DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, 1 September 1998 Volume 03 : Number 406 In this issue: [none] Renault F1 V10 Re: boost presser and power gain Re: Injector Sizing: not dumb questions at all RE: Renault F1 V10 Re: Kalmaker Re: Renault F1 V10 Where is everyone? Re: PROM Programmers Re: Injector Sizing: REALLY dumb question Re: boost presser and power gain Re: Renault F1 V10 Re: Injector Sizing: REALLY dumb question RE: PROM Programmers Re: air-assisted injectors, sort of Re: Injector Sizing: REALLY dumb question Re: Renault F1 V10 Re: PROM Programmers RE: PROM Programmers Re: Injector Sizing: REALLY dumb question RE: Retrofit TBI to MGB Re: air-assisted injectors, sort of Re: Retrofit TBI to MGB Re: Retrofit TBI to MGB Re: Retrofit TBI to MGB Re: air-assisted injectors, sort of Re: Renault F1 V10 Re: air-assisted injectors, sort of Re: Retrofit TBI to MGB RE: Renault F1 V10 Re: Retrofit TBI to MGB Re: air-assisted injectors, sort of See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John S Gwynne Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 06:10:01 -0400 Subject: [none] Subject: [admin] List services (automated monthly post) This message is post monthly as a reminder of the available list services. For help: Send "help" to Majordomo@xxx. To post: Send to "[list name]@xxx.edu" To subscribe: Send to Majordomo@xxx.edu subscribe [list name] [your email address *only* if different than your "From" address] To unsubscribe: Send to Majordomo@xxx.edu unsubscribe [list name] [your *registered* email address if different than your "From" address] The archive to each mailing list is available through the following sources: 1) WWW. http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/ 2) ftp. ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/ 3) Majordomo. Send "index [list name]" to Majordomo@xxx. You will find a file "archive_date_index" whose contents show the period covered by each of the archive files "archive_num_*". Digest mode is available for each mailing list. Send "lists" to Majordomo for a listing a mailing lists served. To switch to the digest mode, unsubscribe from the regular list and then subscribe to the digest version (i.e., diy_efi-digest). WWW site (for diy_efi and efi332): http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/ now mirrored at http://tech.buffalostate.edu/efi Please send information to be added to this posting to jsg@xxx. John ------------------------------ From: ants Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 20:14:34 +1000 Subject: Renault F1 V10 Hi all, All this talk about where injectors should go reminded me of a video I have. It's about the Renault F1 V10 engine. It's about the engine development Renault conducted for the Williams team back in '96. Anyway, there is a section which has the engine running on a dyno, and a close up of it showed what looked like the injectors sitting on top of the trumpets, spraying fluid into the trumpets. Amazing stuff, but they never explained why these injectors were positioned above the trumpets instead of the usual place. Viz: 10 trumpets and 10 injectors positioned above, complete with fuel rail. Note: I am assuming it was injecting fuel, as there were no other injectors I could see below the trumpets. Anyone want to take a guess? Ants. ------------------------------ From: Robert Gallant Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 07:39:03 -0500 Subject: Re: boost presser and power gain > What interdependence is between boost presser and power gain? > If not turbo engine is 100 hp, what power growth will obtain by 2 bar > (absolute) boost? And how march reduction of compression ratio will > needed? > > If anyone has these formulas, please let me know! Here's the equations from the old book Street Supercharging. Pr = (Pa + Pb) / Pa Y = (Pr^.283) - 1 dTi = Y(T + 460) Note: adding 460 changes temp to deg Rankine. dTa = dTi / Ea Td = dTa + T Dr = Pr(T + 460)/(Td + 460) dTa = Actual temp increase dTi = Ideal temp increase due to increasing pressure Dr = Density ratio Ea = Adiabatic efficiency Pa = Atmospheric Pressure (14.7 psia) Pb = Boost Pressure (psig) Pr = Pressure Ratio T = Intake air temp in deg F Td = Discharge temp Here are some numbers as a check: Adiabatic effic = .68 Atmos Pressure = 14.7 psia Temperature = 80 F Boost Pressure = 8 psig Td = 183.9 F Dr = 1.295 Multiply unboosted HP by DR to get a rough guesstimate of boosted HP. Remember this is only a guesstimate!! It doesn't account for the HP required to turn the supercharger (-), the superchargers ability to overcome intake