DIY_EFI Digest Sunday, 19 July 1998 Volume 03 : Number 342 In this issue: O2 Sensor Threads Re: O2 Sensor Threads Re: O2 Sensor Threads Re: 555 EFI project organization Re: Web site for DIY_EFI Where is the web site? Re: Thermal Sensor and Load Sensor Re: Where is the web site? LM9044 Re: Custom tuning projects, when are are they going up? Re: temp sensor resistance Re: Thermal Sensor and Load Sensor Re: Custom tuning Re: Thermal Sensor and Load Sensor Re: projects, when are are they going up? Re: Custom tuning Re: EGAR, IAN, 1A1, 8A8 Re: Custom tuning Re: Thermal Sensor and Load Sensor Re: Thermal Sensor and Load Sensor Re: Thermal Sensor and Load Sensor See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: peter paul fenske Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 06:25:16 -0700 Subject: O2 Sensor Threads Hi Gang Hate to ask but can someone confirm the O2 sensor thread as 18mm by 1.5. tia:peter ------------------------------ From: MPoore10@xxx.com Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:37:22 EDT Subject: Re: O2 Sensor Threads In a message dated 98-07-18 10:17:54 EDT, you write: << Hi Gang Hate to ask but can someone confirm the O2 sensor thread as 18mm by 1.5. tia:peter >> I can confirm they are 18mm x ? in an '85 Corvette. Mike ------------------------------ From: mrvette Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:45:24 -0400 Subject: Re: O2 Sensor Threads yes......GENE peter paul fenske wrote: > > Hi Gang > > Hate to ask but can someone confirm the > O2 sensor thread as 18mm by 1.5. > > tia:peter ------------------------------ From: Walter Petermann Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:56:52 -0500 Subject: Re: 555 EFI project organization steve ravet wrote: > > Jake Sternberg wrote: > > > I happen to think the 555 EFI project has a lot of potential.. > > so anyone who is working on or has thought about such a project, post! > > mail me and those who are in charge, set aside some room on the website. > > First off, the address of both WWW pages is > http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Second, I think that's a great idea. Walter Peterman has a summary of > his 555 circuit at > > http://brokersys.com/~corsaro/wiring_diagrams/555fe.htm > > even though it appears that page is down... > > Anyway, feel free to put together a summary and/or collect information > from the archives and send it to me, and I'll post it on the WWW page. > Either html or plain text is fine, I can format it into html. > > --steve > > -- > Steve Ravet > International Meta Systems > http://www.imes.com > steve@xxx.com I have 3 pages for the 555 aux injector circuit. They need to be combined with a main page to make them easier to use.. First attempt: http://brokersys.com/~corsaro/wiring_diagrams/555fe.htm Added a current source for RC circuit http://www.brokersys.com/~corsaro/wiring_diagrams/555fe_isrc.htm Added a cut-off for no operation below a set MAP input: http://www.brokersys.com/~corsaro/wiring_diagrams/555AuxFi.htm The cut-off was put in after seeing Alex's aux injector map at: http://home.onestop.net/nalex/afc.html Feel free to put my circuits on the diy ftp site. I haven't done so because the circuits are untested and I don't know how many versions they'll end up being. Walter ------------------------------ From: TWong29770@xxx.com Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 17:18:42 EDT Subject: Re: Web site for DIY_EFI can someone tell me what the website address for our list is? Thanks in Advance, Tom Wong ------------------------------ From: Thomas Matthews Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 17:36:24 -0400 Subject: Where is the web site? Try http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/diy_efi/ Tom ------------------------------ From: Andrew Ghali Date: Sat, 18 Jul 98 16:57:41 -0700 Subject: Re: Thermal Sensor and Load Sensor >There is a rotary load sensor on the market. The company is called 'Land And >Sea" , they make dyno stands and a real time on car dyno. > >The real time on car dyno uses a rotary strain guage that replaces the drive >shaft yoke. From what I remember of their info sheet, there is also a front >wheel drive system avalible. The problem with strain gauges is that you'll need a) some sort of slip ring contacts for the rotating part or b) magnetic power and signal coupling to transfer as a variable frequency, right? The problems with (a) are obvious; (b) is a bit complex and probably fairly expensive, and subject to calibration problems. The concept of a phase-based sensor is old, and can utilize the same technology used in synchro/resolver equipment. Yes, filtering would be required on any method - your data will be delayed a few turns of the shaft - not too bad? The one problem that none of these methods addresses came up in a discussion with a Motorola automotive-group field application engineer: work hardening of the shaft. You are depending on a known modulus of the shaft in order to determine the torque from its deflection. That's what the Moto guy told me was the reason the method was not used in passenger cars. I suppose race cars with new shafts every race would have no problem, but in the long haul... As an aside; somebody mentioned MAP, RPM, & a cal table