DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, 17 June 1998 Volume 03 : Number 280 In this issue: Re: GM/Delco ECU Information Re: Bench racing ecms Even if ya hate 101 please read new PC EFIx86 mailing list Trigger disc orientation help. Injector Cycling Injector cleaning Gar was right, again Re: GM/Delco ECU Information Re: Injector cleaning article Re: Injector Cycling Cross counts on bench ecms, and misc Re: Injector cleaning Gar was right, again Re: Injector Cycling Re: Nitrus injectors (was Hydrothermal Biomass-Fueled Engines) LPG (NG) Injection (was Nitrus injectors which was Hydrothermal Biomass-Fueled Engines) Re: Trigger disc orientation help. Re: GM/Delco ECU Information Re: Bench racing ecms QUIT SENDING ME E-MAIL Re: Trigger disc orientation help. Re: Bench racing ecms Re: Injector Cycling .. where to obtain cheap electronics Re: Bench racing ecms Message from CSH, HQ Re: Bench racing ecms Felpro EFI info needed Re: Propane injection (was Nitrus injectors (was Hydrothermal Biomass-Fueled Engines)) Re: QUIT SENDING ME E-MAIL Re: Felpro EFI info needed Re: Bench racing ecms Even if ya hate 101 please read Re: Message from CSH, HQ Re: Bench racing ecms Even if ya hate 101 please read Re: Bench racing ecms Even if ya hate 101 please read Re: Bench racing ecms Even if ya hate 101 please read See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ian Levy Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:46:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: GM/Delco ECU Information I know it's bad for to follow-up one's own posts, but I've now got the model numbers off the ECU (thanks to Bruce and Gregory). There are two possibilities: One is off by itself : 16129239 The other is labelled 'Service No: 16132241' There's also (what I assume is the memcal code) ANXZ printed on it. I've also had a look at the 90LOTUS.BIN file on efi332. It's entirely different to the one in mine. Anyone any further information? Cheers Ian. - -- Dr. Ian Levy, Dept Of Computer Science, University of Warwick, Coventry CV4 7AL eMail: ian@xxx.uk SMS/Phone: +44370 428779 FAX: +44370 429016 Urgent eMail: ian@xxx.uk Err, that's DOCTOR short, fat bastard to you! ------------------------------ From: garfield@xxx.com Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:13:57 -0700 Subject: Re: Bench racing ecms Even if ya hate 101 please read On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:56:31 +0000, steve ravet wrote: >Speaking as a "magazine expert" here... Other people have posted that >battery voltage makes a difference to the fuel injector as far as how >fast it opens, etc. So I believe the ECM does have a battery voltage >correction for injector on time. Yeah, good point I hadn't thot about that. But this discussion about running with the injectors connected makes we also wonder WHY you'd want/need to do that on the bench, unless you were metering fuel delivery. Seems like for most of the testing, measuring the duty cycle on the driver's output would suffice. Also, some injectors don't like being operated at high duty cycles without FLUID in them to cool them. Gar ------------------------------ From: Kelly Murray Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:58:35 -0700 Subject: new PC EFIx86 mailing list I've created a new mailing list that is focused on building an intel x86 PC based EFI system. It seems that there are a number of other people that are working on or interested in the same thing. The DIY_EFI is very EE technical, and quite frankly isn't very user-friendly towards the non-EE folks, such as myself ;) So I've created another list that is targetted to a PC hardware solution, and for us folks that only wear baseball hats and helmets. To subscribe, visit http://www.onelist.com, and subscribe to the PCEFI list. Cheers, Kelly Murray kem@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Chris Wilson Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:12:12 +0100 Subject: Trigger disc orientation help. I am rebuilding a Formula 3 race engine.An Alfa Romeo 8 valve twin spark Novamotor.It came with Magnetti Marelli management for ignition and fuel.I am based in the UK,and the only source of info and spares is in Italy,where they speak little or no,English at the factory.The management is triggered by a disc trapped between the cam belt pulley and the front shoulder of the crank.I expected it to be pinned or keyed,when I undid the front pulley bolt,but it wasn't ...:-( The disc is free to rotate.There is no distributor trigger,or cam trigger.I faxed Italy,and received the reply that : "At TDC on 1 or 4 ,one prong of the disc should be central to the crank pickup sender". The disc has 5 prongs.4 at 12,3,6 and 9 O'clock ,and the 5th right next to one of the other 