inefficiencies (+), ... If you want to see the effect of an intercooler just modify Td for the temp drop across the intercooler and Dr for the pressure drop across the intercooler. I don't have any advice about compression. I'm running a supercharged '86 Rx7 (roots type supercharger) with stock compression 9.4:1 at 11 psi of boost on 94 octane fuel, and 15 deg of timing retard. BTW: If anyone is interested, I put the equations into a MatLAB script. - -- Rob MailTo:gallant@xxx.mil ------------------------------ From: "Gary Derian" Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 07:51:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Injector Sizing: not dumb questions at all In my opinion, I think the Oberg injectors are just the ticket for a 2 stroke where you have to inject fuel after the exhaust port closes. On a 4 stroke, however, the gains will be small if any because there is ample time to mix during the compression stroke. Gary Derian >For something that impressed me as very much as being a peek into the >future, take a peek at the web site that Stuart Baly called our attention >to over the weekend, amid the smoke. "www.orbeng.com.au". Their stuff would >appear to offer the best yet. Their financial data appear to indicate that >people like Siemens, Daimler, and Bosch agree with this assessment. The >neatest thing about it is that I see no reason not to stab the Orbital air >assisted injectors (the actual fuel injectors, which, in turn, plug into >them, are standard stuff) into the existing bungs on an existing TPI >engine and go from there. One would have twice as many drivers, (one for >fuel injectors, one for air valves) but hey--I hear Sandy already has some >grey hairs! Orbital claims maximum droplet size of 8 microns coming out of >the injector. Obviously, if these units can direct inject, they are quick >enough to match injection with inhale in a TPI system without resorting to >staged injectors. The Orbital air injectors are in production in Michigan, >and available through the Mercury Marine parts system, as (that) Merc has >had engines (their DFI-200) in production using them for two years!!!!! >(All I know SO FAR!!) > >Anybody out there care to place a wager on how much improvement in: torque, >power, and BSFC would be seen with this type of a conversion on an >otherwise same TPI engine???? (Tom--I've got first dibs on any bets against >improvements.) > >Regards, Greg > ------------------------------ From: Michael Kasimirsky Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 08:06:42 -0400 Subject: RE: Renault F1 V10 > All this talk about where injectors should go reminded me of > a video I have. It's about the Renault F1 V10 engine. > It's about the engine development Renault conducted for the > Williams team back in '96. First off, I would LOVE to see that video... Care to get in the video rental business? :-) Where did you get this video? I'd really like to get my hands on a copy of this. Can you see the throttle assemblies? I'd like to see the barrel throttles that are used on F1 engines. > Anyway, there is a section which has the engine running on a > dyno, and a close up of it showed what looked like the > injectors sitting on top of the trumpets, spraying fluid into > the trumpets. Amazing stuff, but they never explained why > these injectors were positioned above the trumpets instead of > the usual place. >From what I understand, the injectors are mounted in that location to try and improve the quality of the mixture. An F1 engine turns 17,000 rpm and consequently has very little time for injection of fuel and atomization of same. So they mount the injectors above the intake velocity stack to give the fuel some extra time and distance to get mixed with the incoming air. Michael Kasimirsky 1990 Yamaha FZR400 Superbike Racer Loki Motorsports 1993 Kawasaki ZX1100D1 Streetbike Rider FASTTRAX & WERA Novice #22 Sponsored by Loki Motorsports, Bridgestone, mtk@xxx. ------------------------------ From: John Hess Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 10:40:30 -0500 Subject: Re: Kalmaker First of all, Kalmaker is not just software. It also has an emulator that plugs into the MEMCAL slot in the computer. It "talks" to this emulator via the ALDL port on your car. I have one on order (from TPIS) and hope to be able to tell you more about it at a later date. At 01:36 PM 8/13/98 +1000, Geoff & Sue Richards wrote: >Opinions wanted on Kalmaker software (any good?)What is real-time >programming? >If these questions are not applicable to group anybody point me to the right >archives or private >e-mail >Thanks >Geoff > > > ------------------------------ From: "Andrew W. Macfadyen" Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:01:37 +0000 Subject: Re: Renault F1 V10 Might be something do with air velocity -- outside the trumpet the air velocity will be slower. It could also be some to with the cloud of fuel mist stand-off you always get around the entrance trumpets. ants wrote: > Hi all, > > All this talk about where injectors should go reminded me of a video I have. It's about the Renault F1 V10 engine. > It's about the engine development Renault conducted for the Williams team back in '96. > > Anyway, there is a section which has the engine running on a dyno, and a close up of it showed what looked like the injectors sitting on top of the trumpets, spraying fluid into the trumpets. Amazing stuff, but they never explained why these injectors were positioned above the trumpets instead of the usual place. > > Viz: 10 trumpets and 10 injectors positioned above, complete with fuel rail. > > Note: I am assuming it was injecting fuel, as there were no other injectors I could see below the trumpets. > > Anyone want to take a guess? > > Ants. ------------------------------ From: "Geoff & Sue Richards" Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 22:53:09 +1000 Subject: Where is everyone? Has the list gone down? geoffsue@xxx.au http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/6724/ http://www2.one.net.au/~geoffsue If you have ICQ you can message me. My ICQ#:15292841 Like This Internet Resource? Click to Recommend-It (tm) ------------------------------ From: "Gregory A. Parmer" Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 07:58:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: PROM Programmers On Mon, 31 Aug 1998, Sandy wrote: > Ok, I need to get a programmer that will burn Bipolar 82SXXX and 74SXXX > proms. Who has a low cost one that can toast the old Bipolar relics without > a multi-mega-dollar adapter board? Ya might ask the folks at General Device Instr if they've got a used dust collector. 2 programmers may be cheaper than 1 in this case. www.generaldevice.com - -greg ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 07:16:06 -0600 Subject: Re: Injector Sizing: REALLY dumb question >> For these reasons I've heard (unconfirmed rumours) that F1 cars >> heat the fuel to 300deg before injection. No droplets at all - all >> vapour. You can't argue with 900HP from 3L normally aspirated. >> >This sounds like the famous Pouge carburetor in the 1930's >would get over 100 mpg by vaporizing all the fuel >alex Another collorary of Marphy's Law: There's nothing new under the sun!! Regards, Greg ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 07:18:06 -0600 Subject: Re: boost presser and power gain >I'm non-commital on the subject of leather, discipline, etc, Greg. >Was hoping to concentrate on FI fundamentals....Of course mention >of fundaments will rile up some segments of the community... > >Regards, Jack Do tell---- Greg > >Greg Hermann wrote: >> A lot to be said for that prof's (nick-named "Black Bart") saying that >> "every engineering student who signs up for a class has the God given right >> to flunk it!" Do I finally get the fun of being on the other side of that >> one???? Will there be whips and leathers and chains involved??? ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:25:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Renault F1 V10 - -----Original Message----- From: Andrew W. Macfadyen To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 9:16 AM Subject: Re: Renault F1 V10 Also, might consider the fact that that stuff has almost nothing in common with what we think of as gasoline. Last quote I heard was that it was like $35 per liter. Also, extremely toxic. If ya can look at the breathing gear the refueler wears. Cheers Bruce >Might be something do with air velocity -- outside the trumpet the air velocity will be slower. >It could also be some to with the cloud of fuel mist stand-off you always get around the entrance trumpets. > >ants wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> All this talk about where injectors should go reminded me of a video I have. It's about the Renault F1 V10 engine. >> It's about the engine development Renault conducted for the Williams team back in '96. >> >> Anyway, there is a section which has the engine running on a dyno, and a close up of it showed what looked like the injectors sitting on top of the trumpets, spraying fluid into the trumpets. Amazing stuff, but they never explained why these injectors were positioned