DIY_EFI Digest Sunday, 14 September 1997 Volume 02 : Number 318 In this issue: Re: carb vs. efi Re: carb vs. efi fuel flow sensing Re: All the non-DYI-EFI crap I've put up here Re: L-jet over rich Holley ECM replacement Re: All the non-DYI-EFI crap I've put up here Re: Habanero Re: fuel flow sensing Re: fuel flow sensing Re: All the non-DYI-EFI crap I've put up here Re: fuel flow sensing Re: Holley ECM replacement Re: carb vs. efi Re: fuel flow sensing Re: All the non-DYI-EFI crap I've put up here ? for you guys $$$$$$ Re: carb vs. efi Re: fuel flow sensing Re: All the non-DYI-EFI crap I've put up here RE:RE:Holley ECM replacement Re: All the non-DYI-EFI crap I've put up here Re: fuel flow sensing See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Johnny Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 02:32:01 -0700 Subject: Re: carb vs. efi Robert Harris wrote: > ... > Just my usual obnoxious 2 bucks worth of bull. > > "When some one gets something for nothing - > some one else gets nothing for something " > > If the first ingredient ain't Habanero, then the rest don't matter. What's Habanero? - -j- ------------------------------ From: "Robert Harris" Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:29:52 -0700 Subject: Re: carb vs. efi > What's Habanero? > > -j- Why its just a smoky tasting, mild mannered member of the chili family with just a tad of heat and modest twang that has recently gained a dedicated following among certain depraved gringos with jaded palates seeking relief from the ordinary. On the Scoville Heat Scale, which rates the relative heat of peppers it rates a modest 200,000 when green, about 300,000 when orange and twangy, and when an angry red between 350,000 and 400,000 - which coincidentally defines the upper end of the scale. Jalepenos run between 3000 and 7000 on the same scale. It is however recommended that you chill your toilet paper in the freezer for at least 24 hours before consuming Bon Appetite "When some one gets something for nothing - some one else gets nothing for something " If the first ingredient ain't Habanero, then the rest don't matter. Robert Harris - ---------- > From: Johnny > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: carb vs. efi > Date: Saturday, September 13, 1997 2:32 AM > > Robert Harris wrote: > > > ... > > Just my usual obnoxious 2 bucks worth of bull. > > > > "When some one gets something for nothing - > > some one else gets nothing for something " > > > > If the first ingredient ain't Habanero, then the rest don't matter. > ------------------------------ From: Jason Lewis Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 00:14:12 +1000 (EST) Subject: fuel flow sensing Hi, I have a question thats not really on topic. I'm building a trip computer for my car, and i'm after some sort of fuel flow sensor so i can measure how much fuel im using (btw, my car still carburetor) The only flow meters i have seen were really expensive, i was wondering if anyone knows where can get one quite cheaply. (preferably in Australia) thanks in advance Jason ------------------------------ From: "Joe Chiasson" Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:41:32 -0500 Subject: Re: All the non-DYI-EFI crap I've put up here Robert just being curious: Multipoint gasoline with carbureted vapourous propane? Multipoint gasoline with port vapourous propane? Multipoint gasoline with multipoint vapourous propane? Multipoint gasoline with multipoint liquid propane? Port gasoline with multipoint liquid propane? Port gasoline with multipoint vapourous propane? Port gasoline with port vapourous propane? Carbureted gasoline with multipoint liquid propane? Carbureted gasoline with multipoint vapourous propane? Carbureted gasoline with port vapourous propane? Carbureted gasoline with carbureted propane ------ doubt it but..... Are you going to use one computer to control the gasoline ( I guess I am just assuming that your other fuel is going to be gasoline, is it perhaps diesel?) then piggy back with a controller for propane. Then flip of a switch and your on the other fuel? Are you setting this up to be able to switch fuels on the fly. In a system like this would it be better to shut the fuel supply off (when switching) back at the tank or nearest the fuel induction components? (i.e. can your computer system handle the mixing of the two fuels for however short or long it lasts, I know there really shouldn't be a problem there are dual-fueled systems that work quite well.) Just one more question or statement as it may be : If the first ingredient is Habanero then you ain't got hemorrhoids! J. > From: Robert Harris > Terry, since I am working on a Bi-fuel (not dual fuel) system, > using propane as one of the fuels, and I firmly believe in > better racing thru chemistry and cheating - let me know if you > find one. Meanwhile, I'll lurk here and pick up bits and pieces > as I can. Been able to mine a lot of information - Just need > one piece of un-obtanium to complete the basics. > > "When some one gets something for nothing - > some one else gets nothing for something " > > If the first ingredient ain't Habanero, then the rest don't matter. > Robert Harris ------------------------------ From: clsnyde@xxx.