4,not spaced well away,like others I have seen.I am trying to work out if it matters which "prong" is opposite the trigger pickup at TDC.Should I use one of the 3 single prongs,or one of the pair adjacent to one another?If the adjacent ones,which one of them?Or doesn't it matter?Can it be TDC on any stroke,or should it be TDC on the firing stroke,if I use one of the adjacent ones? Hmmm... Thanks for any help. - -- Best Regards, Kasper. ------------------------------ From: "frederic.breitwieser" Date: Wed, 3 Jun 98 14:27:52 -0400 Subject: Injector Cycling That's easy to fix Gar. Run a junkyard in-tank fuel pump into a bucket of some non-explosive liquid similar to gasoline (solvent?), feed a fuel rail, and have the injectors on a metal plate hanging over the bucket. By using the real injectors rather than just a resistive load, you have a "real model" to experiment with. Unlike resistive loads, inductors create a backwash of electricity when the internal coil collapses when the current is removed. Maybe this is important, maybe not. But its not too difficult to rig. Frederic Breitwieser Homebrew Automotive ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:53:45 -0400 Subject: Injector cleaning Gar was right, again Got ahold of John of PE, and got his blessing on posting the Injector article. So I'll be scanning it, can I have a volunteer who will be willing to .zip it and post it to 332 incoming. Think it was 14 pages are so, and with my scanner is about 7 meg per page. Thanks to all for help with getting the scanner, and finding John, etc etc etc.... Cheers Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:56:23 -0400 Subject: Re: GM/Delco ECU Information - -----Original Message----- From: Ian Levy Subject: Re: GM/Delco ECU Information >There are two possibilities: >One is off by itself : 16129239 >The other is labelled 'Service No: 16132241' >There's also (what I assume is the memcal code) ANXZ printed on it. > For grins tried going by BCC to find ecm using what I have no luck, only thing I know now is if it's familiar to someone by ecn #. Cheers Bruce ------------------------------ From: garfield@xxx.com Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:37:48 -0700 Subject: Re: Injector cleaning article On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:53:45 -0400, "Bruce Plecan" wrote: >Got ahold of John of PE, and got his blessing on posting the Injector >article. So I'll be scanning it, can I have a volunteer who will be willing >to .zip it and post it to 332 incoming. Think it was 14 pages are so, >and with my scanner is about 7 meg per page. Thanks to all for >help with getting the scanner, and finding John, etc etc etc.... Got a couple suggestions. How bout I tell ya where you can get a trial copy of WinZip so you can pack 'em up BEFORE you have to ship them anywhere. Go to www.winzip.com and download the trial version. If it's like previous versions, if you're penniless and can't afford the $29 to register, it just keeps giving you reminders to register, but doesn't actually "time out" on you. Otherwise, it's certainly worth the $29! Either way, tho, Dr. Pelican, you really need this as part of your kit bag. Then if you want, I can package the pages up in a proper PDF document, if you want. Just upload the zip'd pages to incoming, and let us know it's thar. I'll come along and render it in PDF, for those that wanna nice pageable/scrollable/zoomable doc. Gar ------------------------------ From: garfield@xxx.com Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:03:34 -0700 Subject: Re: Injector Cycling On Wed, 3 Jun 98 14:27:52 -0400, "frederic.breitwieser" wrote: >That's easy to fix Gar. Run a junkyard in-tank fuel pump into a bucket of >some non-explosive liquid similar to gasoline (solvent?), feed a fuel rail, >and have the injectors on a metal plate hanging over the bucket. By using the >real injectors rather than just a resistive load, you have a "real model" to >experiment with. Unlike resistive loads, inductors create a backwash of >electricity when the internal coil collapses when the current is removed. >Maybe this is important, maybe not. But its not too difficult to rig. Yup, understood. I was just saying that you don't really need to fire the actual injectors, to figure out to a pretty close approx. the fuel delivery, but rather look at the scope & measure the pulses. Actually, Bruce said he has a frequency counter, so he can use THAT to measure the pulses even more precisely. That's SOP. Thus, the only diff. between estimated and actual flow would be from turn-on/off inertial dynamics in the injector, which you could "measure" at the end of your experiments, instead of running with all this "apparatus" of battery and liquids squirting every which