above the trumpets instead of the usual place. >> >> Viz: 10 trumpets and 10 injectors positioned above, complete with fuel rail. >> >> Note: I am assuming it was injecting fuel, as there were no other injectors I could see below the trumpets. >> >> Anyone want to take a guess? >> >> Ants. > > > > ------------------------------ From: Joe Boucher Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 09:11:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Injector Sizing: REALLY dumb question > > For these reasons I've heard (unconfirmed rumours) that F1 cars > > heat the fuel to 300deg before injection. No droplets at all - all > > vapour. You can't argue with 900HP from 3L normally aspirated. > > > This sounds like the famous Pouge carburetor in the 1930's > would get over 100 mpg by vaporizing all the fuel > alex I thought it was 200 mpg? Joe Boucher '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban ------------------------------ From: Don.F.Broadus@xxx.com Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:44:17 -0500 Subject: RE: PROM Programmers I have a circuit for a 82S23 fuse link prom programmer that is easy to build. Since it is only 32 bits it doesn't take long to program. I also have a Data I/O 29A programmer that should handle your parts. I have spare 82S23 proms that I would program for you if you sent the address and data info. Take care Don -----Original Message----- From: Sandy [SMTP:sganz@xxx.net] Sent: Monday, August 31, 1998 9:39 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: PROM Programmers Ok, I need to get a programmer that will burn Bipolar 82SXXX and 74SXXX proms. Who has a low cost one that can toast the old Bipolar relics without a multi-mega-dollar adapter board? Sandy ------------------------------ From: xxalexx@xxx.com Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 21:07:24 +0000 Subject: Re: air-assisted injectors, sort of > Ignoring the issue of detonation, how ignitable are lean mixtures? Or > rather, how lean can you make the mixture and still be able to ignite > it? What if you allow for a seriously powerful ignition, and/or bump > the CR up a lot? It seems a bit weird to me that lean mixtures are > more prone to detonation (which indicates to me a mixture near > optimum, or near one of perhaps 2 optimums) and also considered to > be hard to ignite - or is that only at a *much* leaner A/F ratio? > I have heard reports of 26:1; If your engine is still running above 20:1 the extra air will prevent detonation. The Japaneese have production engines, I am not sure if used yet in states. This is one of the reasons for the development of the wide range O2 sensor. alex ------------------------------ From: xxalexx@xxx.com Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 21:07:24 +0000 Subject: Re: Injector Sizing: REALLY dumb question > More like infamous. > Ever hear of the "fish" (or some variation) carburetor? > Yes, do you still have your weird and strange carb. book of forgotten patents or something, I lost mine many moons ago. Warning to inventors on this list One of these inventors did a Jimmy Hoffa. GM rules. alex ------------------------------ From: Adrian Teo Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 08:00:34 -0700 Subject: Re: Renault F1 V10 On Sep 1, 9:25, Bruce Plecan wrote: > Also, might consider the fact that that stuff has almost nothing > in common with what we think of as gasoline. Last quote I > heard was that it was like $35 per liter. Also, extremely toxic. > If ya can look at the breathing gear the refueler wears. ....hope you don't mind me interjecting... According to F1 regulations, the gasoline used in F1 cars is pump quality petrol and to be legal for use, has to be sold at the pump. Since no after-pump additives are allowed, this is usually 108 octane or better UNLEADED gasoline. The pit crew are so dressed not because of toxic fumes but for safety measures. There have been many a time where fuel ignites (due to some problem or otherwise) during pitstops. The breathing gear increases the crew member's surviability. ...anyway, back to the main discussion. Having had the opportunity to have seen/handled the Renault V10 RS6 and RS7 first hand, the injectors are so placed (along a rail above the throttle body stacks) for optimal A/F mix. These engines are designed to be operated in excess of 15000 rpm and hence to maximize the intake efficiency the intake stacks are very short. However higher RPM's also mean that the fast moving air has less time to mix with the fuel. Hence, the injectors are made to spray directly into the intake