DIY_EFI Digest Saturday, 30 August 1997 Volume 02 : Number 297 In this issue: Re: injector bosses Re: o2 sensor Alfa Injecting... Re: injector bosses Re: injector bosses Re: Knock sensors Re: Back pressure and torque Re: injector bosses Re: Tuning Book List Re: Back pressure and torque Re: Tuning Book List Re: injector bosses Re: Back pressure and torque Re: Knock sensors Re: Tuning Book List Lighten up -Re: non-EFI crap Re: Knock sensors Re: o2 sensor Zeta Laboratories Inc??? Re: injector bosses Re: Tuning Book List Re: Knock sensors Re: Knock sensors Re: o2 sensor RE:Back pressure and torque Re: injector bosses Re: Lighten up -Re: non-EFI crap DIY-EFI Lurkers Re: o2 sensor Re: o2 sensor Re: injector bosses Re: injector bosses Re: injector bosses Re: injector bosses Re: EFI & furthermore See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brian Knowles Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 11:35:38 -0700 Subject: Re: injector bosses Corey Cole wrote: >I haven't heard anyone mention the use of silver solder yet. IIRC, it's >pretty strong, very little heat xfered into the work, and pretty common. >I can't say that I've used it for this, but it seems to me that this is yet >another way to skin this cat. > >-- This works realy well in thinwall steel tubing fab inlet manifolds, Cosworth Engineering made most of the manifolds used on their engines baised on the Ford 105E this way, the ones for the side draft Weber DCOE carbs seem to have been furnace brazed. Brian ------------------------------ From: Tom Cloud Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:22:37 -0500 Subject: Re: o2 sensor >It's on my desk got it from NASA high altitude research if you could see >my desk you will know why it will take a bit to find it. > >Steve I have the same "security" system 8^) Tom Cloud They say the mind is the first thing to go ... and I can't remember the second ------------------------------ From: Paul Witek Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:39:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Alfa Injecting... > Mill out the holes for the injector mounting bosses aiming them >at the valve head, machine bosses from 6061 Aluminum, weld them in place >and port away the excess. The injectors shouldn't extend appreciably into >the airflow but need a clear shot at the valve. Look at one of the Spica >manifolds to see how to position the Injector. > Thanks all for the suggestions. I think Bill in Boulder has struck on the solution I'll probably end up using. I've gotta dig out my spare Spica intake and see just how much modification it'll take to bolt it up to the 1300 head. I think they're really close, so I might end up using the Spica intake with the bosses for the mechanical injectors modified to accept the Bosch injectors. Of course, if I go that route, I'll use the Spica intakes throttle assembly, modified for a TPS. In which case, I might as well skip the L-Jet completely and go with an aftermarket system in speed/density mode. OR, alternatively, I have the intake from an 81 Spica car, that may be more suitable to using with the L-Jet. We'll see. Of course, this whole project is moving slowly, seeing as how I currently have a load of other projects in the works simulataneously. Thanks again for the input! Paul Witek zagato@xxx.net Shemp Mo-Din Italian Motorsports http://www.evansville.net/~zagato ------------------------------ From: Tom Cloud Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:56:43 -0500 Subject: Re: injector bosses >Corey Cole wrote: > >>I haven't heard anyone mention the use of silver solder yet. IIRC, it's >>pretty strong, very little heat xfered into the work, and pretty common. >>I can't say that I've used it for this, but it seems to me that this is yet >>another way to skin this cat. >> >>-- > >This works realy well in thinwall steel tubing fab inlet manifolds, >Cosworth Engineering made most of the manifolds used on their engines >baised on the Ford 105E this way, the ones for the side draft Weber DCOE >carbs seem to have been furnace brazed. > >Brian can't speak for what they did, but diffusion pumps (hi-vac) coolant water tubing are often silver soldered onto the pump in a hydrogen furnace -- it's a sealed "kiln" that has pure H2 bled through it into a stack above the building where it's burned -- obviously dangerous so must be carefully monitored and controlled -- but it produces oxide free joints. They wrap the tubing around the pump housing with silver solder paste (still talking "real" silver solder, not "silver-bearing" tin-lead alloy) put it in the furnace and .... voila' purrfect joint. Tom Cloud They say the mind is the first thing to go ... and I can't remember the second ------------------------------ From: Tom Cloud Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 15:01:37 -0500 Subject: Re: injector bosses >A *true* epoxy will cure faster and harder when heat is applied >(remember, it's a plastic, so it has an upper limit where it's >damaged or destroyed .... I forget, but I think it's near 300 F). >Also, it will *resist* solvents and hot water (see below about fast- >curing epoxies). > > > ** be aware that five-minute -- quick curing -- epoxies are > not *true* epoxies (don't really know the