DIY_EFI Digest Sunday, 31 August 1997 Volume 02 : Number 299 In this issue: Re: CDI, accelerometer Re: Knock sensors Re: injector bosses Re: o2 sensor Re: injector bosses 3 wire GM sensor, sequential injection RE: Knock sensors Re: CDI, accelerometer Re: valve needed Re: injector bosses Re: valve needed Re: DIY-EFI Lurkers & furthermore :-) Re: Knock sensors Re: valve needed Re: valve needed See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: marchildon@xxx.net Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 08:42:26 -0400 Subject: Re: CDI, accelerometer At 03:22 PM 8/29/97 GMT, you wrote: >On Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:54:16 -0700 (PDT), "Robert D. McGhie" > wrote: > >>At 04:41 PM 8/28/97 +1000, Stuart wrote: > >>>Sept. 97 Silicon Chip magazine has a multiple spark discharge CDI >>>unit as a project. The kit is about A$100 from Dick Smith. > >>Could you post or email Dick Smith's address or how to contact him? > >POST IT!!!, since there are at least TWO of us that are interested!! >Gotta be several others lurking (this fact derived from the "Law of Net >Lurking, which states that for every unlurked inquiry, there are at >least several others that wanted to know but were too >bashful/lazy/whatever to ask". 8) > >Garfield > Dito // marchildon@xxx.net // // Alain Marchildon // ------------------------------ From: Frank F Parker Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 08:58:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Knock sensors > Thanks. Anybody got a 1-800 number for J&S? Web page? > J&S may have web page but do not know it. Their phone # is: 714-534-6975, designer is John Pizzuto. ( In Garden Grove, CA ) Regards, Frank Parker fparker@xxx.edu Motorsports Data Acquisition ------------------------------ From: Simon Bosworth Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 08:03:15 -0500 Subject: Re: injector bosses Garfield wrote: > > On Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:50:15 GMT, garfield@xxx.com (Garfield) > wrote: > > >OTOH, it's not THAT hard to find higher temp epoxies. What you want is > >an epoxy you heat to around 200degF to cure, and it will have a Tg > >around 300-350degF. Ciba Adhesives makes a couple; I'll try and track > >down part numbers and suppliers for for the list. OK? > > OK, that wasn't as bad as I expected; heh, only took me 2 whole bloody > hours on the phone; sheesh, I hope you guys appreciate this. > > Oh alright, enough whining. > > Ciba Adhesives (part of Ciba-Giegy) > > Epibond 1567-A/B40 > Nom. Serv. Temp. 350degF if use the 150degF cure. > 100:73 two-part semi-paste thixotropic, working time 20min, (thixotropic > means it doesn't run or sag on you...perfect...just what you want) > Cure schedule: 5days Room temp OR 1HR at 150degF > Packaging: 50mL "Accumix cartridges", sorta like a double-barrel > syringe. > Price: $12.54 ea. cartridge (note: 50mL probably enough to do several > heads worth). > BTW, this stuff is made primarily for Boeing. > > Ciba Adhesive: 800-367-8793 > Last I bought from them, they had a minimum of $100, but they can also > give you a list of distributors; but beware, the distributors may want a > minimum of 10 cartridges, anyways. Hey, if you can't get just one, lemme > know and we'll do a group buy of ten. No problemo, I can do that meself > if enough (10) folks are interested. > > Garfield Garfield, if you are doing a group buy I would be interested in 1 cartridge. Cheers, Simon - -- - ------------------------ Simon Bosworth simonb@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Frank F Parker Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 09:03:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: o2 sensor > > The part # for the sensor is "0-258-104-002". No, the point does not > > change with lead. I have used it in the tuning of V-8 race engines with > > high lead content "Turbo Blue" race fuel. Bosch literature says life > > is over 50 hrs at 1gm/gal BUT race fuel is way over that. Ours seem > > to last 20 hours or so. We have not bothered to trying cleaning them > > by running them with unleaded fuel but Bosch says it works. > > > > Frank Parker > > fparker@xxx.edu > > Motorsports Data Acquisition > > > thank you I did not get a chance to look on my desk. What did you have > to pay for it. Appx > > Steve The cost is about $180 last time I purchased ( 3 mo ago . Frank ------------------------------ From: Simon Bosworth Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 08:09:16 -0500 Subject: Re: injector bosses Garfield wrote: > > On Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:50:15 