instead. I'm no expert here but this seems pretty rough to me. You'd have to add about a dozen other values in before you could get close - like advance/retard, AFR, engine temp, air temp, etc. then add in other constants like engine friction, efficiency, etc. Once you had all that cal'ed from a series of dyno runs, the next time you changed your air filter, or over time as your rings and valve seats wear... I hope I haven't muddied this up too much. I am intrigued about the commercial systems though. I'd like to know how they've solve some of these problems and what approaches they used. It's the engineer in me. Andrew ------------------------------ From: TWong29770@xxx.com Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 20:47:35 EDT Subject: Re: Where is the web site? Tom, Thanks! Tom ------------------------------ From: "Zack" Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:56:51 -0600 Subject: LM9044 All, Anyone know a source for small volume ( < 10 ) orders of LM9044's (Nat Semi's O2 sensor ASIC)?? I've scoured the web, called co's on the phone, etc., can't find a source. NatSem's web page lists it as "full production" but you can't get samples and there's no catalog order link. Are there / have there ever been group buy's of this item? Or, anybody have a couple laying in a parts box somewhere they want to onload? Zack ************** To every difficult question there is a simple, easy to explain wrong answer. ------------------------------ From: TWong29770@xxx.com Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 20:56:54 EDT Subject: Re: Custom tuning Has anyone on the list had any experience with custom tuning of a late model OBD2 GM VCM/PCM from TTS or more commonly The Turbo Shop in Los Angeles CA? I talked to the owner and he seems pretty knowledgable, and susposidly he has a chassis dyno on sight for his tuning calibrations? I just wanted to get some feedback before sending a PCM to TTS for reprogramming. As I have not been able to find anyone else that can do any mods on the 98/99 GM VCM's, except for TTS. My Diacom plus can't even access the data stream and the only way I can diagnois problems is with a barrowed Tech2 from a friends dealership. Tom Wong ------------------------------ From: "Mattz" Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 21:06:01 -0700 Subject: projects, when are are they going up? I was wondering when the info for the ION (knock detection) and EGOR was going to be updated on the web site. ??? z ------------------------------ From: Ken Kelly Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 21:38:26 -0400 Subject: Re: temp sensor resistance Andy, For 96 GM had two temp sensors on the LT1 engines, The sensor for the Gauge was from 1365 to 55 ohms. The Sender for the PCM is 2800 ohms at 80 deg F, but I don't know the range. Ken andy quaas wrote: > > Anybody got resistance values for a GM 2-wire water temp sensor? > > thx > > Andy Q > > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Clare Snyder Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 21:39:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Thermal Sensor and Load Sensor - --For a REAL simple torque measurement - not too practical for day-to-day use in the car and over the road, simply put a degree scale on the driveshaft and with a magnet/pickup trigger an ignition coil and connect your timing light. The timing light will read the twist in the drive shaft. In order to be effective you might need to install a torsion bar in place of the drive-shaft. Use a BIG torque wrench to calibrate the driveshaft degrees/ft lbs and go from there. This basic system works good for stationary engine load determination. _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messagesAndrew Ghali wrote: > Reply to Clare@xxx.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! ------------------------------ From: "Mark Romans" Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 19:25:04 -0700 Subject: Re: Custom tuning Tom I stopped and talked to Steve this last Monday and he showed me what he was doing on a 98 Vette. He had the spark table all printed out and was running the car on the dyno, running it a WOT and letting the dyno accelerate in 200 rpm increments, snap shooting it with his tech2 and going in and adding spark where appropriate and taking spark out where needed and then re-running it to check the results. It was interesting that the 98 Vette spark map goes all the way to 8000 rpm's and measures the air flow in grams/sec/cyl. He said that one took a while to figure out! He said it runs too rich stock and he had already gained 22 hp and 20 ft lbs from stock and hadn't messed with the air/fuel ratio yet. He does know what he is doing. He sells some really awesome software for the earlier ecms too. Mark - -----Original Message----- From: TWong29770@xxx.com> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Saturday, July 18, 1998 6:01 PM Subject: Re: Custom tuning >Has anyone on the list had any experience with custom tuning of a late model >OBD2 GM VCM/PCM from TTS or more commonly The Turbo Shop in Los Angeles CA? I >talked to the owner and he seems pretty knowledgable, and susposidly he has a >chassis dyno on sight for his tuning calibrations? > >I just wanted to get some