DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, 27 August 1997 Volume 02 : Number 292 In this issue: Re: O2 sensor buffering/interfacing Re: More Coil-on-Plug Re: injection timing Re: injection timing Re: O2 sensor buffering/interfacing Need aftermarket ECM Re: O2 sensor buffering/interfacing Microcontrollers used in OEM systems Re: Microcontrollers used in OEM systems (Fwd) Re: cranking ignition (fwd) Re: O2 sensor buffering/interfacing Re: Converting CFM to Lbs/min Re: Microcontrollers used in OEM systems Re: Interface specs for an Audi 80 Re[2]: Ignition timing set-up Re: Microcontrollers used in OEM systems Backpressure and torque Re: Microcontrollers used in OEM systems See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilkrod@xxx.com Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 08:48:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: O2 sensor buffering/interfacing Hi Tom, I've been looking for a circuit to adj. fuel mix. Could I have a look at the one you mentioned. Thanks Regards Jeff ------------------------------ From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 02:29:00 -0500 Subject: Re: More Coil-on-Plug - -> I recall years ago when SAAB came out with their engine management - -> system. One of the big points was that it had a coil-on-plug setup. - -> It may be something to check out. SAAB's PR people sure smoked everyone on that "new idea." Ford tractors had coil-on-plug in my grandfather's day. Their use-the-spark-gap-as-pressure-sensor idea as implemented in their Trionic system really *is* a nifty idea. I'm surprised it hasn't caught on. ------------------------------ From: "Dave J. Andruczyk" Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 09:52:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: injection timing > Actually the CIS (K-jetronic) is closed loop. The system pressure is set No it isn't, the closed loop version is K-jetronic with lambda ( which is on your 911, but not on my 924. > up to run rich (good for WOT) and leans the system out to stoic by letting > some air 'leak' around the metering flap (or is this the 'freq valve' you > refer to in the KE-jetronic?) Anyway, the only real difference in leaning > the mixture and lowering the fuel pressure is that you could probably > reduce the idle speed a little bit more in the fuel-P system. My 83 3.0L > 911 (last year w/ CIS) used to idle at 800-1000 rpm, but now w/ a K&N air > filt idles at 1500. Something about improved flow;) BTW, it still idles > at 800-1000 at startup, but runs rich until the O2 sensor heats and puts > the system in closed loop;) I SHOULD go in and set the idle speed better > by adjusting the flap or throttle body, but what's wrong w/ running a > little rich at startup;) (BTW, I also have the air-intake pop off valve to > keep the rare backfire on VERY cold mornings from blowing up my airbox). To set the idle on yours, there is a bypass air screw somewhere near the throttle butterfly. DO NOT adjust the sensor plate, or you'll really screw up the mix throughout the band. There is an allen screw somewhere on the air flow sensor assembly. ( visible thru a tiny hole, 3mm in size) that controls the "general fuel mix", and is used to set Base CO adjustment ( usually at idle.) Dave ------------------------------ From: "Dave J. Andruczyk" Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 09:55:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: injection timing > You're getting smooth idle at 300 rpm? And good off idle response? My 8V > Scirocco with CIS had good response, most 16Vs that I've driven, or talked > to the owners of, don't seem to have nearly as good response as the 8Vs. > But I don't recall it idling down anywhere near to 300 rpm smoothly. Its weird, I admit it, IT might be due to the mass of the flywheel, but I don't have the specs of a VW or audi,s to compare their weight. Its kinds funny thought to just watch the camshaft turn over that slow ( 150 rpm's..) The idle is "smooth" sounding, thought the motion is rather pulse-ish, from the combustion, but the engine isn't shaking. the 8 valve 924 engine is and impressive piece. Its ironic to me that the extremely simple CIS system gives such a smooth running system. Dave ------------------------------ From: swagaero Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 16:41:41 -0700 Subject: Re: O2 sensor buffering/interfacing Wilkrod@xxx.com wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > I've been looking for a circuit to adj. fuel mix. Could I have a look at the > one you mentioned. > Thanks > Regards > Jeff What type of system are you using?? Steve Parkman ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.com (dzorde) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 07:01:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need aftermarket ECM Help, help, help Can anyone help. A mate of mine is after an old analogue Microtech ECU, preferably with the harness (ohh, and it must work). He wants it for playing around with on his race car. I can't remember, but was someone on the list here in OZ selling one ? I have already spoken to Microtech to see