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 15:00:51 GMT Subject: Re: L-jet over rich >Hello all, > >I am trying to get a 74 914 with L-jet thru emissions. And we are >running rich, really rich. I have checked out every component of the >system, they are all fine. But I have playied with the air flow meter. >I notice if I hold back the plate physically I am running in the right >ball park. Is there a way of adjusting the flapper so more resitacance >from the spring is provided? I have not hooked up the CO2 meter yet, >don't need to as much black smoke that pours out the tail pipe. It is a >visual thing. Please help me with this one. > remove the plastic cover (carefully) from the airflow meter and crank up the tension on the spring. Sounds like someonewas playing, trying to get more power, and went too far. A very small decrease in tension over stock gives a siseable increase in performance - any more gives trouble. >Once past the test, this car wil be exempt then I will be build a new >intake system and using a PEFI of homebrew. > >Also I am looking for information on someone building a direct ignition >system. I have seen the stuff on the DTI-EFI web site, but I am looking >more for a premade kit. > >Take care, >Stephen Jacobs >SJacobs914@xxx.com > > ------------------------------ From: Joe Boucher Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:03:55 -0500 Subject: Holley ECM replacement At 03:32 PM 9/12/97 EDT, you wrote: >My Holley Pro-jection died for the third time a couple of months ago. I >am not going to purchase a fourth computer. [snip] >I am hoping to find a replacement ECU for my Holley throttle body that >does not cost an arm or leg. These lists help me a lot to get ideas. > Who knows, maybe I will decide to use the EEC-IV and intake; however, it >is doubtful because I do not have a lot of hood clearance in my car (a >427 Cobra S/C replica using a 351W punched out to 408). > >That is my $.02 worth. From now on I will just keep "listening". > My incomplete memory remembers a reference in a Peterson Publishing car mag about a company that makes a harness to adapt the Holley throttle body to the GM ECM. But then you run into the limitation of the cam duration the stock ECM will run, even with a custom eprom. How wild a cam are you running? Joe Boucher '81 TBI Suburban '70 RS/SS Camaro Bedford, Tx ------------------------------ From: "Robert Harris" Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:34:12 -0700 Subject: Re: All the non-DYI-EFI crap I've put up here What I would like to do and am working out is correctly called a Bi-Fuel system (i.e. using two fuels at the same time) rather than a Dual Fuel (using either or system). Fuel A Timed port injection Vapor Propane. A poster ran Methane on a 75 lb per hour Alcohol Injector at 80 psi and got 19 lbs per hour. Another mentioned Big Block Chevy Injectors run 75 lbs per hour and handle reasonable pressure. Using a dry vapor regulator off the top of the tank (still looking - any clues) will plumb the regulated vapor to the injectors. Looking for 15 to 20 lbs per hour. Getting info on any number of TPI EFI systems that can be used. Start, run, idle, low - mid range on Propane Vapor. Fuel A prime. Liquid Propane. Think NOS spray bar or direct port. Will run line from bottom (liquid) line unregulated to NOS type Gas Solenoid at spray bar. Sense RPM, throttle position and PW of injector (and other depending on final EFI selection) to determine turnon. Measure Tank Pressure and apply curve for volume thru orifice correction. Grossly adjust EFI - finely regulate thru Oxygen. EFI selected must run closed loop at WOT as with propane, richening past stoich RAISES temp's to meltdown range - not runs cooler. Got to error on lean side. Each spray bar step will be power of two flowed so step two flows twice of step one and strep three flows twice of step two. This gives me 8 points with the step approximately equal between the points. May only wind up with 2 as this covers a wide range with reasonable cost. What I get at this point is an off the shelf injection system that is tweakable by a Chris Johnson or other chip or programming package to be just happy fine on Propane. All the controllability of TPI with SIMPLE CIS for taking advantage of the high latent heat of evaporation. Fuel B will be unleaded pump gas to use as a cheap extender fuel. Gasoline is cheaper than propane in most parts of the country and as this system is going on an RV, would like to take advantage of it. Also, if you can avoid start, idle, and very