DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, 2 September 1997 Volume 02 : Number 301 In this issue: [admin] List services (automated monthly post) Injector bosses & stuff Re: injector bosses Engine temperature rated epoxies: JB-Weld? Re: fuel filter location Re: Ignition timing set-up O2 sensor 4wire Magnetti Marelli EFI system programming. Re: Ignition timing set-up Re: Magnetti Marelli EFI system programming. Re: 2nd try about injection... Re: 2nd try about injection... Re: Injector bosses & stuff Re: 2nd try about injection... Re: Injector bosses & stuff SwagAero's Ping Sensor & Indicator Circuitry Weld-L's Re: O2 sensor 4wire Re: Weld-L's Re: Weld-L's Re: toyota injectors See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jsg (John S Gwynne) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 06:10:07 -0400 Subject: [admin] List services (automated monthly post) This message is post monthly as a reminder of the available list services. For help: Send "help" to Majordomo@xxx. 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WWW site (for diy_efi and efi332): http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/ Please send information to be added to this posting to jsg@xxx. John ------------------------------ From: Rich Mauruschat Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 13:40:31 +0100 Subject: Injector bosses & stuff Various questions have been asked about fitting injector bosses and compatible epoxies; here are a few of my own experiences which may be of assistance:- I have fitted bosses into a 4-cyl. manifold intended for use with Ford 2.0l SOHC 'Pinto' with Weber DCOE carbs. Turned up from HE30 aluminium 19mm O/D, 14mm I/D to fit injector o-ring; TIG welded into manifold (approx. 6mm wall thickness), ground away the excess projecting material in the port, and all with no apparent warping of the mounting face. I considered epoxy fixing but couldn't bring myself to do it, welding just seemed the right way!. I have previously looked at epoxy type materials for the purpose of building up the inlet ports to improve flow velocities, at the time Devcon came up with some good info. (sorry not to hand at the moment - I will try to find..) I was recommended "Titanium Putty", considered to cope with inlet port temperatures, inert to oil/fuel, and a very similar thermal expansion characteristic to cast iron, I'm sure there were others equally as applicable to aluminium. (Have the Americans started using aluminium in engines yet? - Ford "pinto" 4 cyl. = same weight as V8, same size as V8, but half the displacement of V8 !?). Hope this is of interest. Rich. (Ford Escort RS2000 - very nose-heavy.) ------------------------------ From: clsnyde@xxx.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 16:00:05 GMT Subject: Re: injector bosses > > >On Sat, 30 Aug 1997, Clare Snyder wrote: > >> Just get a few sticks of aluminum brazing rod and zap them in. Not enough >> heat to warp the manifold, the melting point is high enough to withstand >> anything the engine is going to survive, it's simple to use, and not overly >> expensive. I got mine from Marelle Sales, PO Box 24120 Whitby, Ont. L1N 8X8 >> Phone 905 430-3811. Something like $45 canadian per lb. I have used it to > >Thanks Clare this sounds ideal. Just to clarify (no pun intended), all >I'll need is an oxy/acetylene torch right? This I have. How much >brazing can you do with a pound? I've got 8 bosses going into an >intake. Is one lb. enough? > >thanks again >jw > > Even a turbo-swirl propane or MAPP torch can do the job, but I did use acetelene. I still have about 18 feet of the stuff left from my one lb. It is quite light, so a couple ounces would likely do the job. This is roughly 1/8" diameter rod. I suspect a lb would do about 20 feet of joint. ------------------------------ From: Daniel Burk Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 13:11:42 -0700 Subject: Engine temperature rated epoxies: JB-Weld? Has anyone tried JB-weld to epoxy in the bosses? The stuff claims to be useful for a million uses including the repair of cracked engine blocks... I've seen several motorcycles with JB-welded crank cases that leaked nary a drop of oil. I've played with it for a couple of projects, and even used it to bond thermocouples to polycarbonate. It seems to hold up to about 300 degrees F before it becomes really pliable. Since the bosses are probably not under lots of tension (or should not be, anyway) why not use it? Dan ------------------------------ From: "B.E. Herron" Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 02:07:59 -0800 Subject: Re: fuel filter location At 02:48 PM 8/12/97 +1200, you wrote: > >This is what I'm doing....... >Low pressure pump feeding the surge tank (in the boot), efi pump >feeding fuel