if they still had any units, but to no avail, they only have the new digital units available. If someone has a working unit they want to part with, send me a mail and I'll relay the info. Thanks Dan dzorde@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Tom Cloud Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 09:05:43 -0500 Subject: Re: O2 sensor buffering/interfacing - --=====================_872698041==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Hi Tom, > >I've been looking for a circuit to adj. fuel mix. Could I have a look at the >one you mentioned. >Thanks >Regards >Jeff made circuit on Mac ... xfr to PC and GIF format sorta screwed the alpha chars -- the op-amp is LM-324 .... tell me if there's anything else you can't read (the meter shown is just to show where one can hook a meter to monitor the EGO) - --=====================_872698041==_ Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="EGA-OFF2.GIF"; x-mac-type="42494E41"; x-mac-creator="6D646F73" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="EGA-OFF2.GIF" R0lGODdhTAIAA4AAAP///wAAACwAAAAATAIAAwAC/4SPqcvtD6OctNqLs968+w+G4kiW5omm6sq2 7gvH8kzX9o3n+s73/g8MCofEovGITCqXzKbzCY1Kp9Sq9YrNarfcrvcLDovH5LL5jE6r1+y2+w2P y+f0uv2Oz+v3/L7/DxgoOEhYaHiImKi4yNjo+AgZKTlJWWl5iZmpucnZ6fkJGio6SlpqeoqaqrrK 2ur6ChsrO0tba3uLm6u7y9vr+wscLDxMXGx8jJysvMzc7PwMHS09TV1tfY2drb3N3e39DR4uPk5e bn6Onq6+zt7u/g4fLz9PX29/j5+vv8/f7/8PMKDAgQQLGjyIMKHChQwbOnwIMaLEiRQrWryIMaPG 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Kasimirsky" Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:07:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Microcontrollers used in OEM systems Hey everyone, I realize this isn't really a "true" DIY-EFI question, but I'm hoping someone out there with experience digging into OEM systems can give me some help. Does anyone know what GM and Ford use for "brains" in their engine management hardware? I'm trying to talk my boss into letting me attend a few microprocessor classes and the classes use Motorola 6811 microcontrollers. It would help the arguement if Ford, and particularly GM, used a variant of this puppy in their systems. Email please, since I don't think the general list will be interested in the answer to this one. Thanks in advance for the help and I apologise for the wasted bandwidth. Michael T. Kasimirsky ----> mtk@xxx.edu Days: Staff Engineer or mk4u@xxx.edu ASTM Test Monitoring Center Phi Gamma Delta, Nights: 1992 Suzuki GSX-R750 Pilot NRA Life Member, AMA Member 1990 Yamaha FZR400 Superbike Racer DoD #1848 1991 Suzuki GSF400 Bandit Mechanic WERA Provisional Novice #753 ------------------------------ From: swagaero Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 17:16:53 -0700 Subject: Re: Microcontrollers used in OEM systems Michael T. Kasimirsky wrote: > > Hey everyone, > > I realize this isn't really a "true" DIY-EFI question, but I'm hoping > someone out there with experience digging into OEM systems can give me > some help. Does anyone know what GM and Ford use for "brains" in their > engine management hardware? > > I'm trying to talk my boss into letting me attend a few microprocessor > classes and the classes use Motorola 6811 microcontrollers. It would help > the arguement if Ford, and particularly GM, used a variant of this puppy > in their systems. Email please, since I don't think the general list > will be interested in the answer to this one. Thanks in advance for the > help and I apologise for the wasted bandwidth. > > Michael T. Kasimirsky ----> mtk@xxx.edu > Days: Staff Engineer or mk4u@xxx.edu > ASTM Test Monitoring Center Phi Gamma Delta, > Nights: 1992 Suzuki GSX-R750 Pilot NRA Life Member, AMA Member > 1990 Yamaha FZR400 Superbike Racer DoD #1848 > 1991 Suzuki GSF400 Bandit Mechanic WERA Provisional Novice #753 GM's newer systems use a dirvative of the 68hc Motorola system. sTEVE ------------------------------ From: butler@xxx.com (Jim Butler) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:17:10 -0400 Subject: (Fwd) Re: cranking ignition (fwd) I passed this email, as it appeared on the Beretta list via the DIY_EFI list, to SuperChips (see below) via personal email and this was their reply. I believe that someone on one of the lists later posted a similar comment, i.e., that it was a different company than what we commonly think of when we hear "Superchips". FWIW. I have no interest in this company in any way. Jim - -- Jim Butler - --- Forwarded mail from Michael Short Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:34:24 -0400 To: butler@xxx.com (Jim Butler) From: Michael Short Subject: Re: cranking ignition (fwd) Hello Jim, Yeah, we got hurt on that one. It was done by a company called ADS in Texas selling a product that they call a "Superchip". It was not Superchips Inc. If you see any of our advertizements you will notice a disclaimer at the bottom stating that we do not have anything to do with ADS and thier "Superchip". Anything that you can do to help clear up this confusion will be appreciated. Thanks Mike S At 07:14 PM 8/26/97 -0400, you wrote: > > Guys, I got this on the Beretta list and thought you might have >something to