light load, you avoid most of the problems. Plan is after warm-up, and under cruise load, to switch the vapor injectors out and use gasoline thru small injectors located near the port. This will be an either/or situation - not both. Sizing the propane and gasoline injectors flow similarly and using the gasoline primarily to trim or light moderate load portion. May delay liquid propane steps till later in the pulse width to allow more gasoline. A hidden side benefit of gasoline this way is to extend engine life even further. The major wear point on a LPG/CNG engine is the uncooled and unlubricated exhaust valve. Gasoline contains lubricants for the exhaust valve and adding Instead of Lead would really eliminate the wear. Could probably get away with not using unobtainium exotic valves and seats. I can now have a high torque, hi compression (efficiency goes up startlingly with compressions over 9 to 1), very clean burning, very long life engine that can pull heavy loads without detonating. Gasoline has 20 percent more energy per gallon (but less per pound) than Propane and using it in a propane optimized engine gives even greater economy. Since the fuel switches to higher octane, much colder liquid propane under load, I can forget about gasoline detonation limits on a high compression engine. Also note that gasoline is a major player only under light moderate cruise loads where the extra propane advance and higher compression really kick in. If I experience light ping, can run a solenoid valve from the regulated vapor to a central intake point. Set the hole size to supply most of the fuel for idle. Now will have a 112 octane "trickle" that should kill the light ping dead like DI. Fuel selection is Propane, or Both. Limp home on gasoline risks the China Syndrome or interstellar beginnings on a high compression big block. As cost IS an object and Keep It Simple Stupid rules apply - I think I'm nearing the point when I can get it done. Please note - if both injectors flow the same amount of fuel in Pounds per hour, the EFI should be well within trim range for either fuel. Also, by limiting the range of control for the timed injectors, I keep the cost way down without sacrificing any performance or economy. Also looking for moderate priced wide range O2 sensor as propane Likes to run lean - up to about 18 to one and runs COOLER leaner. Thiminking about how to do this. Usual disclaimer - just my normal wild ass guessing and dreaming "When some one gets something for nothing - some one else gets nothing for something " If the first ingredient ain't Habanero, then the rest don't matter. Robert Harris - ---------- > From: Joe Chiasson > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: All the non-DYI-EFI crap I've put up here > Date: Saturday, September 13, 1997 7:41 AM > > Robert just being curious: > > Multipoint gasoline with carbureted vapourous propane? > Multipoint gasoline with port vapourous propane? > Multipoint gasoline with multipoint vapourous propane? > Multipoint gasoline with multipoint liquid propane? > Port gasoline with multipoint liquid propane? > Port gasoline with multipoint vapourous propane? > Port gasoline with port vapourous propane? > Carbureted gasoline with multipoint liquid propane? > Carbureted gasoline with multipoint vapourous propane? > Carbureted gasoline with port vapourous propane? > Carbureted gasoline with carbureted propane ------ doubt it but..... > > Are you going to use one computer to control the gasoline ( I guess I am > just assuming that your other fuel is going to be gasoline, is it perhaps > diesel?) then piggy back with a controller for propane. Then flip of a > switch and your on the other fuel? Are you setting this up to be able to > switch fuels on the fly. In a system like this would it be better to shut > the fuel supply off (when switching) back at the tank or nearest the fuel > induction components? (i.e. can your computer system handle the mixing of > the two fuels for however short or long it lasts, I know there really > shouldn't be a problem there are dual-fueled systems that work quite well.) > > Just one more question or statement as it may be : If the first ingredient > is Habanero then you ain't got hemorrhoids! > > J. > > > From: Robert Harris > > Terry, since I am working on a Bi-fuel (not dual fuel) system, > > using propane as one of the fuels, and I firmly believe in > > better racing thru chemistry and cheating - let me know if you > > find one. Meanwhile, I'll lurk here and pick up bits and pieces > > as I can. Been able to mine a lot of information - Just need > > one piece of un-obtanium to complete the basics. > > > > "When some one gets something for nothing - > > some one else gets nothing for something " > > > > If the first ingredient ain't Habanero, then the rest don't matter. > > Robert Harris > ------------------------------ From: Land