feedback before sending a PCM to TTS for >reprogramming. As I have not been able to find anyone else that can do any >mods on the 98/99 GM VCM's, except for TTS. My Diacom plus can't even access >the data stream and the only way I can diagnois problems is with a barrowed >Tech2 from a friends dealership. > >Tom Wong > ------------------------------ From: goflo@xxx.net Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 20:46:41 -0700 Subject: Re: Thermal Sensor and Load Sensor Poking around in the archives I notice several outbreaks of interest in accelerometers, notably the ADXL05. I mention it because these devices are well suited to load & torque sensing applications such as are being discussed in the current thread. Jack ------------------------------ From: JCsDOOR@xxx.com Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 23:46:25 EDT Subject: Re: projects, when are are they going up? thanks to the flame wars probley never. ------------------------------ From: Terry Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 23:03:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Custom tuning TWong29770@xxx.com wrote: > > Has anyone on the list had any experience with custom tuning of a late model > OBD2 GM VCM/PCM from TTS or more commonly The Turbo Shop in Los Angeles CA? I > talked to the owner and he seems pretty knowledgable, and susposidly he has a > chassis dyno on sight for his tuning calibrations? Steve Cole is good IMHO. I have heard that Mike Licht of Modern Musclecar can also program the latemodels (I have no experienece with either so I can't personally make a recommendation) > My Diacom plus can't even access > the data stream and the only way I can diagnois problems is with a barrowed > Tech2 from a friends dealership. > > Tom Wong Try these URLs. I know you don't really wanna invest in yet another scan tool - but it would appear that Rinda is really dragging their feet (so to speak) on updating Diacom with the OBD-2 specs... http://www.obdii.com/autotap.html http://www.easesim.com/products.htm (this one is NOT CHEAP!!!) hope this helps, T. ------------------------------ From: goflo@xxx.net Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 23:17:16 -0700 Subject: Re: EGAR, IAN, 1A1, 8A8 Bruce Plecan wrote: > > Well, now that the dust has settled, anyone got the time, and talent, > to try and save some of these projects?. > Cheers > Bruce Did the throng belly-up off-list? Of the four you mention I'm severely GM-challenged so the last two are out. Maybe I can get an ADA grant... ION is a very seductive idea, suggesting the possibility of closed-loop ION-only control, in addition to knock-sensing, etc. Steak today likely a long way off though. I think EGOR is where the bang-for-the-buck is, real-time. Intend to wade through EGOR posts tomorrow. Any suggestions? Jack ------------------------------ From: "TBK" Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 23:33:32 -0700 Subject: Re: Custom tuning Just how much are Tech I's? Tk - -----Original Message----- From: Terry To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Saturday, July 18, 1998 9:23 PM Subject: Re: Custom tuning >TWong29770@xxx.com wrote: >> >> Has anyone on the list had any experience with custom tuning of a late model >> OBD2 GM VCM/PCM from TTS or more commonly The Turbo Shop in Los Angeles CA? I >> talked to the owner and he seems pretty knowledgable, and susposidly he has a >> chassis dyno on sight for his tuning calibrations? > >Steve Cole is good IMHO. I have heard that Mike Licht of Modern Musclecar >can also program the latemodels (I have no experienece with either so >I can't personally make a recommendation) > >> My Diacom plus can't even access >> the data stream and the only way I can diagnois problems is with a barrowed >> Tech2 from a friends dealership. >> >> Tom Wong > >Try these URLs. I know you don't really wanna invest in yet another >scan tool - but it would appear that Rinda is really dragging their >feet (so to speak) on updating Diacom with the OBD-2 specs... > >http://www.obdii.com/autotap.html > >http://www.easesim.com/products.htm (this one is NOT CHEAP!!!) > >hope this helps, > >T. > ------------------------------ From: "Andrew W. Macfadyen" Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 08:41:34 +0100 Subject: Re: Thermal Sensor and Load Sensor The value of the shear modulus for rubbers and other elastomers is non-linear and tend to vary from batch to batch depending on compostion this would make getting any degree of accuarcy difficult.. A better candidate is a composite driveshaft made of GRP such as used on the 4x4 version of the Renault Espace. Jim Davies wrote: > On Sat, 18 Jul 1998 JCsDOOR@xxx.com wrote: > > > well here we go again you want to steal drive shaft load sensor.... > > If you look in september CIRCLE TRACK page 97 you will find on boad dyno . > > cost a Wheel barell Full of money btw .neet any way, sure would like to have > > one for my late model. > > > If there is a rubberized 2-piece driveshaft that will fit the vehicle the > increased movement may make the idea workable. ------------------------------ From: "Andrew W. Macfadyen" Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 09:06:05 +0100 Subject: Re: Thermal Sensor and Load Sensor