say about. I'm certainly interested! > > Thanks, > > Jim > >-- >Jim Butler > > >--- Forwarded mail from beretta@xxx.Com > >Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 19:02:49 -0400 (EDT) >From: Jody Shapiro >To: beretta@xxx.Com >Subject: [BerettaNet] Re: cranking ignition (fwd) >Reply-To: beretta@xxx.Com > >From: Jody Shapiro > >Interesting note on SuperChips from the diy_efi list: > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 13:35:00 PDT >Reply-To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >Subject: Re: cranking ignition > > <<< > Does anyone know how the ignition timing is done on distributorless > ignition systems when cranking the engine? How is the ignition timed > when > the crank is not turning over at constant revs >>> > > Well on the GN's there is an EST module "bypass" mode for starting; > the timing is fixed at some hardwired value until the rpm exceeds 400 > or so, where the timing duties are then handed over to the ECM. The > crank sensor works with a cam position sensor to determine phase. > Crank rpm is never totally "constant", nor does it need to be. > > <<< > Superchips: I'm worried when they say on their web site, "We can > make a chip for any car in a couple of hours." >>> > > You are right to be wary here; I hear that these fine folks were the > proprieters of a real chip "scam" that came to light several years > ago; something about selling a power chip for a Nissan turbo that was > totally stock with a Stuperchips decal on it. The only power increase > came from a cheapo boost bleeder valve sold with it. > > > - ---End of forwarded mail from Michael Short ------------------------------ From: Tom Cloud Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:54:59 -0500 Subject: Re: O2 sensor buffering/interfacing oops .... sorry, didn't mean to send to whole list ........ >Hi Tom, > >I've been looking for a circuit to adj. fuel mix. Could I have a look at the >one you mentioned. >Thanks >Regards >Jeff made circuit on Mac ... xfr to PC and GIF format sorta screwed the alpha chars -- the op-amp is LM-324 .... tell me if there's anything else you can't read (the meter shown is just to show where one can hook a meter to monitor the EGO) 8^( Tom Cloud He who laughs last thinks slowest ------------------------------ From: A70Duster@xxx.com Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:34:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Converting CFM to Lbs/min I did a convertion a little while ago. It's at 20 C and 1 atm. It converted CFM to g/sec CFM * 0.56 = g/sec So multiply 0.56 by 60 sec/min and divide by 454 g/Lbs. The bottme line is CFM * 0.074 = Lbs/min For different temps, multiply by the ratio by 528/(New temp) (This is in Farenheit) From the Ideal Gas Law Good Hunting, Mike ------------------------------ From: "Mike Palmer" Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:39:13 EST5DST Subject: Re: Microcontrollers used in OEM systems > Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:07:49 -0400 (EDT) > From: "Michael T. Kasimirsky" > To: DIY-EFI Mailing List > Subject: Microcontrollers used in OEM systems > Reply-to: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Hey everyone, > > I realize this isn't really a "true" DIY-EFI question, but I'm hoping > someone out there with experience digging into OEM systems can give me > some help. Does anyone know what GM and Ford use for "brains" in their > engine management hardware? > > I'm trying to talk my boss into letting me attend a few microprocessor > classes and the classes use Motorola 6811 microcontrollers. It would help > the arguement if Ford, and particularly GM, used a variant of this puppy > in their systems. Email please, since I don't think the general list > will be interested in the answer to this one. Thanks in advance for the > help and I apologise for the wasted bandwidth. GM has definitely used 'HC11-cores in their P4s. My 2.5L Ford Probe GT with a NipponDenso PCM also uses an HC11 core. They are extensively reworked mind you - they could almost be termed ASICs. Ford I believe has used Intel parts in their EEC systems. On this note, anybody ever figured out what some of the registers in the HC11 at $1040 and above are used for? How about those regs at, say, $1001 or $1006 etc that are mysteriously labelled "reserved" in the data sheets. Are these register locations left to the discretion of the Delcos and the NDs of the world to do as they please or is there a universal functionality associated with them? - - Mike - ------------------------------------------ 1994 Probe GT Leather/PMoonroof/5-speed "You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll hurl..." - ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ From: Mikael Andersson Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:26:37 +0200 Subject: Re: Interface specs for an Audi 80 Weynand Kuijpers wrote: > Hay People, > > First of all thank you all for the responses on my previous question. > (It was about a not so good running engine in my Audi 80, the problem > is not completely fixed, but the mechanics are going to work on it > next monday). > > The