chemical difference) > and won't get as hard, are damaged by heat, are softened by > hot water and by gasoline -- i.e. don't use them ! one last thought about epoxy -- that's probably what's in the connectors on the engine -- ex. sensors, etc -- for the seal and to hold the connector pins in place .... could even be a component in the injectors ?? Also, epoxy will (should ?? ) stand as much heat as the wiring on your engine (of course, the injectors are in more direct contact with the engine heat). Tom Cloud They say the mind is the first thing to go ... and I can't remember the second ------------------------------ From: Tom Cloud Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 15:09:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Knock sensors nobody answered my question (well, not this particular one) surely someone out there knows where the knock sensor is located on the 302/351 ???? Neither the Ford shop manual or Probst's book gives me a clue. Anyone ??? Tom Cloud They say the mind is the first thing to go ... and I can't remember the second ------------------------------ From: "Andrew F. Gunnesch" Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 16:12:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Back pressure and torque On Aug 28, 8:12pm, swagaero wrote: > Subject: Re: Back pressure and torque > Greg Pruett wrote: > > > > I'm converting an olds to port EFI by using the manifold from a 77 > > caddilac that had an olds engine and an analog injection system. I'm > > going to try and use an '88 or so camaro TPI controller. I guess this > > means I'd be allright if I just mounted the O2 sensor where the EGR > > valve should go? That looks a lot simpler than removing an exhaust > > manifold and tapping it or trying to mount the sensor in the exhaust > > pipes somewhere. I'm gonna ditch the EGR valve anyway, it's not > > required on the car so I don't want to fool with it. > > use the 1989 camaro tpi ecm (z28) you only need the 5 basic sensors cts, > ait, o2, map, tps. ignore speed sensor mount the o2 in the exhaaust pipe > as close to exhaust ports not hot enough at egr location.o2 mounts easy > to come by go to any parts house and get anti fowler 18mm cut off outer > threads weld to exhaust pipe done. > need more hollar. 1989 won't work for what you're after... 1989 is a MAF computer. Look at 1990-1992 computers. ------------------------------ From: garfield@xxx.com (Garfield) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 20:49:41 GMT Subject: Re: injector bosses On Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:06:23 -0700, "Corey L. Cole" wrote: >I haven't heard anyone mention the use of silver solder yet. Hmmm, can silver solder be used on aluminum? Garfield ------------------------------ From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:32:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Tuning Book List - -> Personally, I think that any book that passes itself off as a design - -> of intake and exhaust systems should at least include a chapter on - -> simulation. - -> What with all the 266 to 300 MHz Pentiums floating around, I don't - -> think computing time is an issue. NASA has free or nearly free code - -> that deals with - -> fluid mechanics in ducts. If it was normal flow in ducts we'd have it made. We're talking about bending the flow 60 to 90 degrees in a short radius and spreading it out around a poppet valve. That's just intake port flow; start expanding your model and you add orders of magnitude to the complexity. ------------------------------ From: swagaero Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 02:10:21 -0700 Subject: Re: Back pressure and torque Andrew F. Gunnesch wrote: > > On Aug 28, 8:12pm, swagaero wrote: > > Subject: Re: Back pressure and torque > > Greg Pruett wrote: > > > > > > I'm converting an olds to port EFI by using the manifold from a 77 > > > caddilac that had an olds engine and an analog injection system. I'm > > > going to try and use an '88 or so camaro TPI controller. I guess this > > > means I'd be allright if I just mounted the O2 sensor where the EGR > > > valve should go? That looks a lot simpler than removing an exhaust > > > manifold and tapping it or trying to mount the sensor in the exhaust > > > pipes somewhere. I'm gonna ditch the EGR valve anyway, it's not > > > required on the car so I don't want to fool with it. > > > > use the 1989 camaro tpi ecm (z28) you only need the 5 basic sensors cts, > > ait, o2, map, tps. ignore speed sensor mount the o2 in the exhaaust pipe > > as close to exhaust ports not hot enough at egr location.o2 mounts easy > > to come by go to any parts house and get anti fowler 18mm cut off outer > > threads weld to exhaust pipe done. > > need more hollar. > > 1989 won't work for what you're after... 