way, all the time. Remember, we were tryna suggest a way for Bruce to do his testing whilst avoiding the hassle of a real battery & charger; the suggestion of using a PC power supply was made, except that with 8 injectors and an 8-cyl IGN going, it might not have enough current. (Actually, you wouldn't need to run the IGN coil, either, which would save even MORE current, cuz on the GM IGN's the signal that goes back to the ECM is from the MODULE, not the coil; it (the coil) doesn't actually have to be there for the IGN module to completely function 100% normally. I mentioned the need for cooling at high rep rates not because it was difficult to solve, but as an additional reason why for most of the testing, looking at the injector driver waveform, instead of actually running the injector, might be a better way to go. Thas all. P.S. I've run a setup like you describe to measure injector flow; man what a mess! And try and find a solvent that's REALLY non-combustible, nor gives off fumes. Especially for Bruce with his lungs on perpetual overtime, I wouldn't wanna have to do THAT everytime I wanted to run my "simulator". I'm not real sure, but I'd guess using water would be asking for trouble. Also, NOPE, the presence of the inductive noise from the injectors isn't essential or even important to modelling the correct behavior of the ECU, unless you were checking for noise immunity. B) Plus, once you built one of these acoustically sensing injector cleaner gizmos, with his scope, he could look at the injector driver waveform, up against the acoustic sensor output, and get a REAL good idea of inertial effects in his injectors, and probably be able to get a VERY close correction/estimate of REAL fuel delivery, without squirting a drop of solvent/fluid around anywheres. Woohee, whadaconcept! Gar ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:09:22 -0400 Subject: Cross counts on bench ecms, and misc A quick double check on seeing if you have the O2 crossings right will be just looking at the Block Learn/Integ numbers if both 128 then ya got everything lied to correctly. Just as a double check if I want to compare C3 to P4, and 4K, 16K, and 32K proms then I just need to be able to fire up a 747, 165, and 730 ecm, and for back to back testing all I would need is a set of 2 connector ecm wirez, and a set of 3 connector ecm types, right?. The 512 prom sizes are for the PCM/flash prom sizes and those stop at 1024, right?. Would anyone have a pair of ALDL connectors?. Harness side. Cheers Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Slava" Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 00:37:32 +0400 Subject: Re: Injector cleaning Gar was right, again Hi Bruce! >Think it was 14 pages are so, >and with my scanner is about 7 meg per page. Thanks to all for >help with getting the scanner, and finding John, etc etc etc.... >Cheers >Bruce What size have pages? 7 meg per page is very bulky. Try use lower scanning resolutions and safe image in .jpg format. In this case zipping not need. Do not group them - I think that 14 small files are better than 1 big one. Slava. ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:50:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Injector Cycling >Yup, understood. I was just saying that you don't really need to fire >the actual injectors, to figure out to a pretty close approx. the fuel >delivery, but rather look at the scope & measure the pulses. Actually, >Bruce said he has a frequency counter, so he can use THAT to measure the Got my 100Mhz scope today from Steve (Thanks Big Guy!) and hooked it up for a test, works great. Now to have it calibrated, then off to the ECM. By then my workbench should be reorganized in such a way that I can actually see it, and have a place to work. Going to be working on the '148 ECM from 86 FWD cars and 87 GN's. have it and the entire wiring harness (also the engine, digital dash, and all the dopey toys that go with it). Big, big harness. Though I probably could skip the body harness, and just keep the digital dash and the sensor portion of it. >instead of running with all this "apparatus" of battery and liquids >squirting every which way, all the time. True. I like making things complicated, its my nature unfortunately. >a PC power supply was made, except that with 8 injectors and an 8-cyl >IGN going, it might not have enough current. (Actually, you wouldn't >need to run the IGN coil, either, which would save even MORE current, The best bet is to comb flea markets that have vendors of electronic crap. I bought a 12V 50A (continuous, 70A peak) power supply for very little money. This is what I test most of my car stuff on. In fact, in the last few car-rewires (older vehicles being restored) I tested the