DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 29 August 1997 Volume 02 : Number 296 In this issue: Re: o2 sensor Re: CDI, accelerometer LED bar graph modules books on exhausts Re: o2 sensor Re: o2 sensor Re: Renault FI? Re: Oxygenates RE: Tuning Book List Knock sensors Re: Oxygenates Re: o2 sensor EGO source (was Re: o2 sensor) Re: CDI, accelerometer Re: Tuning Book List Re: Knock sensors Re: LED bar graph modules Re: Oxygenates Re: o2 sensor Re: o2 sensor Re: injector bosses Re: o2 sensor Re: EFI & furthermore Re: o2 sensor Re: o2 sensor Re: Oxygenates Re: Renault FI? RE: Tuning Book List Re: book Re: Renault FI? Re: injector bosses See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dzorde@xxx.com (dzorde) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: o2 sensor >>In the land downunder they are still using leaded fuel. With this >>statement comes the question what type of o2 sensor is being used?? >>second part can we get them in the states?? > >While unleaded fuel is still used in Oz, all vehicles sold after 1986 were >mandated to use unleaded and only those use EGO's. >Leaded fuel is due to >be completely fazed out around the year 2000. AAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHH :( , what about BP100 ???? Dan dzorde@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: "Robert D. McGhie" Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: CDI, accelerometer At 04:41 PM 8/28/97 +1000, Stuart wrote: Snip >Sept. 97 Silicon Chip magazine has a multiple spark discharge CDI >unit as a project. The kit is about A$100 from Dick Smith. > >Stuart. Could you post or email Dick Smith's address or how to contact him? Thanks. Robert ------------------------------ From: Rich Mauruschat Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:21:11 +0100 Subject: LED bar graph modules >From: Tom Cloud >Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:30:45 -0500 >Subject: LED bar graph >anyone know a part no. for an LED bar graph that takes 0 to >1 volt or such as an input ??? I know they're out there, have >used them long, long ago .... but now can't find one. This >is not a plain bar graph assembly -- it would be an integrated >circuit voltage/level indicator. >thanks, >Tom Cloud Tom, If you are looking for 10-segment led bargraph with integrated driver, then Farnell Electronic Components (in the UK; maybe Newark in the US - Farnell now own Newark I think) supply parts manufactured by "THREE-FIVE" (printed "III-V"). III-V part no's: TSM3914 horizontal TSM39341 vertical (more compact) These parts are basically a LM3914 driver (0-1.2V) integrated with a 10-seg. LED bar. http://www.farnellcomponents.com sales@xxx.com Hope this is helpful. Rich. ------------------------------ From: Kerrie.Thornton@xxx.uk Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:03:54 +0100 Subject: books on exhausts Kerrie Thornton@ISL 29/08/97 11:03 Hi, all At the back end of the 80's, Piper cams, a UK camshaft manufacturer, sold a tuning book which had alot of detail on cam selection, exhaust design etc. This book is long gone but piper are currently working on a new one. It should be available in the next 6 months. As for a good read on cam design, check out http://www.eauto.com/. There are quite a few cam manufacturers under the parts menu. Kerrie. ------------------------------ From: swagaero Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 04:41:56 -0700 Subject: Re: o2 sensor dzorde wrote: > > >>In the land downunder they are still using leaded fuel. With this > >>statement comes the question what type of o2 sensor is being used?? > >>second part can we get them in the states?? > > > >While unleaded fuel is still used in Oz, all vehicles sold after 1986 were > >mandated to use unleaded and only those use EGO's. > > >Leaded fuel is due to > >be completely fazed out around the year 2000. > > AAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHH :( , what about BP100 ???? > > Dan dzorde@xxx.com To continue on Bosh has designed one that can be used on any fuel bet the cost is $250.00 Overwelming. Steve - -- ----|------||------|---- --|------[]------|-- 0/ \0 www.flash.net/~swagaero ------------------------------ From: swagaero Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 04:40:01 -0700 Subject: Re: o2 sensor Johnny wrote: > > swagaero wrote: > > > > In the land downunder they are still using leaded fuel. With this > > statement comes the question what type of o2 sensor is being used?? > > second part can we get them in the states?? > > I gave up on trying to use one with 100LL. Started looking into using > EGT in place of O2 sensor. For our application where idle and low speed > are just a convenience and not used too much, as well as not a lot of > heavy transitional modes, I figured EGT would be the ticket. Still in > just the idea stage though, haven't actually