GMT, garfield@xxx.com (Garfield) > wrote: > > >but "high temp epoxy adhesives" especially the > >aluminum-filled varieties, would be ideal. > > OK, I posted a source for some high temp stuff in another post, but I > thought I should clarify something that I noticed a couple of ya are > assuming I meant. The fact that an epoxy is alum-filled doesn't of > itself mean that the epoxy is high temp. There are lots of lower Tg > epoxies that are alum-filled (which does help them to carry heat without > as high a temp rise, if the epoxy is in the heat path). What I meant by > the above, is that IF you start out with a high temp epoxy, that would > work good in this application, and IF you could IN ADDITION find one > that was alum-filled that would of course be even better. Clearer now? > > The alum-filling just makes the epoxy more physically stable (kinda like > a course matrix of alum bonded with vewy vewy thin layers of epoxy) AND > more thermally conductive, so if you have a hot part (a head) and a cool > part (an injector, hopefully cool) then the epoxy's thermal conductivity > helps it to not get so hot as heat is conducting from the head to the > injector. > > Oh, you knew that's what I meant already? Well, then what did you read > this for then, silly. 8) > > Garfield how about using one of the Aluminium (Aluminum) 'brazing' products that are available? These need a much lower heat than welding. Cheers, Simon - -- - ------------------------ Simon Bosworth simonb@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: TMatthe@xxx.com Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 11:19:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 3 wire GM sensor, sequential injection Anybody have the schematic for the GM 3 wire sensor? I have headers on my 84 Monte Carlo and I'm having trouble with the sensor cooling off and I want to wire in a heated sensor. Plus, can someone explain sequential injection? I've heard that there are a few different types (phased? and true?) I understand sequential inj. is fired in firing order, and I'd like to set up a sequential injection on my 69 455 Firebird, but since I have no experience in sequential inj (but plenty with batch fire) I would like to use the minimum amount of sensors specific to sequential injection. Any suggestions/comments/ stories on how someone else put sequential injection on a dinosaur? TIA, Tom ------------------------------ From: James Boughton Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 12:44:29 -0400 Subject: RE: Knock sensors Tom Cloud wrote: >I don't know if he's saying that those frequencies are the >resonant frequencies of those blocks -- I cirrusly (a Cloud >joke) doubt it ... I'd think the mass of the 5.0 and 5.8 would >make for a much lower resonance than 9.5k or even 6k. Does anyone >know? It is currently believed that knock is more a relationship of the bore diameter and the temperature of the burned gases in the combustion chamber as opposed to the actual resonance frequency of the block itself. >From Heywood's "Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals": "[autoignition theory] holds that when the fuel-air mixture in the end-gas region is compressed to sufficiently high pressures and temperatures, the fuel oxidation process-starting with the preflame chemistry and ending with rapid energy release-can occur spontaneously in parts or all of the end-gas region.....A shock wave propagates from the outer edge of this high-pressure end-gas region across the chamber at supersonic velocity, and an expansion wave propagates into the high-pressure region toward the near wall....The shock wave and expansion wave reflect off the walls of the chamber, eventually producing standing waves. Usually these standing waves are due to transverse gas vibration and are of substantial amplitude. The amplitude of the pressure oscillations builds up as the standing waves are established, and then decays as the gas motion is damped out. The frequency of the pressure oscillations (normally in the 5 to 10kHz range) decreases with time as the initially finite-amplitude supersonic pressure waves decay to smaller amplitude sound waves." Jim Boughton boughton@xxx.net ------------------------------ From: Webb Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 11:19:16 -0800 Subject: Re: CDI, accelerometer One more "lurker" interested :-) I've looked at a number of designs, and they are all interesting. I have a simple version that I designed on CAD, but never built. I used a 555 astable, set to 1 mS, with a counter that enabled the 555 when reset by the