harness end to end on the garage floor. Just didn't turn on all the lights at the same time :) >MODULE, not the coil; it (the coil) doesn't actually have to be there >for the IGN module to completely function 100% normally. That's good information :) >P.S. I've run a setup like you describe to measure injector flow; man >what a mess! And try and find a solvent that's REALLY non-combustible, >nor gives off fumes. Especially for Bruce with his lungs on perpetual >overtime, I wouldn't wanna have to do THAT everytime I wanted to run my >"simulator". I'm not real sure, but I'd guess using water would be >asking for trouble. Yes, the injectors would clog. I tested the injectors I pulled from the yard to get a matching set of six by using gasoline. Not the brightest of moves, but I didn't smoke near it, that's for sure. >ECU, unless you were checking for noise immunity. B) Its a GM ECM, of course it has noise Thanks for the info ! Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ :When in doubt, by two." - - ------------------------------ From: xxalexx@xxx.com Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 05:44:59 +0000 Subject: Re: Nitrus injectors (was Hydrothermal Biomass-Fueled Engines) > Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:10:32 +1000 > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > From: Matthew Harding > Subject: Re: Nitrus injectors (was Hydrothermal Biomass-Fueled Engines) > Reply-to: diy_efi@xxx.edu Bosch has LPG injectors, which I think presently used in big 3 systems. Walboro makes a interface system. Also good source of info. is SAE Propane Vehicle Challenge by university students, many designs used injectors. > There was something in a motor magazine recently about someone protoyping a > LPG injection system... with special purpose built injectors... would these > bo better for what you want? > > some one else in aus might know more about it, I just remember flicking > past it at the newsagent one day :( > Matthew Harding > --------------- > > reply to any of these.... > > mharding@xxx.au > bernie@xxx.au > bernie@xxx.au > > ------------------------------ From: Wayne Blair Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:56:49 +1000 Subject: LPG (NG) Injection (was Nitrus injectors which was Hydrothermal Biomass-Fueled Engines) These 2 links may help. http://fastlane.com.au/News/naturalgas.htm http://www.docscipark.com.au/liquiphase.html wayne ------------------------------ From: AL8001@xxx.com Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 20:39:05 EDT Subject: Re: Trigger disc orientation help. In a message dated 98-06-16 14:28:34 EDT, chris@xxx.com writes: >.I expected it to be pinned or >keyed,when I undid the front pulley bolt,but it wasn't ...:-( The >disc is free to rotate.There is no distributor trigger,or cam >trigger.I faxed Italy,and received the reply that : > >"At TDC on 1 or 4 ,one prong of the disc should be central to the >crank pickup sender". EZ fix. Take a close look at the wheel and area that the center of the wheel touches. There will be some sort of impression from the bolted parts. Just match up the lines, scrapes and marks! ------------------------------ From: Scot Sealander Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 20:41:50 -0700 Subject: Re: GM/Delco ECU Information Ian Levy wrote: > There are two possibilities: > One is off by itself : 16129239 I would hazard a guess that this is the software number. Have you hooked up a scanner? Is the PROM ID 9239? > The other is labelled 'Service No: 16132241' This is probably the ECM number. Never seen it. As I recall, George mentioned that these cars had "extra" injectors that came on during an "overboost" condition. Not sure what that meant. Did find some stuff in the other lotus bin that may have been for that. That is just from memory. Haven't looked at it in a long time. > I've also had a look at the 90LOTUS.BIN file on efi332. It's entirely > different to the one in mine. If you would not mind, I would like to see the code in yours... > Anyone any further information? Not now... Scot Sealander Sealand@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Scot Sealander Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:00:34 -0700 Subject: Re: Bench racing ecms Gregory A. Parmer wrote: > I've got my '7747 running on the bench (wall actually) and > if you plug in the real injectors the power supply doesn't I usually use a 12 VDC wall-wart. You know, those things you plug in the wall... As long as you don't power up much, they work great. They are only a few bucks. > Problem I'm having is getting the intended feedback. Surprisingly > enough to me, PW seems more closely tied to MAP than TPS. I have been preaching this for a while. TPS is not in the fuel equation, at