since this works like a spring or torsion bar the relationaship is not
linear with displacement, more like a cube function

Clive

No the  torsional stiffness is  linear within elastic limmits  the maths are really simpleIn metric units because its  simpler:

( With appoloiges in advanve to those not using HTML newsreaders  as I have used windows symbol font))
 
T/J   =  Gq/L  =  t/R
 
Where
T is torque, J is the second moment of area of the section, G is he shear modulus of the material, L is the length of the shaft.
 

Andrew ------------------------------ From: "Andrew W. Macfadyen" Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 09:10:08 +0100 Subject: Re: Thermal Sensor and Load Sensor I heard of radio telemetry being used for this type of application, but it wouldn't be viable as a long-term solution. Andrew Ghali wrote: > >There is a rotary load sensor on the market. The company is called 'Land And > >Sea" , they make dyno stands and a real time on car dyno. > > > >The real time on car dyno uses a rotary strain guage that replaces the drive > >shaft yoke. From what I remember of their info sheet, there is also a front > >wheel drive system avalible. > > The problem with strain gauges is that you'll need a) some sort of slip ring > contacts for the rotating part or b) magnetic power and signal coupling to > transfer as a variable frequency, right? The problems with (a) are obvious; > (b) is a bit complex and probably fairly expensive, and subject to calibration > problems. The concept of a phase-based sensor is old, and can utilize the > same technology used in synchro/resolver equipment. Yes, filtering would be > required on any method - your data will be delayed a few turns of the shaft - > not too bad? The one problem that none of these methods addresses came up > in a discussion with a Motorola automotive-group field application engineer: > work hardening of the shaft. You are depending on a known modulus of the > shaft in order to determine the torque from its deflection. That's what the > Moto guy told me was the reason the method was not used in passenger cars. > I suppose race cars with new shafts every race would have no problem, but in > the long haul... > > As an aside; somebody mentioned MAP, RPM, & a cal table instead. I'm no > expert here but this seems pretty rough to me. You'd have to add about a > dozen other values in before you could get close - like advance/retard, > AFR, engine temp, air temp, etc. then add in other constants like engine > friction, efficiency, etc. Once you had all that cal'ed from a series of > dyno runs, the next time you changed your air filter, or over time as your > rings and valve seats wear... > > I hope I haven't muddied this up too much. I am intrigued about the > commercial systems though. I'd like to know how they've solve some of > these problems and what approaches they used. It's the engineer in me. > > Andrew ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V3 #342 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".