1989 is a MAF computer. Look > at 1990-1992 computers. it is a maf map system and you can do away with the maf Steve ------------------------------ From: "Michael D. Porter" Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 15:31:10 -0700 Subject: Re: Tuning Book List Corey L. Cole wrote: > Personally, I think that any book that passes itself off as a design of > intake and exhaust systems should at least include a chapter on > simulation. > What with all the 266 to 300 MHz Pentiums floating around, I don't think > computing time is an issue. NASA has free or nearly free code that > deals with > fluid mechanics in ducts. Corey, have you any more specifics on the software mentioned above? Cheers. - -- My other Triumph runs, but.... ------------------------------ From: garfield@xxx.com (Garfield) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:50:15 GMT Subject: Re: injector bosses On Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:13:55 -0500, Tom Cloud wrote: >A *true* epoxy will cure faster and harder when heat is applied >(remember, it's a plastic, so it has an upper limit where it's >damaged or destroyed .... I forget, but I think it's near 300 F). Ooops, careful there. MOST of the commercial epoxys have transition temps Tg below 200deg F, some used in aircraft building are around 150degF hence most all the composite planes being painted white!!, so the advice someone else gave for trying to locate a higher temp epoxy like those used in prepregs is exactamundo spot on. Generally, if the epoxy cures at room temps, then it's Tg isn't gonna be more than 100degF above that. OTOH, it's not THAT hard to find higher temp epoxies. What you want is an epoxy you heat to around 200degF to cure, and it will have a Tg around 300-350degF. Ciba Adhesives makes a couple; I'll try and track down part numbers and suppliers for for the list. OK? And as to your surmisals based on plastics/temps of the wiring & housings, these are NOT usually epoxies. Trust me, contrary to your experiential coffee-pot evidence, generic epoxies are NOT to be relied upon in this application, but "high temp epoxy adhesives" especially the aluminum-filled varieties, would be ideal. I'll see what I can find and report back. Garfield ------------------------------ From: swagaero Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 16:10:05 -0700 Subject: Re: Back pressure and torque Andrew F. Gunnesch wrote: > > On Aug 28, 8:12pm, swagaero wrote: > > Subject: Re: Back pressure and torque > > Greg Pruett wrote: > > > > > > I'm converting an olds to port EFI by using the manifold from a 77 > > > caddilac that had an olds engine and an analog injection system. I'm > > > going to try and use an '88 or so camaro TPI controller. I guess this > > > means I'd be allright if I just mounted the O2 sensor where the EGR > > > valve should go? That looks a lot simpler than removing an exhaust > > > manifold and tapping it or trying to mount the sensor in the exhaust > > > pipes somewhere. I'm gonna ditch the EGR valve anyway, it's not > > > required on the car so I don't want to fool with it. > > > > use the 1989 camaro tpi ecm (z28) you only need the 5 basic sensors cts, > > ait, o2, map, tps. ignore speed sensor mount the o2 in the exhaaust pipe > > as close to exhaust ports not hot enough at egr location.o2 mounts easy > > to come by go to any parts house and get anti fowler 18mm cut off outer > > threads weld to exhaust pipe done. > > need more hollar. > > 1989 won't work for what you're after... 1989 is a MAF computer. Look > at 1990-1992 computers. I stand corrected 1990 is the correct year to use I am going to have to have my memory upgraded. Steve - -- ----|------||------|---- --|------[]------|-- 0/ \0 www.flash.net/~swagaero ------------------------------ From: Date: 29 Aug 1997 20:01:06 EDT Subject: Re: Knock sensors I have seen Ford knock sensor in the intake manifold and in front .ddn coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu(diy_efi) of the passenger side motor mount Pat PDONLEYCOTT @xxx.COM ------------------------------ From: garfield@xxx.com (Garfield) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 00:52:40 GMT Subject: Re: Tuning Book List On Thu, 28 Aug 1997 16:23:38 GMT, garfield@xxx.com (Garfield) wrote: >Following up on Jim's lead, here are the books that the "amazon >reviewer" was apparently refering to: Hey maties. OK, we got some mixotropic inputs regarding the "Scientific" book, whether it's archeological or not. Cool. No harm done, quite the opposite. Life is like that. NOW, has anyone read any of the OTHER books??? Specifically, the guy that opined on Amazon that he'd go for the Dalton and Bell books, what say ye? Don't stop now. I'm not so cheap I'd have ya type your brains out rather than me go and get some of these, but I WOULD like to know what y'all have found of GOOD use in some/any of these books. TIA Garfield ------------------------------ From: "R.Larson" Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 20:38:08 -0700 Subject: Lighten up -Re: non-EFI crap Rich Mauruschat wrote: > > >Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:06:04 -0700, Terry Martin wrote:- > >Can someone refer me to an active group concerned with EFI, DYI or not, > Terry, > I'm sure everyone would be very grateful if you'd just get out of our face > anyway! > Thanks for the suggestion. > Rich. Rich....... I know you probably took Terry's sugestion to heart but come on and be grown-up about it. Not long ago this group had long discussions about everything from ABS braking systems, cars on blocks in driveways and nasty neighbors. Although entertaining, the amount of mail was ridiculous and had absolutely nothing to do with