least not directly. > On a real engine opening the TPS would reduce MAP and thus > increase PW. On the bench MAP doesn't change (just because > of TPS) and blipping the TPS generates only an increased > PW during the blip..similar to an accel pump. Go figger! That's what TPS is mostly used for, transients. It also has some purpose for other things, like TCC lock-up. > I'm wondering if it'll be OK to just fool the ECM into thinking > it's always right...ie, lots of stoich crossings via a wave gen > of some sort. No way. It is a closed loop controller. It sets a condition, and expects a result, at the right time. You can't just send it stuff. > > Your idea of an engine simulator, at whatever level, is right smack > > in the stateOdeArt of electronics. Is that SCARY, or what? This is from a previous post, but it is a long way from state of the art. I remember that someone from Linc, (the flight simulator company) was writing one on his own time about four years ago. He left Linc as I recall. Not sure what happened to him, or his simulator. Scot Sealander Sealand@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: "michael cummmings" Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 20:43:25 -0700 Subject: QUIT SENDING ME E-MAIL please stop sending me email ------------------------------ From: garfield@xxx.com Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:44:06 -0700 Subject: Re: Trigger disc orientation help. On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:12:12 +0100, Chris Wilson wrote: >There is no distributor trigger,or cam trigger. I'm a tad puzzled by that first clause. Does your IGN system HAVE a distributor at all? I'd like to have that one question/answer nailed down before I "step into it" with a tentative explanation for your teeth, especially the "fifth element". Heh. Lemme know this one clue, OK? And if you DON'T actually have a dizzy in your system, please confirm that the IGN coils fire the cylinders in pairs. OK, two clues, but they're sisters, ifyaknowadamean. Gar ------------------------------ From: garfield@xxx.com Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:01:47 -0700 Subject: Re: Bench racing ecms On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:00:34 -0700, Scot Sealander wrote: >> > Your idea of an engine simulator, at whatever level, is right smack >> > in the stateOdeArt of electronics. Is that SCARY, or what? > >This is from a previous post, but it is a long way from state of the art. >I remember that someone from Linc, (the flight simulator company) was >writing one on his own time about four years ago. He left Linc as I >recall. Not sure what happened to him, or his simulator. I was the one that typed that "stateOdeArt" comment, and you missed my meaning. Simulators ARE part of the "state of the art" in current electronics design. Basically NOTHING these days is designed or built without simulation confirming your ideas work. If I'd meant to say this proposal was NEW or terribly innovative per se, I'da said it was "leading edge" or even "bleeding edge". "State of the art" just means that, it's part of the current art, not passe'. The joke I was making was that this idea of simulating an engine so you can test your electronics is a "giant leap into the PRESENT!" methodology in common practice in electronics. Geez, you don't think I would be silly enough to claim this was some kinda "new idea", do ya?? Actually, in electronics of course, what Bruce is getting together would be more termed an engine "emulator", with "simulator" being used mostly for something running completely INSIDE a computer, with NO actual real hardware built up. But in aviation, simulator means EITHER "full motion cockpit simulator" or "in computer visual simulator", with no place in THAT vocabulary for the word "emulation" to make any distinctions. Sometimes "state of the art" is mixed-metaFord for "latest and greatest", but that's not how I meant it, nor is that it's original meaning. Picky picky, you say?; well, your comment that this idea "is a long way from state of the art" also sounds a tad snotty too! So turnabout is only fair play, in this case. B) Gar ------------------------------ From: "mattz@xxx.com> Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:01:24 -0700 Subject: Re: Injector Cycling .. where to obtain cheap electronics >The best bet is to comb flea markets that have vendors of electronic crap. >I bought a 12V 50A (continuous, 70A peak) power supply for very little >money. This is what I test most of my car stuff on. In fact, in the last >few car-rewires (older vehicles being restored) I tested the harness end to >end on the garage floor. Just didn't turn on all the lights at the same >time :) The best place to obtain cheap