DIY_EFI Digest Monday, 1 September 1997 Volume 02 : Number 300 In this issue: Re: valve needed Re: valve needed Re: valve needed Re: Renault FI? Re: Lighten up -Re: non-EFI crap Re: injector bosses Re: Lighten up -Re: non-EFI crap; Hey Frederic Re: injector bosses Re: leaded fuel/ o2 sensors Re: CDI, accelerometer Re: valve needed Re: Knock sensors 2nd try about injection... Re: 2nd try about injection... See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: clsnyde@xxx.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 16:01:19 GMT Subject: Re: valve needed > >---------------Original Message--------------- > >Thank you for the suggestion. The obvious answers often go right past me. > >The literature I have available over the phone with my son shows an air control valve on a '86 Subaru SPFI system. Is this the device? > No, the part I am referring to is not part of an EFI system, at least as far as I have been able to determine. The air control valve you speak of is the idle speed control. There is a possibility you could use this device, but it's flow capacity is an order of magnitude higher than the unit I was thinking of. According to "how to keep your subaru alive", page 206, '80 California Soobs, all 81-82 models, and all 83-84 non 4wd, non California models have Electronic Control Carbs. These "duty solenoids" regulate the air/fuel ratio in response to sensor input. The units I have, (have one in my hand) bolt onto the intake with 2 6mm bolts each, stand 2.5 " +/- high, with 2 3/16" hose nipples on each, at roughly 15 degrees separation. Each has a 2 wire oval plug. I am unable to find any identifying marks or part numbers, but the coil section is roghly 1 " in diameter, steel, with a square flange with 4 screws connecting it to the aluminum valve. Looks a little bit like a short, stocky, slightly mis-shapen injector with no tip. >> >> >How about setting the mixture a tad rich, then add a calibrated air bleed, >using the duty valve from an electronic feedback Subaru EA81 2bbl setup? It >is designed to run on a PWM signal controlled by a black box in conjunction >with an O2 sensor, so should fit the bill perfectly. Was used on "87 Subaru >Chaser in Canada, not sure what else. A better idea might be to use a Bosch >KE Jetronic unit from, say, a VW FOX. The control pressure is controlled by >a balance valve - vary the voltage, and the mixture varies with it.\ Just a >thought, but I am seriously considering this system for my SOOB conversion - >hopefully in a CH601 or Sprint in a couple of years.> > > >>I need suggestions for an appropriate, available and affordable valve to >bypass some fuel from the distributor block in a port injected CIS system. >The object is to manage the mixture control of an aircraft engine. The CIS >system is from Airflow Performace and much like the old Bendix systems. >This injection system is used because it is not dependent on electrical >power. The main pump is mechanical. The pressure is set at 25 psi, so the >distributor block pressure will always see <25. >> >>With the system I am building, the manual mixture control will always be >able to override the electronic control, again relieving the system of >ultimate reliance on electrical power. We electronically spark one plug per >cylinder and let a magneto continue to operate the other for the same reason. >> >>The challenge is to find a valve that operates much like an injector so >that a PWM signal can slightly modify the injector pressure. Other than >power requirements, the flow rating of the valve is not critical,the flow >can be controlled with an orifice. The valve needs to pass a maximum of 2 >gallons of fuel per hour, so if the duty cycle is maintained at 30% for >cruise, a valve rated at 7 gph and capable of following a signal from 4 to 8 >ms wide repeated as often as every 25 ms would be perfect. Is this in the >range of injector performance? Perhaps I could simply inject back into the >fuel system, using an off the shelf injector but the fittings and hardware >would likely require a lot of machine work. >> >>Perhaps a better alternative is to set the manual mixture control slightly >lean and then inject a small amount of additional fuel into the induction >system just past the throttle body with a conventional injector. Will the >available devices operate at such low pressure? Is the hookup hardware >available for a single isolated injector used in this fashion? >> >>I agree this is a simplistic approach, but it avoids modifying the existing >hardware. Your thoughts? >> >>------------------------------------- >>John Carroll >>jac@xxx.net >> 08/30/97 00:33:59 >> >> >> >> >> > > >----------End of Original Message---------- > >------------------------------------- >jac@xxx.net > 08/30/97 23:22:21 > > > > > ------------------------------ From: clsnyde@xxx.