EFI. Go ahead and flame me if that will make you feel more like a man but it will not change the fact that this group gets pretty far off the subject sometimes. Terry..... I hope that you have tried the DIY_EFI/EFI332 FTP site. The group that started this site has done a lot of work on EFI's,Theory,and Pratical circuitry. ALso the Bruce Bowling site has programs that can give you some insite into EFI injector sizes along with other programs of interest. ------------------------------ From: Frank F Parker Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:04:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Knock sensors > I thought I'd get a cheap equalizer (i.e. one that's lying > around -- free) and use the above-mentioned RatShack audio > amp to listen in on the engine whilst tuning out the stuff > I don't want to hear -- until I read Probst's book. > > "some day", but now we're getting serious. I don't want > to drive around with a spectrum analyzer lying on my floor > board -- I can whip up a notch filter and drive an analog > meter (or, for that matter, an AGC circuit that has a lower > frequency into it so that I can *hear* some feedback). > > Sorry for the rambling .... has anyone done anything like > this. Todd Knighton, and some others, keep knocking me (pun > intended) to get the commercially available knock detector > (don't remember who by at the moment .... J&S ?? ) -- but it's > like $400, as I recall ..... > Tom Cloud Tom, I have done what you thought about with an equalizer and knock sensor and it was not much better than just listening to bare sensor. Todd and the others are correct-simple analog filters just do not cut it- that is why the early knock systems were so sensitive to location etc. The J&S Electronics unit uses DSP filtering so you are able to filter freq that are separate but close together- impossible even with multiple pole analog filters. Best the J&S has a 0-1.25 volt monitor out so you can drive a LM3914 for a retard display. I also ran it to a datalogger and took data at 50/sec along with various pressures and temps on a recent turbo project car. This is one of those cases where there is not a cheap way to monitor and control knock- gotta pay your bucks!- Even then location of sensor is important to the best performance. Regards, Frank Parker fparker@xxx.edu Motorsports Data Acquisition > > ------------------------------ From: Frank F Parker Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:12:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: o2 sensor > > > To continue on Bosh has designed one that can be used on any fuel bet > >the cost is $250.00 Overwelming. > > Whoa, bingo! Part number, please? I'd like to experiment with oneOthese. > Wonder if the stoich crossover point changes with the lead in thar. > > Garfield > The part # for the sensor is "0-258-104-002". No, the point does not change with lead. I have used it in the tuning of V-8 race engines with high lead content "Turbo Blue" race fuel. Bosch literature says life is over 50 hrs at 1gm/gal BUT race fuel is way over that. Ours seem to last 20 hours or so. We have not bothered to trying cleaning them by running them with unleaded fuel but Bosch says it works. Frank Parker fparker@xxx.edu Motorsports Data Acquisition ------------------------------ From: Justin Albury Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 12:13:25 +1000 Subject: Zeta Laboratories Inc??? Hi all Sorry but this one isnt efi related... but i thought that most of you guys live in the states you might be able to help me out.... Im trying to find an email address for: ZETA LABORATORIES INC 3265 SCOTT BLVD SANTA CLARA, CA 95054-3014 (408) 727-6001 This is the only info i can find on them Im trying to get some info on: Zeta Z19 RF Modem any help would be tops! many thanks Justin jalbury@xxx.au ------------------------------ From: James Weiler Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 19:17:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: injector bosses On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Garfield wrote: > Ooops, careful there. MOST of the commercial epoxys have transition > temps Tg below 200deg F, some used in aircraft building are around > 150degF hence most all the composite planes being painted white!!, so > the advice someone else gave for trying to locate a higher temp epoxy > like those used in prepregs is exactamundo spot on. Generally, if the > epoxy cures at room temps, then it's Tg isn't gonna be more than 100degF > above that. Ohhhh this is good stuff! > OTOH, it's not THAT hard to find higher temp epoxies. What you want is > an epoxy you heat to around 200degF to cure, and it will have a Tg > around 300-350degF. Ciba Adhesives makes a couple; I'll try and track > down part numbers and suppliers for for the list. OK? Yes yes yes !!!! > but "high temp epoxy adhesives" especially the > aluminum-filled varieties, would be ideal. I'll see what I can find and > report back. So is JB weld an aluminum-filled variety? thanks for the effort jw ------------------------------ From: James Weiler Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 19:26:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Tuning Book List On Sat, 30 Aug 1997, Garfield wrote: > NOW, has anyone read any of the OTHER books??? Specifically, the guy > that opined on Amazon that he'd go for the Dalton and Bell books, what I've got the Corky bell book but have only read the section on intake design. Since I know nothing about how different types work (except for runner length) I found it good beginner info. If you already know what a symetrical vs. non-symetrical intake is and the pro's and con's to single vs. multi-throttles then you won't be impressed. I didn't so I was. Now I'm starting at the beginning and I get a take home message out of every page !! But I know nothing about turbos. Corky set me straight on the difference between boost threshold and lag. What I thought was lag is really boost threshold. That's just the first few pages. I think you can all guess from this description as to whether this book is for you or not. Hope this helps. Now if we could find somebody who's read the "practical gas flow" book. later all jw ------------------------------ From: James Weiler Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 19:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Knock sensors On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Frank F Parker wrote: > I have done what you thought about with an equalizer and knock sensor > and it was not much better than just listening to bare sensor. > Todd and the others are correct-simple analog filters just do not > cut it- that is why the early knock systems were so sensitive to > location etc. The J&S Electronics unit uses DSP filtering so you are able > to filter freq that are separate but close together- impossible even > with multiple pole analog filters. Best the J&S has a 0-1.25 volt > monitor out so you can drive a LM3914 for a retard display. I also ran > it to a datalogger and took data at 50/sec along with various pressures > and temps on a recent turbo project car. > > This is one of those cases where there is not a cheap way to monitor > and control knock- gotta pay your bucks!- Even then location of sensor > is important to the best performance. > Probably the best piece of informed advice I've seen on the list in a while. Thanks. Anybody got a 1-800 number for J&S? Web page? In the back of the Probst book there is a vendor list. Some company starting with an "A" sells a knock sensor for any EEC-IV. Always meant to drop them a line and my Probst book is burried somewhere. Anybody know anything about these guys? later jw ------------------------------ From: swagaero Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 19:41:50 -0700 Subject: Re: Knock sensors Frank F Parker wrote: > > > I thought I'd get a cheap equalizer (i.e. one that's lying > > around -- free) and use the above-mentioned RatShack audio > > amp to listen in on the engine whilst tuning out the stuff > > I don't want to hear -- until I read Probst's book. > > > > "some day", but now we're getting serious. I don't want > > to drive around with a spectrum analyzer lying on my floor > > board -- I can whip up a notch filter and drive an analog > > meter (or, for that matter, an AGC circuit that has a lower > > frequency into it so that I can *hear* some feedback). > > > > Sorry for the rambling .... has anyone done anything like > > this. Todd Knighton, and some others, keep knocking me (pun > > intended) to get the commercially available knock detector > > (don't remember who by at the moment .... J&S ?? ) -- but it's > > like $400, as I recall ..... > > Tom Cloud > > Tom, > I have done what you thought about with an equalizer and knock sensor > and it was not much better than just listening to bare sensor. > Todd and the others are correct-simple analog filters just do not > cut it- that is why the early knock systems were so sensitive to > location etc. The J&S Electronics unit uses DSP filtering so you are able > to filter freq that are separate but close together- impossible even > with multiple pole analog filters. Best the J&S has a 0-1.25 volt > monitor out so you can drive a LM3914 for a retard display. I also ran > it to a datalogger and took data at 50/sec along with various pressures > and temps on a recent turbo project car. > > This is one of those cases where there is not a cheap way to monitor > and control knock- gotta pay your bucks!- Even then location of sensor > is important to the best performance. > > Regards, > > Frank Parker > fparker@xxx.edu > Motorsports Data Acquisition > > > > Next tuesday I will put a schematic for a visual knock detector 3 led's ect free for the building it's just another one of my (well it works but no one wants to buy it) Steve - -- ----|------||------|---- --|------[]------|-- 0/ \0 www.flash.net/~swagaero ------------------------------ From: swagaero Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 19:47:52 -0700 Subject: Re: o2 sensor Frank F Parker wrote: > > > > > > To continue on Bosh has designed one that can be used on any fuel bet > > >the cost is $250.00 Overwelming. > > > > Whoa, bingo! Part number, please? I'd like to experiment with oneOthese. > > Wonder if the stoich crossover point changes with the lead in thar. > > > > Garfield > > > The part # for the sensor is "0-258-104-002". No, the point does not > change with lead. I have used it in the