rail (from ST), out from regulator going back to surge >tank, surge tank over flow going back to tank, Fuel tank vented to >atmosphere. >This should give good pressure regulation and no pressure build up in >the ST. > >Cheers > >Simon > Sorry for the late response, but got WAY behind on reading my mail. Why would you feed a surge tank (ST) with a mechanical pump and then feeding forward with the electric pump? Most new cars use and in-tank pump (electric) and return directly to the tank. Also, any other installations I've seen have only an electric pump (as close to the tank as possible) with a return line to the tank or just before the pump. As long as the tank is vented, the pressure regulation should be addequate. Bradley E. Herron '66 Mustang Fastback '73 Camaro RS ------------------------------ From: "B.E. Herron" Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 02:08:05 -0800 Subject: Re: Ignition timing set-up At 10:48 AM 8/26/97 -0500, you wrote: >> >> Help ... I've done a lot of work rebuilding a Ford 351W for >> >> If I set the timing to give good low end response (requires >> 20 to 25 degrees advanced at 600 rpm, no vacuum), I get >> clatter under load at high rpm's. >> >I've been battling much the same problem with my 351W >DuraSpark/MSD-6A combo. I run a fairly warm cam (Comp-cams >dual-pattern hydraulic), & recently switched from a Holley >650 to an Edelbrock 750. I've tried both ported & direct >vacuum advance. I've turned the vacuum advance adjustment >screw to its limit for least advance, and run direct >vacuum presently, with about 10 degrees idle advance (mech). I >ended up setting the carb fairly rich to reduce pre-ignition(?) >at part throttle accel (like trying to maintain speed on >an uphill grade in 5th). Then my O2 sensor says I'm a bit >rich on level ground. Playing with the timing light in >the garage, I see way beyond 30 degrees advance at 3000 RPM >with the vacuum hooked up, causing pre-ignition. > >Like you, best idle is obtained with about 20 degrees >advance (vacuum + mechanical). I wouldn't recommend >setting idle mechanical advance beyond 12 degrees, or >your total advance at 3000 will be over 30 (no vacuum), > >Realistically, most of my problems are due to attempting >to operate the engine outside its optimum point. I have >a cam, carb, intake (Torker-II), and heads (Dart-II) that >are intended for 3000-6000 RPM, yet I want to cruise at >2000 RPM in 5th. > >-- >Matthew D. Sale, IC Development Engineer, Delco Electronics Corp. >msale@xxx.net/~msale >'69 Mustang 351W 5-spd (13.464@xxx. > >All responses are my own and should not be mistaken >for those of Delco Electronics or General Motors. > Mathew is correct. Idle advance (mechanical only) should be 10 to 12 degrees, no more. Idle advance (machanical+vacuum)) should be 20 to 25 degrees. Total advance (mechanical) can be anywhere between 30 and 36 degrees for max power. Your vacuum canister should be set to give total advance (machanical+vacuum) in the same range for total mechanical advance or detonation results. Bradley E. Herron '66 Mustang Fastback '73 Camaro RS ------------------------------ From: John O Hornfeck Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 15:59:58 -0700 Subject: O2 sensor 4wire I saw that someone mentioned a Ford 4 wire O2 sensor. Is there any sensors/brands that would offer me an alternative to the Toyota 4 wire sensor I have to replace this week? Thank you John O ------------------------------ From: Chris Wilson Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 22:16:25 +0100 Subject: Magnetti Marelli EFI system programming. Hi all.I am a bit of a lurker here,trying to learn what I can,but I have an unresolveable problem,at the moment. I have bought a Reynard Formula 3 single seater,with an Alfa Romeo 2 litre F3 twin spark engine.(A Novamotor unit from Italy).Novamotor use a Magnetti Marelli ECU to operate the injection and ignition,but on first glance it looked very much like a Weber Alpha system.I understand these,and have access to the interface and software for pulling the map,and modifying it. To my annoyance,I am told that only Novamotor Italy have the software to mess with this Magnetti Marelli system,and being in the UK,this is somewhat inconvenient... :-) Am I stuck with the map it comes with,or is there a way to paly with this ECU? If it is a no hoper,what might I replace the ECU with,that would allow _me_ to re map the sytem on _our_ dyno,with sensibly priced software and interface,and yet leave as much of the rest of the system intact? At a glance we seem to have air inlet temp,throttle position,water temp,crank position.maybe distributor position,and maybe a knock sensor. TIA for any info on this set up ! - -- Best Regards, Chris Wilson. Gatesgarth Racing Developments