DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, 18 September 1997 Volume 02 : Number 324 In this issue: 68705 r3cs Re: Injector"spray"vs.evaporation Re: Holley ECM replacement efi user interface Re: fuel injections for motorcycles ECU Software RE: 68705 r3cs Re: O2 schematics again Re: efi user interface wicked squeaks, possibly TPEFI related Spark timing,points/Hall effect Re: wicked squeaks, possibly TPEFI related Anyone know... Re: wicked squeaks, possibly TPEFI related Re: Anyone know... Re: wicked squeaks, possibly TPEFI related Re: Muscle Car Fuel Injection Re: Muscle Car Fuel Injection Electric turbo Re: wicked squeaks, possibly TPEFI related Re: wicked squeaks, possibly TPEFI related Re: Holley ECM replacement Measuring dynamic cylinder pressure RE Volvo K-jet... Re: Spark timing,points/Hall effect Re: wicked squeaks, possibly TPEFI related See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "K PILLAY : STUDENT" Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:26:35 +0200 (SAST) Subject: 68705 r3cs Does anybody know how to read the code off the eprom on this chip ? i.e. I have the circuit to program the device but how do you read the stored info to modify and re-store. Thanks Kevin # Too much power is just an ILLUSION !!!!! # ------------------------------ From: "Dean" Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:12:56 +1200 Subject: Re: Injector"spray"vs.evaporation Re: Holley ECM replacement > > Mario: > > > > Yes, injectors atomize fuel better than a carb and prevent runner and > > cylinder wetting to a greater extent when placed close to the port. No, > > fully atomized gasoline still burns, just at a MUCH faster rate and MUCH > > more completely. A number of years ago, I read about a "Hot Vapor" engine > > that Smokey Yunick designed and developed with the intent of selling to the > > auto companies (none of them bit though - pity). This system ran the > > air/fuel mixture through a manifold that circulated the engine water around > > the charge and then passed the charge to another manifold that the exhaust > > system ran around (can you say _dangerous_ here) and then dumped the charge > > into the cylinders though a carb. The mixture was around 400 to 500 degrees > > F when entered into the chamber and fully atomized. He was getting (if my > > feeble memory serves me correctly) about (150 HP and 50 mpg) > > ( three-cylinder sprint engine.) The book I have maybe an older version (about 10 years old) but you were right on B.E.H about the mixture degrees 400-440F and in this book Smokey used a 2.5L 4-cylinder got 50 MPG 250HP and 230 ft.lb torque. It was turboed with 15 psi boost but the reason he said was to use it as a one way valve so the mixture wouldn't push back through the carb. > is there any thing in print of how he did this?? > > Steve > > ----|------||------|---- > --|------[]------|-- > 0/ \0 Steve if you want a copy of this ( 3 pages ) I could scan it in the next few days you post your circuit described below: > >If you are a running GM map system I have a circuit that comps for > >almost any cam combo. > > > >Steve Steve if this is an unreasonable ask because you may have spend many valuable hours getting it togeather then feel free to tell me where to go jump. P.S. and if you are into "You won't believe what you read" then check out http://rand.nidlink.com/~john1/foreward.html this guy tells about a DC electric motor turning a generator that puts out more than it consumes so charges the battery it runs off. Dean. (-; Most books now say our sun is a star. But it still knows how to change back into a sun in the daytime. ;-) ------------------------------ From: David Chambers Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:55:49 +1000 Subject: efi user interface Hi, I am in the process of trying to write a user interface to my home made efi system and am wondering if anyone knows of an easy to use set of graphing routines for C. I would like to be able to draw 2D and 3D graphs and then have the user interact with the graph to change the injection times etc. Any info on free software or cheap would be much appreciated. David Chambers ------------------------------ From: Zoltan Lajber Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 14:02:47 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: fuel injections for motorcycles > Hi there, > > is on of you working on - or already finished with a fuel injection for > a motorbike? Seymaz (switzerland) have a nice RC45... (185HP @ 14800, very good torque, some more interesting things like variable geometry intake pipes... > Whats