DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, 17 September 1997 Volume 02 : Number 323 In this issue: Re: L-Jetronic boxes Re: ? for you guys Re: Muscle Car Fuel Injection Re: fuel flow sensing AW: Renault FI? specs for garrett turbocharger fuel injections for motorcycles Re: fuel injections for motorcycles Re: fuel injections for motorcycles Re: fuel injections for motorcycles O2 schematics again Re: Injector"spray"vs.evaporation Re: Injector"spray"vs.evaporation Re: O2 schematics again See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: clsnyde@xxx.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 12:41:39 GMT Subject: Re: L-Jetronic boxes > Has anyone tried modifying a Bosch L-Jetronic ECU to give >different characteristics? > The L-Jet Web page which has also been mentioned here (at >www.students.tut.fi/~k124775/injection.html) lists the function of >many important resistors. > Other than these resistors, the L-Jets all appear to be basically >the same inside. > All the resistors of interest (in the several I have looked >inside of) are mounted on terminals about 1/4" above the board - it >looks like they were intended to be changed for different engine and >injector sizes. > Any ideas? I need a new box for my '81 BMW 745i (Bosch 0 280 001 >124 or 127), and they are extremely rare. On the other hand, 733i >boxes are readily available. >Thanks. >-Charles >cmorris@xxx.com > > If the resistors are the only difference, just install resistors in the new box to match the old. If you can get a 733i box cheap, you do not have much to lose. ------------------------------ From: sjacobs914@xxx.com (Stephen J Jacobs) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:55:55 -0400 Subject: Re: ? for you guys Take Care, Stephen Jacobs SJacobs914@xxx.com > > >Take a look at my web site at the Mazda EFI conversion. Let me know >what >you think. > >Steve Look at it, but I am more interested in your VW converisons. The information looks like what I need, but I am wondering about is the ignition system. You are using a direct fire system from a Saturn. Looks like what I requested just a while back. Oh well guess I should send off for the info and pay the piper. Stephen Jacobs SJacobs914@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: peter paul fenske Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Muscle Car Fuel Injection Hi Paul Best to go with PORT INJECTION.. The cease fire was never known for great perf.. Even GM dropped it in favor of port FI. With the 360 a chryco mag distributer can fire the GM ECM controlled HEI module ok.. This would let you interface to a GM ecm notably the MAP driven 730. IF you are using a no idle cam you might go to the 165 with MAF or DFI ecm. Use a victor junior or tunnel ram and modify for injector using bosses available from ACCEL or MSD. Use the ACCEL throttle body adapter and then use a stock GM throttle body or one of the after market replacements. Of course you can make a sheet metal manifold but sometimes anyways email me for more details if you like bye:peter ------------------------------ From: Ting.Zhou@xxx.COM (Ting Zhou) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:52:19 -0700 Subject: Re: fuel flow sensing >> Maybe some kind soul could help out this old fossil and suggest some >> suitable "donor" car models/years and where the sensor would be found, >> roughly (and please don't just say, "in the fuel line, you dummy", cause >> I can figure THAT out, heh). > >I'm sure that most manufacturers do this like Ford does. There is no >actual sensor in the fuel system. The fuel consumption can be derrived >by the on time of the injectors. The computer then sends this signal to >the trip computer in the form of a PWM signal. In a Ford Computer this >is done on a line labeled DOL (Data output link). The computer also has >an input from the VSS (Vehicle Speed Sensor) and can thus calculate MPG. > Holden is doing the same thing in their VP, VR, and VS model. ------------------------------ From: "Rausch, Bernd" Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:18:58 +0100 Subject: AW: Renault FI? > -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- > Von: Chris Morriss [SMTP:crsm@xxx.uk] > Gesendet am: Dienstag, 2. September 1997 21:06 > An: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Betreff: Re: Renault FI? >=20 > In message <199709021515.KAA13633@xxx.com>, Mark Taschek > writes > > > >> >AMC / RENIX system - a unit all it's own. I was looking for my > manual- seam > >> >to have misplaced it > >> > > >> I don't know about over in the US, but in the UK and mainland > Europe > >> Renault used the Renix multiport injection on the 2.2 litre engine > used > >> on the Renault 25. I think that the turbo versions of the Renault > V6 > >> used Renix as well. (The non-turbo versions used K-jetronic) > >> --=20 > >> Chris Morriss > >>=20 > > > >//////////////////////// > > > >Chris are you living in the UK and what else do you know about the > >Renix multiport box?? and are there any contacks there that you know > of?? > > > >Mark Taschek > >mtaschek@xxx.com >=20 > I don't know the box at all unfortunately. I have a carb Renault > Alpine > GTA with the 2.8L V6 and am intending to convert it to EFI. I need a > source for the weld-in injector mounts in the UK so that I can modify > the very free flowing inlet manifold that Renault used on the V6 > engines > that were equipped with K-jetronic injection. Or has somebody on = this > list got an EFI manifold for the Renault V6 that they could sell me? > The breakers yards don't seem to have any. >=20 > There is a chapter on Renix in Jan Norbye's book on the history of > fuel > injection. > --=20 > Chris Morriss >=20 Hi Chris and Mark, I have a Renault Alpine Europa-Cup. The Cup has a larger turbo and