next questions triggered by other questions on this list, is > like: has anyone any idea how to interface with the BOSCH mono > jetronic > EFI system in a Audi 80, build in '90? It there a factory installed > plug that is usable to extract data from the engine, or must I > make my own interface (i'm not so familiar with mechanical/car > engineering, but electronincs and programming are no problem). > > Thanx in advance, > > Groets, Weynand > > > "Akta Gamat!" > > > > Leeloo, "5th element" > > > -------------------------oOOO------OOOo---------------------------------- > > | Weynand > Kuijpers | > | Unix Support Nederland Unix admin Fokker Space > B.V. | > | Tel. :070-3630462 Tel > 071-5245262 | > | Fax :070-3630470 Email : > unix.admin@xxx.nl| > | Email :weynand@xxx.nl > w.kuijpers@xxx.nl| > | > .oooO | > | ( ) > Oooo. | > ------------------------- \ (-----( > )---------------------------------- > \_) ) / > (_/ There is a factory connection for reading the engines error codes, the codes are blink inpulses which can be read by either an LED test light or by monitoring the error indicating light on the dashboard. I have a drawing on the cabels you need to start the blink sequence, and the errorcodes if you are intrested. Mike. ------------------------------ From: Mark Eidson Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 11:03:00 PDT Subject: Re[2]: Ignition timing set-up Text item: Its been awhile since I looked at the final advance curve I put in my Holley 4Di projection system on my 302, 224@xxx. In the Holley system the ignition is set by a map with RPM and throttle position as the x and y coordinates respectively. At idle, 700 RPM and no throttle, the advance is set to 10 degrees and ramps steeply to 42 degrees, max allowed, by 3000 PRM. I have more than 10 degrees advance at part throttle and low RPM. I had to run this advance at idle to pass admissions testing. I backed off the advance pretty quickly once the throttle opens more than half way as a preventive measure to avoid knocking, but I have not tried to set a real performance limit as yet since the FMX tranny broke after a couple of months. I had a lot of problems with backfire with the engine cold which was cured by adding in the advance a lot quicker. I guess this lines up with what everyone is saying about getting as much initial mechanical advance as possible at idle, this system lets you do more than springs and weights, but has no vacuum input, just throttle position. me ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Ignition timing set-up Author: owner-diy_efi-outgoing@xxx.edu at SMTPGATE Date: 8/26/97 10:48 AM > > Help ... I've done a lot of work rebuilding a Ford 351W for > a Bronco and am experiencing similar problems to what I had > when I first pitched the old variable venturi carb and EGR > for efi and a regular distributor and DuraSpark ignition > off a different vehicle. > > Here's the problem -- timing! (at least that's what I *think* > is the problem) > > If I set the timing to give good low end response (requires > 20 to 25 degrees advanced at 600 rpm, no vacuum), I get > clatter under load at high rpm's. > I've been battling much the same problem with my 351W DuraSpark/MSD-6A combo. I run a fairly warm cam (Comp-cams dual-pattern hydraulic), & recently switched from a Holley 650 to an Edelbrock 750. I've tried both ported & direct vacuum advance. I've turned the vacuum advance adjustment screw to its limit for least advance, and run direct vacuum presently, with about 10 degrees idle advance (mech). I ended up setting the carb fairly rich to reduce pre-ignition(?) at part throttle accel (like trying to maintain speed on an uphill grade in 5th). Then my O2 sensor says I'm a bit rich on level ground. Playing with the timing light in the garage, I see way beyond 30 degrees advance at 3000 RPM with the vacuum hooked up, causing pre-ignition. Like you, best idle is obtained with about 20 degrees advance (vacuum + mechanical). I wouldn't recommend setting idle mechanical advance beyond 12 degrees, or your total advance at 3000 will be over 30 (no vacuum), and thats not good. Although idle and startup suffer, I've had my best high-rpm operation with the idle advance (mechanical only) set around 6 degrees. Again, this keeps the ignition from being over advanced at high RPM. I have a terrible time with idle at 6 degrees though. Realistically, most of my problems are due to attempting to operate the engine outside its optimum point. I have a cam, carb, intake (Torker-II), and heads (Dart-II) that are intended for 3000-6000 RPM, yet I want to cruise at 2000 RPM in 5th. If the Vettes and Camarobirds can run so well and cruise at 1500, why can't I, right? The reason I can't is that I don't have EFI and EST, and to obtain my HP, I've compromised the low end. With megabucks of engineers, computers, labs, etc GM can analyze everything to the last nano-whatever, and balance the whole system. You and I are just hacking around the edges, experimenting by trial-and-error, with a very limited number of trials. Supposedly you can take the distributor apart and bend some tabs to limit total mechanical