a crank? And what do you mean with the timing wheel.A friend of > mine who was in the team that designed the BMW Z3 engine told me that I > would need four things: > - -the rotation But forget the bosch like 60-but-2-missing wheels, just a big pain in bikes. you can use the original (8-but-1 missing from honda, 2x2+1 from Kawa, for example). > - -the temperature of what? > - -the CO2 after the zylinder and I think you meen oxigen by lambda, but for bikes, it not necesseary todays. But it helps to set up the engine too. > - -the vacuum before the zylinder > isn't that all - or do I need more data If you go with custom setup, worth it to join the injection/ignition. For the amount of fuel, you need to know the speed and load of engine. The speed is simples with some inductiv or hall effect sensors. The load could be determined in several way: from intake pressure, throtle position, air mass flow. Few of them need aditional correction, like intake air temperature, and/or barometric pressure (you should read it from intak pressure sensor before the engine starts). Another necesary correction is the engine coolant temperature. With this information, you can run a injection. For ignition, you need at least the engine speed, but recommended to use the load and intake temperature too. To be able to syncronized with engine, you may need a refernce signal from camshaft, or if you go for simple, from crankshaft. In this case you are not able to use secvenctial injection, which may be a problem at low speed. If you need high power, move far the injectors, and tweak the software to be able to handle it even at low speed. Bye, - -=Lajbi=-------------------------------------------------------------------- LAJBER Zoltan lajber@xxx.hu/~lajbi E.S.E.M.,L.M.E. http://www.univ-orleans.fr/ESEM/LME/ A member of HuLUG http://www.cab.u-szeged.hu/local/linux/ ------------------------------ From: "APE" Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:29:46 0 Subject: ECU Software List members, I am looking to purchase software to re-program the GM ECU in late model (94-97) LT1 equipped Camaro's & Firebirds. There have been rumors of competed packages out there, but nothing finished as of yet. And please refrain from telling me to call Hypertech for a power programmer. Thanks, Matt ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ AUBURN PERFORMANCE EQUIPMENT - Your Supercharging and EFI high performance shop! UNBEATABLE prices on Superchargers from Vortech, Powerdyne, & ATI ORDER ONLY LINE 1-800-858-0070 24 hr FAX LINE (508)832-9566 TECHNICAL QUESTION LINE (508)832-6765 WEBSITE & ON-LINE CATALOG: http://www.tiac.net/users/goape/index.htm ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: Tim Willis Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:07:18 +1000 Subject: RE: 68705 r3cs - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCC3C1.CC064A40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think this chip has a bootstrap program in hardware that is initiated = when the device is powered up and certain voltages are present on = certain pins. What the program does is to read in from an external = eprom and burn the onboard rom/eprom with the equivalent, when finished = a programmed signal is produced.. Then the eprom is read again and = compared, is the two agree the verify signal is output. The data book = mentions reading code out, but a small segment of code must be = programmed into the eprom that can be initiated by the user and code = would be clocked out of the chip. Once the real code has been burnt = this facility is no longer available. =20 The only ways to possibly read the code would be to: 1) Try to burn in the extra code into the device to be able to initiate = the clocking out of the code. This would be 1 in a million chance that = the addresses required as still erased. 2) Trial and error with some circuitry to guess each location of the = eprom and monitor the reading from the eprom until the verify LED comes = on. The circuit would have to act as an erased eprom for the first read = of each address (this would leave the content of the chip intact during = first read), and for the verify guess each address' data and monitor the = verify cycle. This may not even be possible depending on how the verify = works.=20 This is all from memory about five years back, so apologies if it is = inaccurate. Regards Tim WIllis. If my mail program truncates lines let me know and I'll fix the problem. - -----Original Message----- From: K PILLAY : STUDENT [SMTP:PILLAYK7@xxx.za] Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 1997 8:27 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: 68705 r3cs=20 Does anybody know how to read the code off the eprom on this chip ? i.e. I have the circuit to program the device but how do you read the=20 stored info to modify and re-store. 