Gatley,Cheshire,UK http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~komondor http://195.44.34.159 ------------------------------ From: Johnny Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 16:55:10 -0700 Subject: Re: Ignition timing set-up B.E. Herron wrote: > > Mathew is correct. Idle advance (mechanical only) should be 10 to 12 > degrees, no more. Idle advance (machanical+vacuum)) should be 20 to 25 > degrees. Total advance (mechanical) can be anywhere between 30 and 36 > degrees for max power. Your vacuum canister should be set to give total > advance (machanical+vacuum) in the same range for total mechanical advance > or detonation results. I'm not sure if I get this last statement. First of all, since manifold pressure equals atmospheric pressure when at WOT, there is no vacuum advance involved in total advance. What do you mean when you say "in the same range for total mechanical advance"? Idle advance, or static advance is just a function of where that happens to end up after you set your total advance. Low and midrange rpm mechanical advance is just a function of how much advance curve rate you can get away with programming in at WOT before detonation, on the way to your total advance at max rpm/max power. Vacuum advance setting is just a function of how much part throttle advance you can get away with programming in after you have set your total advance and mechanical advance curve, without detonation. - -j- ------------------------------ From: "WILMAN" Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 08:18:20 +0800 Subject: Re: Magnetti Marelli EFI system programming. - ---------- > From: Chris Wilson > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Cc: chris@xxx.com > Subject: Magnetti Marelli EFI system programming. > Date: Tuesday, September 02, 1997 5:16 AM > > Hi all.I am a bit of a lurker here,trying to learn what I can,but I have > an unresolveable problem,at the moment. > > I have bought a Reynard Formula 3 single seater,with an Alfa Romeo 2 litre > F3 twin spark engine.(A Novamotor unit from Italy).Novamotor use a > Magnetti Marelli ECU to operate the injection and ignition,but on first > glance it looked very much like a Weber Alpha system.I understand > these,and have access to the interface and software for pulling the > map,and modifying it. > > To my annoyance,I am told that only Novamotor Italy have the software to > mess with this Magnetti Marelli system,and being in the UK,this is > somewhat inconvenient... :-) > > Am I stuck with the map it comes with,or is there a way to paly with this > ECU? What is the exact model number printed on the ECU? There should be a label. > > If it is a no hoper,what might I replace the ECU with,that would allow > _me_ to re map the sytem on _our_ dyno,with sensibly priced software and > interface,and yet leave as much of the rest of the system intact? At a > glance we seem to have air inlet temp,throttle position,water temp,crank > position.maybe distributor position,and maybe a knock sensor. > Try Gems. They offer a full range of programmable ECU's. The programming software is free and you use a laptop for programming. Their email address is gems@xxx. By the way, it is a British company! > TIA for any info on this set up ! > > -- > Best Regards, Chris Wilson. > > Gatesgarth Racing Developments > Gatley,Cheshire,UK > > http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~komondor > http://195.44.34.159 > ------------------------------ From: clsnyde@xxx.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 00:36:04 GMT Subject: Re: 2nd try about injection... >Anybody have the schematic for the GM 3 wire sensor? I have headers on my 84 >Monte Carlo and I'm having trouble with the sensor cooling off and I want to >wire in a heated sensor. Plus, can someone explain the different types of >sequential injection? I've heard that there are a few different types >(phased? and true?) I understand sequential inj. is fired in firing order, >and I'd like to set up a sequential injection on my 69 455 Firebird, but >since I have no experience in sequential inj , I would like to use the >minimum amount of extra sensors specific to sequential injection. Any >suggestions/comments/ stories on how someone else put sequential injection on >a old dinosaur? >TIA, >Tom Use a HEGO from a ford 5.0 litre. Black / lt green wire is ground. Dark blue/light green is HEGO signal, and grey/yellow is 12 volt fused power on 88 lincoln. On 4 cyl 88 stang, hego signal is lt grn/purple. On 88 3.0 and 3.8 Taurus,fused power is purple/orange, ground is black/lt grn, signal is dk grn/purple. > ------------------------------ From: swagaero Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 18:58:02 -0700 Subject: Re: 2nd try about injection... Clare Snyder