DIY_EFI Digest Sunday, 14 September 1997 Volume 02 : Number 319 In this issue: Re: fuel flow sensing Re: fuel flow sensing Re: O2 sensor output Re: Habanero Re: DTI-EFI web site Re: All the non-DYI-EFI crap I've put up here o2 sensors in Australia Re: All the non-DYI-EFI crap I've put up here See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jason Lewis Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 14:56:50 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: fuel flow sensing Bill, On Sat, 13 Sep 1997, Bill Williams wrote: > How accurate does this meter have to be and under what pressure > does it have to work? There are some fuel flow meters that might meet > your needs if other conditions are met. > --- Bill in Boulder "Engineering as > an Art Form" --- > With regards to accuracy, i'm not sure, but i guess one of the factors is that it should still be acurate at very low flow rates (like when idleing) This implies that it ought to be of the displacement type, and not the vein type (i think thats what its called). I'd like to get something that is at least accurate to %1 i think. on a 60 litre tank, thats still 600ml ( a reasonable amount of fuel) With regards to pressure, i have no idea how much pressure is developed behind the carburetor's fuel input. My car has a mechanical fuel pump, and its for a carbeurator engine, so i would imagine the pressures involved would be much lower than an efi engine. But thats about all i could say on the matter. Prehaps someone else out there knows what sort of pressures i would be likely to encounter. Thanks Jason ------------------------------ From: Jason Lewis Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 14:59:53 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: fuel flow sensing Garfield, On Sun, 14 Sep 1997, Garfield wrote: > On Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:29:48 +1000, Justin Albury > wrote: > > >have you seen the setup on vk & vl 5.0 non efi commodores??? the fuel > >flow sensor screws in infront of the carbie......still very $$$$$ new > >but you should find a wecked calis with one on it ..... > > Eh, speak up man, that mumbling's entirely too faint for those dying to > get some true but inexpensive flow measuring scheme going...so, could > you say in more detail and slowly for the older folks, just what this > "vk & vl non efi commodores" is?? Please. A commodore is an australian model of the GM Holden make. vk and vl are just particular models of commodores. Calis is actually supposed to be Calais i think, and thats just another model of Holden :) Jason ------------------------------ From: Jeremy Fleming Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 01:22:04 -0600 Subject: Re: O2 sensor output On 12-Sep-97, alex nicu wrote: >Anyone thinking on using a microcontroller to make that O2 sensor output >to be readable ? >If you have any detailed info of the output , I can spend some time to >implement an correction map , if this is posible . >Alex >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alex, Actually, I am, sort of. I've been kicking around the idea of building a diagnostic code checker for my '86 RX-7 using a PIC. It won't really be looking at the O2 sensor, though, as the diagnostic connector has three open collector lines off of the ECU- two that show the tens and ones of the code, and one that blinks to show (I'm guessing) the status of the O2 sensor. The factory manual says that you should see x blinks in y amount of time. If it is, say, on when the O2 sensor is high, and off when it is low, x number of blinks per unit of time means that it is crossing the stoich point x times. Anyway, seems to me to be pretty straightforward to count the HI/LOW transitions per unit time and give a number (not AFR, but a blink/time value) that you could compare to factory specs. If you're wondering why I want to fool with such a stone axe application- the dealer wants many hundreds of dollars for a genuine mazda code checker, and I'm just getting into microcontrollers. Seems like a no brainer, but these kinds of things usually prove my absence of brainpower. Jeremy jeremy@xxx.net ------------------------------ From: Johnny Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 23:33:58 -0700 Subject: Re: Habanero Land Shark wrote: > > At 02:32 AM 9/13/97 -0700, you wrote: > > >What's Habanero? > > Best damn chile' pepper on the planet > > Hottest, too!... > > It tastes a bit like an apricot, right before > the wall of flame gets you... > > I personally LOVE them.. but like diy-efi > they are not for everyone... > > *grin* Thanks to all that replied about this. I thought the name sounded very familiar, but I couldn't place it until you guys gave the description. A buddy of mine who now lives in Oregon has a little green house in his back yard and grows all kinds of exotic peppers. He is very knowledgable about peppers and even gets like a pepper periodical. He is the one that had mentioned these to me some time ago and the name stuck but I couldn't remember from where. I really love hot food so I'll have to give these a try. I beg to differ on milk being the cool down though. I have found that for me chinese tea is the best. If you really want to burn, chug something carbonated. For extreme extended burning, swish the carbonated beverage around in your mouth before swallowing. Like throwing gas on the fire ;) - -j- (all of a sudden in the mood for a creole dish of some sort) ------------------------------ From: "Dean Flavell" Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:39:15 +1200 Subject: Re: DTI-EFI web site Dean wrote: > >Just inquiring where in the DTI-EFI website. Steve replied: > Dean its called a type-O, I was talking about the DYI-efi site. The "Y" > and "T" are adjacent you know. > Sorry Steve I usually check to see if it's adjacent to but the dyslexic part caught me out. Steve wrote: >And we are running rich, really rich. >I have checked out every component of the >system, they are all fine. But I have playied with the air flow meter. Well the air flow meter would be a smart place to start !! So check the tyre pressures. Dean. (-; When they broke open molecules, they found they were only stuffed with atoms. But when they broke open atoms, they found them stuffed with explosions. ;-) ------------------------------ From: "Robert Harris" Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 00:34:05 -0700 Subject: Re: All the non-DYI-EFI crap I've put up here The good old capitalist U S of A. I can routinely buy Propane much cheaper than gasoline around home. However, once upon the Free Ways and Bye ways, you get it in the neck at the truck stops, gas stops and RV parks etc cause they know you need it and you aint coming by again. I've seen as high as a US$1.90 per gallon without even trying to get nailed. Besides, you got to multiply it by about 1.2 to compensate for the lower poundage per gallon. Please remember that road warriors do not have the time or local knowledge to get the best deal - - only time to top off and go about life in the fast lane. "When some one gets something for nothing - some one else gets nothing for something " If the first ingredient ain't Habanero, then the rest don't matter. Robert Harris - ---------- > From: Clare Snyder > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: All the non-DYI-EFI crap I've put up here > Date: Saturday, September 13, 1997 5:36 PM > And what country are you in?????? > Here in Ontario Canada, propane is something about .27 per litre, and 87 > octane unleaded is currently just a tad under .60, was .65 a week ago. ------------------------------ From: Bruno! Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 17:47:39 +1000 (EST) Subject: o2 sensors in Australia Hi all, I was wondering if anyone in austrlia knows of where i can find a heated o2 sensor that isn't stupidly expensive. This sounds open ended, as there are different options i might try: 1) from a ford or holden (gm) dealer. are the sensors on these cars (the gm 3.8l in particular) heated? 2) aftermarket. I haven't done *too* much looking in this department, only that i've found a couple of exhaust shops want 150 bucks for an unheated o2 senor, and about 250 for a heated one (i think) 3) from a wreck, i.e. jpanese import. There are a few importers in aus, though i'm a bit dubious about these sensors, as they are in unknown condition, and i may be paying for a dud. Is there another option i've missed? I'll be running the sensor at the collector of the four pipes on my car most likely, which is about one metre (sic :)) from the exhaust port, hence the need for the heated o2. i'm running leaded petrol right now, and may migrate to unleaded every once in a while, to keep the o2 clean. Thanks, and seeya, Bruno. (b.marzano@xxx.au) On the internet, no-one can hear you scream. ------------------------------ From: "Robert Harris" Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 01:30:16 -0700 Subject: Re: All the non-DYI-EFI crap I've put up here > From: Joe Chiasson > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: All the non-DYI-EFI crap I've put up here > Date: Saturday, September 13, 1997 8:35 PM > > Bi-fuel dual fuel, I'm always getting those mixed up, don't think I will > ever get it right. > Anyway thanyou for your reply, it sounds like a very interesting system, I > really hope it works. I have been considering more of a dual fuel system > myself (gasoline and propane with propane being the primary and gasoline > being a back-up, main reason some places its hard to find establishments > which are licensed to fill motor vehicles.) Your bi-fuel system, as I said, > seems really interesting, perhaps out of my ball park (not a wiz with > controllers yet), but reading about your system may push me to go ahead and > work on a dual fuel system. Vehicle is a 34 foot long converted Immigration Bus - Basically a Ford C-600 tilt cab with a 27 foot passenger bus body placed where the flat bed would be. Engine is a 429, 5 speed with granny and 2 speed rear end. The control scheme is to take ANY off the shelf EFI system and by replacing the gasoline injectors with vapor injectors - let it do its thing without any big deal. The piggy back liquid system merely extends the control range without getting crazy on the injectors. Making the vapor injectors flow about the same as the gasoline injectors means that simply by "flipping a switch" I'm burning both gasoline and propane and the EFI controller doesn' t even need to know it happened!! Remember - simplify and steal. First - vapor phase. Tank is a 60 gallon US tank - mounted right front under body, just behind engine - typical truck style. The vapor is used only for starting, warm-up and when gasoline not available. Basically as control fluid. The bulk of the fuel under load will be liquid propane. Assume 10 MPG, 60 miles per hour, that means 6 gallons x ~5 or 30 lbs. an hour of propane vapor to be pulled from the tank if no liquid gasoline or propane being used. Not much for the size of the tank and the fact its hanging out in the open, subject to heat and vibration. Speaking of heat, since leaving South Dakota as a kid, I consider solid water to be an un-natural and unlivable condition, I avoid those climates at all costs. Fall back if heat is actually needed is to run black heater hose from engine cooling about twice the length of the tank - with a on/off valve for coolant controlled by pressure. But using your scenario - I would be taking one third the fuel over an hour. I'll try it but at the low actual rate, I don't think it will be a problem. Smaller tanks and higher rates of fuel flow it would rapidly become a problem. Next to liquid propane. The model is NOS bottle kits. Safety valve at tank liquid, one way line to engine. (Remember - this is NOT a closed hood auto but an open engine bay with about a 8 foot max spray bar to tank run). NOS gas solenoid valve (handles 1500+ PSI) opens line to spray bar - 3" max. Selecting which are on and off gives binary control. The solenoid valve is much larger than the spray bar. Only place for vapor to form is on output side of solenoid valve as its dumped to the spray bar. Any vapor forming in line from heat will push liquid back into tank. If line all vapor at turn on, oh well it soon won't be. Since the liquid propane is going to be just dumped unregulated into the intake, using a small line will minimize the problem. Also remember, spray bars are flowing constantly - and the valve serves only to turn off or on the flow - not to regulate. Thats controlled by the fixed orifices at the spray bar. Since a stamp computer can readily convert pressure to flows thru the binary jets, it is far simpler to eliminate all the pumps, injectors etc and use three nozzles sized 1 - 2 - 4 to get 8 major steps and then just accept them and reduce the vapor side by the step amount. Leave all the analog like stuff to the main controller to smooth out. With 7 equal steps, it does not really matter where each kicks in - as long as the vapor system is still left in control range. "When some one gets something for nothing - some one else gets nothing for something " If the first ingredient ain't Habanero, then the rest don't matter. Robert Harris ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #319 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".