DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 5 September 1997 Volume 02 : Number 306 In this issue: Re: Weld-L's Re: Display Tech... Re: Fluorescent display Re: injector bosses Re: Fluorescent display Re: 351W observations Re: Fluorescent display Re: 351W observations popping at wot Re: Injectors resistance Re: Injectors resistance Re: Injectors resistance Re: Fluorescent display Electroluminescent Info Re: Injectors resistance Re: Injectors resistance Re: Electroluminescent Info Re: electroluminescent displays (was Re: fluorescent displays Re: Fluorescent display Re: injector bosses Re: Injectors resistance Re: Injectors resistance Re: Water Injection Re: Fluorescent display Dud injector ??......Help Re: Water Injection Re: Water Injection Re: Dud injector ??......Help Re: Water Injection Re: electroluminescent displays (was Re: fluorescent displays Re: Injectors resistance Re: Dud injector ??......Help OLE BUHL RACING APS See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Cloud Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 07:12:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Weld-L's >>so ..... has anyone tried brazing or silver soldering ??? I'd >>think the brazing would hold up quite well but would suspect the >>silver solder -- esp if in a bend on the outer curve where it >>gets the direct blast from the exhaust. The advantage of the silver >>solder is you can work with stainless (don't need heli-arc) >Doesn't work. Well, worse, it does work for a while, then it fails. >Typical mild steel exhaust has to be fusion welded or it will crack. I >also has to have slip joints for expansion, and must be suspended just >so, or it will crack. > >Silver-soldered stainless is an interesting idea I've never seen used, >have no idea if it would work. silver soldering stainless is the only way I know to join it other than heli-arc .... it works okay, in my experience -- though that's limited and there are probably alloys that it doesn't work well with ... dunno. My problem is that it seems it would ablate away until a leak occured -- esp in a bend in the direct path of the exhaust flow ??? Tom Cloud All generalizations are false (there are NO absolutes) ------------------------------ From: Tom Cloud Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 07:45:57 -0500 Subject: Re: Display Tech... >I, too, saw the cool fluorescent displays in Summit - what impressed me was >the A/F ratio meter that was audacious enough to give a numerical stoich >value. > >Other interesting display technologies exist, too. A nice summary of >several different styles is located at: > >http://www.ieeinc.com/rghtdis.htm > >I mean, how cool would it be to have a DC-plasma display in your dash? > > >Paul Witek here's what I wanted (including the digital readout of A:F ratios 8^) - autodimming with change in ambient photon intensity/clusters - ability to "cascade" the dimming function so all could be controlled by one unit ... so they'd all track (but each unit should have the autodim independently so they can be used alone) - a programmable over/under alarm/indicator - the alarm function should have a signal on the connector of the gauge (like the auto-dim function) that allows an alarm console or whatever to collect all alarms and do whatever 8^) - should have a easily readable display in bright or dim light - should not be "harsh" like the LED displays - the electroluminescent backlights look very nice, IMHO Designing the above isn't difficult -- it's the danged display and backlighting itself that seems to be the booger (a long, stringy one at that ;-) The other factor is should it be digital or analog ?? Analog displays give the best indication of ROC (rate-of-change) and direction, whereas digital gives the most accurate (?? depends) data -- certainly the most resolution. Digital displays are the easiest and the cheapest -- good analog meter movements sell for $50 and up and then you gotta add the electronics. Analog bar-graph displays leave my cold ..... not enough resolution and I've never seen any with "tick" marks and scale markings that come close to what you get with a "real" meter. Tom Cloud All generalizations are false (there are NO absolutes) ------------------------------ From: Tom Cloud Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:23:50 -0500 Subject: Re: Fluorescent display >You can find this type of display on farnell ( http://www.farnell.com ) . all I found at that URL was a bunch of nice flags for various countries Tom Cloud All generalizations are false (there are NO absolutes) ------------------------------ From: Dan Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 09:42:48 -0400 Subject: Re: injector bosses Came across some info that might help on injector welding or gluing. Aremco Products (914) 762-0685 makes a high-temp sealant called Ceramicbond 569 for bonding ceramic and steel components in foundry molten