tuning of V-8 race engines with > high lead content "Turbo Blue" race fuel. Bosch literature says life > is over 50 hrs at 1gm/gal BUT race fuel is way over that. Ours seem > to last 20 hours or so. We have not bothered to trying cleaning them > by running them with unleaded fuel but Bosch says it works. > > Frank Parker > fparker@xxx.edu > Motorsports Data Acquisition thank you I did not get a chance to look on my desk. What did you have to pay for it. Appx Steve - -- ----|------||------|---- --|------[]------|-- 0/ \0 www.flash.net/~swagaero ------------------------------ From: Jennifer Rose Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 20:05:57 -0700 Subject: RE:Back pressure and torque Hi All The Gm ecm used in 90 - 92 camaros is a p/n 1227730. Was used in j-body cars with v-6 - just look for this p/n in wrecking yard. Reprogram eprom with file from 91 camaro v-8. Usually $50 if they don't know ya want it for a tpi install. eprom is about $45 from gm, just need to bypass Vats. Vance ------------------------------ From: garfield@xxx.com (Garfield) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 03:42:46 GMT Subject: Re: injector bosses On Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:50:15 GMT, garfield@xxx.com (Garfield) wrote: >OTOH, it's not THAT hard to find higher temp epoxies. What you want is >an epoxy you heat to around 200degF to cure, and it will have a Tg >around 300-350degF. Ciba Adhesives makes a couple; I'll try and track >down part numbers and suppliers for for the list. OK? OK, that wasn't as bad as I expected; heh, only took me 2 whole bloody hours on the phone; sheesh, I hope you guys appreciate this. Oh alright, enough whining. Ciba Adhesives (part of Ciba-Giegy) Epibond 1567-A/B40 Nom. Serv. Temp. 350degF if use the 150degF cure. 100:73 two-part semi-paste thixotropic, working time 20min, (thixotropic means it doesn't run or sag on you...perfect...just what you want) Cure schedule: 5days Room temp OR 1HR at 150degF Packaging: 50mL "Accumix cartridges", sorta like a double-barrel syringe. Price: $12.54 ea. cartridge (note: 50mL probably enough to do several heads worth). BTW, this stuff is made primarily for Boeing. Ciba Adhesive: 800-367-8793 Last I bought from them, they had a minimum of $100, but they can also give you a list of distributors; but beware, the distributors may want a minimum of 10 cartridges, anyways. Hey, if you can't get just one, lemme know and we'll do a group buy of ten. No problemo, I can do that meself if enough (10) folks are interested. Garfield ------------------------------ From: Terry Martin Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 20:57:47 -0700 Subject: Re: Lighten up -Re: non-EFI crap R.Larson wrote: > > Rich Mauruschat wrote: > > I'm sure everyone would be very grateful if you'd just get out of our face > Rich....... > > I know you probably took Terry's sugestion to heart but come on and be > grown-up about it. > Terry..... > I hope that you have tried the DIY_EFI/EFI332 FTP site. Thanks I will, and with respect to the above heat in the intake manifold, I deserved it. I tried to fire-ball some bonehead or other and did a wonderful job of pulling down my shorts on the entire group. Terry How come some drive up ATM's have brail signs on them? ------------------------------ From: Terry Martin Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:10:02 -0700 Subject: DIY-EFI Lurkers I know there just has to be a Delco Powertrain lurker in here somewhere. I'm gonna get flamed again but anyone know how to get the DERM to cough up the crash data. It Lurks on the bus listening to gaddom nearly everything and does a write down to non-volatile ram for about two minutes after going into pre-crash mode. I want to know what the injection control does with your foot stomped into the gas pedal and the front bumper headed for your face without actually trying it. Terry BTW, why is the word abbreviation so long? ------------------------------ From: Johnny Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:20:21 -0700 Subject: Re: o2 sensor swagaero wrote: > > Ahhh, the illusive Bosche "anything's ok" O2 sensor. This has been > > mentioned before, but I Have never been able to find one. Do you have a > > part number? > > > > It's on my desk got it from NASA high altitude research if you could see > my desk you will know why it will take a bit to find it. > So we both got our desks at the same place. When you find it, I would be most interested in it. As far as the "regular" sensors go, I have not been able to get one to work reliably after lead coating no matter what I did after that. No matter how much unleaded I burned after that, it was just not accurate or consistant. I don't want people to have to remember what they ran last time or for how many hours. I'm sure you know how that goes. They may not fly for weeks at a time, and then they have to remember if they need to go out of their way to find Mogas this time. It's just not a selling point I would want to try and sell. Like you, and a few others, I have been around and around on the O2 with lead thing, and I still haven't found a good solution except to just not do closed loop at all. But I can't help but think that there might be a better way, like