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Now ( if nothing is wrong again >with my provider ) you can find there the O2 meter schemtics. >I'm waiting for comments , Alex >http://home.onestop.net/nalex Alex, very interesting page .... good work ! Only one (negative) observation .... on your EGO meter, you suggest that maybe others should try a dual op-amp -- note that only the 324 (AFAIK) allows common mode voltages near either rail -- and the EGO output is within a few hundred millivolts of ground. A standard op-amp would work okay if a negative supply were provided for it. Tom Cloud .... why did Kamikaze pilots wear helmets ? ------------------------------ From: Jason Lewis Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:30:17 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: efi user interface David, On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, David Chambers wrote: > Hi, I am in the process of trying to write a user interface to my home > made efi system and am wondering if anyone knows of an easy to use set > of graphing routines for C. > I would like to be able to draw 2D and 3D graphs and then have the user > interact with the graph to change the injection times etc. > Any info on free software or cheap would be much appreciated. > David Chambers > You don't specify what the target system is for the 2D and 3D graphs. Are you going to be drawing them on your little EFI controller? Or are you drawing them on your pc to work out the lookup tables, and then putting the data into the EFI computer? (or something else that i haven't thought of?) If your doing it on a PC, try Excel, it has the ability to let you move the points on a graph, and it will adjust the data in the tables that the graph was drawn from. Jason ------------------------------ From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:43:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: wicked squeaks, possibly TPEFI related I've got a weird one here. Every one I've asked so far has been stomped. I drove my '89 5.7L TPI '58 chevy truck to Atlanta last weekend, 100mph plus...420 miles one way from my home...so I'm perty sure it's not a mechanical engine noise. The following is what I know. I think it's the EGR valve or diaphragm resonating. When the engine is hot (just after getting off the highway) I get this high pitch squeaking sound. Sounds like a belt but much louder. I can hear it 100 yards off. Changed the belt, operated the engine with the belt off, added many cans of belt dressing, and the engine still squeaks. Swapped trannys and inspected the flywheel. Flywheel a-ok, still got the squeaks. Check this out, I can pull the engine oil dip stick when it's squeaking and magicly, it stops. That's why I think it might be EGR related. The EGR valve vacuume line is disconnected. The truck stumbles bad when it's connected. I suspect the diaphram is leaking. I can't pull vacuume in it if the engine is running. Pulls ok when the engine is off. By now, I'm desperate to stop this damn squeaking so I connected a vacuume gage to the engine dip stick tube to see why it would affect the engine squeak. Here is what I found. 9.5" engine idle, park, no squeak 11.5" engine idle, Drive, light squeak 13.0" engine idle, park, Loud squeak 9.5" engine idle, park, no squeak, after pulling the engine dip stick to 'break vacuume' 9.5" engine idle, park, no squeak 11.5" engine idle, Drive, light squeak 13.0" engine idle, park, Loud squeak 9.5" engine idle, park, no squeak, after winging the throttle and reving engine to ~3,000rpm quickly Manifold vauume was 18" - 18.5" at idle and 17" in gear. What ever is causing the squeak is definitly vacumme related. I checked both PVC vales, clean as a wistle and free. The evidence suggest that there is a ported vacuume leak from the manifold to the crankcase and that the vacuume is held untill you pull the dip stick or kill the motor. I have all but given up on finding the root cause of this irritating noise. If you guys don't give a solution, I will be forced to treat the symptom rather than solve the problem. I'll install a vacuume breaker that relieves crankcase vacuume at 10" If it turns out that this is not EFI related, feel free to E-mail me personally...somebody somewhere has had this problem or is having it. thanks in advance for