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 16:15:20 GMT Subject: Re: valve needed >---------------Original Message--------------- > Didn't the late CIS feedback systems use a regular electronic >injector to modulate the pressure to the control piston? Wouldn't a 35 or >42 Lb/Hr injector do the job for you? >--- Bill in Boulder "Engineering as >an Art Form" --- > > >----------End of Original Message---------- > >------------------------------------- >jac@xxx.net > 08/30/97 23:26:49 > The Bosch CIS with Lambda uses a duty valve in the fuel return line (very much like an EFI injector) to control lower chamber pressure separate from injection system pressure, by bleeding fuel back to the tank. Lower control (lower chamber) pressure translates to higher injection volume. Failure of this device would cause lean condition, unless it failed in the open (stuck) mode. The later (K-E Jetronic) version uses a balance valve, which is NOT pwm controlled but a basic moving coil type analog device, to vary the pressure. This unit also has an aluminum fuel distributor housing, rather than the cast iron. It is used on the FOX, made in Brazil and imported to north america for several years - as well as other models I have not yet identified. This would be my first choice, if I can aquire one at a reasonable cost in the near future. > > ------------------------------ From: john_carroll Date: Sun, 31 Aug 97 11:16:52 PDT Subject: Re: valve needed At altitude, the engines we care about are often run at WOT with far less than 1"Hg drop across the throttle body or carburator. The engine will be operating at perhaps 80% of sea level rated power. I am becoming concerned that the valve will need to have a lot of capacity. The engines displace from 3 to 4.5 liters. If we are to influence the flow by even 1 percent the valve will have to pass a couple of cubic feet per minute with very little pressure differential. Most large recip aircraft engines are not routinely operated at WOT for extended periods, but many of us experimental catagory builders need all we can get all the time. The question that really disrupts the air bypass approach is: If it is possible to get more air in at WOT why are we not doing it allready? I believe I need to add fuel to control the mixture. All thought are welcome. John Carroll >No, the part I am referring to is not part of an EFI system, at least as far >as I have been able to determine. The air control valve you speak of is the >idle speed control. There is a possibility you could use this device, but >it's flow capacity is an order of magnitude higher than the unit I was >thinking of. > >According to "how to keep your subaru alive", page 206, '80 California >Soobs, all 81-82 models, and all 83-84 non 4wd, non California models have >Electronic Control Carbs. These "duty solenoids" regulate the air/fuel ratio >in response to sensor input. > >The units I have, (have one in my hand) bolt onto the intake with 2 6mm >bolts each, stand 2.5 " +/- high, with 2 3/16" hose nipples on each, at >roughly 15 degrees separation. Each has a 2 wire oval plug. I am unable to >find any identifying marks or part numbers, but the coil section is roghly 1 >" in diameter, steel, with a square flange with 4 screws connecting it to >the aluminum valve. Looks a little bit like a short, stocky, slightly >mis-shapen injector with no tip. ------------------------------ From: Chris Morriss Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 18:18:21 +0100 Subject: Re: Renault FI? In message <199708290147.BAA104012@xxx.net>, Clare Snyder writes >>Hey gang- >> >> So, I'm in the u-pull salvage yard, pulling Bosch bits off of various cars >>for dirt cheap (Weber throttle body - $10 - woohoo!) when I come across a >>Renault Medallion. Now, most of the Renaults I've seen either have a TBI >>system or Bosch L-Jet, but this one had a funky cast cover over the a/f >>meter that read "Injection Renault". It was definitely a MPI system - >>anyone know what the specs are on it? Is it a derivative of something else? >>For the curious, I'm currently in the process of gathering bits to adapt a >>Bosch L-Jetronic system from a California-spec Renault Alliance 1.4 liter to >>my 1962 Alfa Romeo Giulietta 1.3 liter. The beauty part is that the nice >>Weber throttle body drops right into place on the stock intake manifold, a >>direct replacement for the stock Solex downdraft. Now I just need to figure >>out how to modify the manifold for the injectors.... >> >> >>Paul Witek >> >>zagato@xxx.net >>Shemp Mo-Din Italian Motorsports >>http://www.evansville.net/~zagato >> >> >AMC / RENIX system - a unit all it's own. I was looking for my manual- seam >to have misplaced it > I don't know about over in the US, but in the UK and mainland Europe Renault used the Renix multiport injection on the 2.2 litre engine used on the Renault 25. I think that the turbo versions of the Renault V6 used Renix as well. (The non-turbo versions used K-jetronic) - -- Chris Morriss ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 04:16:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Lighten up -Re: non-EFI crap >nasty neighbors. Although entertaining, the amount of mail was >ridiculous and had absolutely nothing to do with EFI. Hey Terry... I agree that straying off topic is amusing, however I do appreciate were most of you folks are coming from. With a list of this size, having 5% of the list commenting on one off-topic post makes for a tremendous amount of mail flow. I've even made "rules" that search for messages with key words and push them into specific folders where I read those messages first. The others, well, sit somewhere and get read when I have more leisure time. The joy of being on five lists. >Go ahead and flame me if that will make you feel more like a man but it >will not change the fact that this group gets pretty far off the subject Naaah, won't flame ya. Unless you are behind my non-efi hummer when it backfires :) And yes, I will be converting it using the TEC-II system probably in the fall. There, now I'm on-topic. Aaaah. Frederic Breitwieser Homebrew Automotive Mailing List Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/4605/index.html 1989 AG Hummer 4-Door 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 2000 Mid-Engine Sports Car - --- ------------------------------ From: James Weiler Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: injector bosses On Sat, 30 Aug 1997, Clare Snyder wrote: > Just get a few sticks of aluminum brazing rod and zap them in. Not enough > heat to warp the manifold, the melting point is high enough to withstand > anything the engine is going to survive, it's simple to use, and not overly > expensive. I got mine from Marelle Sales, PO Box 24120 Whitby, Ont. L1N 8X8 > Phone 905 430-3811. Something like $45 canadian per lb. I have used it to Thanks Clare this sounds ideal. Just to clarify (no pun intended), all I'll need is an oxy/acetylene torch right? This I have. How much brazing can you do with a pound? I've got 8 bosses going into an intake. Is one lb. enough? thanks again jw ------------------------------ From: Terry Martin Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 16:17:32 -0700 Subject: Re: Lighten up -Re: non-EFI crap; Hey Frederic Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > >nasty neighbors. Although entertaining, the amount of mail was > >ridiculous and had absolutely nothing to do with EFI. > > Hey Terry... > >Go ahead and flame me if that will make you feel more like a man but > Naaah, won't flame ya. Unless you are behind my non-efi hummer when it > backfires :) Hey Frederic... I thought that said when your non-efi humor backfires. :-) It just did, cause wut you said I said I didn't said you said I said it. (it's a slow day) Terry ------------------------------ From: garfield@xxx.com (Garfield) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 23:34:38 GMT Subject: Re: injector bosses On Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:21:11 -0700 (PDT), James Weiler wrote: >On Sat, 30 Aug 1997, Clare Snyder wrote: > >> Just get a few sticks of aluminum brazing rod and zap them in. Not = enough >> heat to warp the manifold, the melting point is high enough to = withstand >> anything the engine is going to survive, it's simple to use, and not = overly >> expensive. I got mine from Marelle Sales, PO Box 24120 Whitby, Ont. = L1N 8X8 >> Phone 905 430-3811. Something like $45 canadian per lb. I have used it= to > >Thanks Clare this sounds ideal. Just to clarify (no pun intended), all=20 >I'll need is an oxy/acetylene torch right? This I have. How much=20 >brazing can you do with a pound? I've got 8 bosses going into an=20 >intake. Is one lb. enough? I agree. I'd rather use a metallic bonding rather than epoxy too! Garfield ------------------------------ From: Craig Pugsley Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 09:52:01 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: leaded fuel/ o2 sensors > In the land downunder they are still using leaded fuel. With this > statement comes the question what type of o2 sensor is being used?? > second part can we get them in the states?? Minor correction here.. Have been using unleaded since 1986. All of the pre-86 EFI cars here would probably only be L-Jet (except maybe a few BMWs/Mercs) - no O2 sensor on those. Heated O2 sensors have a bit of a longer lifespan, but would only want to use them for a day or so I'd say. No doubt there are some expensive lead tolerant devices out there, but it would be cheaper to use standard production items. Cheers, Craig. http://www.3rotor.com/rotary ------------------------------ From: "Stuart Baly" Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 11:08:21 +1000 Subject: Re: CDI, accelerometer Dick Smith is at http://www.dse.com.au The kit is called "Multi-spark Capacitor Discharge Ignition" - it hasn't got the part number in Dick's ad. It costs $95.50Aus. ($1Aus = approx US75c). I'll quote some stuff from the article: - -"We do not recommend using the system on six cylinder and V8 engines unless you can improve the lead dress of the spark plug leads so that each lead is more widely separated from its neighbour. Nor do we recommend using this CDI on any car with an engine management computer. We take the attitude that the factory designed ignition system will always be optimum for the particular car." - -Usable to beyond 1000 sparks/second - -Regulated 300V supply for consistent spark energy - -45mJ per spark - -Spark separation approx. 