Shark Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 15:25:18 -0600 Subject: Re: Habanero At 02:32 AM 9/13/97 -0700, you wrote: >What's Habanero? Best damn chile' pepper on the planet Hottest, too!... It tastes a bit like an apricot, right before the wall of flame gets you... I personally LOVE them.. but like diy-efi they are not for everyone... *grin* Jim ------------------------------ From: Justin Albury Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:29:48 +1000 Subject: Re: fuel flow sensing Jason Lewis wrote: > > Hi, > > I have a question thats not really on topic. > > I'm building a trip computer for my car, and i'm after some sort of fuel > flow sensor so i can measure how much fuel im using (btw, my car still > carburetor) > > The only flow meters i have seen were really expensive, i was wondering > if anyone knows where can get one quite cheaply. (preferably in Australia) > > thanks in advance > > Jason jason have you seen the setup on vk & vl 5.0 non efi commodores??? the fuel flow sensor screws in infront of the carbie......still very $$$$$ new but you should find a wecked calis with one on it ..... justin ------------------------------ From: bwmsbldr@xxx.com (Bill Williams) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 16:12:35 -0600 Subject: Re: fuel flow sensing How accurate does this meter have to be and under what pressure does it have to work? There are some fuel flow meters that might meet your needs if other conditions are met. - --- Bill in Boulder "Engineering as an Art Form" --- ------------------------------ From: bwmsbldr@xxx.com (Bill Williams) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 16:10:12 -0600 Subject: Re: All the non-DYI-EFI crap I've put up here Congratulations on your project. While a bi-fuel engine setup is not unknown and was tried as far back as 1910 still you are breaking new ground in your effort. additionally you have a good economic basis for your system. All to often you end up with a solution in search of a problem. All the pieces you seek are available on an over the counter basis have a good chance of developing a commercially marketable system in the R/V field. Please keep us posted as to your success. - --- Bill in Boulder "Engineering as an Art Form" --- ------------------------------ From: James Weiler Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 15:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: fuel flow sensing On Sun, 14 Sep 1997, Jason Lewis wrote: > The only flow meters i have seen were really expensive, i was wondering > if anyone knows where can get one quite cheaply. (preferably in Australia) > Jason What factory cars in Auz have a trip computer? Lexus, MB? Try and get one from a wrecker. jw ------------------------------ From: swagaero Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:08:02 -0700 Subject: Re: Holley ECM replacement Joe Boucher wrote: > > At 03:32 PM 9/12/97 EDT, you wrote: > >My Holley Pro-jection died for the third time a couple of months ago. I > >am not going to purchase a fourth computer. > > [snip] > > >I am hoping to find a replacement ECU for my Holley throttle body that > >does not cost an arm or leg. These lists help me a lot to get ideas. > > Who knows, maybe I will decide to use the EEC-IV and intake; however, it > >is doubtful because I do not have a lot of hood clearance in my car (a > >427 Cobra S/C replica using a 351W punched out to 408). > > > >That is my $.02 worth. From now on I will just keep "listening". > > > > My incomplete memory remembers a reference in a Peterson Publishing car > mag about a company that makes a harness to adapt the Holley throttle > body to the GM ECM. But then you run into the limitation of the cam > duration the stock ECM will run, even with a custom eprom. > > How wild a cam are you running? > > Joe Boucher > '81 TBI Suburban '70 RS/SS Camaro > Bedford, Tx If you are a running GM map system I have a circuit that comps for almost any cam combo. Steve - -- ----|------||------|---- --|------[]------|-- 0/ \0 www.flash.net/~swagaero ------------------------------ From: sjacobs914@xxx.com Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 20:11:47 EDT Subject: Re: carb vs. efi It is also a good idea to keep a tall glass of milk around. Nothing cools the pallet better. Also do not get one of these in your eye, BTD it, no pleasant, and oh course you flush with water and all the sudden you think your head is going to explode. Take care, Stephen Jacobs SJacobs914@xxx.com On Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:29:52 -0700 "Robert Harris" writes: >> What's Habanero? >> >> -j- >Why its just a smoky tasting, mild mannered member of the chili family >with >just a tad of heat and modest twang that has recently gained a >dedicated >following among certain depraved gringos with jaded palates seeking >relief from >the ordinary. On the Scoville Heat Scale, which