wrote: > > >Anybody have the schematic for the GM 3 wire sensor? I have headers on my 84 > >Monte Carlo and I'm having trouble with the sensor cooling off and I want to > >wire in a heated sensor. Plus, can someone explain the different types of > >sequential injection? I've heard that there are a few different types > >(phased? and true?) I understand sequential inj. is fired in firing order, > >and I'd like to set up a sequential injection on my 69 455 Firebird, but > >since I have no experience in sequential inj , I would like to use the > >minimum amount of extra sensors specific to sequential injection. Any > >suggestions/comments/ stories on how someone else put sequential injection on > >a old dinosaur? > >TIA, > >Tom > > Use a HEGO from a ford 5.0 litre. Black / lt green wire is ground. Dark > blue/light green is HEGO signal, and grey/yellow is 12 volt fused power on > 88 lincoln. > On 4 cyl 88 stang, hego signal is lt grn/purple. On 88 3.0 and 3.8 > Taurus,fused power is purple/orange, ground is black/lt grn, signal is dk > grn/purple. > > use a Cadillac northstar system change injectors to correct flow advance timing fatten fuel curve raise rpm limit. simple system to change. Steve Parkman - -- ----|------||------|---- --|------[]------|-- 0/ \0 www.flash.net/~swagaero ------------------------------ From: James Weiler Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 19:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Injector bosses & stuff Thanks for the sharing the advice Rich. I take it your intake was cast iron? I didn't know the pinto engines were that heavy. I used to have a 2.3 and from the way it went I just assumed it was alot lighter than an 8. Oh well, thanks again. jw ------------------------------ From: Mike Wesley Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 22:44:21 -0400 Subject: Re: 2nd try about injection... Clare Snyder wrote: > > >Anybody have the schematic for the GM 3 wire sensor? I have headers on my 84 > >Monte Carlo and I'm having trouble with the sensor cooling off and I want to > >wire in a heated sensor. Plus, can someone explain the different types of > >sequential injection? I've heard that there are a few different types > >(phased? and true?) I understand sequential inj. is fired in firing order, > >and I'd like to set up a sequential injection on my 69 455 Firebird, but > >since I have no experience in sequential inj , I would like to use the > >minimum amount of extra sensors specific to sequential injection. Any > >suggestions/comments/ stories on how someone else put sequential injection on > >a old dinosaur? > >TIA, > >Tom > > Use a HEGO from a ford 5.0 litre. Black / lt green wire is ground. Dark > blue/light green is HEGO signal, and grey/yellow is 12 volt fused power on > 88 lincoln. > On 4 cyl 88 stang, hego signal is lt grn/purple. On 88 3.0 and 3.8 > Taurus,fused power is purple/orange, ground is black/lt grn, signal is dk > grn/purple. > > Those would be vehicle wiring harness colors. The actual HEGO wiring is: Black: Sensor Output White: Heater (+/- doesn't matter) White: Heater (+/- doesn't matter) Gray: Sensor Return (GND) If you use a Ford 3 wire sensor, it won't have the Gray wire as it uses the case as GND. Mike.... ------------------------------ From: Brian Knowles Date: Mon, 1 Sep 97 20:27:44 -0700 Subject: Re: Injector bosses & stuff > >Thanks for the sharing the advice Rich. I take it your intake was cast iron? > >I didn't know the pinto engines were that heavy. I used to have a 2.3 >and from the way it went I just assumed it was alot lighter than an 8. >Oh well, thanks again. > >jw > Recently weighed a Turbo T-Bird 2.3 litre 4. 380 lbs, dry, incl turbo, VAF, all accessories needed to run, no A/C, no P/S, no motor mounts, flywheel but no clutch. I believe that a similar equip 3.8 V6 is about 50 lb lighter, don't have accurate weight on the iron Ford V8. The 215 BOP/Rover aluminum V8 engine comes in at 345 lbs w/2bbl Rochester and Olds iron exhaust manifolds. Brian ------------------------------ From: garfield@xxx.com (Garfield) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 03:34:36 GMT Subject: SwagAero's Ping Sensor & Indicator Circuitry On Mon, 01 Sep 1997 18:58:02 -0700, swagaero wrote: >Steve Parkman Hey Steve. Just incase you thought that because nobody responded publically to your PROMISE to post your 3-LED Ping Sensor & Display circuit, we didn't care. Oh, "ou contraire", I'm sure I'm not alone in waiting with baited breath for you to post the thing on Tues. I saw a picture of this thang in Contact! magazine several months ago, and swore I'd send in the $5 Mark said yous guys were asking fer it, but alas, I flaked. Well, how bout this?, SINCE you're gonna post it for free, I do hereby solemnly sware before the entire