0.5ms - -Number of sparks per firing (V8 figures - 10 sparks@750rpm falling to 2 sparks@7500rpm) - - Spark duration approx 200 microseconds - - Will work down to 5V battery voltage (needs at least 9V at startup to start inverter) - - Multiple discharge can be disabled if necessary The circuit uses an IR2155 IC to drive an inverter via two MTP3055E MOSFETs. Another IR2155 is used as an oscillator to do the multispark thing using two IRF822 MOSFETs to do the firing. Stuart. ======================================================== Stuart Baly (s.baly@xxx.au) Technical Officer Cape Grim Baseline Air Pollution Station '71 Datsun 510, '81 Yamaha RD350LC, '89 Kawasaki GPz900R ======================================================== ------------------------------ From: Function First Motorsports Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 21:23:45 Subject: Re: valve needed Howdy John How about using a pressure regulator to adjust the control pressure. This will give you the most powerful control over the operating paramiters available. One question, 25 psi doesn't seem like enough to open the flow valves to the injector on a CIS. Have you checked this yet? Or am I wrong and this is not a modifyed Bosch system. At 12:33 AM 8/30/97 PDT, john_carroll wrote: > >I need suggestions for an appropriate, available and affordable valve to bypass some fuel from the distributor block in a port injected CIS system. > >------------------------------------- >John Carroll >jac@xxx.net > 08/30/97 00:33:59 > > > > > Charlie North Function First Motorsports "If it ain't broke, modify it!" Colebrook Conn. ffmd@xxx.net ------------------------------ From: "Jason K. Schechner" Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 21:51:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Knock sensors On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Tom Cloud wrote: > nobody answered my question (well, not this particular one) > > surely someone out there knows where the knock sensor is > located on the 302/351 ???? Strangely enough the Mustang GT's 302 doesn't have a knock sensor. Anyone know why? - -Jason 79 Bronco (351M, C6, 33" BFG AT's) GRN GYNT - offroad monster 79 Bronco (400M, C6, 31" Wranglers) blue - road beast 95 Mustang GT - Eibachs, 3.55's, K&N, 13deg timing - ----- Jason K. Schechner - Unix Sysadmin - Oracle Corp check out www.cauce.org and help ban spam-mail. ------------------------------ From: TMatthe@xxx.com Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 00:08:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 2nd try about injection... Anybody have the schematic for the GM 3 wire sensor? I have headers on my 84 Monte Carlo and I'm having trouble with the sensor cooling off and I want to wire in a heated sensor. Plus, can someone explain the different types of sequential injection? I've heard that there are a few different types (phased? and true?) I understand sequential inj. is fired in firing order, and I'd like to set up a sequential injection on my 69 455 Firebird, but since I have no experience in sequential inj , I would like to use the minimum amount of extra sensors specific to sequential injection. Any suggestions/comments/ stories on how someone else put sequential injection on a old dinosaur? TIA, Tom ------------------------------ From: peter paul fenske Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 00:31:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: 2nd try about injection... Hi Tom Well I have used the four wire ford O2 sensor in my Gm projects. Email me if you want the pinout.. With sequention, there is no V8 Gm sequential application till the LT1 came out in 92.. You could use the 92-93 P4 or the later PCMs to accomplish this but you will need to provide a cam signal low and hi res along with the opti spark signals.. It could be done GL:peter At 12:08 AM 9/1/97 -0400, you wrote: >Anybody have the schematic for the GM 3 wire sensor? I have headers on my 84 >Monte Carlo and I'm having trouble with the sensor cooling off and I want to >wire in a heated sensor. Plus, can someone explain the different types of >sequential injection? I've heard that there are a few different types >(phased? and true?) I understand sequential inj. is fired in firing order, >and I'd like to set up a sequential injection on my 69 455 Firebird, but >since I have no experience in sequential inj , I would like to use the >minimum amount of extra sensors specific to sequential injection. Any >suggestions/comments/ stories on how someone else put sequential injection on >a old dinosaur? >TIA, >Tom > > ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #300 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".