any solution offered, GMD "Irritating sounds and actions can drive a man to do insane things" George M. Dailey gmd@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Mario Tito Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:53:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Spark timing,points/Hall effect > >It took me a while to think this one up, but given enough >time I might be able to come up with something:-) What's >the question? > >Jim Boughton >boughton@xxx.net I have a question in stock spark timing. Looking through the Bently manual for my 2.0L VW air-cooled, compression 8.5:1, 125psi(looks low, compared to others on the list), and there are a few different distributors over the years of engine changes, like size change, different enviroment laws, etc., with different advance curves, and idle timing, which all make some sense. BUT in the California engine, they used a Hall effect sensor ignition, the ignition timing was changed, what seems to me, drastically. My point- and-condenser system works best at stock 7.5deg BTDC at idle, ported vacuum advance (I'm not sure of this term- the vacuum port is blocked by the throttle plate at idle position, and uncovers just off idle. Right?). The earliest timing at WOT (no vacuum), 3400 RPM, is 28-32 degrees BTDC. Ported vacuum starts at 80-130 mmHg, ends at 200mmHg, advancing 8.5-11 deg. The Hall Effect Ignition is set at 5 deg ATDC at idle, with vacuum advance and retard diaphrams. Total advance at WOT (no vacuum), at 3600 RPM is only 16-20 degees BTDC. The Bently manual is suprisingly lacking in where these vacuum signals come from. But WOT has no vacuum, right? Vacuum advance and retard both start at 60-120mmHg, ends at 240mmHg, and both change timing 11-13 deg. The Advance has a 'cut- off' which enables it only in fourth gear or if air temp is below 54F. This cut- off system is described only in the older dual- vacuum point system, but I guess it applies to this as well. The year prior to mine, with points and two vacuum chambers, is roughly the same as the Hall- Effect system. Does anyone have a clue as to why in a mostly equal engines (the cali does have a cat converter), this difference exists? Am I missing something? Perhaps a discussion will help Tom C. as well. Thanks Mario T. mailto:Freshmar@xxx.com-----'76 VW Camper FI A/T,,'79 Fiat X1/9 ------------------------------ From: Orin Eman Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:44:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: wicked squeaks, possibly TPEFI related > Check this out, I can pull the engine oil dip stick when it's squeaking and > magicly, it stops. That's why I think it might be EGR related. The EGR valve > vacuume line is disconnected. The truck stumbles bad when it's connected. I > suspect the diaphram is leaking. I can't pull vacuume in it if the engine is > running. Pulls ok when the engine is off. Crank seal(s)? If they deteriorate, it pulls air past them and squeaks... until you pull the dip stick. Orin. ------------------------------ From: "Rob Lloyd" Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:06:24 +0100 Subject: Anyone know... ...If the engine in the Ford Probe GT (93-97) is the same basic engine as whats in the Contour and Mystique now? I am pretty sure that the engine is the same, but the intake manifolds and the ECUs are different. I know the ECU in the Probe is a Denso unit, while the ECU in the Contour is Ford (EEC-IV???) I have an article from a British magazine called Race Tech. It has an article on the Mondeo BTCC engine (Prepped by Cosworth). It is definitley the same block and heads as the Probe. Do the Mondeo and Contour have the same engine? I was interested in the extra 10 horsepower and in the 196hp of the SVT (versus 164 for the Probe :( ) and thinking about adapting the Contour's sytem to the Probe... Thanks Rob Lloyd ------------------------------ From: "Shannen Durphey" Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 12:54:51 -1000 (HST) Subject: Re: wicked squeaks, possibly TPEFI related - ---------- > I've got a weird one here. Every one I've asked so far has been stomped. I > drove my '89 5.7L TPI '58 chevy truck to Atlanta last weekend, 100mph > plus...420 miles one way from my home...so I'm perty sure it's not a > mechanical engine noise. The following is what I know. I think it's the EGR > valve or diaphragm resonating. > > When the engine is hot (just after getting off the highway) I get this high > pitch squeaking sound. Sounds like a belt but much louder. I can hear it 100 > yards off. Changed the belt, operated the engine