tried anything with it as a > correction table yet. > > -j- If you use lotsa of lead with an o2 shuffle in a batch of un leaded every other tank full it cleans the sensor off and keeps it working if not ithe o2 dies every 38 hours. Steve Parkman - -- ----|------||------|---- --|------[]------|-- 0/ \0 www.flash.net/~swagaero ------------------------------ From: bwmsbldr@xxx.com (Bill Williams) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:43:38 EDT Subject: Re: Renault FI? Mill out the holes for the injector mounting bosses aiming them at the valve head, machine bosses from 6061 Aluminum, weld them in place and port away the excess. The injectors shouldn't extend appreciably into the airflow but need a clear shot at the valve. Look at one of the Spica manifolds to see how to position the Injector. - --- Bill in Boulder "Engineering as an Art Form" --- ------------------------------ From: Clint Corbin Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:15:18 -0600 Subject: Re: Oxygenates At 02:30 AM 8/29/97 -0600, you wrote: >Well, I wasn't in on the original discussion, but I did just go >through the Kansas Cosmosphere, and they had an exhibit on the the >first rocket powered plane, the Me162 Komet (think I have the model >right). It used nearly pure hydrogen peroxide as the oxidizer for the >rocket motor. Due to the corrosive nature (and instability) of the >peroxide this was an extremely dangerous plane to refuel, let alone >fly. Seems that pure hydrogen peroxide produces horrible chemical >burns, in addition to being explosive. > >Not A Good Thing in a moving vehicle. No doubt! If I recall, that was the plane that managed to DISOLVE its pilot after a forced landing with almost full tanks. One split open and flooded the cockpit with H202 on landing. Not a pretty way to go. Remember, H202 in the bottle at the drug store is only 4% or so! Imagine what 100% does..... ------------------------------ From: James Boughton Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:16:56 -0400 Subject: RE: Tuning Book List I would completely disagree. Physics does not change over the years, and the information in this book helped improve the power output of a race engine I worked on. I can't even imagine why you would have anything bad to say about it. - ---------- From: Dave Williams[SMTP:dave.williams@xxx.us] Sent: Thursday, August 28, 1997 6:09 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Tuning Book List - -> **** Scientific Design of Exhaust & Intake Systems - -> by John C. Morrison, Philip Hubert Smith Despite its fancy title this book has very little useful information, and most of that is useful only in the sense of being historic. I strongly recommend you see if you can borrow a copy through inter-library loan instead of putting out money for it. Once you look at it, you'll see why. ====dave.williams@xxx.us========================DoD#978======= can you help me...help me get out of this place?...slow sedation... ain't my style, ain't my pace...giving me a number...NINE, SEVEN, EIGHT ==5.0 RX7 -> Tyrannosaurus RX! == SAE '82 == Denizens of Doom M/C '92== ------------------------------ From: Tom Cloud Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:38:44 -0500 Subject: Knock sensors there have been several threads with questions about knock sensors on both the diy-efi list and the eec list. Yesterday, I researched and bought a knock sensor for a Ford -- apparently there is one which is pretty standard for most V-8 applications -- it's a Borg-Warner S-8041. Don't know the Ford part number, but the Ford dealer quoted me $36 retail (didn't go there, so don't know what it would have actually cost me -- usually about 20% less), and PepBoyz quoted $45 retail with Net of $27. There is one of these on my '91 F-150 -- though I can't find it. For the '90 and '91 302 Bronco and F-series speed density (all they had) fi, there's this knock sensor (could be on other models -- didn't check). I was led to believe from discussion on the lists that the knock sensor was only on MAF vehicles. - interesting note ... for those models, the knock sensor is only on the 302 (5.0l) and not on the 351W (5.8l) .... why ?? ** I must recant something I said on the Bronco list re knock sensors -- I think I said that knock sensors were only on MAF vehicles -- if so, I was w...w..w-wrong ! I have the little bugger here in my Coca-Cola stained hand and the mounting threads appear, to my highly calibrated eyeball, to be 3/8", but mic'ing them shows about .39" and a thread gauge shows something between 16 and 18 tpi -- and my metric thread gauge is a round gadget that won't let me measure the short stud -- so, I can only deduce that it's ISO 10 X 1.5 mm (but it's so close to 3/8-16 it'd be easy to run a 3/8-16 die over it ;-) - Question -- does anyone know where this thing plugs onto the block? Checking