transfer systems. Water-based, 200DegF cure at 2 hours, good to 3,200 DegF. They also make a ceramic paint for carbon steel called Ceramacoat CP3000, 200DegF at 30 Min, good to 1,500DegF. Cotronics Corp (718) 646-7996 makes a sealant called Duraseal 1531 for metals, glass, ceramics and plastics up to 650 DegF. Dan L ------------------------------ From: Tom Cloud Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:44:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Fluorescent display nicu alexandru wrote (and I tried to reply to his return address, but it bounced): >You can find this type of display on farnell ( http://www.farnell.com ) . >Attached you can find one aplication ( for bar graf , but this it's not important ) >for this type of display. > > >Attachment Converted: C:\UTCONN\EUDORA\ATTACH~1\VACUUM.PS > tried to read the VACUUM.PS file and got an error Unrecoverable error: undefinedfilename in file Operand stack: r C:/download/car/engineer/LM3916.pdf Tom Cloud All generalizations are false (there are NO absolutes) ------------------------------ From: Tom Cloud Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:00:11 -0500 Subject: Re: 351W observations > ................. but you can't >beat a programmable ignition. Electromotive (oh no that word!) has a >nice distributorless ignition that'll let you dial in your curve. It'll >accept vaccuum imputs as well. I looked for Electromotive on the web ... found Electromotive Systems that makes crane controllers -- no automotive stuff I keep hearing about them .... how do I find them. I've looked at several "programmable" ignition systems in the Summit and JEG's catalogs and none seem to do what I want -- the Electromotive does oops, found Electromotive at http://www.electromotive-inc.com/ > There's a ton of aftermarket fuel managements that do ign. as well, my >best recommendation is to get one system that does it all. Hell, I >think SDS has a system for about $600.00/us that doesn't need a lap top, >it's got it's own handheld programmer. It'll do ign., fuel, idle comp, >knock, etc. etc. etc. Never used it myself, just seen it. who's SDS ?? can anyone tell me how to find them ?? Tom Cloud All generalizations are false (there are NO absolutes) ------------------------------ From: Michael McBroom Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 08:57:35 -0700 Subject: Re: Fluorescent display Tom Cloud wrote: > > >You can find this type of display on farnell ( http://www.farnell.com ) . > > all I found at that URL was a bunch of nice flags for various countries Try clicking on one of them. - -- Best, Michael McBroom '87 745T 123k w/APC Visit the Volvo Performance Site: '88 765T 156k http://mcbrooms.com/volvo _________________________________________________________________________ Graduate Student, Linguistics Author of Research Interest: Biological Origins =McBroom's Camera Bluebook= of Language http://mcbrooms.com California State University, Fullerton _________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: James Weiler Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: 351W observations On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, Tom Cloud wrote: > who's SDS ?? can anyone tell me how to find them ?? > > Tom Cloud They are in Alberta (thats in Canada BTW). I've got their web page around here somewhere if your interested. jw ------------------------------ From: Todd King Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 10:04:00 PDT Subject: popping at wot Went to the 1/8th mi drags last night. Car ran quite well for its maiden voyage with the new equipment, although a few problems surfaced. Main problem is I still have trouble getting the car off the line, and the prob is exagerated by the new larger turbo. Some other people with similar setups do very well (1.5's or better in the 60') but so far the technique escapes me, plus the car is rich (safer) down low and throughout the pass which doesn't help. So it went a best of 96.6mph in the 1/8th last night BUT the "Jato assist" did not come on until at least 150' out (that's about 1/5th of the darn track!). Once on boost the car absolutely wails- hang on!. It went a 7.8x with a best (?) 