pickup, and disabledit after 4 cycles. The High voltage was another 555 astable, driving a 6.3 volt filiment transformer backwards (with 12V oscillation swing) to put out about 230 volts, which was then used to charge a capacitor, and the 4x 1ms pulses fired an SCR - into a CD coil. I figured if the thing hadn't fired after 4 tries, it wasn't about to - and at the max rpm I was interested in, the 4th firing was still looking at a dead cylinder, so no need to cut down the number of sparks at high RPM. 555's are usually thought of as only for hobbyists, but there are times when they produce very simple, elegant solutions. I'll dig this one out if anyone wants...as I said, the design is untested in practice, but it's simpler than the others I've seen, with maybe $1 worth of parts (excluding pickups and coil) marchildon@xxx.net wrote: > At 03:22 PM 8/29/97 GMT, you wrote: > >On Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:54:16 -0700 (PDT), "Robert D. McGhie" > > wrote: > > > >>At 04:41 PM 8/28/97 +1000, Stuart wrote: > > > >>>Sept. 97 Silicon Chip magazine has a multiple spark > discharge CDI > >>>unit as a project. The kit is about A$100 from Dick Smith. > > > >>Could you post or email Dick Smith's address or how to > contact him? > > > >POST IT!!!, since there are at least TWO of us that are > interested!! > >Gotta be several others lurking (this fact derived from the > "Law of Net > >Lurking, which states that for every unlurked inquiry, there > are at > >least several others that wanted to know but were too > >bashful/lazy/whatever to ask". 8) > > > >Garfield > > > > Dito > > // > marchildon@xxx.net > // > // Alain > Marchildon // ------------------------------ From: bwmsbldr@xxx.com (Bill Williams) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 16:05:35 EDT Subject: Re: valve needed Didn't the late CIS feedback systems use a regular electronic injector to modulate the pressure to the control piston? Wouldn't a 35 or 42 Lb/Hr injector do the job for you? - --- Bill in Boulder "Engineering as an Art Form" --- ------------------------------ From: clsnyde@xxx.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 20:48:48 GMT Subject: Re: injector bosses Just get a few sticks of aluminum brazing rod and zap them in. Not enough heat to warp the manifold, the melting point is high enough to withstand anything the engine is going to survive, it's simple to use, and not overly expensive. I got mine from Marelle Sales, PO Box 24120 Whitby, Ont. L1N 8X8 Phone 905 430-3811. Something like $45 canadian per lb. I have used it to put together a bike rack for my camper trailer, and canoe rack for my Aerostar and it has held up well. It is called 3.4.1 ideal rod. Published specs are 6,600 lb elastic limit, 33,000 elastic limit per sqare inch, 7800 lb maximum load, and 39000 lb/sq in tensile strength.Brinell hardness @500 kg is 100. Brinell hardness @xxx. Melting range is 715 to 735 F, and no flux is required. I do not know or care what its composition is, it works.> > >On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Seth wrote: > >> I deal with room temp cure epoxies pretty much all day ( lots of carbon >> fiber lamination and bonding) that stuff is the nasty aliphatic amine > >That's so cool. Carbon fibre is something I'd like to learn how to work >with. Are there any books/manuals that can get me started? Where do you >get your supplies from or is this at your place of work? > >> I might suggest a urethane adhesive, they often have higher sevice temps, >> gap fill better and adhere better than epoxies. They also can emit >> di-isocyanates, so you want to be a bit careful. But the stuff works >> where epoxy won't. >Does a charcoal filter mask remove isocyanates? I don't think it does, I >think you need a breathing aparatus (i.e. air line). Nasty stuff. I >kinda like the epoxy idea a bit better. > >> >> Personally, I weld if I can, but I am a welder at heart, and I like the >> look of a nice bead. > >Ditto, but I don't have the skills to weld aluminum or the capacity to keep >the intake from warping. But I could ship you a manifold and a bunch of >bosses. :) > >thanks for the advice >jw > > ------------------------------ From: clsnyde@xxx.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 20:58:07 GMT Subject: Re: valve needed How about setting the mixture a tad rich, then add a calibrated air bleed, using the duty valve from an electronic feedback Subaru EA81 2bbl setup? It is designed to run on a PWM signal controlled by a black box in conjunction with an O2 sensor, so should fit the bill perfectly. Was used on "87 Subaru Chaser in Canada, not sure what else. A better idea might be to use a Bosch KE Jetronic unit from, say, a VW FOX. The control pressure is controlled by a balance valve - vary the voltage, and the mixture varies with it.