DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, 18 September 1997 Volume 02 : Number 325 In this issue: Fee ? RE: ECU Software Re: Muscle Car Fuel Injection 5th injector circuit (fuel or water) Re: Measuring dynamic cylinder pressure Re: Measuring dynamic cylinder pressure 5th Injector circuit Re: Fee ? Re: Measuring dynamic cylinder pressure Re: Injector"spray"vs.evaporation 5th Injector Circuit Re: A/F Meter readings Re: free energy machines Re: O2 schematics again Re: wicked squeaks, possibly TPEFI related Re: DIY_EFI Digest V2 #324 Re: Injector"spray"vs.evaporation AW: knock knock See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jennifer Rose Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:17:38 -0700 Subject: Fee ? Hi Steve How much of a fee did ya have in mind? Vance ------------------------------ From: John Hess Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 20:18:11 -0500 Subject: RE: ECU Software Try: The Turbo Shop 1280 Kona Drive Compton, CA 90220 (310) 669-8101 > ---------- > From: APE[SMTP:GoAPE@xxx.net] > Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 1997 4:29 AM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: ECU Software > > List members, > > I am looking to purchase software to re-program the GM ECU in late > model > (94-97) LT1 equipped Camaro's & Firebirds. > > There have been rumors of competed packages out there, but nothing > finished as of yet. > > And please refrain from telling me to call Hypertech for a power > programmer. > > Thanks, > > Matt > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > AUBURN PERFORMANCE EQUIPMENT - Your Supercharging and EFI > high performance shop! > UNBEATABLE prices on Superchargers from Vortech, Powerdyne, & ATI > > ORDER ONLY LINE 1-800-858-0070 > 24 hr FAX LINE (508)832-9566 > TECHNICAL QUESTION LINE (508)832-6765 > > WEBSITE & ON-LINE CATALOG: http://www.tiac.net/users/goape/index.htm > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ------------------------------ From: swagaero Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:30:00 -0700 Subject: Re: Muscle Car Fuel Injection Matt Sale wrote: > > Check into the Edelbrock TBI to TPI system. Don't know if it will > work with the CFI computer, but they respond well to email. You > can find it on their web site http://www.edelbrock.com/ > > > > > Is there a relatively painless path from CFI to port injection, letting me > > keep the factory wiring and sensors? Seems like it's got a usable sensor > > package with O2, temp, knock, MAP, etc. > > > > -Kevin > > > > On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, Gary Derian wrote: > > > > > The Corvettes ran poorly due to vacuum leaks and a very large wetted > -- > Matthew D. Sale, IC Development Engineer, Delco Electronics Corp. > msale@xxx.net/~msale > '69 Mustang 351W 5-spd (13.464@xxx. > > All responses are my own and should not be mistaken > for those of Delco Electronics or General Motors. use the edlebrock TPI manifold with a modified Corvette ecm nice manifold large Airbody 4 port 1 injector per port Steve - -- ----|------||------|---- --|------[]------|-- 0/ \0 www.flash.net/~swagaero ------------------------------ From: Simon Quested Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:29:17 +1200 Subject: 5th injector circuit (fuel or water) Hi All I sent this on tuesday but it didn't seem to get through... the word doc is 35K maybe I typed to much and went over the 40K limit, I will send the circuit diagram separately. I would appreciate it if you guys could have a look at it and pick any faults before I prototype it. This is how it should work...... I hope =-) Map output feeds into OA 1 & 2, this is the voltage to pulse width converter part of the circuit (from the op amp cookbook), as map voltage increases injector on time increases. The 555 sets up the trigger pulse for the voltage to pulse width converter. OA 3 sets the threshold voltage from the map sensor. OA 4 does the same for the O2 sensor. The 3 input and gate ensures that the 5th injector will only come on when 1) map voltage is higher than the set threshold voltage 2) O2 voltage is lower than the set threshold voltage. This should mean that the 5th injector will only come on under boost and when the mixture is starting to lean out. I'd like to use the same idea for the water injection minus the O2 sensor. What should I use for Q2 I was thinking a big power transistor, can anyone tell me either the part no. of any injector drivers or where I fond some data on them. What base freq. do injectors run? Please