60' of 2.1x (*hanging head in shame*). Just some rough estimation shows it would have gone 7.3 at around 98 (at least) had I been able to make a full pass on boost and get even a 1.7 60'. This is roughly a low 11 at 123mph or so in the 1/4 by my guesstimates, which is right about where it should be given a half decent 1.7 60' and a full pass under boost, which is set conservative for now due to lack of fuel pump capacity. For my car at 3650 lbs w/ driver the 10 sec 1/4 mi threshold is crossed when I reach 100mph in the 1/8th mi. But anyway my question to the list concerns the other problem seen. A fairly common snafu for these cars when they start going fast is "popping" at wot during a pass. Mine started this on the second pass last night. It's not like a "backfire"; more like just a misfire with maybe some pop back into the intake, though it's hard to tell; people just call it "popping". But it has been found that a "cure" is to disconnect the cam position sensor (CPS) after the engine is running, which puts the car into batch fire mode (from sequential). Sure enough this totally stopped the popping and I was able to continue on. Now the question is- why? So far nobody knows. There have been some vendor studies that concluded that the amount of fuel delivered between the two modes does not really change; this is supported by no change in O2 voltage between the two modes during a run either. Note that nothing shows up on the scantool data during the popping; things look normal. One of the fast guys claims that the CPS is bad when this occurs and replacing it will cure the problem but this is disputed. ANY thoughts on this are greatly appreciated; email me private if you don't want to use up list bandwidth. Todd todd_king@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 10:44:27 -0700 Subject: Re: Injectors resistance Garfield - Boy, I'm sad to hear about the LM1951, as I have designed it in to the EFI controller. How did you find out about the "life-time buy" for this part? Another series of parts that look good are a series from IR, that are basically protected logic level FETs. The one thing is that they will require the external zener, which costs PCB space. I really hate to ask, but does the lm1949 show up as "life-time buy" as well? Sandy At 02:17 AM 9/4/97 GMT, you wrote: >On Wed, 03 Sep 1997 18:01:42 -0700, Sandy wrote: > >>The moto part is hard to find, and somewhat expsive in low qty. If you are >>going to do saturated injectors, ie, the high impedance type (not 2 ohms) >>you can run the National LM1951 1Amp driver. > >Thanks for the suggestion, Sandy. I knew about the 1951s already, but >they are marked as "life-time buy", due to be obsolete by 3-98, AND I >wanted the higher integration level, anyways. > >I work for a large buyer of semi stuff (Cisco Systems), and we have Moto >sales creatures crawling all over us trying to give us stuff, so if THEY >have them, I can get some that way. Sheesh, what a guy's gotta do fer >parts, eh? > >Garfield > > ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 10:44:29 -0700 Subject: Re: Injectors resistance At 07:14 PM 9/3/97 -0800, you wrote: The moto part is hard to find, and somewhat expsive in low qty. If you are going to do saturated injectors, ie, the high impedance type (not 2 ohms) you can run the National LM1951 1Amp driver. It has the built in zener, and is short proof. I tried one and it seems to work great. They are a bit costly too in low qty, but you can get them from DIGIKEY. If you want to drive the low impedance injectors, then you can use one of the PCB and related components that are on the EFI332 ftp site, the file is SUBDRV.??? or something of that nature. Sandy Just a note- National semi is real good about free samples. They have 1949's now - at least they finally got me mine. The things do the 1/4 current back off for hold current - which I don't think the '51's do. Got a couple of rails of LM1949's. I love the part. I was the one that designed the Quad Ignition/Injection Boards that is on the FTP site. The nice thing about the LM1951 was that it is a low part count driver that works great for non-peak and hold injectors. Can't short it out, and no expensive zener needed. Seems it's day's are numbered... Sandy ------------------------------ From: clsnyde@xxx.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 17:57:43 GMT Subject: Re: Injectors resistance >On Wed, 03 Sep 1997 18:01:42 -0700, Sandy wrote: > >>The moto part is hard to find, and somewhat expsive in low qty. If you are >>going to do saturated injectors, ie, the high impedance type (not 2 ohms) >>you can run the National LM1951 1Amp driver. > >Thanks for the suggestion, Sandy. I knew about the 1951s already, but >they are marked as "life-time buy", due to be obsolete by 3-98, AND I >wanted the higher integration level, anyways. > >I work for a large buyer of semi stuff (Cisco Systems), and we have Moto >sales creatures crawling all over us trying to give us stuff, so if THEY >have them, I can get some that way. Sheesh, what a guy's gotta do fer >parts, eh? > >Garfield > > Got any routers fall off the back of the truck??? ------------------------------ From: Tom Cloud Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:44:06 -0500 Subject: Re: Fluorescent display >> >You can find this type of display on farnell ( http://www.farnell.com ) . >> >> all I found at that URL was a bunch of nice flags for various countries > >Try clicking on one of them. did that ...... Tom Cloud All generalizations are false (there are NO absolutes) ------------------------------ From: djp@xxx.edu (Dick