modified intake ports. There is an adjustable fuel-regulator and some kind of "extra-electronic" in a sealed box witch is adapted to the Renix ECU (I think it modifies engine temp signal). Since my car has a further modified engine (cams, lowered compression, ports), I tried to get some info about the Renix system = but I not very successfull. There are different versions of the ECU: Some use a mask programmed 6805 with some IO (I don=B4t remeber the type exactly, I think U5) and some use a 68HC11 with extra eprom. I was not able to get more Infos. I decided to install a custom ECU that is fully programmable. If you are intrested in K-Jetronic parts, please E-Mail me, i have a lot of them. Bernd ------------------------------ From: "Rausch, Bernd" Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:23:10 +0100 Subject: specs for garrett turbocharger > I have a Garrett turbocharger in my Renault Alpine Europacup (V6 2,5L) > with the following Label: > > No Client 104052 > No. S. QC 1469 > Model DEV > > On the compressor/turbine: > > 20E87 / DH5 > M4 > A/R 48 > 115-54 > > Can you tell me something about this type of turbo (max HP output, > compressor map, etc) > > Thank you in advance for any info > > Bernd Rausch ------------------------------ From: "Christian B. Hoelzle" Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:42:48 +0200 Subject: fuel injections for motorcycles Hi there, is on of you working on - or already finished with a fuel injection for a motorbike? #-) cbh ------------------------------ From: djp@xxx.edu (Dick Protus) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:24:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: fuel injections for motorcycles > > Hi there, > > is on of you working on - or already finished with a fuel injection for > a motorbike? > > #-) cbh > I'm working on one for my Honda F3, but the motor is basicaly a smaller, higher revving version of an automotive 4 cylinder. I've had experience using an electromotive on this engine, but I have "issues" with the electromotive setup. 1)If you want a rev limit, the highest the software allows is 12000RPM, stock redline is 13500. 2)Software only allows for max of 60 degrees of total advance. 3) It is a pain to fit the required 60-2 timing wheel to the crank. Injectors small enough are hard to find unless you run a low fuel pressure (around 25-35psi). Also, be prepared for tech info people at fuel injection places to not be used to your application. Not many engines make 3hp per cubic inch, or make 100+Hp on 120cfm of air. dick protus ------------------------------ From: "Christian B. Hoelzle" Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 23:01:35 +0200 Subject: Re: fuel injections for motorcycles Dick Protus wrote: > > > > Hi there, > > > > is on of you working on - or already finished with a fuel injection > for > > a motorbike? > > > > #-) cbh > > > I'm working on one for my Honda F3, but the motor is basicaly > a smaller, > higher revving version of an automotive 4 cylinder. > I've had experience using an electromotive on this engine, but > I have > "issues" with the electromotive setup. 1)If you want a rev limit, the > highest the software allows is 12000RPM, stock redline is 13500. the CBX has its highest RPM with 9600 (so the engine does somthing aroud 11000 without any harm). But it is good to know those things - thanks > 2)Software only allows for max of 60 degrees of total advance. I have no plan what that means? (my technical english aint that good). Could you give more informations - what is meant by degrees > 3) It is a pain to fit the required 60-2 timing wheel to the crank. Whats a crank? And what do you mean with the timing wheel.A friend of mine who was in the team that designed the BMW Z3 engine told me that I would need four things: - -the rotation - -the temperature - -the CO2 after the zylinder and - -the vacuum before the zylinder isn't that all - or do I need more data > Injectors small enough are hard to find unless you run a low > fuel > pressure (around 25-35psi). > Also, be prepared for tech info people at fuel injection > places to > not be used to your application. Not many engines make 3hp per cubic > inch, > or make 100+Hp on 120cfm of air. > > dick protus THANKS!!!! '-) cbh ------------------------------ From: djp@xxx.edu (Dick Protus) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:50:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: fuel injections for motorcycles > > Dick Protus wrote: > > > > > > > Hi there, > > > > > > is on of you working on - or already finished with a fuel injection > > for > > > a motorbike? > > > > > > #-) cbh > > > > > I'm working on one for my Honda F3, but the motor is basicaly > > a smaller, > > higher revving version of an automotive 4 cylinder. > > I've had experience using an electromotive on this engine, but > > I have > > "issues" with the electromotive setup. 1)If you want a rev limit, the > > highest the software allows is 12000RPM, stock redline is 13500. > > the CBX has its highest RPM with 9600 (so the engine does somthing aroud > 11000 without any harm). But it is good to know those things - thanks > > > 2)Software only allows for max of 60 degrees of total advance. > > I have no plan what that means? (my technical english aint that good). > Could you give more informations - what is meant by degrees I may have gotten ahead of you. You are just interested in the fuel injection part from what I gather, the advance has to do with the timing of the spark for the ignition (which I usually think of as part of a fuel injection controller, but not always/usually the case). The degreees is how many angular degrees before the cylinder reaches top dead center that the spark is fired. > > > 3) It is a pain to fit the required 60-2 timing wheel