it out on the bench -- it has two terminals, neither of which are grounded -- i.e. isolated outputs. Hooking it to the 'scope shows a bipolar (AC) output of as much as 4 Vpp when I tap it lightly (very scientific test ;-) with the blade of my electricians knife. [The Ford Shop Manual says to put a DVM on it, on the AC scale, and tap it with a small wrench to test it.] This is very clearly a piezoelectric (crystal) transducer (I know, I know .... that's what you said 8^) Since I don't have a connector, I figure I'll cut off the plastic shroud and rubber seal and solder a trailer plug to it (my poor old Bronco -- it's getting hard to find different types of trailer plugs so I won't accidently plug the wrong things together 8-( Here's what Probst says about the frequencies believed associated with "knock". "Depending on the engine, knock may be signalled at frequencies of about 6 kHz -- 5450, 5700, 6000, 6150, and 6400 Hz. Some engines require a different knock sensor because they have a different resonant frequency -- 9,500 Hz for some 4.9L, 5.0L, 5.0L Econoline/Broncos." I don't know if he's saying that those frequencies are the resonant frequencies of those blocks -- I cirrusly (a Cloud joke) doubt it ... I'd think the mass of the 5.0 and 5.8 would make for a much lower resonance than 9.5k or even 6k. Does anyone know? I don't recommend much from RatShack, but they do sell a couple of things that are a good deal (IMHO). First, unrelated, is their set of jeweler's screwdrivers -- it's a big set for about $12. Then, there's a little hand-held audio amp that's powered by a 9 jolt battery -- great for audio testing. When I did communications work, I used it all the time for checking circuits -- just be sure the input is AC coupled so it's not damaged hooking it into circuits with DC bias joltages (that means put a 1 uF cap or so in series with the input). It uses an LM-386 audio amp, for those that care. I thought I'd get a cheap equalizer (i.e. one that's lying around -- free) and use the above-mentioned RatShack audio amp to listen in on the engine whilst tuning out the stuff I don't want to hear -- until I read Probst's book. The highest note on a piano is around 7,000 Hz .... the sound from a typical piezo buzzer (like on your watch alarm or micro- wave beeper is about 4,000 Hz). Frequencies up to 9,500 Hz can get pretty hard to hear -- harder for a crummy hand-held amp like I wanted to use to reproduce, and even harder to distinguish the sound from surrounding noise (esp with my new, "quiet" mufflers ;-) I'd like to be able to "listen". There's a trick called "heterodyning" where you can "mix" (actually multiply) two frequencies together to get a third frequency in a different frequency range -- in my case, I'd like to shift the 9,500 down to about 2,000 or so .... and I might do it "some day", but now we're getting serious. I don't want to drive around with a spectrum analyzer lying on my floor board -- I can whip up a notch filter and drive an analog meter (or, for that matter, an AGC circuit that has a lower frequency into it so that I can *hear* some feedback). Sorry for the rambling .... has anyone done anything like this. Todd Knighton, and some others, keep knocking me (pun intended) to get the commercially available knock detector (don't remember who by at the moment .... J&S ?? ) -- but it's like $400, as I recall ..... Gonna go get a Coke .... lemme know what you think Tom Cloud They say the mind is the first thing to go ... and I can't remember the second ------------------------------ From: Jim Davies Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 07:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Oxygenates On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Jeremy Fleming wrote: > >Dan dzorde@xxx.com > > >> Someone had mentioned using Hydrogen Peroxide as an oxygen-adding > >>compound in a gasoline engine...what is the plausibility of this? > first rocket powered plane, the Me162 Komet (think I have the model > right). It used nearly pure hydrogen peroxide as the oxidizer for the > rocket motor. Due to the corrosive nature (and instability) of the > peroxide this was an extremely dangerous plane to refuel, let alone > fly. Seems that pure hydrogen peroxide produces horrible chemical > burns, in addition to being explosive. > > Jeremy > > jeremy@xxx.net I wonder if the use of 3% (as available in any drug store) would have any benefit over plain water injection into the combustion chamber?? Jim Davies ------------------------------ From: garfield@xxx.com (Garfield) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:57:00 GMT Subject: Re: o2 sensor On Fri, 29 Aug 1997 04:41:56 -0700, swagaero wrote: > To continue on Bosh has designed one that can be used on any fuel bet >the cost is $250.00 Overwelming. Whoa, bingo! Part number, please? I'd like to experiment