DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, 28 August 1997 Volume 02 : Number 293 In this issue: Re: injection timing Re: Microcontrollers used in OEM systems Re: injection timing is their Re: Microcontrollers used in OEM systems Re: Ignition timing set-up Re: Ethanol & your internet publication [Fwd: Re: Ethanol & your internet publication] Oops, didn't mean to plug e-mail into discussion groups Re: is their Re: is their All the non-DYI-EFI crap I've put up here Oxygenates CDI, accelerometer Re: All the non-DYI-EFI crap I've put up here Re: All the non-DYI-EFI crap I've put up here Re: Oxygenates See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: firkins@xxx.au Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 07:53:52 +1000 Subject: Re: injection timing >Gasoline is an excellent solvent. Dissolves oil and grease >from everything - including valves, rings, cylinder walls and >nicely dilutes the oil - especially when the metal is cold. All >that nasty oil coated metal is stripped clean and shiny - a >good recommendation for running extra rich at cold idle.:) Seems to me that this is a good argument against running extra rich at cold idle. I seem to remember reading that something like 80% of the wear in a motor occurs during the first 30 secs of each cold start, before the lube system is working effectively. Cheers John Firkins ------------------------------ From: Matt Sale Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:35:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Microcontrollers used in OEM systems > > > But it's funny that they'd go to what must be the huge expenditure > of custom packaging alot of custom-designed silicon instead of just > designing with what is commercially available (i.e. use an 'HC11E9 in > expanded mode and an 'HC24 to get the lost ports back etc). Every > chip under the 'hood' of a GM ECM seems to be custom...why not use > automotive-grade commercially available stuff? Wouldn't that cost > quite a bit less overall? > Actually, when you spread the cost over several million parts per year, it makes quite a bit of sense to spend the extra time effort and money to create a custom derivative. Remember too that much of the chip design remains the same from derivative to derivative (CPU, timers, SPI/SCI), but some people need PWM's, some don't. Some need EEPROM, some don't. Some need A/D, some don't. Each of these functions carries a price tag on it. A chip with unused blocks wastes silicon, and silicon isn't free (despite what Mickeysoft thinks). Adding parts to boards to get functions that can be up-integrated wastes board space and incurs extra costs for the additional parts. You'd be amazed at how many 68300 family and TI parts we've commissioned, I know I am. Every electronic box in a car has a micro, or so it seems. The radio, ABS, air-bag, remote keyless entry, instrument cluster, HVAC control, and ECM each gets its own micro, at least in the high-end cars. Each box has a unique set of requirements, and a price/value. If it weren't for DE, you might not even have a 68332 for the EFI332 project. Printer companies, camera companies, even toy companies commission custom micros. Just look at Motorola's web site sometime, down in the AMCU and CSIC areas. Or look at how many variants of PICs exist from Microchip Technology. Every customer wants a part that exactly fits his application, no more, no less. - -- Matthew D. Sale, IC Development Engineer, Delco Electronics Corp. msale@xxx.net/~msale '69 Mustang 351W 5-spd (13.464@xxx. All responses are my own and should not be mistaken for those of Delco Electronics or General Motors. ------------------------------ From: "Jeffrey Engel" Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:28:34 +600 Subject: Re: injection timing You're right of course. I thought the original was humor. > From: firkins@xxx.au > Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 07:53:52 +1000 > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: injection timing > Reply-to: diy_efi@xxx.edu > > >Gasoline is an excellent solvent. Dissolves oil and grease > >from everything - including valves, rings, cylinder walls and > >nicely dilutes the oil - especially when the metal is cold. All > >that nasty oil coated metal is stripped clean and shiny - a > >good recommendation for running extra rich at cold idle.:) > > Seems to me that this is a good argument against running extra rich at > cold idle. I seem to remember reading that something like 80% of the wear > in a motor occurs during the first 30 secs of each cold start, before the > lube system is working effectively. > > Cheers > John Firkins > > > > je jengel@xxx.net "I can resist anything but temptation" Mark Twain ------------------------------ From: swagaero Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 18:47:37 -0700 Subject: is their Anyone on this list working on a sequentional fuel injection?? ----|------||------|---- --|------[]------|-- 0/ \0 Steve Parkman www.flash.net/~swagaero ------------------------------ From: Clint Corbin Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:51:32 -0600 Subject: Re: Microcontrollers used in OEM systems At 05:24 PM 8/27/97 EST5DST, you wrote: >But it's funny that they'd go to what must be the huge expenditure >of custom packaging alot of custom-designed silicon instead of just >designing with what is commercially available (i.e. use an 'HC11E9 in >expanded mode and an 'HC24 to get the lost ports back etc). Every >chip under the 'hood' of a GM ECM seems to be custom...why not use >automotive-grade commercially available stuff? Wouldn't that cost >quite a bit less overall? > > >- Mike One thing to consider in all this is economies of scale. They are going to be building several 10s of millions of these things. If they spend a couple million bucks getting custom silicon designed and build that allows them to eliminate 50 cents worth of parts on the board, it will pay off very quickly for them. With the way that ICs are designed and build these days, it shouldn't be that hard to put together the masks for a custom chip. Clint Corbin ccorbin@xxx.com ccorbin@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: clsnyde@xxx.