feel free to use/modify my circuit for personal use and if you make it better I'd like to see the changes. I think that between all of us we should be able to make a good simple 5th injector system. Cheers Simon PS before you mail me saying I didn't attach the circuit I mailed it by it's self +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Simon Quested (E-mail questeds@xxx.nz) Computer Technician, Silicon Graphics & Windows NT Support Centre for Computing and Biometrics LINCOLN UNIVERSITY OF NEW ZEALAND Phone (64)(03) 3252811 Ext. 8087 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ http://www.lincoln.ac.nz/ccb/techs/simon/default.htm +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Some people can tell what time it is by looking at the sun. But I have never been able to make out the numbers. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ From: "Shannen Durphey" Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 21:11:50 -1000 (HST) Subject: Re: Measuring dynamic cylinder pressure - ---------- > > > Has anyone ever installed a pressure transducer in the spark plug hole and > run the engine with that cylinder's spark and fuel injector disabled? High > speed data acquisition would be required, but it would allow one to measure > the effects of various mods (cam, intake, exhaust, boost, etc). Higher > pressure would indicate better cylinder filling, although some temperature > compensation would probably be required. The max pressure for a non-firing > cylinder is 120 to 200 psi, well within the range of reasonably priced > transducers. > > Bryan Zublin > bzublin@xxx.com > Wouldn't it be easier to use a compression gauge? after all, all the other changes (cam, intake, headers, etc.) will be hands-on, nuts&bolts changes. Couldn't be that much more time to install the gauge. Also.. headers, cams, and intakes often make more difference at higher rpm. More cranking pressure usually indicates indicates more efficient low rpm airflow or sometimes more advanced camshaft timing. Neither of these indicate better airflow at higher engine speed. Maybe heat sensors mounted in the exhaust ports, to indicate cumbustion efficiency, would be more accurate. ------------------------------ From: "Shannen Durphey" Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 21:23:04 -1000 (HST) Subject: Re: Measuring dynamic cylinder pressure - ---------- > > > Has anyone ever installed a pressure transducer in the spark plug hole and > run the engine with that cylinder's spark and fuel injector disabled? High > speed data acquisition would be required, but it would allow one to measure > the effects of various mods (cam, intake, exhaust, boost, etc). Higher > pressure would indicate better cylinder filling, although some temperature > compensation would probably be required. The max pressure for a non-firing > cylinder is 120 to 200 psi, well within the range of reasonably priced > transducers. > > Bryan Zublin > bzublin@xxx.com > Since thermodynamics play such a large role in gas flow, would you be getting an accurate measurement? How about temperature sensors mounted in the exhaust/headers at each cylinder? They might indicate combustion efficiency. Hotter gasses=more power. I know that cranking compression readings are in no way indicative of performance level. The only general rule that seems to apply is the longer the stroke, the higher cranking compression. ------------------------------ From: Simon Quested Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:10:45 +1200 Subject: 5th Injector circuit Hi All Well It looks like I can't post my word doc to the list if you are interested mail me and I'll send it to you. Cheers Simon +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Simon Quested (E-mail questeds@xxx.nz) Computer Technician, Silicon Graphics & Windows NT Support Centre for Computing and Biometrics LINCOLN UNIVERSITY OF NEW ZEALAND Phone (64)(03) 3252811 Ext. 8087 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ http://www.lincoln.ac.nz/ccb/techs/simon/default.htm +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Some people can tell what time it is by looking at the sun. But I have never been able to make out the numbers. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ From: swagaero Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 20:20:13 -0700 Subject: Re: Fee ? Jennifer Rose wrote: > > Hi Steve > > How much of a fee did ya have in mind? > > Vance Let me think about that - -- ----|------||------|---- --|------[]------|-- 0/ \0 www.flash.net/~swagaero ------------------------------ From: eric schumacher Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:01:13 -0700 Subject: Re: Measuring dynamic cylinder pressure Hi Brian No I haven't but you can use a scope to handle speedy conversion and Tektronix used to have them in their catalog. The spark plug sensors that is. At 12:11 AM 9/18/97 +0000, you wrote: > >Has anyone ever installed a pressure transducer in the spark plug hole and >run the engine with that cylinder's spark and fuel injector disabled? High Lotsa Luck Eric 85 GTI with VR6 power ------------------------------ From: Brian Knowles Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 21:07:56 -0700 Subject: Re: Injector"spray"vs.evaporation >> A number of years ago, I read about a "Hot Vapor" engine >> that Smokey Yunick designed and developed with the intent of selling to the >> auto companies (none of them bit though - pity). This system ran the >> air/fuel mixture through a manifold that circulated the engine water around >> the charge and then passed the charge to another manifold that the exhaust >> system ran around (can you say _dangerous_ here) and then dumped the charge >> into the cylinders though a carb. The mixture was around 400 to 500 degrees >> F when entered into the chamber and fully atomized. He was getting (if my >> feeble memory serves me correctly) about (150 HP and 50 mpg) > >( three-cylinder sprint engine.) > >is there any thing in print of how he did this?? > Obviousy, he didn't. They hadn't even invented the Suziki/Geo engine when Smokey was tinkering with his "hot vapor engine". I have no idea what engine he was using, it was 'bout 20 years befor the Geo engine was invented. Brian ------------------------------ From: Simon Quested Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:59:37 +1200 Subject: 5th Injector Circuit Hi All I'm not in tomorrow but I have put my 5th injector circuit on my home page. Cheers Simon +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Simon Quested (E-mail questeds@xxx.nz) Computer Technician, Silicon Graphics & Windows NT Support Centre for Computing and Biometrics LINCOLN UNIVERSITY OF NEW ZEALAND Phone (64)(03) 3252811 Ext. 8087 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ http://www.lincoln.ac.nz/ccb/techs/simon/default.htm +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Some people can tell what time it is by looking at the sun. But I have never been able to make out the numbers. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ From: Thor Johnson Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 00:21:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: A/F Meter readings On Sun, 14 Sep 1997, John O Hornfeck wrote: > Drove the car again today. The A/F meter stopped functioning after > 15 min of 70mph. Used my multi meter at the Ox port and there was 0 > volts. Drove the car another 10 min and the gauge began functioning and > the Ox port was reading normally 0-.5 volts. I have heard ofheating causing a short/open... to find out, my book recommends that you take to O2 sensor and stick the sensing part in the flame of a blowtorch.... dunno, but this gave me *some* readings on my unheated varieties (could event tell what was rich/lean in a flame ;), and didn't seem to hurt them, except for killing the antisieze on the threads. Thor Johnson johnsont@xxx.edu http://falcon.cs.mercer.edu/~johnsont Have you seen the WarpMap lately? http://falcon.cs.mercer.edu/~johnsont/warpmap ------------------------------ From: Craig Pugsley Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:37:44 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: free energy machines > P.S. > and if you are into "You won't believe what you read" > then check out > http://rand.nidlink.com/~john1/foreward.html > this guy tells about a DC electric motor turning a generator > that puts out more than it consumes so charges the battery > it runs off. Aah, what a laugh.. I think it's extremely amusing the way they try to use scientific terms to describe something that can't work.. "But it does, if you only look at the time it's generating power". I wonder what would happen if you connect the generator to the motor to get rid of the inefficiencies of the battery.. but I forgot the oil companies buy these guys out, just like they did with 200MPG carburettors ;-) Anyway, a fun lunch time read! Cheers, Craig. www.3rotor.com/rotary ------------------------------ From: Brian Knowles Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 21:25:27 -0700 Subject: Re: O2 schematics again > .... why did Kamikaze pilots wear helmets ? > As a matter of fact, I don't believe they did.... Brian ------------------------------ From: "Shannen Durphey" Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 23:00:59 -1000 (HST) Subject: Re: wicked squeaks, possibly TPEFI related > I used all of the original air ducting and air cleaners from the Fire Bird. > There are no "before MAF connections", that I'm aware of on this setup, that > could serve as an engine vent. My 3.8PFI set up does have one after the MAF > and no PVC at all. > > Presently, I have the driver side PVC valve connected to the fitting at the > base of the TPI manifold also on the driver side. The passenger side valve > is connected to the fitting at the back driver side of the plenum. > > Since a negative pressure crankcase is a no no, I will remove the second PVC > valve and add a vent with it's own filter. I hate to imagine the damage I've > done to the seals and sealing surfaces not to mention the dirt that has been > ingested. > You got me curious, so I looked in the book. The Right Hand vent connects to a fitting in the throttle body behind or around the TPS. The fitting at the rear of the engine is for power brakes. ------------------------------ From: Jake Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:59:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V2 #324 > http://rand.nidlink.com/~john1/foreward.html > this guy tells about a DC electric motor turning a generator > that puts out more than it consumes so charges the battery > it runs off. > Dean. that reminds me of an article on how to convert your car to "water fuel" you fill a tank in the trunk with water, connect electrodes through a switch to your battery, and duct the hydrogen/oxygen gases produced by electrolysis to the air cleaner; the carb acts as a throttle body. He says "the running of the engine will recharge the battery, which supplies the current for the electrolysis.. this is called 'activation energy'" but he doesn't mention how he circumvented that pesky clause of thermodynamic law #1, conservation of energy. he does however go into great detail of the effects of burning hydrogen on his valves, i.e. rust, and other details i have to wonder how he knew would be the case. i still have his address and plan to question him. > I've got a weird one here. Every one I've asked so far has been stomped. I > drove my '89 5.7L TPI '58 chevy truck to Atlanta last weekend, 100mph > plus...420 miles one way from my home...so I'm perty sure it's not a > mechanical engine noise. The following is what I know. I think it's the EGR > valve or diaphragm resonating. whoa.. they had EFI in 1957? > When the engine is hot (just after getting off the highway) I get this high > pitch squeaking sound. Sounds like a belt but much louder. I can hear it 100 > yards off. Changed the belt, operated the engine with the belt off, added > many cans of belt dressing, and the engine still squeaks. have you checked the power brake servo, if you have one? Vacuum causes a loud high-pitched squeak in those bastards if they have a hole. A girl i knew told me that her mechanic had informed her that "she had a pinhole in her diaphragm" and then told the rest of the story. Basically, a high-pitched very annoying whistle was present whenever her foot was not on the brake pedal. it's worth a look, let me know if i was right. > timing, which all make some sense. BUT in the California engine, they > used a Hall effect sensor ignition, the ignition timing was changed, what > seems to me, drastically. My point- and-condenser system works best at > stock 7.5deg BTDC at idle, ported vacuum advance (I'm not sure of this > term- the vacuum port is blocked by the throttle plate at idle position, > and uncovers just off idle. Right?). The earliest timing at WOT (no right.. ported vacuum also purges the charcoal cannister. > The Hall Effect Ignition is set at 5 deg ATDC at idle, with vacuum > RPM is only 16-20 degees BTDC. The Bently manual is suprisingly lacking > Does anyone have a clue as to why in a mostly equal engines (the cali > does have a cat converter), this difference exists? Am I missing > something? > > Mario T. > mailto:Freshmar@xxx.com-----'76 VW Camper FI A/T,,'79 Fiat X1/9 the stock manuals never list CAMSHAFT TIMING, that is, the fact that most emissions-compliant factory engines ship the camshaft a few gear teeth off of what is normally considered "lined up" and this is hardly ever documented. Thats what I would expect to be the reason for the