with oneOthese. Wonder if the stoich crossover point changes with the lead in thar. Garfield ------------------------------ From: Tom Cloud Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:10:41 -0500 Subject: EGO source (was Re: o2 sensor) >Further on this issue: can someone advise me of an EGO supplier in the >States that will ship OS ?? I'm yet to find an 'aftermarket' supplier in >Oz and the OEM ones are just plain ridiculous prices. I'd prefer to buy >new (seconhand ones being a bit of a lottery). > >TIA > >Steve Lamb check out Partlink@xxx.com they sell O2 sensors Tom Cloud They say the mind is the first thing to go ... and I can't remember the second ------------------------------ From: garfield@xxx.com (Garfield) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 15:22:17 GMT Subject: Re: CDI, accelerometer On Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:54:16 -0700 (PDT), "Robert D. McGhie" wrote: >At 04:41 PM 8/28/97 +1000, Stuart wrote: >>Sept. 97 Silicon Chip magazine has a multiple spark discharge CDI=20 >>unit as a project. The kit is about A$100 from Dick Smith. >Could you post or email Dick Smith's address or how to contact him? POST IT!!!, since there are at least TWO of us that are interested!! Gotta be several others lurking (this fact derived from the "Law of Net Lurking, which states that for every unlurked inquiry, there are at least several others that wanted to know but were too bashful/lazy/whatever to ask". 8) Garfield ------------------------------ From: "Corey L. Cole" Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:34:10 -0700 Subject: Re: Tuning Book List James Boughton wrote: > > I would completely disagree. Physics does not change over > the years, and the information in this book helped improve > the power output of a race engine I worked on. I can't even > imagine why you would have anything bad to say about it. > > -> **** Scientific Design of Exhaust & Intake Systems > -> by John C. Morrison, Philip Hubert Smith > > Despite its fancy title this book has very little useful information, > and most of that is useful only in the sense of being historic. > > I strongly recommend you see if you can borrow a copy through > inter-library loan instead of putting out money for it. Once you look > at it, you'll see why. > > ====dave.williams@xxx.us========== I would have to agree with Dave more than James...Although there are some useful nuggets of information in the book, the original edition is something like 25 years old. Some of the equipment he uses is not really germaine to today's environment. (Yes, I know it's easy to make a manometer, but really, I think I'd use electronics) And it doesn't help that Morrison passed away after the 2nd edition. However, it's a _MUCH_ better book than that HPBooks that passes itself off as a book about intake and exhaust design. The author has a stock file of about 100 graphics that look like his 8 year old son is his art director. The guy has written something like 5 or 6 books, and they all have the same first 3 chapters. Personally, I think that any book that passes itself off as a design of intake and exhaust systems should at least include a chapter on simulation. What with all the 266 to 300 MHz Pentiums floating around, I don't think computing time is an issue. NASA has free or nearly free code that deals with fluid mechanics in ducts. Guess I'll get off the soapbox now. - -- ============================================================================== Corey L. Cole | I was standing on the side of the road, M/S 19-HH | rain falling on my shoe. E-mail: corey.l.cole@xxx.com | I was heading for the east coast, Phone: 206-662-3596 | Lord knows I've paid some dues. | Tangled up in blue. ============================================================================== Disclaimer: If I'm not speaking FORTRAN, I'm not speaking for Boeing. ------------------------------ From: "Dave Compton" Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:38:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Knock sensors < Tom's ramblings aout listening to his knock sensor. > You know those adapters that allow you to play a CD in your car? You plug the CD into this device and it has a cassette tape shaped thing, that you put in your tape player. Or you could buy the kind that have a miniature FM transmitter. I've bought this type for less than $10. Dave DCompton@xxx.com www.SmartWorx.com/DCompton ------------------------------ From: Tom Cloud Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:42:07 -0500 Subject: Re: LED bar graph modules I wrote: >>anyone know a part no. for an LED bar graph that takes 0 to >>1 volt or such as an input ??? I know they're out there, have >>used them long, long ago .... but now can't find one. This >>is not a plain bar graph assembly -- it would be an integrated >>circuit