rates the relative >heat of >peppers it rates a modest 200,000 when green, about 300,000 when >orange and >twangy, and when an angry red between 350,000 and 400,000 - which >coincidentally defines the upper end of the scale. Jalepenos run >between 3000 >and 7000 on the same scale. > >It is however recommended that you chill your toilet paper in the >freezer for >at least 24 hours before consuming > >Bon Appetite > >"When some one gets something for nothing - > some one else gets nothing for something " > >If the first ingredient ain't Habanero, then the rest don't matter. >Robert Harris > > >---------- >> From: Johnny >> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >> Subject: Re: carb vs. efi >> Date: Saturday, September 13, 1997 2:32 AM >> >> Robert Harris wrote: >> >> > ... >> > Just my usual obnoxious 2 bucks worth of bull. >> > >> > "When some one gets something for nothing - >> > some one else gets nothing for something " >> > >> > If the first ingredient ain't Habanero, then the rest don't >matter. >> > > ------------------------------ From: clsnyde@xxx.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 00:24:27 GMT Subject: Re: fuel flow sensing >Hi, > >I have a question thats not really on topic. > >I'm building a trip computer for my car, and i'm after some sort of fuel >flow sensor so i can measure how much fuel im using (btw, my car still >carburetor) > >The only flow meters i have seen were really expensive, i was wondering >if anyone knows where can get one quite cheaply. (preferably in Australia) > >thanks in advance > >Jason > > Don't know where you can get one right now, particularly in OZ, but a simple flow meter has a ball that runs around in a circular passage,chased by the fuel. There is a light on one side and a photocell on the other that is interupted by the ball. The computer counts the passes of the ball to measure fuel flow. I think I still have one floating around up here in Ontario Canada. ------------------------------ From: clsnyde@xxx.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 00:36:43 GMT Subject: Re: All the non-DYI-EFI crap I've put up here >What I would like to do and am working out is correctly called a Bi-Fuel system >(i.e. using two fuels at the same time) rather than a Dual Fuel (using either >or system). > >Fuel A Timed port injection Vapor Propane. A poster ran Methane on a 75 lb >per hour Alcohol Injector at 80 psi and got 19 lbs per hour. Another mentioned >Big Block Chevy Injectors run 75 lbs per hour and handle reasonable pressure. >Using a dry vapor regulator off the top of the tank (still looking - any clues) >will plumb the regulated vapor to the injectors. Looking for 15 to 20 lbs per >hour. Getting info on any number of TPI EFI systems that can be used. Start, >run, idle, low - mid range on Propane Vapor. > >Fuel A prime. Liquid Propane. Think NOS spray bar or direct port. Will run >line from bottom (liquid) line unregulated to NOS type Gas Solenoid at spray >bar. Sense RPM, throttle position and PW of injector (and other depending on >final EFI selection) to determine turnon. Measure Tank Pressure and apply >curve for volume thru orifice correction. Grossly adjust EFI - finely regulate >thru Oxygen. >EFI selected must run closed loop at WOT as with propane, richening past stoich >RAISES temp's to meltdown range - not runs cooler. Got to error on lean side. >Each spray bar step will be power of two flowed so step two flows twice of step >one and strep three flows twice of step two. This gives me 8 points with the >step >approximately equal between the points. May only wind up with 2 as this covers >a wide range with reasonable cost. > >What I get at this point is an off the shelf injection system that is tweakable >by a Chris Johnson or other chip or programming package to be just happy fine >on Propane. All the controllability of TPI with SIMPLE CIS for taking >advantage of the high latent heat of evaporation. > >Fuel B will be unleaded pump gas to use as a cheap extender fuel. Gasoline is >cheaper than propane in most parts of the country And what country are you in?????? Here in Ontario Canada, propane is something about .27 per litre, and 87 octane unleaded is currently just a tad under .60, was .65 a week ago. ------------------------------ From: "Dave Stinar" Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 19:49:29 -0500 Subject: ? for you guys Ok, here it goes, Ive been on the list for way to long. I just havent had the time really consider doing a project, but a few things have come up in which I problaby could shave off a lot of junkyard time and money. My wifes cavaler just blew a rod and the car is not worth fixing (thats why we now have a 1997 geo metro) and my lebaron is problaby not far behind. the computers and the electrics are all in good order its just the engines/bodys that are shot. Now just a couple of months ago my rx7 had the