advance. I've tried, and found the tabs very hard to bend. I haven't tried hotter plugs, but maybe I should. So whats this have to do with EFI? Only an understanding of what works and what doesn't, and why I need an ECM! Oh, and another reason not to set your idle advance so high is wear and tear on your starter. I've burned up a few starters trying to start a warm engine with too much advance. - -- Matthew D. Sale, IC Development Engineer, Delco Electronics Corp. msale@xxx.net/~msale '69 Mustang 351W 5-spd (13.464@xxx. All responses are my own and should not be mistaken for those of Delco Electronics or General Motors. Text item: External Message Header The following mail header is for administrative use and may be ignored unless there are problems. ***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***. Reply-To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Precedence: bulk Sender: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] In-Reply-To: <9708261429.AA23908@xxx.edu> from "Tom Cloud" at Aug 26, 97 09:29:52 am Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 10:48:31 -0500 (EST) To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: Ignition timing set-up Message-Id: <199708261548.LAA15422@xxx.com> Received: by gocart.mot.delcoelect.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) id LAA15422 for diy_efi@xxx.edu; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 11:48 :31 -0400 From: Matt Sale Received: from gocart.mot.delcoelect.com by rabbit.mot.delcoelect.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA12421 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 10:48:30 -0500 Received: from rabbit.mot.delcoelect.com by dock.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA00309; Tue, 26 Aug 97 10:47:51 CDT Received: from dock.sps.mot.com by txbc.sps.mot.com with SMTP (1.37.109.24/16.2) id AA288080504; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 10:48:24 -0500 Received: from txbc.sps.mot.com by mogate.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.0) id AA03999 for diy_efi@xxx.edu; Tue, 26 Aug 97 08:48:25 MST Received: from mogate.sps.mot.com by spsem02.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email 2.1 10/25/93) id AA15050 for diy_efi@xxx.edu; Tue, 26 Aug 97 08:49:09 MST Received: from spsem02.sps.mot.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (94081 6.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA26945; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 11:4 9:11 -0400 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-outgoing id PAA26950; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 15:49:14 GMT Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu by pan.ch.intel.com (8.8.6/10.0i); Tue , 26 Aug 1997 16:59:02 GMT Received: from pan.ch.intel.com (pan.ch.intel.com [143.182.246.24]) by chmail.ch .intel.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA07074 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 09:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: owner-diy_efi-outgoing@xxx.edu ------------------------------ From: Matt Sale Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:49:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Microcontrollers used in OEM systems > > On this note, anybody ever figured out what some of the registers in > the HC11 at $1040 and above are used for? How about those regs at, > say, $1001 or $1006 etc that are mysteriously labelled "reserved" > in the data sheets. Are these register locations left to the > discretion of the Delcos and the NDs of the world to do as they > please or is there a universal functionality associated with them? > > Depends on the hc11 derivative. Each derivative has its own memory map (A8, F1, K4, E9, ...). "Reserved" generally means unimplemented. If you try to read one, you might get $FF, or you might get an address back, depending on the addressing mode & what was last driven on the internal data bus. And yes, there are application specific hc11 derivatives that are not available on the general market. - -- Matthew D. Sale, IC Development Engineer, Delco Electronics Corp. msale@xxx.net/~msale '69 Mustang 351W 5-spd (13.464@xxx. All responses are my own and should not be mistaken for those of Delco Electronics or General Motors. ------------------------------ From: "Keven D. Coates" Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 16:17:20 -0700 Subject: Backpressure and torque Tom wrote, >I keep hearing that the lack of exhaust back pressure >might be the cause of my lack of low-end torque (which >I can get back by advancing the timing, BTW) but then >I've read that relieving exhaust back pressure **never** >hurts low-end torque -- only that the engine needs to be >set up for it .... that removing exhaust back pressure >**always** increases torque and hp at **all** rpm's -- >and I've seen dyno curves to support that claim. I can't help but involve myself needlessly in a purely theoretical claim, so here it goes: I would disagree with the "always" and "all" words, with the clarification that what causes backpressure at higher rpms will sometimes mean higher exhaust