voltage/level indicator. > >>thanks, >>Tom Cloud and then Rich Mauruschat replied: >If you are looking for 10-segment led bargraph with integrated driver, then >Farnell Electronic Components (in the UK; maybe Newark in the US - Farnell >now own Newark I think) supply parts manufactured by "THREE-FIVE" (printed >"III-V"). >III-V part no's: TSM3914 horizontal > TSM39341 vertical (more compact) >These parts are basically a LM3914 driver (0-1.2V) integrated with a 10-seg. >LED bar. > >http://www.farnellcomponents.com >sales@xxx.com >Hope this is helpful. >Rich. thanks .... I'd seen this in the Jameco catalog and couldn't make out the logo Tom Cloud They say the mind is the first thing to go ... and I can't remember the second ------------------------------ From: Bernard Ward Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:54:41 -0400 Subject: Re: Oxygenates Jim Davies wrote: > > On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Jeremy Fleming wrote: > > > >Dan dzorde@xxx.com > > > > >> Someone had mentioned using Hydrogen Peroxide as an oxygen-adding > > >>compound in a gasoline engine...what is the plausibility of this? > > > first rocket powered plane, the Me162 Komet (think I have the model > > right). It used nearly pure hydrogen peroxide as the oxidizer for the > > rocket motor. Due to the corrosive nature (and instability) of the > > peroxide this was an extremely dangerous plane to refuel, let alone > > fly. Seems that pure hydrogen peroxide produces horrible chemical > > burns, in addition to being explosive. > > > > Jeremy > > > > jeremy@xxx.net > > I wonder if the use of 3% (as available in any drug store) would have any > benefit over plain water injection into the combustion chamber?? > > Jim Davies Oil companies add MTBE to the fuels in the winter. Perhaps this would be plausible? Barney Ward ------------------------------ From: Johnny Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:57:20 -0700 Subject: Re: o2 sensor swagaero wrote: > > Johnny wrote: > > > > swagaero wrote: > > > > > > In the land downunder they are still using leaded fuel. With this > > > statement comes the question what type of o2 sensor is being used?? > > > second part can we get them in the states?? > > > > I gave up on trying to use one with 100LL. Started looking into using > > EGT in place of O2 sensor. For our application where idle and low speed > > are just a convenience and not used too much, as well as not a lot of > > heavy transitional modes, I figured EGT would be the ticket. Still in > > just the idea stage though, haven't actually tried anything with it as a > > correction table yet. > > > > -j- > If you use lotsa of lead with an o2 shuffle in a batch of un leaded > every other tank full it cleans the sensor off and keeps it working if > not ithe o2 dies every 38 hours. > I you're going to tell your customers this? I can't put that operating restriction on and expect anyone to want it I don't think. - -j- ------------------------------ From: Johnny Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:58:51 -0700 Subject: Re: o2 sensor swagaero wrote: > > dzorde wrote: > > > > >>In the land downunder they are still using leaded fuel. With this > > >>statement comes the question what type of o2 sensor is being used?? > > >>second part can we get them in the states?? > > > > > >While unleaded fuel is still used in Oz, all vehicles sold after 1986 were > > >mandated to use unleaded and only those use EGO's. > > > > >Leaded fuel is due to > > >be completely fazed out around the year 2000. > > > > AAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHH :( , what about BP100 ???? > > > > Dan dzorde@xxx.com > > To continue on Bosh has designed one that can be used on any fuel bet > the cost is $250.00 Overwelming. Ahhh, the illusive Bosche "anything's ok" O2 sensor. This has been mentioned before, but I Have never been able to find one. Do you have a part number? - -j- ------------------------------ From: "Corey L. Cole" Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:06:23 -0700 Subject: Re: injector bosses Seth wrote: > > On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, James Weiler wrote: [snip] > > Welding (I've been told) will distort the manifold too much. What > > about bolting it to a pair of heads prior to welding? Ideas anybody? > > I've heard alot of people have epoxied them in place but I worry about > > the durability of the epoxy. How long will it take for gas to break it > > down is one of my concerns. I don't know but epoxy just sounds Mickey > > Mouse. Am I way out of line here? [more snip] > I welded mine. Lots of heat. About 250 amperes worth for about 24 > linear inches of weld. I drilled all the bosses is a chunk of 0.75 by > 1.00 inch aluminum. That keeps the centers consistent. Welding shouldn't > be a big deal, if you warp the mounting surface, it