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 03:21:40 GMT Subject: Re: Ignition timing set-up >> >> Help ... I've done a lot of work rebuilding a Ford 351W for >> a Bronco and am experiencing similar problems to what I had >> when I first pitched the old variable venturi carb and EGR >> for efi and a regular distributor and DuraSpark ignition >> off a different vehicle. >> >> Here's the problem -- timing! (at least that's what I *think* >> is the problem) >> >> If I set the timing to give good low end response (requires >> 20 to 25 degrees advanced at 600 rpm, no vacuum), I get >> clatter under load at high rpm's. >> >I've been battling much the same problem with my 351W >DuraSpark/MSD-6A combo. I run a fairly warm cam (Comp-cams >dual-pattern hydraulic), & recently switched from a Holley >650 to an Edelbrock 750. I've tried both ported & direct >vacuum advance. I've turned the vacuum advance adjustment >screw to its limit for least advance, and run direct >vacuum presently, with about 10 degrees idle advance (mech). I >ended up setting the carb fairly rich to reduce pre-ignition(?) >at part throttle accel (like trying to maintain speed on >an uphill grade in 5th). Then my O2 sensor says I'm a bit >rich on level ground. Playing with the timing light in >the garage, I see way beyond 30 degrees advance at 3000 RPM >with the vacuum hooked up, causing pre-ignition. > >Like you, best idle is obtained with about 20 degrees >advance (vacuum + mechanical). I wouldn't recommend >setting idle mechanical advance beyond 12 degrees, or >your total advance at 3000 will be over 30 (no vacuum), >and thats not good. Although idle and startup suffer, >I've had my best high-rpm operation with the idle >advance (mechanical only) set around 6 degrees. Again, >this keeps the ignition from being over advanced at >high RPM. I have a terrible time with idle at 6 >degrees though. > >Realistically, most of my problems are due to attempting >to operate the engine outside its optimum point. I have >a cam, carb, intake (Torker-II), and heads (Dart-II) that >are intended for 3000-6000 RPM, yet I want to cruise at >2000 RPM in 5th. If the Vettes and Camarobirds can run >so well and cruise at 1500, why can't I, right? The >reason I can't is that I don't have EFI and EST, and >to obtain my HP, I've compromised the low end. With >megabucks of engineers, computers, labs, etc GM can >analyze everything to the last nano-whatever, and balance >the whole system. You and I are just hacking around >the edges, experimenting by trial-and-error, with a >very limited number of trials. > >Supposedly you can take the distributor apart and bend >some tabs to limit total mechanical advance. I've >tried, and found the tabs very hard to bend. > >I haven't tried hotter plugs, but maybe I should. > >So whats this have to do with EFI? Only an understanding >of what works and what doesn't, and why I need an ECM! > >Oh, and another reason not to set your idle advance so >high is wear and tear on your starter. I've burned up >a few starters trying to start a warm engine with too >much advance. > > >-- >Matthew D. Sale, IC Development Engineer, Delco Electronics Corp. >msale@xxx.net/~msale >'69 Mustang 351W 5-spd (13.464@xxx. > >All responses are my own and should not be mistaken >for those of Delco Electronics or General Motors. > Back in the "good old days" before EGR et al, I used to fool around with mopars - mostly slant sixes, with a relatively stock 170 cid unit pulling 206hp at the rear wheels at 6000 RPM on the dyno. It was a bit of a dog off the line, but so what? I found setting the timing to about 4 degrees with vac disconnected, then connecting the advance to manifold, not ported, vacuum, gave me the best results. The dist was recurved to 273 hyper pack specs, more or less, and the valve timing was modified by reducing valve lash to 1/2 specified, with 15 thou off the head surface. Other than that, carburetion jetting (with a 225 carb) was about all I had to change. With vac advance at idle, the idle was smooth. When under load, the vac dropped, retarding timing to avoid ping. At high speeds, a bit of vac advance came back in, more at light load, and less under load, effectively eliminating ping with 89 octane fuel. You might want to try something like this approach. Try a 351 Boss advance curve. Set the power jet a bit richer than stock, with main jets leaned back to stock setting. A restrictor plate on the 750cfm carb may also help, by reducing the effective compression. This will also tend to provide a better vac signal for the vac advance (manifold, not ported). Worth a try anyway. ------------------------------ From: Terry Martin Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:20:45 -0700 Subject: Re: Ethanol & your internet publication Mike