electronic parts is to contact your local ham radio club .. I go to the local ham festavals at leasat 2x a year.. I bought a dual trace scope for $20.00 (50mhz) several powersupplies by the pound (yea they are ugly and old but for the $$ you cant touch it) They had a "free" pile there also, you put something that looked good and you got to take something out.. I dumped some old junk rf generators and picked a signal tracer and some other crap.. cant beat a old hamfeast.. mattz ------------------------------ From: "Gregory A. Parmer" Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:33:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Bench racing ecms On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Scot Sealander wrote: > I usually use a 12 VDC wall-wart. You know, those things you plug > in the wall... As long as you don't power up much, they work great. Works with a bagphone too if'n ya gots the free weekend plan! > I have been preaching this for a while. TPS is not in the fuel equation, > at least not directly. Amen. Sorry if I've been asleep in the choir. > > I'm wondering if it'll be OK to just fool the ECM into thinking > > it's always right...ie, lots of stoich crossings via a wave gen > > of some sort. > > No way. It is a closed loop controller. It sets a condition, and > expects a result, at the right time. You can't just send it stuff. I had a sneakin' suspicion that'd be the case. Ya listenin', doc? I see a big cloud headin' for this parade. At least any on any closed loop stuff--which is most of it. Another bit that most probably know already is that a shopvac doesn't come close to the necessary vacuum for a MAP system. It might flow a small MAF, but MAP is hopeless. According to the scanner I managed to get it down to 85kPa (aka 4v). (i hope the kPa is accurate...i was a bit frustrated). Shopvac was a 5.5hp version with a new cleanstream filter. Save your duct tape and go for the mityvac if you just hafta try fakin' it. It's back to the pot method. - -greg BTW--do they have a CSH big enuf for an idiot who could overheat a pot while soldering on leads? I guessing not on that one too. ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:06:34 -0400 Subject: Message from CSH, HQ All the info from both issues of PE have been sccanned and passed along, so in the not too distant future will appear at 332 incoming. Would anyone happen to have a copy of the software that was involved. Cheers folks, I done all I can on this one. Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:28:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Bench racing ecms - -----Original Message----- From: Scot Sealander Subject: Re: Bench racing ecms >Gregory A. Parmer wrote: > >> Problem I'm having is getting the intended feedback. Surprisingly >> enough to me, PW seems more closely tied to MAP than TPS. > >I have been preaching this for a while. TPS is not in the fuel equation, at least not directly. Oh, TPS accleration is not in the fuel "equation". What equation do you speak of here?. Since the content search part of the archives is down, would you share dates of these preachings.. >> On a real engine opening the TPS would reduce MAP and thus >> increase PW. On the bench MAP doesn't change (just because >> of TPS) and blipping the TPS generates only an increased >> PW during the blip..similar to an accel pump. Go figger! > >That's what TPS is mostly used for, transients. Last paragraph it didn't, hmm. It also has >some purpose for other things, like TCC lock-up. > > >> I'm wondering if it'll be OK to just fool the ECM into thinking >> it's always right...ie, lots of stoich crossings via a wave gen >> of some sort. > >No way. It is a closed loop controller. It sets a condition, and >expects a result, at the right time. You can't just send it stuff. > What kind of time intervals?. How much change at what rate?. Do you have any valuable info here?. Do you assume a steady state condition to make these statements? What if the ecm is not seeing a steady state. Or is this "No way", just a silly half statement. > >> > Your idea of an engine simulator, at whatever level, is right smack >> > in the stateOdeArt of electronics. Is that SCARY, or what? > >This is from a previous post, but it is a long way from state of the art. True, but it is a tool to learn from, and find things out. It is a way to draw the truth out, and share some secrets. Unlike those that seat around snipping at others. It's called participation. Do you have any details to share to help with things?. Do you have any feedback ideas?. You say you've run ecms, care to share any of the results!!.. >I remember that someone from Linc, (the flight simulator company) was >writing one on his own time about four years ago. He left