using EGT in it's place. - -j- ------------------------------ From: Johnny Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:23:50 -0700 Subject: Re: o2 sensor Frank F Parker wrote: > > > > > > To continue on Bosh has designed one that can be used on any fuel bet > > >the cost is $250.00 Overwelming. > > > > Whoa, bingo! Part number, please? I'd like to experiment with oneOthese. > > Wonder if the stoich crossover point changes with the lead in thar. > > > > Garfield > > > The part # for the sensor is "0-258-104-002". No, the point does not > change with lead. I have used it in the tuning of V-8 race engines with > high lead content "Turbo Blue" race fuel. Bosch literature says life > is over 50 hrs at 1gm/gal BUT race fuel is way over that. Ours seem > to last 20 hours or so. We have not bothered to trying cleaning them > by running them with unleaded fuel but Bosch says it works. Oh man. 20 hrs? I think 100LL is around 2gm per gal, isn't it? $250 bucks? I can see this isn't going to be something that I can expect to use on a 2000 hour TBO engine. Oh well, back to the drawing board. - -j- ------------------------------ From: Seth Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: injector bosses On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Tom Cloud wrote: > > >A *true* epoxy will cure faster and harder when heat is applied > >(remember, it's a plastic, so it has an upper limit where it's > >damaged or destroyed .... I forget, but I think it's near 300 F). > >Also, it will *resist* solvents and hot water (see below about fast- > >curing epoxies). > > > > > > ** be aware that five-minute -- quick curing -- epoxies are > > not *true* epoxies (don't really know the chemical difference) > > and won't get as hard, are damaged by heat, are softened by > > hot water and by gasoline -- i.e. don't use them ! > > one last thought about epoxy -- that's probably what's > in the connectors on the engine -- ex. sensors, etc -- for > the seal and to hold the connector pins in place .... could > even be a component in the injectors ?? > > Also, epoxy will (should ?? ) stand as much heat as the > wiring on your engine (of course, the injectors are in more > direct contact with the engine heat). > > Tom Cloud > > They say the mind is the first thing to go ... and I can't remember the second > I deal with room temp cure epoxies pretty much all day ( lots of carbon fiber lamination and bonding) that stuff is the nasty aliphatic amine hardener. It is a "real" epoxy. But even 5 minute epoxy has aliphatic amine as the "hardener". In either case, aliphatic amine expoxies don't like heat much. Viton, that fluoropolymer engineered for heat and oil still dies eventually, ever try to remove old CIS O-rings? I might suggest a urethane adhesive, they often have higher sevice temps, gap fill better and adhere better than epoxies. They also can emit di-isocyanates, so you want to be a bit careful. But the stuff works where epoxy won't. Personally, I weld if I can, but I am a welder at heart, and I like the look of a nice bead. Seth ------------------------------ From: Seth Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:47:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: injector bosses On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Garfield wrote: > On Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:13:55 -0500, Tom Cloud > wrote: > > >A *true* epoxy will cure faster and harder when heat is applied > >(remember, it's a plastic, so it has an upper limit where it's > >damaged or destroyed .... I forget, but I think it's near 300 F). > > Ooops, careful there. MOST of the commercial epoxys have transition > temps Tg below 200deg F, some used in aircraft building are around > 150degF hence most all the composite planes being painted white!!, so > the advice someone else gave for trying to locate a higher temp epoxy > like those used in prepregs is exactamundo spot on. Generally, if the > epoxy cures at room temps, then it's Tg isn't gonna be more than 100degF > above that. > > OTOH, it's not THAT hard to find higher temp epoxies. What you want is > an epoxy you heat to around 200degF to cure, and it will have a Tg > around 300-350degF. Ciba Adhesives makes a couple; I'll try and track > down part numbers and suppliers for for the list. OK? > > And as to your surmisals based on plastics/temps of the wiring & > housings, these are NOT usually epoxies. Trust me, contrary to your > experiential coffee-pot evidence, generic epoxies are NOT to be relied > upon in this application, but "high temp epoxy adhesives" especially the > aluminum-filled varieties, would be ideal. I'll see what I can find and > report back. > > Garfield > Thanks, Garfield for the clarification. I have used Permabond, a pre-preg aluminum filled adhesive. I filled it with colloidal silica to thicken it into pre-preg bondo. The stuff stilll wont reliably fill a gap much over 0.015 inches. I don't have permabond's address, unfortunately... Seth ------------------------------ From: James Weiler Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:53:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: injector bosses On Sat, 30 Aug 1997, Garfield wrote: > Ciba Adhesives (part of Ciba-Giegy) > > Epibond 