Protus) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:31:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Electroluminescent Info Here are some companies/info I've been gathering for my own work. Planar Systems, Inc. www.planar.com They sell el displays. Their small el display (can directly replace lcd's) is around 250$, but is supposedly visible in sunlight. MetroMark 11574 Encore Circle Minnetonka, MN 55343-8862 (800) 680-5556 I talked to Bill Ward, (in Sales -ph 612-935-8844 -fax 612-935-5718) the tooling cost to get a custom design is expensive, in the ball park of 500$. Their brochure comes with cool samples though. Luminescent Systems, Inc. 77 Olean Road East Aurora, NY 14052 (716)655-0800 (716)655-0309 Haven't contacted anyone yet, they seem to have been around the longest and done just about everything with EL. No free samples with the brochure. :-( BKL Inc 421 Feheley Dr. King of Prussia,PA 19406 (610)277-2910 (610)277-2956 They make el lamps with the ic inverter integrated. Seems pretty promising, the blurb I have says "units cost under 1$ each in OEM quantities". I'm wondering how many an OEM quantity is. I haven't received the brochure yet, but I'll let everyone know what I find out and if there are free samples or not. Lumitex, Inc (not el, fiber optic but similiar ) 8443 Dow Circle Strongsville, OH 44136 (800)969-5483 (216)243-8401 (216)243-8402 Their brochure shows them doing the same things as the el, but with thin fiber optic mats. I just recieved the brochure this week and haven't contacted them yet. Brochure says tooling costs are not normally needed for prototypes, and that for 50$ you can get a evaluation kit with a Lumitex panel and light source. dick protus ------------------------------ From: garfield@xxx.com (Garfield) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 19:38:57 GMT Subject: Re: Injectors resistance On Thu, 04 Sep 1997 10:44:27 -0700, Sandy wrote: >Boy, I'm sad to hear about the LM1951, as I have designed it in to the = EFI >controller. How did you find out about the "life-time buy" for this = part? If you click on availability link on their web page www.national.com after typing in LM1951, it will show. There's also usually a "obsolete.txt" document showing on the list of docs if the part is "on it's way". >I really hate to ask, >but does the lm1949 show up as "life-time buy" as well? Oh, no way dude, thems in "full production" status, but now that I think of it, I believe the M package (SOP) is in "lifetime buy", but our favorite LM1949N (the MDIP package) is honkin on strong. Odd, huh?, that the through-hole part is sticking, and the surface mount is going bye-bye. Hmm, me thinks they're about to come out with a DIFF surface mount package, then, maybe. =46ear not, the farce is with us. Garfield ------------------------------ From: garfield@xxx.com (Garfield) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 19:42:37 GMT Subject: Re: Injectors resistance On Thu, 4 Sep 1997 17:57:43 GMT, clsnyde@xxx.net (Clare Snyder) wrote: >Got any routers fall off the back of the truck??? Hey Clare, you rascal. But ya know, stereotypes die hard. Cisco makes lots more than routers now. My division (Wide Area Network) makes these hughmungous ATM/Frame Relay switches you'd only see in the back-office of some big ISP, so Cisco is into the heavy iron also, bigtime. Garfield P.S. A couple turnips DID fall off the truck recently; you want them? 9) My boss is one of them, he he. ------------------------------ From: Tom Cloud Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:19:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Electroluminescent Info >Here are some companies/info I've been gathering for my own work. > >Planar Systems, Inc. > [ snip ] thanks, Tom Cloud All generalizations are false (there are NO absolutes) ------------------------------ From: Terry Martin Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 13:33:22 -0700 Subject: Re: electroluminescent displays (was Re: fluorescent displays Terry Martin wrote: > > Tom Cloud wrote: > > I want cockpit readouts... > insert... & who cuts the barber's hair? > > I have the entire dash cluster... > Terry > > I'd like to know if anyone has resolved x2+y2=z2 for x<>3, y<>4, z<>5. Ahem. It's a good thing nobody reads this stuff, particularly with me going on about the precision of math as the language of science and all. The above was to refer to "Fermat's Last Theorum". I was intelligently informed by someone with a fair bit of patience, not to mention knowlege, and discretion, that what I had posted was pretty much attributable to Pythagorus, and provided the proof. DUH, or Dooh!, whichever. Generally it was supposed to be this: x^n + y^n = z^n where n>2, and Fermat proposed that there were no non-zero integer values that would produce a solution to the equation. He did provide a proof for the exception of n=4. Nobody even asked about the barber's hair bit. :-) This