with the belt off, added > many cans of belt dressing, and the engine still squeaks. > > Swapped trannys and inspected the flywheel. Flywheel a-ok, still got the > squeaks. > > Check this out, I can pull the engine oil dip stick when it's squeaking and > magicly, it stops. That's why I think it might be EGR related. The EGR valve > vacuume line is disconnected. The truck stumbles bad when it's connected. I > suspect the diaphram is leaking. I can't pull vacuume in it if the engine is > running. Pulls ok when the engine is off. > > By now, I'm desperate to stop this damn squeaking so I connected a vacuume > gage to the engine dip stick tube to see why it would affect the engine > squeak. Here is what I found. > > 9.5" engine idle, park, no squeak > 11.5" engine idle, Drive, light squeak > 13.0" engine idle, park, Loud squeak > 9.5" engine idle, park, no squeak, after pulling the engine dip stick to > 'break vacuume' > > 9.5" engine idle, park, no squeak > 11.5" engine idle, Drive, light squeak > 13.0" engine idle, park, Loud squeak > 9.5" engine idle, park, no squeak, after winging the throttle and reving > engine to ~3,000rpm quickly > > Manifold vauume was 18" - 18.5" at idle and 17" in gear. > > What ever is causing the squeak is definitly vacumme related. I checked both > PVC vales, clean as a wistle and free. The evidence suggest that there is a > ported vacuume leak from the manifold to the crankcase and that the vacuume > is held untill you pull the dip stick or kill the motor. I have all but > given up on finding the root cause of this irritating noise. If you guys > don't give a solution, I will be forced to treat the symptom rather than > solve the problem. I'll install a vacuume breaker that relieves crankcase > vacuume at 10" If it turns out that this is not EFI related, feel free to > E-mail me personally...somebody somewhere has had this problem or is having > it. > > thanks in advance for any solution offered, > GMD > > "Irritating sounds and actions can drive a man to do insane things" > George M. Dailey > gmd@xxx.com > > Sounds like you're developing vacuum in your crankcase, which is a no-no. You said that you checked BOTH pcv valves, but the crankcase ventilation system is designed to have ONE pcv valve and one vent tube to the filtered side of the intake line. Try removing one pcv valve from the valve cover while the engine is running. If the squeak dissappears, vent your crankcase and remove the redundant valve. ------------------------------ From: "Christopher G. Moog" Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:02:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Anyone know... Rob Lloyd wrote: > ...If the engine in the Ford Probe GT (93-97) is the same basic engine as > whats in the Contour and Mystique now? I am pretty sure that the engine is Modeo is Ford Duratec engine, Probe is Mazda Engine. Same displacement but I believe totally different engines. Ford Bore stroke is 3.2447 X 3.1299 Mazda is 3.33 X 2.92 Chris ------------------------------ From: Tom Cloud Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 14:14:32 -0500 Subject: Re: wicked squeaks, possibly TPEFI related > >> Check this out, I can pull the engine oil dip stick when it's squeaking and >> magicly, it stops. That's why I think it might be EGR related. The EGR valve >> vacuume line is disconnected. The truck stumbles bad when it's connected. I >> suspect the diaphram is leaking. I can't pull vacuume in it if the engine is >> running. Pulls ok when the engine is off. > >Crank seal(s)? If they deteriorate, it pulls air past them and squeaks... >until you pull the dip stick. > >Orin. is this a "whistle" rather than a "squeak" ?? Tom Cloud .... why did Kamikaze pilots wear helmets ? ------------------------------ From: Kevin Crain Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 16:05:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Muscle Car Fuel Injection Is there a relatively painless path from CFI to port injection, letting me keep the factory wiring and sensors? Seems like it's got a usable sensor package with O2, temp, knock, MAP, etc. - -Kevin On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, Gary Derian wrote: > The Corvettes ran poorly due to vacuum leaks and a very large wetted > manifold surface. Large cool wetted surfaces accumulate fuel on their walls > at low vacuum (opening the throttle). This fuel then vaporizes at high > vacuum (closing the throttle) and causes a large hydrocarbon spike in the > exhaust. That is why the crossfire Corvette and Camaro was available only > with an automatic transmission. Also, fuel mixture distribution tends to be > poor. Use port injection and design your intake manifold to flow dry air. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Tholey > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> > Date: Monday, September 15, 1997 5:18 PM > Subject: Muscle Car Fuel Injection > > > > >I have subscribed to the efi listserv and have found little mention of > >muscle car fuel injection. I am trying to design fuel injection for a 1971 > >Duster. The engine is a 360. I am working on designing a cross ram > >injection using a custom made sheet metal intake manifold. > > I am in the beginning stages of this design. The Corvette cross > >fire injection was my inspiration for this. The small block chevy and > mopar > >both have the same firing order so I was contemplating using a cross fire > >computer. I have found that most of these cross fire cars ran poorly. > Does > >anyone know why? Should I gear my design away from a throttle body? I > >would like to. > > I am intimidated by most of the postings. If anyone is > >compassionate enough to lend some guidance I would love to return the > favor. > >I am capable of creating any custom sheet metal style aluminum intake > manifolds. > > > ------------------------------ From: Matt Sale Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:57:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Muscle Car Fuel Injection Check into the Edelbrock TBI to TPI system. Don't know if it will work with the CFI computer, but they respond well to email. You can find it on their web site http://www.edelbrock.com/ > > Is there a relatively painless path from CFI to port injection, letting me > keep the factory wiring and sensors? Seems like it's got a usable sensor > package with O2, temp, knock, MAP, etc. > > -Kevin > > On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, Gary Derian wrote: > > > The Corvettes ran poorly due to vacuum leaks and a very large wetted - -- Matthew D. Sale, IC Development Engineer, Delco Electronics Corp. msale@xxx.net/~msale '69 Mustang 351W 5-spd (13.464@xxx. All responses are my own and should not be mistaken for those of Delco Electronics or General Motors. ------------------------------ From: "Stefan Olsson" Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:04:24 +0200 Subject: Electric turbo Hi all Have any one seen the electrical turbo that Grand Technology are selling in USA ? Have some one tested it ? Best Regards Stefan ------------------------------ From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:50:26 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: wicked squeaks, possibly TPEFI related Dope!! When I got this engine out of the '89 Formula one Fire bird, it had two PVC valve looking things in the valve covers. I broke one while installing the motor and assumed it was a PVC valve and replaced it with one identical to the remaining valve. If you are sure this is not a negative pressure crankcase, this must be the problem. A bright ray of sun light shines on my bald spot, but it begins to dim! I used all of the original air ducting and air cleaners from the Fire Bird. There are no "before MAF connections", that I'm aware of on this setup, that could serve as an engine vent. My 3.8PFI set up does have one after the MAF and no PVC at all. Presently, I have the driver side PVC valve connected to the fitting at the base of the TPI manifold also on the driver side. The passenger side valve is connected to the fitting at the back driver side of the plenum. Since a negative pressure crankcase is a no no, I will remove the second PVC valve and add a vent with it's own filter. I hate to imagine the damage I've done to the seals and sealing surfaces not to mention the dirt that has been ingested. Thanks to all that responded. GMD I was begining to think that this motor was the most leak free I had ever owned! Oil can't leak out of a vessel under vacuume. At 12:54 PM 9/17/97 -1000, you wrote: > > >---------- >> I've got a weird one here. Every one I've asked so far has been stomped. I >> drove my '89 5.7L TPI '58 chevy truck to Atlanta last weekend, 100mph >> plus...420 miles one way from my home...so I'm perty sure it's not a >> mechanical engine noise. The following is what I know. I think it's the >EGR >> valve or diaphragm resonating. >Sounds like you're developing vacuum in your crankcase, which is a no-no. >You said that you checked BOTH pcv valves, but the crankcase ventilation >system is designed to have ONE pcv valve and one vent tube to the filtered >side of the intake line. Try removing