should be minimal > ,and a dust off on a belt sander should fix that, of if you want to get > trick, a flycut on a mill. The intake gets hot for the use of DGEBA > (room temp) epoxies with the usual amine curing agent. A pre-preg epoxy > for use and cure at elevated temp should be fine. One I use cures for 1 > hr at 325 F. We use the stuff on several different intake parts. > I haven't heard anyone mention the use of silver solder yet. IIRC, it's pretty strong, very little heat xfered into the work, and pretty common. I can't say that I've used it for this, but it seems to me that this is yet another way to skin this cat. - -- ============================================================================== Corey L. Cole | I was standing on the side of the road, M/S 19-HH | rain falling on my shoe. E-mail: corey.l.cole@xxx.com | I was heading for the east coast, Phone: 206-662-3596 | Lord knows I've paid some dues. | Tangled up in blue. ============================================================================== ------------------------------ From: Paul Messinger Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:22:57 -0700 Subject: Re: o2 sensor swagaero wrote: > > To continue on Bosh has designed one that can be used on any fuel bet > the cost is $250.00 Overwelming. > > Steve Ok where can you get one? Some time ago I tried to track down one of these and the bosch rep in the usa said they did not know of a lead tolerant sensor. Paul ------------------------------ From: Daniel Grambihler Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:27:58 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: EFI & furthermore Terry wrote: > > On the other hand, someone, say, as learned as yourself, should see past > the words, and recognize the concept. Like someone trying to understand > a person not speaking his native tongue. I'm not sure what Robert was referring to, but I stopped reading your earlier reply when you brought up injection of pure oxygen as an exmaple of an oxygenated fuel. My understanding is that oxygenated means that the oxygen is part of the compound, not a part of the mixture. Given that viewpoint, the rest of your post was in response to a statement that was never made by Robert, brought on by not understanding the nomenclature (or at least not understadning in the same way as I understand it :-)). In that respect, it's a bit difficult to see past the words. Peace - Daniel - -- Daniel Grambihler danielg@xxx.com '47 CJ2A '87 328 GTS '95 D90 #3064 '96 900SS/CR ------------------------------ From: swagaero Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 20:08:08 -0700 Subject: Re: o2 sensor Johnny wrote: > > swagaero wrote: > > > > Johnny wrote: > > > > > > swagaero wrote: > > > > > > > > In the land downunder they are still using leaded fuel. With this > > > > statement comes the question what type of o2 sensor is being used?? > > > > second part can we get them in the states?? > > > > > > I gave up on trying to use one with 100LL. Started looking into using > > > EGT in place of O2 sensor. For our application where idle and low speed > > > are just a convenience and not used too much, as well as not a lot of > > > heavy transitional modes, I figured EGT would be the ticket. Still in > > > just the idea stage though, haven't actually tried anything with it as a > > > correction table yet. > > > > > > -j- > > If you use lotsa of lead with an o2 shuffle in a batch of un leaded > > every other tank full it cleans the sensor off and keeps it working if > > not ithe o2 dies every 38 hours. > > > > I you're going to tell your customers this? I can't put that operating > restriction on and expect anyone to want it I don't think. > > -j- When you are flying cross country and can't get unleaded you burn whats available which is 100 ll better known as lotsa lead. Steve ------------------------------ From: swagaero Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 20:09:34 -0700 Subject: Re: o2 sensor Johnny wrote: > > swagaero wrote: > > > > dzorde wrote: > > > > > > >>In the land downunder they are still using leaded fuel. With this > > > >>statement comes the question what type of o2 sensor is being used?? > > > >>second part can we get them in the states?? > > > > > > > >While unleaded fuel is still used in Oz, all vehicles sold after 1986 were > > > >mandated to use unleaded and only those use EGO's. > > > > > > >Leaded fuel is due to > > > >be completely fazed out around the year 2000. > > > > > > AAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHH :( , what about BP100 ???? > > > > > > Dan dzorde@xxx.com > > > > To continue on Bosh has designed one that can be used on any fuel bet > > the cost is $250.00 Overwelming. > > Ahhh, the illusive Bosche "anything's ok" O2 sensor. This has been > mentioned before, but I Have never been able to find one. Do you have a > part number? > > -j- It's on my desk got it from NASA high altitude research if you could see my desk you will know why it will take a bit to find it. Steve ------------------------------ From: Daniel Grambihler Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:34:08 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Oxygenates > I wonder if the use of 3% (as available in any drug store) would have any > benefit over plain water injection into the combustion chamber?? Well, it would certainly benefit the H2O2 suppliers! ;-) - -- Daniel Grambihler danielg@xxx.com '47 CJ2A '87 328 GTS '95 D90 #3064 '96 900SS/CR ------------------------------ From: clsnyde@xxx.