california timing difference. It's not surprising considering how difficult (impossible?) it is to make an air-cooled engine comply these days. > Has anyone ever installed a pressure transducer in the spark plug hole and > run the engine with that cylinder's spark and fuel injector disabled? High > speed data acquisition would be required, but it would allow one to measure > the effects of various mods (cam, intake, exhaust, boost, etc). Higher > pressure would indicate better cylinder filling, although some temperature > compensation would probably be required. The max pressure for a non-firing > cylinder is 120 to 200 psi, well within the range of reasonably priced > transducers. > > Bryan Zublin > bzublin@xxx.com wow.. i was wondering what to do with that 0-2000 PSI transducer i picked up at a hamfest. good idea! I think it would be more interesting to stick a different type of transducer on the block though, rather than in the cylinder.. i want to plant a microphone-like device on the block (perhaps a nice microphone) and try to show on an oscilliscope the various waveforms generated by near-detonation-point combustion. Perhaps a microphone (and some advanced ECU software/hardware) can eliminate the need for an oxygen sensor? > I would like to thank everybody for their support as I did locate the = > prob. As I was peering under the hood one particularly brisk morning = > with my trusty FLUKE 87 in hand ready to test the Cold Start Injector = > wiring, I noticed it was UNPLUGGED! Well, I plugged it in, and fired it = > up. Has been starting perfectly ever since. > > Paul (If it don't work, plug it in and then try it..) Ruschman ahh, a fellow volvo enthusiast. That one gets 'em EVERY TIME.. i've seen many cars in the junkyard with nothing wrong but the cold start injector wiring, obvious once you know what to look for. I once met someone with a DeLorean (volvo engine) in his yard, he said it didn't start. He opened the trunk for me to look at the engine, and i immediately pointed out that his Thermal Time Switch connector was broken off and disconnected (the TTS provides the ground path for the CSI, without the CSIs spray you'll NEVER get a K-jet car started) ------------------------------ From: "Shannen Durphey" Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 02:27:31 -1000 (HST) Subject: Re: Injector"spray"vs.evaporation - ---------- > >> A number of years ago, I read about a "Hot Vapor" engine > >> that Smokey Yunick designed and developed with the intent of selling to the > >> auto companies (none of them bit though - pity). This system ran the > >> air/fuel mixture through a manifold that circulated the engine water around > >> the charge and then passed the charge to another manifold that the exhaust > >> system ran around (can you say _dangerous_ here) and then dumped the charge > >> into the cylinders though a carb. The mixture was around 400 to 500 > degrees > >> F when entered into the chamber and fully atomized. He was getting (if my > >> feeble memory serves me correctly) about (150 HP and 50 mpg) > > > >( three-cylinder sprint engine.) > > > >is there any thing in print of how he did this?? > > There is some in print, but I can't remember where I saw it. It's not in my books. Smokey used a Pontiac Fiero for the mule with a 2.5l engine. Smokey claims the reason for keeping the intake charge under pressure is to keep the rapidly expanding gasses contained in the engine. The homegenizer served to keep the fuel/air mix consistent. If you want to talk to the source, call Smokey's Automotive Service, 957 North Beach St. Daytona Beach, FL 32117 (904) 254-0838 :) ------------------------------ From: "Rausch, Bernd" Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:34:40 +0100 Subject: AW: knock knock Hi Steve, I=B4m very interested in your schematic, please e-mail it to me. Thanx Bernd Rausch > -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- > Von: swagaero [SMTP:wb7omm@xxx.net] > Gesendet am: Donnerstag, 4. September 1997 03:38 > An: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Betreff: knock knock >=20 > for those of you that want the knock detector schematic send me a > private e-mail to=20 >=20 > wb7omm@xxx.=20 > The only thing I ask that you do not post it or send it to anyone = else > use it for yourself. >=20 > Steve Parkman >=20 >=20 > ----|------||------|---- > --|------[]------|-- > 0/ \0 >=20 >=20 >=20 > www.flash.net/~swagaero ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V2 #325 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".