one pcv valve from the valve cover >while the engine is running. If the squeak dissappears, vent your >crankcase and remove the redundant valve. George M. Dailey gmd@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:50:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: wicked squeaks, possibly TPEFI related Yes, a very high pitched wistle that wobbles in frequency. imagine a squeak every halfe second. Extreemely irritating. GMD At 02:14 PM 9/17/97 -0500, you wrote: >> >>> Check this out, I can pull the engine oil dip stick when it's squeaking and >>> magicly, it stops. That's why I think it might be EGR related. The EGR valve >>> vacuume line is disconnected. The truck stumbles bad when it's connected. I >>> suspect the diaphram is leaking. I can't pull vacuume in it if the engine is >>> running. Pulls ok when the engine is off. >> >>Crank seal(s)? If they deteriorate, it pulls air past them and squeaks... >>until you pull the dip stick. >> >>Orin. > >is this a "whistle" rather than a "squeak" ?? > >Tom Cloud > > .... why did Kamikaze pilots wear helmets ? > > George M. Dailey gmd@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Joe Boucher Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:54:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Holley ECM replacement [snip] > > >If you are a running GM map system I have a circuit that comps for >almost any cam combo. > >Steve >-- > > ----|------||------|---- > --|------[]------|-- > 0/ \0 > > > >www.flash.net/~swagaero > I would love a copy of that!! Please, please! I want to put EFI on my Camaro. Joe Boucher '81 TBI Suburban '70 RS/SS Camaro ------------------------------ From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 17:11:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Measuring dynamic cylinder pressure Has anyone ever installed a pressure transducer in the spark plug hole and run the engine with that cylinder's spark and fuel injector disabled? High speed data acquisition would be required, but it would allow one to measure the effects of various mods (cam, intake, exhaust, boost, etc). Higher pressure would indicate better cylinder filling, although some temperature compensation would probably be required. The max pressure for a non-firing cylinder is 120 to 200 psi, well within the range of reasonably priced transducers. Bryan Zublin bzublin@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Paul Ruschman Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 17:37:10 -0700 Subject: RE Volvo K-jet... I would like to thank everybody for their support as I did locate the = prob. As I was peering under the hood one particularly brisk morning = with my trusty FLUKE 87 in hand ready to test the Cold Start Injector = wiring, I noticed it was UNPLUGGED! Well, I plugged it in, and fired it = up. Has been starting perfectly ever since. Thank You, Paul (If it don't work, plug it in and then try it..) Ruschman http://www.datsuns.com/cars/paulr.htm ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 20:33:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Spark timing,points/Hall effect You answered your own question. The California engine has a catalytic converter. The dual diaphragm Bosch distributors used ported vacuum for the advance but manifold vacuum for the retard. At idle, the distributor is in full retard. At cruise, the retard diaphragm has no effect because its function is to move the zero vacuum stop in the vacuum can assembly towards the retard side. When there is vacuum pulling some advance, the position of the stop does not affect the advance. When there is no vacuum advance (idle) moving the stop does provide more retard. Non catalytic cars had retarded spark and very lean mixture to get low emissions. When a catalyst was added, emissions were even lower and the engine could be tuned for efficiency. Gary Derian - ---------- > From: Mario Tito > To: fi discuss 2 > Subject: Spark timing,points/Hall effect > Date: Wednesday, 17 September, 1997 12:53 PM > > > I have a question in stock spark timing. Looking through the Bently > manual for my 2.0L VW air-cooled, compression 8.5:1, 125psi(looks low, > compared to others on the list), and there are a few different > distributors over the years of engine changes, like size change, > different enviroment laws, etc., with different advance curves, and idle > timing, which all make some sense. BUT in the California engine, they > used a Hall effect sensor ignition, the ignition timing was changed, what > seems to me, drastically. My point- and-condenser system works best at > stock 7.5deg