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 18:30:01 GMT Subject: Re: Renault FI? >>Hey gang- >> >> So, I'm in the u-pull salvage yard, pulling Bosch bits off of various cars >>for dirt cheap (Weber throttle body - $10 - woohoo!) when I come across a >>Renault Medallion. Now, most of the Renaults I've seen either have a TBI >>system or Bosch L-Jet, but this one had a funky cast cover over the a/f >>meter that read "Injection Renault". It was definitely a MPI system - >>anyone know what the specs are on it? Is it a derivative of something else? >>For the curious, I'm currently in the process of gathering bits to adapt a >>Bosch L-Jetronic system from a California-spec Renault Alliance 1.4 liter to >>my 1962 Alfa Romeo Giulietta 1.3 liter. The beauty part is that the nice >>Weber throttle body drops right into place on the stock intake manifold, a >>direct replacement for the stock Solex downdraft. Now I just need to figure >>out how to modify the manifold for the injectors.... >> >> >>Paul Witek >> >>zagato@xxx.net >>Shemp Mo-Din Italian Motorsports >>http://www.evansville.net/~zagato >> >> >AMC / RENIX system - a unit all it's own. I was looking for my manual- seam >to have misplaced it > Found my manual - I was wrong. Renix is TPI. Do not have Medallion manual to check. Sorry. ------------------------------ From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:59:00 -0500 Subject: RE: Tuning Book List - -> I would completely disagree. Physics does not change over - -> the years, and the information in this book helped improve - -> the power output of a race engine I worked on. I can't even - -> imagine why you would have anything bad to say about it. I already knew how Helmholtz resonators worked, and had little interest in their cut-and-try approach to tuning wierd old British cars with siamesed intake and exhaust ports. There is no coverage of valve seats at all, bare mention of valve head shape, no discussion of round vs square ports, no discussion of chamber shrouding and its relation to airflow, little discussion of changes in resonance as cylinder volume changed and valves moved, etc. If you want to build a dead-tube header for a three-port MG, great. Otherwise the book is nearly worthless. ====dave.williams@xxx.us========================DoD#978======= can you help me...help me get out of this place?...slow sedation... ain't my style, ain't my pace...giving me a number...NINE, SEVEN, EIGHT ==5.0 RX7 -> Tyrannosaurus RX! == SAE '82 == Denizens of Doom M/C '92== ------------------------------ From: Todd King Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 11:42:00 PDT Subject: Re: book <<< - -> **** Scientific Design of Exhaust & Intake Systems - -> by John C. Morrison, Philip Hubert Smith Despite its fancy title this book has very little useful information, and most of that is useful only in the sense of being historic. I strongly recommend you see if you can borrow a copy through inter-library loan instead of putting out money for it. Once you look at it, you'll see why. >>> From the great classic flick "Animal House": "...My advice to you is to start drinking heavily." "Better listen to him Flounder; he's pre-med..." But seriously, I bought this book last year and totally agree with Dave's assesment. Todd ------------------------------ From: Mark Taschek Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 14:16:16 CDT Subject: Re: Renault FI? > > >>Hey gang- > >> > >> So, I'm in the u-pull salvage yard, pulling Bosch bits off of various cars > >>for dirt cheap (Weber throttle body - $10 - woohoo!) when I come across a > >>Renault Medallion. Now, most of the Renaults I've seen either have a TBI > >>system or Bosch L-Jet, but this one had a funky cast cover over the a/f > >>meter that read "Injection Renault". It was definitely a MPI system - > >>anyone know what the specs are on it? Is it a derivative of something else? > >>For the curious, I'm currently in the process of gathering bits to adapt a > >>Bosch L-Jetronic system from a California-spec Renault Alliance 1.4 liter to > >>my 1962 Alfa Romeo Giulietta 1.3 liter. The beauty part is that the nice > >>Weber throttle body drops right into