thermostat froze closed and the needel on the temp peged itself at the top, now the rear rotor is gone (I think) no mater what I need to take the engine out and disasemble it. What my thought was could I in any way that does not require me to go and do to much reprograming on eather of thoses systems from the cavaler or lebaron alow me to retrofit them to my rx-7's wankel engine. I have considered getting a efi system from a junked rx-7 but the only rx-7 around here are the old 78-85 models, non have efi units on them. The cavaler has a tbi system and the lebaron has a multi port fi system. I can see good and bad in using both systems. cavaler= 4cyl-tbi-2.0L lebaron=4cyl-mpfi-2.2L rx-7=2 rotor/6cyl-carb-1.1L Any advice I can get would be great, thanx in advance. dave s '70 vw bug '76 cj5 jeep '78 handa 550-4 '82 rx7 gsl (my baby) '85 chevy cavaler '85 lebaron turbo 97 geo metro ------------------------------ From: A70Duster@xxx.com Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:43:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: $$$$$$ Re: carb vs. efi On my '70 Duster, quater miler - I picked up a open plenum intake and 750 Holley for about $100. A $20 rebuilt kit and I had a working induction system. I'm all for EFI, but it does cost bucks! Efi controller - $500 - $1500 Efi system - $1000 - $2000 (were talking big block here, so no factory stuff) Laptop for programing controller $500 - $1000. So worst case, I'm out ~$5000, which is what the whole car ran me (11.5 @ 114) here at 5800 feet in Colorado. See ya, Mike ------------------------------ From: garfield@xxx.com (Garfield) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 02:57:16 GMT Subject: Re: fuel flow sensing On Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:29:48 +1000, Justin Albury wrote: >have you seen the setup on vk & vl 5.0 non efi commodores??? the fuel >flow sensor screws in infront of the carbie......still very $$$$$ new >but you should find a wecked calis with one on it ..... Eh, speak up man, that mumbling's entirely too faint for those dying to get some true but inexpensive flow measuring scheme going...so, could you say in more detail and slowly for the older folks, just what this "vk & vl non efi commodores" is?? Please. Garfield ------------------------------ From: "Joe Chiasson" Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:25:01 -0500 Subject: Re: All the non-DYI-EFI crap I've put up here Robert Harris wrote: > >Fuel B will be unleaded pump gas to use as a cheap extender fuel. Gasoline is > >cheaper than propane in most parts of the country The Clare Snyder replied: > And what country are you in?????? > Here in Ontario Canada, propane is something about .27 per litre, and 87 > octane unleaded is currently just a tad under .60, was .65 a week ago. I believe he is from the US of A. Lived in Ontario, Canada for most of my life. Have driven propane vehicles in Ontario, Canada. Although there are more propane vehicles in the US than Can, there are more propane vehciles per capita in canada. Also in the US most dedicated propane vehicles are run by fleet operations with their own refueling station. Lots of fleets in Can but lots of average joe's running dedicated propane. Thus the fueling infrastructure must cater to these people. Plus the government regulates propane as they do gasoline yet do not tax propane to the extent gasoline is taxed. Now live in US, have driven propane vehicles North to South and almost East to West. For the most part the fuel is unregulated (cost) and in some states carries a heavy motor fuel tax (put it in a bottle, or motor home and it will be 50 cents a gallon cheaper than putting it in your car). I have paid every where from $0.85 per gallon to $2.75 per gallon. Thus on average propane is more expensive in the US then CAN. Trying to find motor fuel propane in the US is a nightmarer compared to CAN where it is on almost every street corner. When more propane vehicles hit the road the guy charging $2.75 per gallon is going to have to drop his price around the same ball park the guy selling for $0.85 is. J. ------------------------------ From: Jennifer Rose Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 19:50:02 -0700 Subject: RE:RE:Holley ECM replacement Hey Steve Would you share circuit with us. Will being doing tpi project on an older vette this winter Thanks Vance ------------------------------ From: "Joe Chiasson" Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 22:35:29 -0500 Subject: Re: All the non-DYI-EFI crap I've put up here Bi-fuel dual fuel, I'm always getting those mixed up, don't think I will ever get it right. Anyway thanyou for your reply, it sounds like a very interesting system, I really hope it works. I have been considering more of a dual fuel system myself (gasoline and propane with propane being the primary and gasoline being a back-up, main reason some places