stack from a distance to allow the A/F charge to mix properly. Also, since these engines are hardly operated at part-throttle situations, the presence of the throttle plates downstream of the injectors do not cause that much fuel condensation... - -AT - -- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Adrian Teo e-mail: adrian.teo@xxx.edu System Administator Instruction Support, Arizona State University Ph: 602.965.9411 http://hybrid.asu.edu Fx: 602.965.2724 Pg:602.204.1831 e-page: adrian@xxx.edu - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 08:24:45 -0700 Subject: Re: PROM Programmers I think the MODEMPU from JDR at $129 may be the ticket, finally found out they can do bipolars, and a ton of other things. Good price too! Sandy At 07:58 AM 9/1/98 -0500, you wrote: > >On Mon, 31 Aug 1998, Sandy wrote: >> Ok, I need to get a programmer that will burn Bipolar 82SXXX and 74SXXX >> proms. Who has a low cost one that can toast the old Bipolar relics without >> a multi-mega-dollar adapter board? > >Ya might ask the folks at General Device Instr if they've >got a used dust collector. 2 programmers may be cheaper than 1 >in this case. >www.generaldevice.com > >-greg > ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 08:29:38 -0700 Subject: RE: PROM Programmers the 82S23 will not quite do it. I also have a simple parallel port hack for the bipolars, but the software is stuck in some other program that I can't really work with. Thanks, any-a-ways! Sandy At 09:44 AM 9/1/98 -0500, you wrote: >I have a circuit for a 82S23 fuse link prom programmer that is easy to >build. Since it is only 32 bits it doesn't take long to program. I also have >a Data I/O 29A programmer that should handle your parts. I have spare 82S23 >proms that I would program for you if you sent the address and data info. > >Take care > >Don > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sandy [SMTP:sganz@xxx.net] > Sent: Monday, August 31, 1998 9:39 PM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: PROM Programmers > > Ok, I need to get a programmer that will burn Bipolar 82SXXX and >74SXXX > proms. Who has a low cost one that can toast the old Bipolar relics >without > a multi-mega-dollar adapter board? > > Sandy > ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 11:36:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Injector Sizing: REALLY dumb question - -----Original Message----- From: Joe Boucher To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 10:54 AM Subject: Re: Injector Sizing: REALLY dumb question >> > For these reasons I've heard (unconfirmed rumours) that F1 cars >> > heat the fuel to 300deg before injection. No droplets at all - all >> > vapour. You can't argue with 900HP from 3L normally aspirated. >> > >> This sounds like the famous Pouge carburetor in the 1930's >> would get over 100 mpg by vaporizing all the fuel >> alex > >I thought it was 200 mpg? Actually I was under the impression the Pouge was what used on the P-38's of WW11. Was a variable venturri, lastest form the Predator. Gotta admit thou, designing a carb to work inverted is a trick. Had neat little round cork floats, as I recall. BTW, I saw a P-38 carb installed onna jeep once, kinda neat, really. The fuel pump looked like a coffee thermos (2 quart size).. Cheers Bruce Doc spent most of the morning trying to fill his coffee mug while it was here. > >Joe Boucher >'70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban > > ------------------------------ From: "Stowe, Ted-SEA" Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:14:23 -0700 Subject: RE: Retrofit TBI to MGB isn't an L-Jettronic a 4 cyl FI, (4 injectors) ? with an mgb head and the Siamesed intake ports, wouldn't that be an issue ? is there an electronic TBI from bosch ? I know the D-Jetronic was FI also. thanks, Ted. - -----Original Message----- From: bearbvd@xxx.net] Sent: Monday, August 31, 1998 4:52 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: Retrofit TBI to MGB >Hi all, I have decided to take up a project to install fuel injection in >my MGB. It has a 1.8L, in-line four cylinder with siamesed intake for >cylinders 1,2 and 3,4. I have done a small amount of study and have >concluded that a throttle body injection system would be the easiest to >implement. > >Basically, I'm looking for advice about conversion. Am I crazy to try to >take on such a project? > >I am considering air flow flap vs. MAP sensor. Any comments? I realize >that the air flow valve can restrict flow, but we are talking about an >engine that is only 95 HP or so, not a fire-breathing behemoth. >I