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 19:39:48 -0400 Subject: Re: EFI Terry Martin wrote: > Robert Harris wrote: > > The more oxygen a fuel contains - the lower the power > > density of the fuel, and the more of the fuel you have to > > burn to make the same level of power. > Any hydrocarbon based fuel with oxygen has already been partially combusted. Methanol is partially burned methane. I think what Terry is asking is, is there a way to get additional oxygen into the combustion chamber? If so the standard ways of doing this is Nitrious Oxide (NO). When released from its pressurized bottle NO disassociates and forms N2 and O2. Since the amount of nitrogen is equal to the amount of oxygen more power can be made (remember air is 21% oxygen not the 50% contained in NO) this allows an engine operating with NO to make more power (twice as much if only NO and no air is used). Straight oxygen is not used for several reasons, the power levels would be too high melting pistons; and more imporantly a fuel pure oxgen mixture would be extremely easy to ignite causing intake explosions. Another way of increasing oxygen is to use other nitrogen bonded oxygen containing compounds such as nitro-methane (CH3NO2). Here the extra oxygen is released as the mixture is compressed resulting is additional power since high fuel to air ratios can be used. Now lets get back to EFI systems. ------------------------------ From: "Robert Harris" Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 17:09:07 -0700 Subject: http://www.cs.ruu.nl/wais/html/na-dir/autos/gasoline-faq/.html This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_01BCB0B0.6E749CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NO MAGIC - no bs - just da FAQ's maam Now can we stay with EFI or Engine Management at least - Thanks to some of your posting's I'm over half way to my bi-fuel injection system design and am actually buying PARTS!!!! "When some one gets something for nothing - some one else gets nothing for something " If the first ingredient ain't Habanero, then the rest don't matter. Robert Harris - ------=_NextPart_000_01BCB0B0.6E749CC0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="gasoline-faq.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: gasoline-faq (Internet Shortcut) Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="gasoline-faq.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.cs.ruu.nl/wais/html/na-dir/autos/gasoline-faq/.html - ------=_NextPart_000_01BCB0B0.6E749CC0-- ------------------------------ From: Kevin Timmerman Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 20:55:45 -0400 Subject: RE: Gas FAQ http://www.landfield.com/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/preamble.html On Sunday, August 24, 1997 7:14 PM, Seth [SMTP:n9540517@xxx.edu] wrote: > Well, the list was getting slow for a while... at least it looks like we > have the beginnings of a good flame war going. Seriously, if anyone has > the URL of the gasoline faq, I'd like it. ------------------------------ From: A70Duster@xxx.com Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 21:13:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: EFI (Nitrous) Nitrous Oxide is actually two Nitrogens and one Oxygen, also known as laughing gas. See ya, Mike ------------------------------ From: Terry Martin Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 18:21:00 -0700 Subject: Re: EFI & furthermore Terry Martin wrote: > > Robert Harris wrote: > > > > Dah - dere is a more saturated fuel available Who said the saturation was the operative concept? Water is a hell of a lot more "saturated" with oxygen than methanol. You wouldn't be suggesting that we should mix water with the fuel to get at the oxygen? It's the displacement of nitrogen, being a primary obstacle to a heat engine, that is the concept. If you can lower the overall "air" requirement, nitrogen making up 80% of it, you get rid of nitrogen in the fuel charge at a rate of 8:1. Nitrogen also gobbles up oxygen with no appreciable energy return, just NOX, & excluding it from the process has a big return in volumetric efficiency. It leaves more free oxygen to combine with the liquid fuel in one stroke. > > The more oxygen a fuel contains - the lower the power > > density of the fuel, and the more of the fuel you have to > > burn to make the same level of power. Really? I guess Nasau missed that part when they decided to bolt solid fuel boosters to the shuttle. > > And since the oxygenation of fuel is NOT for POWER nor for > > MILEAGE nor to make CARBS work better, but is for a cheap ass > > way of reducing certain emissions in ALL engines and causes > > an INCREASE in other type emissions, more is not BETTER! Let me get this straight. If I supply pure oxygen to the intake, (that being the mostest), I don't get to decrease the liquid fuel, and get no more volumetric efficiency and more emissions for the same output? I think I better put my feet up and think on this one a while. Hmmmm. Nope, you're full of crap. > > By the way, NOX is related to combustion TEMP, I think maybe that's because the air charge is 80% nitrogen? So, to get the oxygen and the liquid fuel together to release energy, you have to have all those oxygen molecules crashing into nitrogen