has been a test of the stupidity broadcast channel. It is only a test. Terry ------------------------------ From: garfield@xxx.com (Garfield) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 21:25:38 GMT Subject: Re: Fluorescent display On Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:44:06 -0500, Tom Cloud wrote: >>> all I found at that URL was a bunch of nice flags for various = countries >> >>Try clicking on one of them. > >did that ...... Yeah, Tom, not of much use in the US. Why don't all these EXCELLENT Canuck and Oz companies come on over and blow these turkey US companies outta the ole billabong, sotaspeak. I'm disgusted with how much stuff these Aussie's and Canucks have; thinkin bout migratin, me is. Winters in Oz, summers in Canuck-landia. Sweet. Garfield P.S. Geez, Looeeze, I have to import stuff from Princess Auto in Canucklund, cause they have by far the BEST selection of hydraulic stuff. Kinda makes ya wonder, eh? Northern Hydraulics eat yer hart out. ------------------------------ From: John Napoli Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 17:32:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: injector bosses What about Marine Tex? Withstands engine heat, etc, etc. Buy it in any marine supply place. John On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, James Weiler wrote: > > > On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Seth wrote: > > > I deal with room temp cure epoxies pretty much all day ( lots of carbon > > fiber lamination and bonding) that stuff is the nasty aliphatic amine > > That's so cool. Carbon fibre is something I'd like to learn how to work > with. Are there any books/manuals that can get me started? Where do you > get your supplies from or is this at your place of work? > > > I might suggest a urethane adhesive, they often have higher sevice temps, > > gap fill better and adhere better than epoxies. They also can emit > > di-isocyanates, so you want to be a bit careful. But the stuff works > > where epoxy won't. > Does a charcoal filter mask remove isocyanates? I don't think it does, I > think you need a breathing aparatus (i.e. air line). Nasty stuff. I > kinda like the epoxy idea a bit better. > > > > > Personally, I weld if I can, but I am a welder at heart, and I like the > > look of a nice bead. > > Ditto, but I don't have the skills to weld aluminum or the capacity to keep > the intake from warping. But I could ship you a manifold and a bunch of > bosses. :) > > thanks for the advice > jw > ------------------------------ From: clsnyde@xxx.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:29:22 GMT Subject: Re: Injectors resistance >On Thu, 4 Sep 1997 17:57:43 GMT, clsnyde@xxx.net (Clare Snyder) wrote: > >>Got any routers fall off the back of the truck??? > >Hey Clare, you rascal. > >But ya know, stereotypes die hard. Cisco makes lots more than routers >now. My division (Wide Area Network) makes these hughmungous ATM/Frame >Relay switches you'd only see in the back-office of some big ISP, so >Cisco is into the heavy iron also, bigtime. > >Garfield > >P.S. A couple turnips DID fall off the truck recently; you want them? 9) >My boss is one of them, he he. > My last boss must have fell on his turnip too. I am well rid of him, decided if I was going to work for a $%^@ I'd work for one I liked!! ;} > ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 15:35:15 -0700 Subject: Re: Injectors resistance At 07:38 PM 9/4/97 GMT, you wrote: >On Thu, 04 Sep 1997 10:44:27 -0700, Sandy wrote: > >>Boy, I'm sad to hear about the LM1951, as I have designed it in to the EFI >>controller. How did you find out about the "life-time buy" for this part? > >If you click on availability link on their web page www.national.com >after typing in LM1951, it will show. There's also usually a >"obsolete.txt" document showing on the list of docs if the part is "on >it's way". Bummer, I like the 1951, but the LM1921 is a close replicant, less cost, even with the external clamp zener. No diags pin, but, that is not a big deal. I have been looking at IRF's 'Intelligent Drivers' the IRF6210, IRF6216, IRF6226, and the SMD IRFS3021 parts as a better replacement to both, but they also require an external clamp. One thing is nice, they are rated at 5, 10, 20, 3 amps. I am trying to get some samples on them to see how they work with saturated injectors. Not to forget real pricing...More to come! > >>I really hate to ask, >>but does the lm1949 show up as "life-time buy" as well? > >Oh, no way dude, thems in "full production" status, but now that I think >of it, I believe the M package (SOP) is in "lifetime buy", but our >favorite LM1949N (the MDIP package) is honkin on strong. Odd, huh?, that >the through-hole part is sticking, and the surface mount is going >bye-bye. Hmm, me thinks they're about to come out with a DIFF surface >mount package, then, maybe. Went up to the site today, much