am looking for an existing fuel injection system from a more modern auto >with a similar sized displacement and HP. If I just use a fuel injection >system, with regular mechanical distributor, would I need to consider any >other factors? > >I'm hoping that I can find a system from a Ford, GM, or European auto with >Bosch system. Can anyone recommend systems to consider or avoid? > >Lastly, what literature would you guys recommend I get. I'm a civil >engineer by schooling, but I can understand some electronics. My goal, if >I can get a system to work, would be to eventually work on a system which >would allow tuning of the computer. Therefore, I'd like a book that is >thorough in basic theory, but also covers the workings of the computers. >Is there such an all-encompassing book? > > >Thanks for your time > >Jay Jay-- try a Bosch L-Jetronic off a Volvo B-21 Regards, Greg > > >*********************************************** >Jurgen Hartwig, Civil Engineering, Georgia Tech > >When you were born you cried >and the world rejoiced >Try to live your life so that >when you die you will rejoice >and the world will cry. ------------------------------ From: jb24@xxx.com Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 12:36:58 -0400 Subject: Re: air-assisted injectors, sort of - --0__=OD2oX6Lbmf1CuV8c1TifH2PAu8qchcpp476zQYtvZWPbFvbkt2AVsdCs Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Actually, for all intents and purposes the mixtures at the extreme A/F ratios aren't mixtures at all. The direct injection allows stratified charging, actually close to stoich at the spark plug - pure air in the rest of the cylinder. The low load conditions where DI is most advantageous actually inject after BDC on compression stroke (4- and 2-stroke) to avoid mixing. The heat rejection with highly lean mixtures at low load increases efficiency to get fuel economy up. John Bucknell (Embedded image moved xxalexx@xxx.com to file: 08/31/98 05:07 PM pic32426.pcx) Please respond to diy_efi@xxx.edu To: diy_efi@xxx.edu cc: Subject: Re: air-assisted injectors, sort of > Ignoring the issue of detonation, how ignitable are lean mixtures? Or > rather, how lean can you make the mixture and still be able to ignite > it? What if you allow for a seriously powerful ignition, and/or bump > the CR up a lot? It seems a bit weird to me that lean mixtures are > more prone to detonation (which indicates to me a mixture near > optimum, or near one of perhaps 2 optimums) and also considered to > be hard to ignite - or is that only at a *much* leaner A/F ratio? > I have heard reports of 26:1; If your engine is still running above 20:1 the extra air will prevent detonation. The Japaneese have production engines, I am not sure if used yet in states. This is one of the reasons for the development of the wide range O2 sensor. alex - --0__=OD2oX6Lbmf1CuV8c1TifH2PAu8qchcpp476zQYtvZWPbFvbkt2AVsdCs Content-type: application/octet-stream; name="pic32426.pcx" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pic32426.pcx" Content-transfer-encoding: base64 CgUBCAAAAABoACwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAABaQABAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sTzRPH E8MTwhP1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sT zRPHE8MTwhPwEwzIBgzYE8wTxhPDE8IT7hPOBtcTzBPGE8MTE+wTwgbCBwbCEgbCEgbCEsUG1hPL E8YTwxMT6hMMwgYHwgLCAwISwgfEEsMCwwbVE8sTxRPDExPpE8MGAwcCBwMCwhLDB8ISwgISwgLD BtUTyhPFE8MTE+gTwgIHA8ICEw4DDgLDE8USwwLCEMIG1BPKE8UTwxMT5xMCAwcDAg4TDgITwgIS D8ISD8ISBRICEcICwwbUE8oTxRPCExPmEwYCBwMCDgIOwgLDExITEhPCEg8GxgLDBtMMDAfJE8QT whMT5hMGwwITBgMCDhLFEw8SE8ISBgIDwhIDEsMGB9MDxwwHxRPDExPlEwYHAhESAg8CwhMPwhMP xBMPxRIQwgIDAgMCBtMDxwPEDAfDE8IT4RMHwwzCBgLCEhMCDxLIE8MSD8MSwwIQAwIDBgfSDMkD wgPCDAfCExPbEwfGDMIDDAIHERITEhMSwxMPwxMPwxPDEgIDAgMCwwMCBgzREwfHDMYDDMITE9YT B8UMyAMGB8ICBhLDAsYTEhMSExIPwhIHAgcCAwUQAgYRBgfSE8UTB8QMwgMMwhMT0hMHxAzLA8IM BsISDxESExITAw4DxBMSExITwxICBwPCAsMDDMIGB9ITyRMHwwzCExPPEwfDDMkDxQwHwhMGBxIT AhECEwMOAg7DExITDxMPwxIDAgMCBwMCDAYRBgfSE8kTwhPCDMITE8wTB8MMxwPEDMIHxxMGxBLD Ag4DDgIGwg/IEgIDwgIDAgwCEMIGB9ITyRMHDAcMwhMTyhMHwgzGA8MMwgfMEwYHwhLCEAIOAg4C DhDDAhIPxhIFAgXDAgUCEQYH0hPHEwfCDAcPDMITE8gTB8IMxQPDDAfQEwbDEhDEAhAOEA4QwgLG EgcSBhIGBcMCBcIGB9ATB8UMEwfCDA8HDwwHwhMTxhMHwgzEA8MMB9MTBgfCEhADEMICDhAOEMIC EQIDxxIGBwbCAgUCEQYHyxMHxAwHwhMHEwzCEwcPBw8MB8MTE8UTBwzEA8IMB9YTBsQSEAMCA8UC EQIDAgPDEgcSBgfCBgUQAhDCBgfGEwfEDAfGE8INEwzCEw8HwgwHwxPCE8QTBwzDA8IMB9gTBgfE EhACEMYCEQIDAsQSBhLDBsICEALCBgfCEwfDDAfKEwfCDRMHwhPCDAfEE8ITE8MTBwzCA8IMB9oT DBIHwxLDDBEDxQIDAgPDEgYSBgfCBgIQAhAGDAfCEwzDE8MHyRMHwhPCBxMHxRPDExPDEwzCAwwH 3RMGxxICEQPDAgMCA8MSBhIGBwYMBhACEAIGDMMTDBPCB8YTwwfHEwfGE8MTwhPDEwwDDAfeEwYH