Linc as I >recall. Not sure what happened to him, or his simulator. > >Scot Sealander Sealand@xxx.com > Cheers Bruce ------------------------------ From: Matt Beaubien Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:10:44 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Felpro EFI info needed Does anyone have the full poop on Felpro's EFI system? I'm interested in what it is capable of and how much the different options cost. Specifically, I would like to know if it is capable of running a 5 cylinder engine, incorporating a knock sensor, staging injectors, and/or firing individual coils [hmmm... that reminds me, maybe ION could use Audi coils; probably lotsa bucks though]. How many people have used Motec systems? It seems that you can get comparable features in the Felpro for less money. Is there a contact at Felpro that anyone knows of that I can find out the above info if no one else knows? Thanks in advance for any leads. Matt Beaubien mbeaubie@xxx.ca ------------------------------ From: mccabet@xxx.net Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:13:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Propane injection (was Nitrus injectors (was Hydrothermal Biomass-Fueled Engines)) Raymond C Drouillard wrote: > I was thinking about injecting it as a liquid. There would be a lot of > heat absorbed as the liquid vaporizes. This would cool down the intake > air/fuel mixture. Very likely, the denser mixture would result in more > power simply because you can stuff more of it into the cylinders. One question: How would you keep the injectors from freezing? The temperature change would cause condensation (frost/ice) to form on the injector tips. Now this may not be a problem in a hot engine, but what about startup? Another problem, how would you keep the pressure at the injector constant? With a working pressure( liquid) of approximately 150 PSI, on a hot day it will be higher, and lower on a cold day. If you regulate the liquid to a lower value, the liquid will convert back to a vapor in the fuel rail. Just some fuel for discussion. Several engineering grad students have been trying to answer these questions in the LEV/AFV challenge contests. I for one have been contemplating these questions. I am no expert in any way, just have experience on LPG conversions. L8r - -- Thomas McCabe - -mccabet@xxx.net '85 D250, 340 on Propane, Auto '89 Lebaron GTC, 2.2L Turbo II, A-555 5 Speed, MPSBEC '91 Spirit R/T, 2.2L DOHC 16 Valve T3, A568 5 Speed, Anti-lock Brakes, Power Windows, Locks, Drivers Seat. '96 Dakota SLT Club Cab, Brilliant Blue, 5.2L, Auto, 3.55 SG, Gibson Cat-Back Exhaust, ARE A-234 15x7 rims w/ Dunlop GT Qualifiers 255R60-15, Molded running boards and flares, Lund bug shield, Cool Fronts, Ventvisors, and Extang Saber Tonnue cover. ------------------------------ From: "Michael D. Porter" Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:00:12 -0700 Subject: Re: QUIT SENDING ME E-MAIL michael cummmings wrote: > > please stop sending me email Michael, I don't think that's going to stop it.... The list is run by an automated mailer (remember when you subscribed?), and there's a protocol to get off the list, just as there is to get on. I haven't done it in a long while, but try sending an email to: majordomo@xxx.edu with nothing but the following in the body of the message: unsubscribe diy_efi See if that does it for you. Cheers. - -- My other Triumph runs, but.... ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 01:24:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Felpro EFI info needed - -----Original Message----- From: Matt Beaubien Subject: Felpro EFI info needed >Does anyone have the full poop on Felpro's EFI system? I think Jay Carter or Jack Cotton over at the GN List are FP dealers. Cheers Bruce ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:13:00 -0600 Subject: Re: Bench racing ecms Even if ya hate 101 please read Yup. Should have read "outputs 7VAC @xxx." Additionally, some ecms use 2000 pulses/mile or 30hz @ 54mph. Apologies. Shannen TBK wrote: > > It's 1.11Hz/MPH > > -----Original Message----- > From: Shannen Durphey > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> > Date: Tuesday, June 16, 1998 12:59 AM > Subject: Re: Bench racing ecms Even if ya hate 101 please read > > >Bruce Plecan wrote: > >> > >> I just put the hammer, and nails away from nailing the ecms down. > >> Actually coffee cup hooks, and rubberbands. Got a 1'x2' sheet of > >> particle board, 1/2" thick, and the ecms tied to that via the > rubberbands. > >> So some barrier strips and we get to fire up the > >> soldering iron (well actually crimper). > >> > >> Here is what I have, and what I think I need, any thoughts comments > >> appreciated. > >> > >> A 50% dwell