\ Just a thought, but I am seriously considering this system for my SOOB conversion - hopefully in a CH601 or Sprint in a couple of years.> >I need suggestions for an appropriate, available and affordable valve to bypass some fuel from the distributor block in a port injected CIS system. The object is to manage the mixture control of an aircraft engine. The CIS system is from Airflow Performace and much like the old Bendix systems. This injection system is used because it is not dependent on electrical power. The main pump is mechanical. The pressure is set at 25 psi, so the distributor block pressure will always see <25. > >With the system I am building, the manual mixture control will always be able to override the electronic control, again relieving the system of ultimate reliance on electrical power. We electronically spark one plug per cylinder and let a magneto continue to operate the other for the same reason. > >The challenge is to find a valve that operates much like an injector so that a PWM signal can slightly modify the injector pressure. Other than power requirements, the flow rating of the valve is not critical,the flow can be controlled with an orifice. The valve needs to pass a maximum of 2 gallons of fuel per hour, so if the duty cycle is maintained at 30% for cruise, a valve rated at 7 gph and capable of following a signal from 4 to 8 ms wide repeated as often as every 25 ms would be perfect. Is this in the range of injector performance? Perhaps I could simply inject back into the fuel system, using an off the shelf injector but the fittings and hardware would likely require a lot of machine work. > >Perhaps a better alternative is to set the manual mixture control slightly lean and then inject a small amount of additional fuel into the induction system just past the throttle body with a conventional injector. Will the available devices operate at such low pressure? Is the hookup hardware available for a single isolated injector used in this fashion? > >I agree this is a simplistic approach, but it avoids modifying the existing hardware. Your thoughts? > >------------------------------------- >John Carroll >jac@xxx.net > 08/30/97 00:33:59 > > > > > ------------------------------ From: Terry Martin Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 16:39:29 -0700 Subject: Re: DIY-EFI Lurkers & furthermore :-) Terry Martin wrote: > > I know there just has to be a Delco Powertrain lurker in here somewhere. > I'm gonna get flamed again but anyone know how to get the DERM to cough > up the crash data. It Lurks on the bus listening to gaddom nearly > everything and does a write down to non-volatile ram for about two > minutes after going into pre-crash mode. >insert< Should that have been rom? Given I'm going to have hit-men gunning for me for peeking into their precious DERM, does anyone have the entire bit-map for a '95 vin "S" Firebird PCM? My kid fiqured out before I did that his monster science fair project; (he's 13 and even more annoying than me. Hey, how 'bout I turn HIM loose on the group?); to build a robotics project from scratch could use all those nice I/O's on the PCM to run it, (I get em for nothing), and it comes in a nice handy hard waterproof shell, (good for underwater with SIR splicing), and a handy serial bus which is practically impervious to everything including a direct lightning hit. Try that with a PC. Anyhow, I'm way off EFI again, but I guarantee if I get the bitmap, somebody in DIY-EFI will be interested. I have pieces of it (and many other bits and bytes), but SCIENCE FAIR is looming. He'll post 'em up here if I, or rather my 13 yr old has to figure it out. Hey, Delco, you can make it a PR gesture, given I'm going to get it the hard way anyhow, so why not be gracious, it's only '95 stuff, and obsolete with OBD-II in any event. Having "Aquired without Delco co-operation" put on it in a big sign by a thirteen year old about to make press could be better managed. Mind you I'm no expert at secrecy spinning. :-) I love the fact that the same laws that say 13 year olds can do anything they gaddom well please includes copyright infringement. ;-) And thanks so much for putting OBD-II into '95 Jimmy SLT's. And '94 Caddy Fleetwood Brouham's. It's sooo much fun. Annoying as always, Terry ------------------------------ From: Terry Martin Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 