its hard to find establishments which are licensed to fill motor vehicles.) Your bi-fuel system, as I said, seems really interesting, perhaps out of my ball park (not a wiz with controllers yet), but reading about your system may push me to go ahead and work on a dual fuel system. However, I hope that you do not mind some commentary. Withdrawing vapour off the top of the tank could hinder your system in two possible ways. One location of the tank is usually in a cool area when compared to the engine compartment. If you end up having to drive off the vapour injectors for any extended period liquid propane will have to keep vapourizing to replace the vapourous propane removed form the top of the tank. This takes large quantities of heat, which usually get extracted from the tank system itself, cooling the tank temperature, reducing the pressure, with reduced pressure less vapour will flow, thus you will starve your engine (all depending on what pressure you were planning to inject with in the first place). Senario 80 F day, where tank temp was essentially 80 F. 15 gallons of fuel drained from a 51 (80%) gallon tank through a vapour port at the top of the tank. When all was said and done the finall tank temperature was 4 F. Now you are still 48 degress above freezing point of propane but the vapour pressure is seriously reduced. Just above 26 psig. But with a good lean burn system you would probably be regulating down to this pressure anyway (maybe less 17 psig). This leads me to the second problem, cold starting and cold driveability. -25 F vapour pressure is about 8 psig, not enough fuel getting to your engine. My suggestion would be to withdraw from the bottom for the vapour system and vapourize it under the hood where there is plenty of heat. But if you are only going to drive it in the warmer weather, and withdraw vaopour for small periods of time, then you shouldn't have to worry about the above. As for a dry gas regulator I have not heard of an automotive grade one, but there are laboratory grade regs, and for all intesive purposes you should be able to build one your self. Its seems that you are going to have a good controll strategy which should handle most engine fueling demands, however, if you are planning to have a predictable amount of liquid propane you may have to enlist the services of an in-tank pump (as in the chrysler liquid injection system) or an external pump (tuthill???). Also, I don't know if you mentioned it, the liquid system should have some way of returning the vapour, generated in it, to the tank (return line to tank or perhaps a line to your vapour injectors). Reason unless you can pump the liquid up to an enormously high pressure, or completely isolate the lines from under hood heat, the liquid will flash to vapour in your supply line. This can cause a vapour lock in your system. Main reason why the chrysler system uses bottom feed injectors. The oriface used to pass the liquid into the system is probably going to be smaller than the vapour injectors (liquid unregulated pressure > regulated vapour). Thus your controller will call for x lbs of liquid propane and only get .1x lbs of vaopour propane, or something to that effect. If you have a return line back to your tank you can continously pump fuel into your liquid distribution system cooling it, purging out any vapour (which would really accumulate under hot soak condintions) and thus get liquid when you want it. My apologies for being long winded. Again good luck with this system. Its looks very attainable with easy to aquire hardware and one seriously crazy control stratgey. Keep us posted of you progress we all could learn a lot here. J. - ---------- > From: Robert Harris > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: All the non-DYI-EFI crap I've put up here > Date: Saturday, September 13, 1997 11:34 AM > > What I would like to do and am working out is correctly called a Bi-Fuel system > (i.e. using two fuels at the same time) rather than a Dual Fuel (using either > or system). > > Fuel A Timed port injection Vapor Propane. A poster ran Methane on a 75 lb > per hour Alcohol Injector at 80 psi and got 19 lbs per hour. Another mentioned > Big Block Chevy Injectors run 75 lbs per hour and handle reasonable pressure. > Using a dry vapor regulator off the top of the tank (still looking - any clues) > will plumb the regulated vapor to the injectors. Looking for 15 to 20 lbs per > hour. Getting info on any number of TPI EFI systems that can be used. Start, > run, idle, low - mid range on Propane Vapor. > > Fuel A prime. Liquid Propane. Think NOS spray bar or direct port. Will run > line from bottom (liquid) line unregulated to NOS type Gas Solenoid at spray > bar. Sense RPM, throttle position and PW of injector (and other depending on > final EFI selection) to determine turnon. Measure Tank Pressure and apply > curve for volume thru