changed since the last time I was there getting some free samples! I saw the SMD version of the LM1949 was on the death list. The only reason that the Dip package is not there is because of all the parts the EFI332 list has purchased ;-) Did you look at the EFI332 web site and get the SUBDRV.??? files, I think the schematics and PCB stuff is there too. If you need, I have a very limited qty of the PCB that I designed, pretty reasonable too. Sandy ------------------------------ From: Jason Walters Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 15:43:12 -0700 Subject: Re: Water Injection > Who has used water injection ? Any do's don'ts or suggestions? > > My plan is with water injection I can crank the boost level up with > out detonation problems. I also have a few water injection questions. (I would like to use water injection in a non-efi application.) What type (brand, cost?) of injectors are available? Where might I buy one? Do you have to use distilled or filtered water, or will tap water do the trick (evil mineral deposits)? Is the water atomized, or just squirted into the combustion chamber in big, ugly drops? Lastly, (shot in the dark) what kind of specs are typical for such an injector? Firing frequency? Is the water expected to be pre-pressurized to 75 PSI, of a given temperature, or what? Any help would be great! Jason ------------------------------ From: clsnyde@xxx.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:47:44 GMT Subject: Re: Fluorescent display >On Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:44:06 -0500, Tom Cloud > wrote: > >>>> all I found at that URL was a bunch of nice flags for various countries >>> >>>Try clicking on one of them. >> >>did that ...... > >Yeah, Tom, not of much use in the US. > >Why don't all these EXCELLENT Canuck and Oz companies come on over and >blow these turkey US companies outta the ole billabong, sotaspeak. I'm >disgusted with how much stuff these Aussie's and Canucks have; thinkin >bout migratin, me is. Winters in Oz, summers in Canuck-landia. Sweet. > >Garfield > >P.S. Geez, Looeeze, I have to import stuff from Princess Auto in >Canucklund, cause they have by far the BEST selection of hydraulic >stuff. Kinda makes ya wonder, eh? Northern Hydraulics eat yer hart out. > No place I'd rather be - and I've been a few. Taxed almost into oblivion, a $.73 dollar, and a lot of stuff you just CAN't find, but not to much of it you really MUST have. With all the complaining we do, we really do have the best of both worlds! ------------------------------ From: Simon Quested Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 11:12:45 +1200 Subject: Dud injector ??......Help Hi All I got an old injector for testing my water injection circuit and I think it's dead. Am I right in thinking that if I pulse 12V to the injector terminals it should operate? The power supply can supply 5 amps so I don't think it's a lack of current. The PSU was set to 12V but when I pulsed the injector it would drop to 10v, the current was reading 4 amps The resistance across the injector is 2.4 ohms it was setup...... positive on PSU - button switch - injector - negative on PSU. I swapped the polarity on the injector (incase It was try to close instead of open). TIA Simon +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Simon Quested (E-mail questeds@xxx.nz) Computer Technician, Silicon Graphics & Windows NT Support Centre for Computing and Biometrics LINCOLN UNIVERSITY OF NEW ZEALAND Phone (64)(03) 3252811 Ext. 8087 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ http://www.lincoln.ac.nz/ccb/techs/simon/default.htm +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ When the chips are down, the cow is empty. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ From: "Robert E. Yorke" Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:27:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Water Injection Jason: Give me 'till tomorrow; I'll provide you with the phone number etc, of SpearCo Performance Products out here in California. They sell a water injection setup (I've got one on my turbo'd '88GT Fiero Auto) that goes for ~$160 and it does a very nice job... Has provision for setting the onset of water injection as a function of boost (Manifold) pressure. At 03:43 PM 9/4/97 -0700, you wrote: >> Who has used water injection ? Any do's don'ts or suggestions? >> >> My plan is with water injection I can crank the boost level up with >> out detonation problems. > >I also have a few water injection questions. (I would like to use water injection >in a non-efi application.) > >What type (brand, cost?) of injectors are available? Where might I buy one? >Do you have to use distilled or filtered water, or will tap water do the trick >(evil mineral deposits)? >Is the water atomized, or just squirted into the combustion chamber in big, ugly >drops? > >Lastly, (shot in the dark) what kind of specs