16:49:11 -0700 Subject: Re: Knock sensors > Tom Cloud wrote: > > >I don't know if he's saying that those frequencies are the > >resonant frequencies of those blocks -- I cirrusly (a Cloud > >joke) doubt it ... I'd think the mass of the 5.0 and 5.8 would > >make for a much lower resonance than 9.5k or even 6k. Does anyone > >know? I would suspect a harmonic at those frequencies more than resonance. While resonance is frequently the cause of harmonics, one can produce an exceedingly energetic harmonic with no resonance at all. Terry ------------------------------ From: john_carroll Date: Sat, 30 Aug 97 23:22:21 PDT Subject: Re: valve needed - ---------------Original Message--------------- Thank you for the suggestion. The obvious answers often go right past me. The literature I have available over the phone with my son shows an air control valve on a '86 Subaru SPFI system. Is this the device? > > How about setting the mixture a tad rich, then add a calibrated air bleed, using the duty valve from an electronic feedback Subaru EA81 2bbl setup? It is designed to run on a PWM signal controlled by a black box in conjunction with an O2 sensor, so should fit the bill perfectly. Was used on "87 Subaru Chaser in Canada, not sure what else. A better idea might be to use a Bosch KE Jetronic unit from, say, a VW FOX. The control pressure is controlled by a balance valve - vary the voltage, and the mixture varies with it.\ Just a thought, but I am seriously considering this system for my SOOB conversion - hopefully in a CH601 or Sprint in a couple of years.> >I need suggestions for an appropriate, available and affordable valve to bypass some fuel from the distributor block in a port injected CIS system. The object is to manage the mixture control of an aircraft engine. The CIS system is from Airflow Performace and much like the old Bendix systems. This injection system is used because it is not dependent on electrical power. The main pump is mechanical. The pressure is set at 25 psi, so the distributor block pressure will always see <25. > >With the system I am building, the manual mixture control will always be able to override the electronic control, again relieving the system of ultimate reliance on electrical power. We electronically spark one plug per cylinder and let a magneto continue to operate the other for the same reason. > >The challenge is to find a valve that operates much like an injector so that a PWM signal can slightly modify the injector pressure. Other than power requirements, the flow rating of the valve is not critical,the flow can be controlled with an orifice. The valve needs to pass a maximum of 2 gallons of fuel per hour, so if the duty cycle is maintained at 30% for cruise, a valve rated at 7 gph and capable of following a signal from 4 to 8 ms wide repeated as often as every 25 ms would be perfect. Is this in the range of injector performance? Perhaps I could simply inject back into the fuel system, using an off the shelf injector but the fittings and hardware would likely require a lot of machine work. > >Perhaps a better alternative is to set the manual mixture control slightly lean and then inject a small amount of additional fuel into the induction system just past the throttle body with a conventional injector. Will the available devices operate at such low pressure? Is the hookup hardware available for a single isolated injector used in this fashion? > >I agree this is a simplistic approach, but it avoids modifying the existing hardware. Your thoughts? > >------------------------------------- >John Carroll >jac@xxx.net > 08/30/97 00:33:59 > > > > > - ----------End of Original Message---------- - ------------------------------------- jac@xxx.net 08/30/97 23:22:21 ------------------------------ From: john_carroll Date: Sat, 30 Aug 97 23:26:49 PDT Subject: Re: valve needed I believe it would. Thanks for the suggestion. After the suggestion in the other post, it is obvious that I should be injecting air not fuel. It would fail in the safe direction (rich) and not involve tapping into the fuel system. john carroll - ---------------Original Message--------------- Didn't the late CIS feedback systems use a regular electronic injector to modulate the pressure to the control piston? Wouldn't a 35 or 42 Lb/Hr injector do the job for you? - --- Bill in Boulder "Engineering as an Art Form" --- - ----------End of Original Message---------- - ------------------------------------- jac@xxx.net 08/30/97 23:26:49 ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #299 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".