molecules, and the hotter it is the harder they slam. Hmmm, sounds to me like it's more related to the presence of nitrogen. > > Final note. I really, really doubt that. > > Diesel fuel contains ZERO oxygenates, ZERO alcohol's or ethers > > and is as close to liquid COAL (straight carbon) I believe here would be a good place to interject the much much afore mentioned nut place, the HIMAC site, where-in some basic petroleum refinement principles, such as thermal catalytic cracking are mentioned. AND DON'T ASSOCIATE ME WITH THAT PLACE, (I thought shouting was in order because of previous dim-wittery). Above dis-claimer articulated, how do you think they get diesel fuel in the first place? It doesn't lie around in puddles in most places. Before going off about everyone that mentions thermal catalytic cracking is a nut-case, read up on petroleum refinement processes. I realize that everybody is only as intelligent as their particular level of stupidity, however, with stupid being the benchmark, somebody recognized that thermal catalytic cracking is a valid method for breaking larger molecules down into smaller, more consistently sized, and useful products, like diesel fuel. > > The ENERGY in a fuel is very closely related to the > > amount of carbon available to combine with oxygen, Really? I guess the guys flying the shuttle, (my favorite bird), had better start shoveling coal into the big hydrogen tank. > > and pre-combining > > oxygen in effect pre-burns that portion of the fuel. Pre-burns? Pre-burns? What idiot would put pre-burned fuel into a system as a primary energy source? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and guess you made a typing mistake, which should have been pre-dissolved, not pre-burned. AND QUIT INCLUDING ME IN THE INTRINSIC FREE ENERGY POQUE SLICK MAGNET THERMODYNAMICS DEFIES QUANTUM MECHANICS CROWD OF CRAPHEADS!!! I thought I better include that again, just to be sure I don't get sent to the back of the bus, serial that is. Baah, probably nobody remembers the Beverly Hillbillies anyhow. :-{} Terry ------------------------------ From: Terry Martin Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 18:41:44 -0700 Subject: Re: EFI Christopher G. Moog wrote: > > Terry Martin wrote: > I think what Terry is asking is, is there a way to get additional oxygen > into the combustion chamber? Thank-you, but not altogether. More like displacing nitrogen. > If so the standard ways of doing this is > Nitrious Oxide (NO). I doubt Grandma want's her Caddy Nitro equipped. :-) > Straight oxygen is not used for several reasons, the power > levels would be too high melting pistons; That's a material design problem, not a fuel delivery one, other than Oxy is too expensive to come by in a pure form. There has been a lot of goings on with ceramics that will probably sooner or later come together with increased efficieny fuel delivery. > and more imporantly a fuel > pure oxgen mixture would be extremely easy to ignite causing intake > explosions. Not if it was injected. Wait for the valve to close and then blast away at the most leveraged part of the power stroke. > Now lets get back to EFI systems. We left them? Jeez, I'm really getting lost. Terry ------------------------------ From: Terry Martin Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 19:10:31 -0700 Subject: Robert Harris Thanks for the pointer to the faq. It was informative, particularly with reference to my use of the phrase oxygenation of fuel. My use of the the term is intended to mean dissolved content of oxygen, where-as the apparent proper use of the term means something quite different. I am here to learn. Terry ------------------------------ From: Shane Eric Taylour Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 12:44:52 +1000 (EST) Subject: Sourcing Ignition Maps for Cars (Rover) Howdy electromaniacs. Does anyone know how ignition advance maps can be obtained for cars? In particular, I am after the ignition advance map for a Rover Mini. I am designing a distributorless ignition system and it would be ideal if the ignition advance map could be obtained (i.e. ignition advance vs. revs vs. manifold pressure). Could someone provide the map for this (or a similar car), or direct me to where I could source one? Alternatively, how can the ignition advance for given revs and manifold pressure be calculated? Thanks Heaps. Shane, (taylour@xxx.au) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Shane Eric Taylour, Stud.I.E.Aust (taylour@xxx.au) Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology (Melbourne, Australia) '77 Leyland Mini Clubman - "Max" '78 Leyland Mini Clubman 'S' - un-named and in hibernation "He who is afraid to ask is ashamed of learning." - Danish Proverb "Two roads diverged in a broken wood. I took the one less traveled by." - Robert Frost ------------------------------ From: Shane Eric Taylour Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 12:50:09 +1000 (EST) Subject: Electronic (uC ccontrolled) ignition Hi, Does anyone know how the ignition timing is done on distributorless ignition systems when cranking the engine? How is the ignition timed when the crank is not turning over at constant revs? It may take several attempts at cranking the engine before the ignition fires. How