orifice correction. Grossly adjust EFI - finely regulate > thru Oxygen. > EFI selected must run closed loop at WOT as with propane, richening past stoich > RAISES temp's to meltdown range - not runs cooler. Got to error on lean side. > Each spray bar step will be power of two flowed so step two flows twice of step > one and strep three flows twice of step two. This gives me 8 points with the > step > approximately equal between the points. May only wind up with 2 as this covers > a wide range with reasonable cost. > > What I get at this point is an off the shelf injection system that is tweakable > by a Chris Johnson or other chip or programming package to be just happy fine > on Propane. All the controllability of TPI with SIMPLE CIS for taking > advantage of the high latent heat of evaporation. > > Fuel B will be unleaded pump gas to use as a cheap extender fuel. Gasoline is > cheaper than propane in most parts of the country and as this system is going > on an RV, would like to take advantage of it. Also, if you can avoid start, > idle, and very light load, you avoid most of the problems. Plan is after > warm-up, and under cruise load, to switch the vapor injectors out and use > gasoline thru small injectors located near the port. This will be an either/or > situation - not both. Sizing the propane and gasoline injectors flow similarly > and using the gasoline primarily to trim or light moderate load portion. May > delay liquid propane steps till later in the pulse width to allow more > gasoline. A hidden side benefit of gasoline this way is to extend engine life > even further. The major wear point on a LPG/CNG engine is the uncooled and > unlubricated exhaust valve. Gasoline contains lubricants for the exhaust valve > and adding Instead of Lead would really eliminate the wear. Could probably get > away with not using unobtainium exotic valves and seats. > > I can now have a high torque, hi compression (efficiency goes up startlingly > with compressions over 9 to 1), very clean burning, very long life engine that > can pull heavy loads without detonating. Gasoline has 20 percent more energy > per gallon (but less per pound) than Propane and using it in a propane > optimized engine gives even greater economy. Since the fuel switches to higher > octane, much colder liquid propane under load, I can forget about gasoline > detonation limits on a high compression engine. Also note that gasoline is a > major player only under light moderate cruise loads where the extra propane > advance and higher compression really kick in. If I experience light ping, can > run a solenoid valve from the regulated vapor to a central intake point. Set > the hole size to supply most of the fuel for idle. Now will have a 112 octane > "trickle" that should kill the light ping dead like DI. > > Fuel selection is Propane, or Both. Limp home on gasoline risks the China > Syndrome or interstellar beginnings on a high compression big block. > > As cost IS an object and Keep It Simple Stupid rules apply - I think I'm > nearing the point when I can get it done. Please note - if both injectors flow > the same amount of fuel in Pounds per hour, the EFI should be well within trim > range for either fuel. Also, by limiting the range of control for the timed > injectors, I keep the cost way down without sacrificing any performance or > economy. > > Also looking for moderate priced wide range O2 sensor as propane Likes to run > lean - up to about 18 to one and runs COOLER leaner. Thiminking about how to > do this. > > Usual disclaimer - just my normal wild ass guessing and dreaming > > "When some one gets something for nothing - > some one else gets nothing for something " > > If the first ingredient ain't Habanero, then the rest don't matter. > Robert Harris > > ------------------------------ From: Jason Lewis Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 14:51:02 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: fuel flow sensing On Sun, 14 Sep 1997, Justin Albury wrote: > Jason Lewis wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I have a question thats not really on topic. > > > > I'm building a trip computer for my car, and i'm after some sort of fuel > > flow sensor so i can measure how much fuel im using (btw, my car still > > carburetor) > > > > The only flow meters i have seen were really expensive, i was wondering > > if anyone knows where can get one quite cheaply. (preferably in Australia) > > > > thanks in advance > > > > Jason > > > jason > > have you seen the setup on vk & vl 5.0 non efi commodores??? the fuel > flow sensor screws in infront of the carbie......still very $$$$$ new > but you should find a wecked calis with one on it ..... > Good thinking Batman! ill get on the phone on monday morning :) Thanks Jason ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #318 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".