Fumento wrote: > In other words, they already do what ethanol is supposed to do. And what is ethanol supposed to do? More specifically, what is the chemical annotation of gasahol? > The key is > making sure that cars that have broken sensors are detected and replaced, > not doing the essential equivalent of giving snake antidote to everyone > every day because somebody on that day might be bitten by a snake. I presume you exclude normal innoculation injections from your analogy? Why do vehicles need (exhaust) oxygen sensors in the first place? > And > with the air over North American cities getting cleaner by the year, It's wonderful to live in North America ain't it? All that smog and pollution going everywhere else and all. BTW, I live in the Fraser Valley area of British Columbia. That's in Canada, the US' biggest trading partner. What I breath is smog from the WA Cherry Point refinery, along with that produced by US built or designed vehicles running in Canada. I have six kids, all of whom have respiratory related problems. Where else do you export pollution producing technology on a trade-off of kid's health for money? I don't buy it, and so far have spent about $5000 converting my various gas vehicles to propane. That is utterly pissant compared to what it is currently costing anyone that earns a living in dollars for health care related to vehicle produced emissions, and that includes production of both hardware and fuel. > with > the costs of petroleum products dropping by the year, I'm afraid I just > can't get all worked up over your fear and loathing of gasoline. Oh, but you certainly have great sympathy for those terminally ill people with respiratory problems? Or they don't factor in? I don't suppose you remember when air quality advisory's hadn't been invented. Like stay indoors if you are very young, old, or have respiratory problems? Perhaps you believe that the human's first invented technology just by chance is not only not harmfull, but is the best technology that will ever be invented, and by poo poo'ing naysayers, you are doing anybody a favour. Even the beneficiaries of the current exploitation don't think their grandchildren will be better off. In fact a significant number of them are taking their profits, and investing behind the scenes in less suicidal technology. Some of them don't give a shit. I do. Terry ------------------------------ From: Terry Martin Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:43:17 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Ethanol & your internet publication] Return-path: Envelope-to: terry_martin@xxx.ca Delivery-date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:22:30 -0700 Received: from hil-img-5.compuserve.com [149.174.177.135] by dewey.mindlink.net with esmtp (Exim 1.653 #6) id 0x3vAD-0006Wr-00; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:22:29 -0700 Received: (from root@localhost) by hil-img-5.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.5) id XAA16645 for terry_martin@xxx.ca; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:22:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:22:01 -0400 From: Mike Fumento Subject: Re: Ethanol & your internet publication To: "INTERNET:terry_martin@xxx.ca> Message-ID: <199708272322_MC2-1E6D-4681@xxx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline I would be willing to bet a reasonable discussion on the fact you know little or nothing about EFI, (electronic fuel injection), or any other means of shifting dependance away from petroleum products. If you knew anything about it, you'd know that all post-1986 cars have oxygen sensors that automatically adjust for the fuel-oxygen ratio. In other words, they already do what ethanol is supposed to do. The key is making sure that cars that have broken sensors are detected and replaced,= not doing the essential equivalent of giving snake antidote to everyone every day because somebody on that day might be bitten by a snake. And with the air over North American cities getting cleaner by the year, with= the costs of petroleum products dropping by the year, I'm afraid I just can't get all worked up over your fear and loathing of gasoline. ------------------------------ From: Terry Martin Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:25:15 -0700 Subject: Oops, didn't mean to plug e-mail into discussion groups ------------------------------ From: galaxyone@xxx.com (Henry J Roden) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 22:18:54 -0700 Subject: Re: is their On Wed, 27 Aug 1997 18:47:37 -0700 swagaero writes: >Anyone on this list working on a sequentional fuel injection?? > > > > ----|------||------|---- > --|------[]------|-- > 0/ \0 > > >Steve Parkman >www.flash.net/~swagaero > Yes, 4 cyl. Subaru. Regards Henry ------------------------------ From: Seth Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: is their On Wed, 27 Aug 1997, swagaero wrote: > Anyone on this list working on a sequentional fuel injection?? > > > > ----|------||------|---- > --|------[]------|-- > 0/ \0 > > > Steve Parkman > www.flash.net/~swagaero > Steve- yes, sort of... and I am cheating. I am working on sequential staged EFI to drown a turbo converted motor (85 VW golf with CIS [K-Jetronic]) has 9 injectors, 4 CIS, 1 cold start and four solenoid/efi injectors) I am using a hall signal driven off the cam pulley for phase and dividing time intervals to approximate sequential. It will lag on accel and decel, but the phase should be