DIY_EFI community, that I owe you TWO FlyIn beers the next time I have a chance to pay. OK? Just wanted to encourage you to Go On! Garfield ------------------------------ From: Brock and Jennifer Fraser Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 22:52:48 -0500 Subject: Weld-L's >You can buy pipe pieces called "Weld-L's" from hydraulic shops. >Heavy wall tubing pieces bent into 45,90,180 degree bends. > >They come in stainless if desired. I havn't used them yet but >A guy at one of the turbo engineering outfits recomended >them to me for building a custom exhaust to feed a turbo. mild then building the permanant unit in stainless. > >BTW they are CAST not tubing. SO they are fairly beefy. Does anybody have a source for these "weld-L's"? I've called the local hydraulic supply houses and they don't have a clue what I'm talking about. I've done a web-search as well, but come up empty, only to find thin-wall tubing. Either stainless or "mild" would be great for my exhaust plumbing application. I'd like something that's about 1.5" I.D. I don't know what kind of wall thicknesses we are talking about for these "weld-L's"... Thank you, Brock Fraser fraser@xxx.net ------------------------------ From: Seth Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 21:36:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: O2 sensor 4wire On Mon, 1 Sep 1997, John O Hornfeck wrote: > I saw that someone mentioned a Ford 4 wire O2 sensor. > Is there any sensors/brands that would offer me an alternative to the > Toyota 4 wire sensor I have to replace this week? > Thank you > > John O > > My recollection is that a 4 wire is power and ground for the heater , groundfor the sensor, in case the exhaust system is "floating" and the signal for the sensor signal. A well grounded 3 wire should work, or use the sensor ground to ground the exhaust. Just an idea Seth ------------------------------ From: Johnny Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 22:25:42 -0700 Subject: Re: Weld-L's Brock and Jennifer Fraser wrote: > > >You can buy pipe pieces called "Weld-L's" from hydraulic shops. > >Heavy wall tubing pieces bent into 45,90,180 degree bends. > > > >They come in stainless if desired. I havn't used them yet but > >A guy at one of the turbo engineering outfits recomended > >them to me for building a custom exhaust to feed a turbo. > mild then building the permanant unit in stainless. > > > >BTW they are CAST not tubing. SO they are fairly beefy. > > Does anybody have a source for these "weld-L's"? I've called the local > hydraulic supply houses and they don't have a clue what I'm talking about. > I've done a web-search as well, but come up empty, only to find thin-wall > tubing. > > Either stainless or "mild" would be great for my exhaust plumbing > application. I'd like something that's about 1.5" I.D. I don't know what > kind of wall thicknesses we are talking about for these "weld-L's"... > Did you try Ed's? - -j- ------------------------------ From: Michael McBroom Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 23:24:50 -0700 Subject: Re: Weld-L's Brock and Jennifer Fraser wrote: > Does anybody have a source for these "weld-L's"? I've called the local > hydraulic supply houses and they don't have a clue what I'm talking about. > I've done a web-search as well, but come up empty, only to find thin-wall > tubing. Try a place like Republic Supply. I believe they have an office in Norwalk, CA -- sorry, no phone or address handy anymore. Any other supplier to the pipefitting trade, refineries, surface facilities having to do with fluids management, etc., should be able to help. - -- Best, Michael McBroom '87 745T 123k w/APC Visit the Volvo Performance Site: '88 765T 156k http://mcbrooms.com/volvo _________________________________________________________________________ Graduate Student, Linguistics Author of Research Interest: Biological Origins =McBroom's Camera Bluebook= of Language http://mcbrooms.com California State University, Fullerton _________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: David Chambers Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 17:48:17 +1000 Subject: Re: toyota injectors Hi, I am building a computer to run a friends 20 valve 4AGE toyota motor in a race car. The question i have is does any one know the driving requirements for the injectors on this motor. All i know at this stage is that they measure 34 ohms coil resistance. I am hoping that these are high impedance injectors and can be all wired in parallel and fired by one FET to ground. Also does any one know anything about how the variable valve timing works on this motor. Thanks David Chambers ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #301 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".