1567-A/B40 > Nom. Serv. Temp. 350degF if use the 150degF cure. > 100:73 two-part semi-paste thixotropic, working time 20min, (thixotropic > means it doesn't run or sag on you...perfect...just what you want) > Cure schedule: 5days Room temp OR 1HR at 150degF > Packaging: 50mL "Accumix cartridges", sorta like a double-barrel > syringe. > Price: $12.54 ea. cartridge (note: 50mL probably enough to do several > heads worth). > BTW, this stuff is made primarily for Boeing. > > Ciba Adhesive: 800-367-8793 > Last I bought from them, they had a minimum of $100, but they can also > give you a list of distributors; but beware, the distributors may want a > minimum of 10 cartridges, anyways. Hey, if you can't get just one, lemme > know and we'll do a group buy of ten. No problemo, I can do that meself > if enough (10) folks are interested. I'm up for a cartrige or two. Beats the hell out of threading in these bosses and welding is going to take too much time for me to make a jig. james wieler ------------------------------ From: James Weiler Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: injector bosses On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Seth wrote: > I deal with room temp cure epoxies pretty much all day ( lots of carbon > fiber lamination and bonding) that stuff is the nasty aliphatic amine That's so cool. Carbon fibre is something I'd like to learn how to work with. Are there any books/manuals that can get me started? Where do you get your supplies from or is this at your place of work? > I might suggest a urethane adhesive, they often have higher sevice temps, > gap fill better and adhere better than epoxies. They also can emit > di-isocyanates, so you want to be a bit careful. But the stuff works > where epoxy won't. Does a charcoal filter mask remove isocyanates? I don't think it does, I think you need a breathing aparatus (i.e. air line). Nasty stuff. I kinda like the epoxy idea a bit better. > > Personally, I weld if I can, but I am a welder at heart, and I like the > look of a nice bead. Ditto, but I don't have the skills to weld aluminum or the capacity to keep the intake from warping. But I could ship you a manifold and a bunch of bosses. :) thanks for the advice jw ------------------------------ From: "B.E. Herron" Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 19:52:51 -0800 Subject: Re: EFI & furthermore At 10:38 PM 8/24/97 -0700, you wrote: >Robert Harris wrote: >> >> One last time - please read the FAQ's just posted. > >Did that, thanks. > >> Words have >> meanings, - chemical, physical, electrical etc terms have fairly >> exact meanings. Use them as they are defined - when you don't >> you confuse the shit out of everyone and embarrass yourself and >> needlessly throw fire onto fuel. > >Oh, I never embarrass myself when I learn something, and thanks again. > >> Thought trains, concepts etc. get >> radically misunderstood when everyone is not speaking the same >> language. Remember, we are not politicians, seeking to deceive, >> just people trying to do what we can for our own personal needs. > >And mine is to learn, thank-you very much again. > >On the other hand, someone, say, as learned as yourself, should see past >the words, and recognize the concept. Like someone trying to understand >a person not speaking his native tongue. However, if you don't speak the >language expressed very well either, then you will have the shit >confused out of you. It's one of the benefits to everyone not speaking >the same language. Any shit in you will be confused out. > >Once again, thank-you so much. > >Oh, not to beat it to death, and to be perfectly clear, you state "Words >have >> meanings, - chemical, physical, electrical etc terms have fairly >> exact meanings." > >I already know that words have meanings, since I use them on a more or >less non-arbitrary basis, but what does "fairly exact" mean? I >understand that the english language also has context, and "fairly" is a >contradiction in context with "exact". Not to be so bold as to >contradict you outright, but I understand, and believe to be true, that >mathematics was "invented" as the "language" of science, due to its >exacting precision and unabiguity in fairly describing the various >scientific doctrines. > >Do you propose that we should defer to mathematics so that everyone, >regardless of tongue should fully and completely understand that of >which we speak? > >Terry > Terry wrote the above in response to Robert: I am new to this group and am monitoring it for ideas about my own efi projects of the future. An observation: Terry, you seem to be a "fairly" intelligent individual, however, your recent belligerance, antagonistic and attacking language make even your comprehensible statements go un-read because individuals like myself don't want to be bothered with dribble that has nothing to do with efi. Please try to get along with the others in this group and get back to the correct topic - ELECTRONIC FUEL INJECTION!!! I appologize to all of you here for the topic of efi since this has nothing to do with it, but enough is enough. Bradley E. Herron '66 Mustang Fastback '73 Camaro ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #297 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".