BTDC at idle, ported vacuum advance (I'm not sure of this > term- the vacuum port is blocked by the throttle plate at idle position, > and uncovers just off idle. Right?). The earliest timing at WOT (no > vacuum), 3400 RPM, is 28-32 degrees BTDC. Ported vacuum starts at 80-130 > mmHg, ends at 200mmHg, advancing 8.5-11 deg. > The Hall Effect Ignition is set at 5 deg ATDC at idle, with vacuum > advance and retard diaphrams. Total advance at WOT (no vacuum), at 3600 > RPM is only 16-20 degees BTDC. The Bently manual is suprisingly lacking > in where these vacuum signals come from. But WOT has no vacuum, right? > Vacuum advance and retard both start at 60-120mmHg, ends at 240mmHg, and > both change timing 11-13 deg. The Advance has a 'cut- off' which enables > it only in fourth gear or if air temp is below 54F. This cut- off system > is described only in the older dual- vacuum point system, but I guess it > applies to this as well. > The year prior to mine, with points and two vacuum chambers, is > roughly the same as the Hall- Effect system. > Does anyone have a clue as to why in a mostly equal engines (the cali > does have a cat converter), this difference exists? Am I missing > something? > Perhaps a discussion will help Tom C. as well. > Thanks > > Mario T. > mailto:Freshmar@xxx.com-----'76 VW Camper FI A/T,,'79 Fiat X1/9 ------------------------------ From: clsnyde@xxx.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 01:05:19 GMT Subject: Re: wicked squeaks, possibly TPEFI related >I've got a weird one here. Every one I've asked so far has been stomped. I >drove my '89 5.7L TPI '58 chevy truck to Atlanta last weekend, 100mph >plus...420 miles one way from my home...so I'm perty sure it's not a >mechanical engine noise. The following is what I know. I think it's the EGR >valve or diaphragm resonating. > >When the engine is hot (just after getting off the highway) I get this high >pitch squeaking sound. Sounds like a belt but much louder. I can hear it 100 >yards off. Changed the belt, operated the engine with the belt off, added >many cans of belt dressing, and the engine still squeaks. > >Swapped trannys and inspected the flywheel. Flywheel a-ok, still got the >squeaks. > >Check this out, I can pull the engine oil dip stick when it's squeaking and >magicly, it stops. That's why I think it might be EGR related. The EGR valve >vacuume line is disconnected. The truck stumbles bad when it's connected. I >suspect the diaphram is leaking. I can't pull vacuume in it if the engine is >running. Pulls ok when the engine is off. > >By now, I'm desperate to stop this damn squeaking so I connected a vacuume >gage to the engine dip stick tube to see why it would affect the engine >squeak. Here is what I found. > >9.5" engine idle, park, no squeak >11.5" engine idle, Drive, light squeak >13.0" engine idle, park, Loud squeak >9.5" engine idle, park, no squeak, after pulling the engine dip stick to >'break vacuume' > >9.5" engine idle, park, no squeak >11.5" engine idle, Drive, light squeak >13.0" engine idle, park, Loud squeak >9.5" engine idle, park, no squeak, after winging the throttle and reving >engine to ~3,000rpm quickly > >Manifold vauume was 18" - 18.5" at idle and 17" in gear. > >What ever is causing the squeak is definitly vacumme related. I checked both >PVC vales, clean as a wistle and free. The evidence suggest that there is a >ported vacuume leak from the manifold to the crankcase and that the vacuume >is held untill you pull the dip stick or kill the motor. I have all but >given up on finding the root cause of this irritating noise. If you guys >don't give a solution, I will be forced to treat the symptom rather than >solve the problem. I'll install a vacuume breaker that relieves crankcase >vacuume at 10" If it turns out that this is not EFI related, feel free to >E-mail me personally...somebody somewhere has had this problem or is having it. > >thanks in advance for any solution offered, >GMD > >"Irritating sounds and actions can drive a man to do insane things" >George M. Dailey >gmd@xxx.com > > Sounds to me like you have an intake manifold leak, drawing into the crankcase. This is applying a vacuum to the crankcase, and the leak makes EGR unuseable due to over-lean mixture. Just a (somewhat educated) guess, but if you have pulled the tranny, the intake should be a cinch. Before going this far, however, check your crankcase ventilation (PCV) system. ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #324 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. 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