are typical for such an injector? >Firing frequency? Is the water expected to be pre-pressurized to 75 PSI, of a >given temperature, or what? > >Any help would be great! > >Jason > > > > > Riverside, CA 2 '88 GTs! ------------------------------ From: Simon Quested Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 12:09:32 +1200 Subject: Re: Water Injection Hi Jason & All > What type (brand, cost?) of injectors are available? I'm using (well trying to) a fuel injector, But I think the one I have is dead =-( > Where might I buy one? > Do you have to use distilled or filtered water, or will tap water do the trick > (evil mineral deposits)? Tap water for me unless anyone has a good reason not to. > Is the water atomized, or just squirted into the combustion chamber in big, ugly > drops? Atomized is the plan. > Lastly, (shot in the dark) what kind of specs are typical for such an injector? > Firing frequency? I've seen a simple set up that uses a boost activated switch to turn on an injector (not pulsed just ON) > Is the water expected to be pre-pressurized to 75 PSI, of a > given temperature, or what? I think it only needs to be higher than the manifold pressure plus a bit more to get the liquid atomizing from the injector. I guess that the colder the water the better as it will have an intercooler effect as the water mists, however I doubt it will be cold enough to make much of a difference ? Cheers Simon +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Simon Quested (E-mail questeds@xxx.nz) Computer Technician, Silicon Graphics & Windows NT Support Centre for Computing and Biometrics LINCOLN UNIVERSITY OF NEW ZEALAND Phone (64)(03) 3252811 Ext. 8087 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ http://www.lincoln.ac.nz/ccb/techs/simon/default.htm +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ When the chips are down, the cow is empty. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 17:18:11 -0700 Subject: Re: Dud injector ??......Help The 2.4ohm injector are Peak and hold type, they are to be driven with 12 volts until the 4 amp current is reached, when that happens the driver is supposed to reduce the voltage until the current is at 1 amp. You should not use a low impedace injector (2.4ohm) unless you have the correct driver. Get a 12ohm injector, they are the most common, and will only draw about 1 amp. They require no special drivers. Sandy At 11:12 AM 9/5/97 +1200, you wrote: >Hi All > >I got an old injector for testing my water injection circuit and I >think it's dead. >Am I right in thinking that if I pulse 12V to the injector terminals >it should operate? > >The power supply can supply 5 amps so I don't think it's a lack of >current. > >The PSU was set to 12V but when I pulsed the injector it would drop >to 10v, the current was reading 4 amps > >The resistance across the injector is 2.4 ohms > >it was setup...... positive on PSU - button switch - injector - >negative on PSU. >I swapped the polarity on the injector (incase It was try to close >instead of open). > >TIA > >Simon >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Simon Quested (E-mail questeds@xxx.nz) > Computer Technician, Silicon Graphics & Windows NT Support > Centre for Computing and Biometrics > LINCOLN UNIVERSITY OF NEW ZEALAND > Phone (64)(03) 3252811 Ext. 8087 >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >http://www.lincoln.ac.nz/ccb/techs/simon/default.htm >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >When the chips are down, the cow is empty. >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > ------------------------------ From: Robert Yorke Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 18:13:03 +0100 Subject: Re: Water Injection List: Please accept my apologies for not specifically directing my reponse to a request for help regarding availability of a water injection setup for a turbo'd car; as long as I did it that way, I may as well follow up on my own post to provide what may be quite worthwhile to all: Spearco Performance Products, Inc. 14664 Titus Street Panorama City, CA 91402 (818)901-7851 Their "Turbo Water Injection System" is their catalog part # 980, for $160.00 (As of 9-6-96) and includes: -4 gallon aluminum reservoir with a choice of 3 mounting positions -Injection of water (Or water/ethanol/methanol) upstream or downstream of the turbo -pump control by adjustable pressure switch -includes 3 different sized, specially designed injector nozzles (A function of engine displacement) I hope this is of interest to all! At 04:27 PM 9/4/1997 -0700, you wrote: >Jason: > >Give me 'till tomorrow; I'll provide you with the phone number etc, of >SpearCo Performance Products out here in California. They sell a water >injection setup (I've got one on my turbo'd '88GT Fiero Auto) that goes for >~$160 and it does a very nice job... >Has provision for setting the onset of water injection as a function