xxICEQPDAgMCwhIGEgYHBgwGEAIQAsIGB8MTDMYTwwfKEwzGE8MTwhPDE8IMB98TDBLCB8USAgMR xAISB8ISBgcGDAYQBhAGEAYMB8MMB8kTwwfHEwzGE8MTwhPDEwwPwgzfEwYSB8ISB8ISAhECAwID EgcSBwYHBgwGEAYQxgzDD8IHxRPDB8kTBwzGE8MTwhPDEwzDD8QM3BPCBhIGwxIGAhECAwIHBgcG yAzJDxMHzRMHwwwHxxPDE8ITwxMHDMYPxwwH1BMGEgYSBhLLDM4PwwwTDMcTwgfEDAfJE8QTwhMT xBMHwgzLD9sM0w/GDAfDEwzDEwfEDAfLE8YTwxMTxhMHxAztD8gMBgfIE8QMB84TxxPDE8ITyhMH xwzbD8sMEAUMBcIMwgYH1RPKE8UTwxMT0RMH2wwGEAYQBhACBQwFDAUMBgwHBgfWE8sTxRPDExPu EwYMBhAGEAIGDAYMwwYH1xPLE8YTwxMT8BPKBgfYE8wTxhPDExP1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sTzRPH E8MTwhMMAAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD/ /wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8A AAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A //8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAA AP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA /wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCk gICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vw oKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw //vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzA psrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDA wNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICA wMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACA AICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACA gACA//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP////// - --0__=OD2oX6Lbmf1CuV8c1TifH2PAu8qchcpp476zQYtvZWPbFvbkt2AVsdCs-- ------------------------------ From: goflo@xxx.net Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 09:49:36 -0700 Subject: Re: Retrofit TBI to MGB Good point. I'm contemplating a similar situation - FI'ing a single-port VW bus app. The dual-ports breathe better, but the single-port heads don't crack ... Regards, Jack Stowe, Ted-SEA wrote: > > isn't an L-Jettronic a 4 cyl FI, (4 injectors) ? > with an mgb head and the Siamesed intake ports, wouldn't that be an issue ? ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:21:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Retrofit TBI to MGB - -----Original Message----- From: goflo@xxx.net> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 1:06 PM Subject: Re: Retrofit TBI to MGB >Good point. I'm contemplating a similar situation - FI'ing a >single-port VW bus app. The dual-ports breathe better, but the >single-port heads don't crack ... That's why they invented turbos Bruce > >Regards, Jack > >Stowe, Ted-SEA wrote: >> >> isn't an L-Jettronic a 4 cyl FI, (4 injectors) ? >> with an mgb head and the Siamesed intake ports, wouldn't that be an issue ? > > ------------------------------ From: goflo@xxx.net Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 10:42:13 -0700 Subject: Re: Retrofit TBI to MGB I like it :) Regards, Jack Bruce Plecan wrote: > >Good point. I'm contemplating a similar situation - FI'ing a > >single-port VW bus app. The dual-ports breathe better, but the > >single-port heads don't crack ... > > That's why they invented turbos ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 11:40:53 -0600 Subject: Re: air-assisted injectors, sort of >> Ignoring the issue of detonation, how ignitable are lean mixtures? Or >> rather, how lean can you make the mixture and still be able to ignite >> it? What if you allow for a seriously powerful ignition, and/or bump >> the CR up a lot? It seems a bit weird to me that lean mixtures are >> more prone to detonation (which indicates to me a mixture near >> optimum, or near one of perhaps 2 optimums) and also considered to >> be hard to ignite - or is that only at a *much* leaner A/F ratio? >> >I have heard reports of 26:1; If your engine is still running above >20:1 the extra air will prevent detonation. The Japaneese have >production engines, I am not sure if used yet in states. >This is one of the reasons for the development of the wide range >O2 sensor. >alex I believe the limit of flammability is at about 17 or 18:1 for gasoline in air. Leaner than that and homogenous, it simply won't light, period. To run any leaner average micture, one needs a stratified charge. A diesel burns because the charge is rich enough to burn close to the droplets from the injector. Orbital is achieving their burn with direct injection down to 80:1 AVERAGE af ratio or whatever due to stratification of the charge. With a stratified charge, therre is no mixture to detonate in the "end" gas (further reaches of the chamber. Regards, Greg ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 12:03:30 -0600 Subject: Re: Renault F1 V10 >According to F1 