to the crank. > > Whats a crank? And what do you mean with the timing wheel.A friend of > mine who was in the team that designed the BMW Z3 engine told me that I > would need four things: > -the rotation > -the temperature > -the CO2 after the zylinder and > -the vacuum before the zylinder > isn't that all - or do I need more data > Yes if you just want a simple controller for just fuel injection, although the CO2 after the cylinder confuses me. I'm not familiar with measuring CO2, maybe someone else can help me out here, or maybe you mean to measure oxygen with ego sensor? The timing wheel on the crank shaft (what the pistons are attached to) provides two things -rotation speed and -rotation angle. You'll only need the rotation speed and you may be able to use the tach signal. dick protus ------------------------------ From: "alex nicu" Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 20:00:09 PDT Subject: O2 schematics again After JUST 5 days I update my web page . Now ( if nothing is wrong again with my provider ) you can find there the O2 meter schemtics. I'm waiting for comments , Alex http://home.onestop.net/nalex ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "B.E. Herron" Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:04:27 -0700 Subject: Re: Injector"spray"vs.evaporation - -----Original Message----- From: Mario Tito To: fi discuss 2 Date: Sunday, September 14, 1997 4:47 PM Subject: Injector"spray"vs.evaporation >The logic goes, carbs can't do >this consistently, but the high pressured injectors can atomize better. >Yes. And fully evaporated gasoline 'explodes' rather than 'burns', right? > Please- anyone with the scientific answers to this would be appreciated. >I am afraid of sparking another "wonder-bra-carb-something-for-nothing" >discussion. > If this point is true, then to make the most efficient engine, I should >be concerned with not leaving gas-spray on the walls of the intake >manifold, and consider sequential injection. > >Mario T. >mailto:Freshmar@xxx.com-----'76 VW Camper FI A/T,,'79 Fiat X1/9 Mario: Yes, injectors atomize fuel better than a carb and prevent runner and cylinder wetting to a greater extent when placed close to the port. No, fully atomized gasoline still burns, just at a MUCH faster rate and MUCH more completely. A number of years ago, I read about a "Hot Vapor" engine that Smokey Yunick designed and developed with the intent of selling to the auto companies (none of them bit though - pity). This system ran the air/fuel mixture through a manifold that circulated the engine water around the charge and then passed the charge to another manifold that the exhaust system ran around (can you say _dangerous_ here) and then dumped the charge into the cylinders though a carb. The mixture was around 400 to 500 degrees F when entered into the chamber and fully atomized. He was getting (if my feeble memory serves me correctly) about 150 HP and 50 mpg from a three-cylinder sprint engine. If the danger points can be avoided, I don't see why this mixture could not be injected, unless the temperature is too high for the injectors. BEH '66 Mustang Fastback '73 Camaro RS ------------------------------ From: swagaero Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 21:44:09 -0700 Subject: Re: Injector"spray"vs.evaporation B.E. Herron wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mario Tito > To: fi discuss 2 > Date: Sunday, September 14, 1997 4:47 PM > Subject: Injector"spray"vs.evaporation > > > >The logic goes, carbs can't do > >this consistently, but the high pressured injectors can atomize better. > >Yes. And fully evaporated gasoline 'explodes' rather than 'burns', right? > > Please- anyone with the scientific answers to this would be appreciated. > >I am afraid of sparking another "wonder-bra-carb-something-for-nothing" > >discussion. > > If this point is true, then to make the most efficient engine, I should > >be concerned with not leaving gas-spray on the walls of the intake > >manifold, and consider sequential injection. > > > >Mario T. > >mailto:Freshmar@xxx.com-----'76 VW Camper FI A/T,,'79 Fiat X1/9 > > Mario: > > Yes, injectors atomize fuel better than a carb and prevent runner and > cylinder wetting to a greater extent when placed close to the port. No, > fully atomized gasoline still burns, just at a MUCH faster rate and MUCH > more completely. A number of years ago, I read about a "Hot Vapor" engine > that Smokey Yunick designed and developed with the intent of selling to the > auto companies (none of them bit though - pity). This system ran the > air/fuel mixture through a manifold that circulated the engine water around > the charge and then passed the charge to another manifold that the exhaust > system ran around (can you say _dangerous_ here) and then dumped the charge > into the cylinders though a carb. The mixture was around 400 to 500 degrees > F when entered into the chamber and fully atomized. He was getting (if my > feeble memory serves me correctly) about (150 HP and 50 mpg) ( three-cylinder sprint engine.) is there any thing in print of how he did this?? Steve ----|------||------|---- --|------[]------|-- 0/ \0 www.flash.net/~swagaero ------------------------------ From: Scott Feaver Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 01:19:13 -0400 Subject: Re: O2 schematics again At 08:00 PM 9/16/97 PDT, you wrote: >After JUST 5 days I update my web page . Now ( if nothing is wrong again >with my provider ) you can find there the O2 meter schemtics. >I'm waiting for comments , Alex >http://home.onestop.net/nalex I just checked out your page.. Was wondering how that RPM meter was coming along? Sounds interesting. Scott ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #323 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".