frequency generator for VSS, hopefully this will work, > >> and not have to bother with Buffer/amp, or DRAC.. > > > >GM speed signal generator outputs 7VAC @xxx. > > > > > >> A rpm signal generator, but have to work out an interface to module > >> is a transformer necessary?. Ya think just a 1.2v DC pulse would > >> fire the module?. Use a monstable 555 for the 1.2v, and then > >> an adjustable astable for rpm?. > > > >Same speed signal generator, when connected to pickup coil > >terms on module fires it quite well. Module sends reference > >pulse to ecm. > > > > > >Shannen > > ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:50:34 -0600 Subject: Re: Message from CSH, HQ Well, you can find winzip here: http://www.softseek.com/Utilities/File_Compression_and_Zipping/D_4116_index.html Shannen Bruce Plecan wrote: > All the info from both issues of PE have been sccanned and passed > along, so in the not too distant future will appear at 332 incoming. > > Would anyone happen to have a copy of the software that was involved. > > Cheers folks, I done all I can on this one. > Bruce ------------------------------ From: Wayne.MacDonald@xxx.au Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:16:45 +1000 Subject: Re: Bench racing ecms Even if ya hate 101 please read If you don't have the load of the injector would this make the ECU think it had a faulty injector ?. The reason I ask is that I am about to bench mount the ECU from my Triumph motorcycle and try get an idea of the map, In my case the ECU has no MAP or EGO sensors just TPS, Air temp,Air Pressure(in airbox after filter),Coolant temp,Cam Pos and Crank Pos. If I put a resistor instead of the injector will this fool the ECU into thinking it has an injector present ?. Wayne. ------------------------------ From: "TBK" Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:19:26 -0700 Subject: Re: Bench racing ecms Even if ya hate 101 please read Yep, I worked out a digital speedometer and had to run the calculations. Did both time interval and frequency counter methods. I'll never build it, but it was a good waste of time. I think the exact numbers are: 4004 pulse/mile output (speedo, warning,etc) 2002pulse/mile output (cruise, TFE, etc) 1.11Hz/MPH TK - -----Original Message----- From: Shannen Durphey To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Tuesday, June 16, 1998 10:41 PM Subject: Re: Bench racing ecms Even if ya hate 101 please read >Yup. Should have read "outputs 7VAC @xxx." >Additionally, some ecms use 2000 pulses/mile or 30hz @ >54mph. > >Apologies. >Shannen > >TBK wrote: >> >> It's 1.11Hz/MPH >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Shannen Durphey >> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >> Date: Tuesday, June 16, 1998 12:59 AM >> Subject: Re: Bench racing ecms Even if ya hate 101 please read >> >> >Bruce Plecan wrote: >> >> >> >> I just put the hammer, and nails away from nailing the ecms down. >> >> Actually coffee cup hooks, and rubberbands. Got a 1'x2' sheet of >> >> particle board, 1/2" thick, and the ecms tied to that via the >> rubberbands. >> >> So some barrier strips and we get to fire up the >> >> soldering iron (well actually crimper). >> >> >> >> Here is what I have, and what I think I need, any thoughts comments >> >> appreciated. >> >> >> >> A 50% dwell frequency generator for VSS, hopefully this will work, >> >> and not have to bother with Buffer/amp, or DRAC.. >> > >> >GM speed signal generator outputs 7VAC @xxx. >> > >> > >> >> A rpm signal generator, but have to work out an interface to module >> >> is a transformer necessary?. Ya think just a 1.2v DC pulse would >> >> fire the module?. Use a monstable 555 for the 1.2v, and then >> >> an adjustable astable for rpm?. >> > >> >Same speed signal generator, when connected to pickup coil >> >terms on module fires it quite well. Module sends reference >> >pulse to ecm. >> > >> > >> >Shannen >> > > ------------------------------ From: Shannen Durphey Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 00:38:20 -0600 Subject: Re: Bench racing ecms Even if ya hate 101 please read Have you ever checked DRAC pinouts? I sent them to a few people a while back, hoping I'd get some confirmation. I just can't remember who or when. Shannen TBK wrote: > Yep, I worked out a digital speedometer and had to run the calculations. Did > both time interval and frequency counter methods. I'll never build it, but > it was a good waste of time. I think the exact numbers are: > > 4004 pulse/mile output (speedo, warning,etc) > 2002pulse/mile output (cruise, TFE, etc) > 1.11Hz/MPH > > TK ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V3 #280 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. 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