then, do any reference marks on the crankshaft/flywheel apply when starting? Any thoughts on the subject appreciated. Best Regards, Shane, (taylour@xxx.au) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Shane Eric Taylour, Stud.I.E.Aust (taylour@xxx.au) Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology (Melbourne, Australia) '77 Leyland Mini Clubman - "Max" '78 Leyland Mini Clubman 'S' - un-named and in hibernation "He who is afraid to ask is ashamed of learning." - Danish Proverb "Two roads diverged in a broken wood. I took the one less traveled by." - Robert Frost ------------------------------ From: lambs@xxx.au (Stephen Lamb) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 13:36:19 +1000 Subject: Re: Sourcing Ignition Maps for Cars (Rover) >Does anyone know how ignition advance maps can be obtained for cars? > >In particular, I am after the ignition advance map for a Rover Mini. For a standard engine this info should be in the workshop manual [then again, let's face it, it is British, :-)] For a modified engine try one of the Mini specialists, eg: Link Automotive (Mitcham) or possibly: Gilspeed - mainly sprites, but a similar engine Otherwise try someone like Scorcher Ignition, also in Mitcham. Cheers Stephen Lamb Dept. of Defence DSTO, AMRL 506 Lorimer Street Fishermans Bend VIC 3207 Australia Tel: +61 3 9626 7525 Fax: +61 3 9626 7089 IZCC #180 ------------------------------ From: "Robert Harris" Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 20:50:06 -0700 Subject: Re: EFI & furthermore One last time - please read the FAQ's just posted. Words have meanings, - chemical, physical, electrical etc terms have fairly exact meanings. Use them as they are defined - when you don't you confuse the shit out of everyone and embarrass yourself and needlessly throw fire onto fuel. Thought trains, concepts etc. get radically misunderstood when everyone is not speaking the same language. Remember, we are not politicians, seeking to deceive, just people trying to do what we can for our own personal needs. "When some one gets something for nothing - some one else gets nothing for something " If the first ingredient ain't Habanero, then the rest don't matter. Robert Harris - ---------- > From: Terry Martin > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: EFI & furthermore > Date: Sunday, August 24, 1997 6:21 PM > > Terry Martin wrote: > > > > Robert Harris wrote: > > > > > > Dah - dere is a more saturated fuel available > > Who said the saturation was the operative concept? Water is a hell of a > lot more "saturated" with oxygen than methanol. You wouldn't be > suggesting that we should mix water with the fuel to get at the oxygen? > It's the displacement of nitrogen, being a primary obstacle to a heat > engine, that is the concept. If you can lower the overall "air" > requirement, nitrogen making up 80% of it, you get rid of nitrogen in > the fuel charge at a rate of 8:1. > > Nitrogen also gobbles up oxygen with no appreciable energy return, just > NOX, & excluding it from the process has a big return in volumetric > efficiency. It leaves more free oxygen to combine with the liquid fuel > in one stroke. > > > > The more oxygen a fuel contains - the lower the power > > > density of the fuel, and the more of the fuel you have to > > > burn to make the same level of power. > > Really? I guess Nasau missed that part when they decided to bolt solid > fuel boosters to the shuttle. > > > > And since the oxygenation of fuel is NOT for POWER nor for > > > MILEAGE nor to make CARBS work better, but is for a cheap ass > > > way of reducing certain emissions in ALL engines and causes > > > an INCREASE in other type emissions, more is not BETTER! > > Let me get this straight. If I supply pure oxygen to the intake, (that > being the mostest), I don't get to decrease the liquid fuel, and get no > more volumetric efficiency and more emissions for the same output? > > I think I better put my feet up and think on this one a while. Hmmmm. > Nope, you're full of crap. > > > > By the way, NOX is related to combustion TEMP, > > I think maybe that's because the air charge is 80% nitrogen? So, to get > the oxygen and the liquid fuel together to release energy, you have to > have all those oxygen molecules crashing into nitrogen molecules, and > the hotter it is the harder they slam. Hmmm, sounds to me like it's more > related to the presence of nitrogen. > > > > Final note. > > I really, really doubt that. > > > > Diesel fuel contains ZERO oxygenates, ZERO alcohol's or ethers > > > and is as close to liquid COAL (straight carbon) > > I believe here would be a good place to interject the much much afore > mentioned nut place, the HIMAC site, where-in some basic petroleum > refinement principles, such as thermal catalytic cracking are mentioned. > AND DON'T ASSOCIATE ME WITH THAT PLACE, (I thought shouting was in order > because of previous dim-wittery). > > Above dis-claimer articulated, how do you think they get diesel fuel in > the first place? It doesn't lie around in puddles in most places. Before > going off about everyone that mentions thermal catalytic cracking is a > nut-case, read up on petroleum refinement processes. I realize that > everybody is only as intelligent as their particular level of stupidity, > however, with stupid being the benchmark, somebody recognized that > thermal catalytic cracking is a valid method for breaking larger > molecules down into smaller, more consistently sized, and useful > products, like diesel fuel. > > > > The ENERGY in a fuel is very closely related to the > > > amount of carbon available to combine with oxygen, > > Really? I guess the guys flying the shuttle, (my favorite bird), had > better start shoveling coal into the big hydrogen tank. > > > > and pre-combining > > > oxygen in effect pre-burns that portion of the fuel. > > Pre-burns? Pre-burns? What idiot would put pre-burned fuel into a system > as a primary energy source? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and > guess you made a typing mistake, which should have been pre-dissolved, > not pre-burned. > > AND QUIT INCLUDING ME IN THE INTRINSIC FREE ENERGY POQUE SLICK MAGNET > THERMODYNAMICS DEFIES QUANTUM MECHANICS > CROWD OF CRAPHEADS!!! > > I thought I better include that again, just to be sure I don't get sent > to the back of the bus, serial that is. Baah, probably nobody remembers > the Beverly Hillbillies anyhow. :-{} > > Terry ------------------------------ From: Geoff Watts Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 12:16:14 -0000 Subject: RE: BOSCH stuff I think the superchips argument is fair. If they have a shit-hot development team who dream about reading maps from hex dumps, and they've seen almost any ECU on the market, then a couple of hours on the dyno should see fairly good results. geoff - -----Original Message----- From: Steve Meade [SMTP:smeade@xxx.com] Sent: Saturday, August 23, 1997 9:23 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: BOSCH stuff - ---------- > From: Land Shark > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: BOSCH stuff > Date: Friday, August 22, 1997 11:20 PM > > At 12:57 PM 8/22/97 -0700, you wrote: > > > Motronic all 944's in the US are Motronic DME > Well, that's certainly good news since now I know that it has chip-adjustable timing. The factory chip only requires 87 octane so I think there may be some gain in timing advancement. > If you tell me your 0 261 number, I can tell you what version > any (maybe) the processor type/EPROM type > Just went out and it is a 0 261 200 077 box. I had one of your chips in my BMW and was wondering if you were going to get into Porsche chips. :) I say that with half seriousness since I can only find 3 companies making chips for my car: Superchips: I'm worried when they say on their web site, "We can make a chip for any car in a couple of hours." Weltmeister: These chips are actually made by Dinan, and I know yours are better than that. Autothority: Can I really trust a chip from the same company that makes the "Flowtech" noise system? Well, if you find out anything on my box just drop me a line. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Steve Meade smeade@xxx.com > Jim C ------------------------------ From: Johnny Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 22:14:35 -0700 Subject: Re: Electronic (uC ccontrolled) ignition Shane Eric Taylour wrote: > > Hi, > > Does anyone know how the ignition timing is done on distributorless > ignition systems when cranking the engine? How is the ignition timed when > the crank is not turning over at constant revs? > > It may take several attempts at cranking the engine before the ignition > fires. How then, do any reference marks on the crankshaft/flywheel apply > when starting? > > Any thoughts on the subject appreciated. > > Best Regards, > > Shane, > (taylour@xxx.au) It usually takes one full revolution to sync on whatever the sync device might be (like a couple of missing teeth on the crank wheel). After that each tooth is counted and it doesn't really matter if it occurs at cranking speed or not. Cranking speed is fast enough for accurate tooth count. It doesn't matter that it's not occuring at a constant speed. In the most technical terms, piston engines are never turning at a constant speed. The crankshaft is always either increasing or decreasing in speed. The CPU counts each tooth regardless. Measuring the time since the last tooth went by is how it knows if the engine is speeding up or slowing down, even after just a few degrees of rotation. Especially if there are 60 teeth on the crank wheel. This gives a fairly fine resolution to base engine speed and crank position on. - -j- ------------------------------ From: "David and Susan Slanker" Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 19:23:26 -1000 Subject: Re: Haltech phone & address Was I supose to get this? Dave - ---------- > From: Daniel Burk > To: Wilkrod@xxx.com > Cc: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Haltech phone & address > Date: Friday, August 15, 1997 6:17 PM > > Jeff: > > I got their catalog right here. Call 'em and ask for Dale. > Very friendly bunch of folks. If you whine a little (like me) > they'll probably give you the stuff at jobber cost. > > Dan > > Haltech > Engine Management Technology, Inc. > 2156 West Northwest Hwy. #309 > Dallas, Texas 75220 USA > > Phone: (972)831-9800 > Fax: (972)831-9802 ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #287 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".