place on the stock intake manifold, a > >>direct replacement for the stock Solex downdraft. Now I just need to figure > >>out how to modify the manifold for the injectors.... > >> > >> > >>Paul Witek > >> > >>zagato@xxx.net > >>Shemp Mo-Din Italian Motorsports > >>http://www.evansville.net/~zagato > >>/////////////////////////////////////////////// So what year is the Renault system, and what does it look like????? is it in a aluminum case?? Im currently working on a 1987 TPI Renault I6cycl system and may have something in a few weeks??? > >> > >AMC / RENIX system - a unit all it's own. I was looking for my manual- seam > >to have misplaced it > > > Found my manual - I was wrong. Renix is TPI. Do not have Medallion manual to > check. Sorry. > > ------------------------------ From: Tom Cloud Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:13:55 -0500 Subject: Re: injector bosses >Seth wrote: >> >> On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, James Weiler wrote: >[snip] >> > Welding (I've been told) will distort the manifold too much. What >> > about bolting it to a pair of heads prior to welding? Ideas anybody? >> > I've heard alot of people have epoxied them in place but I worry about >> > the durability of the epoxy. How long will it take for gas to break it >> > down is one of my concerns. I don't know but epoxy just sounds Mickey >> > Mouse. Am I way out of line here? >[more snip] >> I welded mine. Lots of heat. About 250 amperes worth for about 24 >> linear inches of weld. I drilled all the bosses is a chunk of 0.75 by >> 1.00 inch aluminum. That keeps the centers consistent. Welding shouldn't >> be a big deal, if you warp the mounting surface, it should be minimal >> ,and a dust off on a belt sander should fix that, of if you want to get >> trick, a flycut on a mill. The intake gets hot for the use of DGEBA >> (room temp) epoxies with the usual amine curing agent. A pre-preg epoxy >> for use and cure at elevated temp should be fine. One I use cures for 1 >> hr at 325 F. We use the stuff on several different intake parts. >> >I haven't heard anyone mention the use of silver solder yet. IIRC, it's >pretty strong, very little heat xfered into the work, and pretty common. >I can't say that I've used it for this, but it seems to me that this is yet >another way to skin this cat. this is not my area of interest -- at least not today (i.e. installing injectors) -- but how do you silver solder aluminuminuminum ??? Plus, how do you figure "little heat" -- you have to be danged near a bright red heat (depends on the alloy) and aluminuminuminum melts before that. Other than that (Al, that is) I love silver solder -- I assume you're talking *real* silver solder -- not that "silver- bearing" tin-lead solder that's sold as silver solder ?? I think that's what they were talking about .... as far as epoxy, some of the filled epoxies (e.g. JB Weld, etc *might* work okay. I've used epoxies in various applications with good success. - used to make jewelry -- had to find an epoxy that wouldn't turn yellow, that was hard and not soft, and that would take polishing without streaking (i.e. hard) ... after extensive testing, determined that Devcon II was the best -- but that was 10 or 15 years ago (BTW, recently came across the teflon sheet I used to put the dabs of different brands of epoxies on and the DEVCON was still reasonably clear -- not yellowed after all this time -- I'm impressed.) - I have JB Welded warped heads and scratches in heads and never had a failure (but, not talking anything other than stock either). - I epoxied (Devcon II) a hole in a dishwasher once (in the bottom, near the heater). It lasted for over five years -- until I threw the dishwasher away for other reasons. - I epoxied a hole in a coffee pot (percolator) I had at work once -- it was in my office -- at that time, I was drinking two to three POTS of java a day -- und idt dinnent dew innithing tew mee ;-) .... the pot lasted for years -- until I changed offices and didn't need it and pitched it - I epoxied a leak in the gas tank on my 650 Triumph Bonneville and went lots of places with it -- never a problem A *true* epoxy will cure faster and harder when heat is applied (remember, it's a plastic, so it has an upper limit where it's damaged or destroyed .... I forget, but I think it's near 300 F). Also, it will *resist* solvents and hot water (see below about fast- curing epoxies). ** be aware that five-minute -- quick curing -- epoxies are not *true* epoxies (don't really know the chemical difference) and won't get as hard, are damaged by heat, are softened by hot water and by gasoline -- i.e. don't use them ! Tom Cloud They say the mind is the first thing to go ... and I can't remember the second ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #296 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".