velocity at lower rpms. When I had the stock '68 manifolds on my mustang (with a big cam, performer manifold, etc.) it had more backpressure for sure, but there is more. It had small exhaust manifold ports, and so had very high exhaust velocity. This caused it to idle much better, and very low rpm torque was slightly better. When I switched to 1 5/8" headers, the idle and very low rpm suffered. Why? Small primary runners, such as a a stock exhaust manifold, will create back pressure at higher rpms, but at lower rpms will create negative pressure waves from the high velocity of the air pulses going into a small runner. So, many stock manifolds will actually reduce backpressure at lower rpms (comparitive to a larger tube system), and therefore cause more torque at those rpms when compared with bigger primary headers. Back pressure can also cause more torque at lower rpms by slowing the fuel/air mixture from crossing right from the intake valve to the exhaust valve during valve overlap. This causes the same affect as closing the exhaust valve earlier. It will increase gas mileage (at that rpm) and torque by filling the cylinder more completely and not wasting as much fuel/air. Ferrari decided that an adjustable backpressure system was preferable over the increased complexity another system in their 355 (the one after the testarossa, whatever number that was). They found that they could increase low rpm torque through adjustable backpressure. Unfortunately the other affect of backpressure, whether it is caused by small primaries or other restriction is killing all higher rpm operation. My engine would barely rev to 5500 rpms with the '68 manifolds and the single 2" exhaust. After I replaced it with headers and dual 2.5" pipes, it would happily rev to 6500 rpm, with much more high rpm power. The same is true of intake manifolds to an even greater extent. The longer high velocity runners of the stock mustang manifold will almost always will low rpm torque battles with any bigger tube/shorter tube manifolds because of the high velocity ram effect of the intake pulses. But, it is too restrictive at higher rpms to make the horsepower of some of the other intakes. It's all a trade off, as usual. Well, that's it for my theoretical soap box. Hope you all enjoyed it! Best Regards, Keven Coates '68 stang Texas Instruments ------------------------------ From: "Mike Palmer" Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:24:24 EST5DST Subject: Re: Microcontrollers used in OEM systems > From: Matt Sale > Subject: Re: Microcontrollers used in OEM systems > > > Depends on the hc11 derivative. Each derivative has its own > memory map (A8, F1, K4, E9, ...). "Reserved" generally means > unimplemented. If you try to read one, > you might get $FF, or you might get an address back, depending > on the addressing mode & what was last driven on the internal > data bus. Yes...I'm aware of the differences between each of the commercially available variants like those you mention. But when Delco built the P4 for example, the core of the HC11 they apparently used was clearly different than that which the public can buy. For example, the registers aren't at $1xxx anymore and even resetting the COP timer seems wacky when compared to how the 'normal' HC11 does it. In my Nippon Denso Probe GT PCM, there are references to registers that are either labeled in every HC11 data book as "reserved" or are not documented at all (e.g. $1063). It seems N/D left many of the original HC11 registers mapped to $1xxx but are using those not identified by Motorola. So the makers can seem to get Motorola to customize the die for each application, hence my reference to "ASIC". I considered that the function of a register, say, $1063, might be predefined by Motorola and the makers would be free to make use of the functions provided there, and if so, maybe someone had figured some of them out. They just wouldn't fill the rest of the world in on these nifty regs. > > And yes, there are application specific hc11 derivatives that > are not available on the general market. > Yup. As I said, the N/D 84-pin PLCC or Delco's 16079434 (what I think is the processor :) are clearly, by virtue of the opcodes, running with HC11 cores, but they've been heavily massaged by Motorola to match the exact requirements of N/D or Delco or whomever. But it's funny that they'd go to what must be the huge expenditure of custom packaging alot of custom-designed silicon instead of just designing with what is commercially available (i.e. use an 'HC11E9 in expanded mode and an 'HC24 to get the lost ports back etc). Every chip under the 'hood' of a GM ECM seems to be custom...why not use automotive-grade commercially available stuff? Wouldn't that cost quite a bit less overall? > > -- > Matthew D. Sale, IC Development Engineer, Delco Electronics Corp. <*sigh*> cool job :) - - Mike - ------------------------------------------ 1994 Probe GT Leather/PMoonroof/5-speed "You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll hurl..." - ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #292 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".