close enough at high rpm to work (I hope!). I am not programming, my professor is, I am learning C (just bought a book). I am building the hall pickup and the injector driver board, using a Motorola MXP 4250 AP pressure sensor. Using a pressure/ rpm map to drown the motor when it goes into boost. Might run Methanol to evaporatively charge cool. I hope to at least try it on the dyno. Seth Allen PS, any opinions on metroworks "CodeWarrior" or pro version for C programming and compiling? THe "lite" version came with my book. I need something that is mac 68k compatible. And i have to get a compiler for the 68hc11. Right now using the school's Introl. Any input for C programming (on a mac) would be appreciated privately by personal e-mail Thanks ------------------------------ From: Terry Martin Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:06:04 -0700 Subject: All the non-DYI-EFI crap I've put up here Can someone refer me to an active group concerned with EFI, DYI or not, and alternate fuels, or better yet modification of existing fuels to better function with existing EFI systems? That way I'll get out of your face :-) Terry ------------------------------ From: muwtj1@xxx.edu (Bill Jenkins) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 01:33:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Oxygenates Someone had mentioned using Hydrogen Peroxide as an oxygen-adding compound in a gasoline engine...what is the plausibility of this? I know that Nitrous would be much more potent, but would a peroxide-injection system be worth looking into? ------------------------------ From: "Stuart Baly" Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 16:41:03 +1000 Subject: CDI, accelerometer A couple of things of interest to Aus. list members: Sept.97 Electronics Australia has a small project based on the Analog Devices ADXL05? accelerometer. I remember a thread about these a while ago. The evaluation kit is A$97 for two units, two circuit boards to mount them on, and datasheets. Sept. 97 Silicon Chip magazine has a multiple spark discharge CDI unit as a project. The kit is about A$100 from Dick Smith. Stuart. ======================================================== Stuart Baly (s.baly@xxx.au) Technical Officer Cape Grim Baseline Air Pollution Station '71 Datsun 510, '81 Yamaha RD350LC, '89 Kawasaki GPz900R ======================================================== ------------------------------ From: "Robert Harris" Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:48:04 -0700 Subject: Re: All the non-DYI-EFI crap I've put up here Terry, since I am working on a Bi-fuel (not dual fuel) system, using propane as one of the fuels, and I firmly believe in better racing thru chemistry and cheating - let me know if you find one. Meanwhile, I'll lurk here and pick up bits and pieces as I can. Been able to mine a lot of information - Just need one piece of un-obtanium to complete the basics. "When some one gets something for nothing - some one else gets nothing for something " If the first ingredient ain't Habanero, then the rest don't matter. Robert Harris - ---------- > From: Terry Martin > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: All the non-DYI-EFI crap I've put up here > Date: Wednesday, August 27, 1997 11:06 PM > > Can someone refer me to an active group concerned with EFI, DYI or not, > and alternate fuels, or better yet modification of existing fuels to > better function with existing EFI systems? > > That way I'll get out of your face :-) > > Terry ------------------------------ From: Terry Martin Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 01:14:33 -0700 Subject: Re: All the non-DYI-EFI crap I've put up here Robert Harris wrote: > > Terry, since I am working on a Bi-fuel (not dual fuel) system, > using propane as one of the fuels, and I firmly believe in > better racing thru chemistry and cheating - let me know if you > find one. Meanwhile, I'll lurk here and pick up bits and pieces > as I can. Been able to mine a lot of information - Just need > one piece of un-obtanium to complete the basics. > > > Can someone refer me to an active group concerned with EFI, DYI or not, > > and alternate fuels, or better yet modification of existing fuels to > > better function with existing EFI systems? > > > > That way I'll get out of your face :-) > > > > Terry I appreciate the actual reading of the misleading subject header. It does say I have put the crap up, and I posted it. I have yet to find a group where throwing crap against the wall doesn't result in some sticking, so will do. I have no particular genius of the subject, but seem to be able to provoke out of hiding those who do. I have gained more than I have provoked, and thanks to all. Terry ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.com (dzorde) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 01:51:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Oxygenates I think this was covered several months ago. The conclusion was that hydrogen peroxide is very corrosive and will eat the inside of everything it runs through. Can anyone elaborate on this. Dan dzorde@xxx.com > Someone had mentioned using Hydrogen Peroxide as an oxygen-adding >compound in a gasoline engine...what is the plausibility of this? I know >that Nitrous would be much more potent, but would a peroxide-injection >system be worth looking into? > > ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #293 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".