of >boost (Manifold) pressure. > > >At 03:43 PM 9/4/97 -0700, you wrote: >>> Who has used water injection ? Any do's don'ts or suggestions? >>> >>> My plan is with water injection I can crank the boost level up with >>> out detonation problems. >> >>I also have a few water injection questions. (I would like to use water >injection >>in a non-efi application.) >> >>What type (brand, cost?) of injectors are available? Where might I buy one? >>Do you have to use distilled or filtered water, or will tap water do the >trick >>(evil mineral deposits)? >>Is the water atomized, or just squirted into the combustion chamber in >big, ugly >>drops? >> >>Lastly, (shot in the dark) what kind of specs are typical for such an >injector? >>Firing frequency? Is the water expected to be pre-pressurized to 75 PSI, >of a >>given temperature, or what? >> >>Any help would be great! >> >>Jason >> >> >> >> >> >Riverside, CA >2 '88 GTs! > > ------------------------------ From: DemonTSi@xxx.com Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 21:38:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: electroluminescent displays (was Re: fluorescent displays Well...I don't know much about the differences between different lighting systems here...but I have always wondered if someone could make an analog gauge with indiglo faces. So in the daytime the gauge would look like your typical white-faced (or possibly other colors as I have seen indiglo watches with black and yellow faces) analog gauge, but at night the whole circular gauge will be glowing blue. I don't think that the technology is that expensive as I have seen some of those indiglo timexes go for like under 25 bucks....and the glow looks great in the dark! Maybe someone can start up a company offering some indiglo-ish gauges...or refer the idea to autometer or such. I'm sure there would be a market out there if for any reason, just because the gauges would look super cool at night! :) Actually, I think a japanese manufacturer (I think it was K's) offers indiglo gauges... but that's only in japan. Van ------------------------------ From: garfield@xxx.com (Garfield) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 01:37:54 GMT Subject: Re: Injectors resistance On Thu, 04 Sep 1997 15:35:15 -0700, Sandy wrote: >Did you look at the EFI332 web site and get the SUBDRV.??? files, I = think >the schematics and PCB stuff is there too. If you need, I have a very >limited qty of the PCB that I designed, pretty reasonable too. Yup, thanks for the lookout; I'm plugged into the EFI332 stuff. I've got some other things impinging upon direct use of ALL the EFI332 stuff, but I've been sucking up just about all the stuff yous guys have been doing. Great stuff, BTW; I've learned a tremendous amount from the project, and the way EFI332 has handled all these group buys is just outstanding (thanks, Johnny and ALL the others involved), as well as the designers, Sandy and the others. Nice job. Garfield ------------------------------ From: garfield@xxx.com (Garfield) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 01:50:47 GMT Subject: Re: Dud injector ??......Help On Fri, 05 Sep 1997 11:12:45 +1200, Simon Quested wrote: >The PSU was set to 12V but when I pulsed the injector it would drop=20 >to 10v, the current was reading 4 amps > >The resistance across the injector is 2.4 ohms=20 "Oh oh", as the guy on the baked beans commercial would say. You're on ta something dude. You've just confirmed Ohms law! No, seriously, it all matches up, the drop across 2.4 ohms with 4A flowing SHOULD be 9.6V (close enough to 10V for jazz). So, IF the injector didn't open, sounds like you got a stuck puppie; but take heart, the solenoid winding is still intact, so mebe you could free the injector pintle if you tried some ultrasound and a good cleaning solution, or whatever the injector ER guys do when they go into cardiac arrest. Garfield ------------------------------ From: Simon Quested Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 14:28:39 +1200 Subject: OLE BUHL RACING APS Hi All Here's a site that sell efi units that seem to do everything except get the paper and wash the car ;-) OLE BUHL RACING APS SPECIALIST IN RACING ENGINE MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS http://www.obr.dk/default.htm Has anyone had anything to do with them? Cheers Simon +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Simon Quested (E-mail questeds@xxx.nz) Computer Technician, Silicon Graphics & Windows NT Support Centre for Computing and Biometrics LINCOLN UNIVERSITY OF NEW ZEALAND Phone (64)(03) 3252811 Ext. 8087 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ http://www.lincoln.ac.nz/ccb/techs/simon/default.htm +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ When the chips are down, the cow is empty. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #306 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".