regulations, the gasoline used in F1 cars is pump quality >petrol and to be legal for use, has to be sold at the pump. Since no after-pump >additives are allowed, this is usually 108 octane or better UNLEADED gasoline. > And if you believe that, I have this bridge in Brooklyn that is for sale---- The ways that these guys invent to cheat could even make the old Curtis (Pops) Turner/ Smokey Yunick team look like they just fell of the turnip truck. Once watched a pal pour twe GI cans of left over F1 go juice into his Olds Cutlass (350) Vista Cruiser at Watkins Glen after the race, cuz he was too low on gas to make it back home to Ithaca. Results: car made about 25% more power on way home; car's mileage dropped by about 60%; by two days later, car's engine (previously good) sounded loose as a goose and worn out. Hmmmm. Bill raced a Mini-Cooper at the time, and had also liberated two more fivers of the same stuff for use therein. After listening to the way the Olds sounded after its experience. we conducted a small experiment: threw a splash of the stuff into a glass beaker of brand new Valvoline racing oil. Within about three minutes, the sample of new motor oil had separated into five or six layers!! Needless to say, the rest of the fuel never went into the Mini! Never seen anything like that occur if tried with pump gas!!---Go figure! By the way,, the F1 rules read about the same at that time as they do now as to fuel composition. My conclusion: F1 fuel guys are mad chemists, even in comparison to top fuel drag racers, but at least the drag guys admit to their addictions and weaknesses. > Regards, Greg >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Adrian Teo e-mail: adrian.teo@xxx.edu >System Administator >Instruction Support, Arizona State University >Ph: 602.965.9411 http://hybrid.asu.edu >Fx: 602.965.2724 Pg:602.204.1831 e-page: adrian@xxx.edu >------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 12:07:55 -0600 Subject: Re: air-assisted injectors, sort of >Actually, for all intents and purposes the mixtures at the extreme A/F >ratios aren't mixtures at all. The direct injection allows stratified >charging, actually close to stoich at the spark plug - pure air in the rest >of the cylinder. The low load conditions where DI is most advantageous >actually inject after BDC on compression stroke (4- and 2-stroke) to avoid >mixing. The heat rejection with highly lean mixtures at low load increases >efficiency to get fuel economy up. > >John Bucknell Amen. Plus, the wider throttle opening relative to load serves to decrease pumping work, and thus boost BSFC. Regards, Greg > > > ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 12:10:48 -0600 Subject: Re: Retrofit TBI to MGB >Good point. I'm contemplating a similar situation - FI'ing a >single-port VW bus app. The dual-ports breathe better, but the >single-port heads don't crack ... > >Regards, Jack > >Stowe, Ted-SEA wrote: >> >> isn't an L-Jettronic a 4 cyl FI, (4 injectors) ? >> with an mgb head and the Siamesed intake ports, wouldn't that be an issue ? First reaction---OOOOPPS! Second reaction--might could be able to put two injectors in each port and make it work pretty durn well. Regards, Greg ------------------------------ From: Michael Kasimirsky Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:17:46 -0400 Subject: RE: Renault F1 V10 > >According to F1 regulations, the gasoline used in F1 cars is > pump quality > >petrol and to be legal for use, has to be sold at the pump. > Since no after-pump > >additives are allowed, this is usually 108 octane or better > UNLEADED gasoline. While this may be the regs, I don't think it's reality. For example, a top-line AMA or WSB-spec Superbike (750cc, 4-cylinder) uses about 40 degrees of ignition advance to get power out of the engine at 14,000 rpm or so. Now optimum power comes with 10 degrees or so of ignition timing, but you can't do this with "normal" gasoline. Now the F1 guys have developed fuel, called "gasoline," that allows them to run 10-12 degrees of advance at 17,000 rpm and make piles of power. My understanding is that it's a concoction of Benzene, Tolulene, etc. and other nasty stuff that isn't usually a large part of pump gas. It may be lead-free, but it's not pump gas. ------------------------------ From: goflo@xxx.net Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 12:01:02 -0700 Subject: Re: Retrofit TBI to MGB One low #/hr and 1 high #/hr injector per port would be interesting - Custom ECU required, of course - Injection timing in a siamesed port is something to think about... Regards, Jack Greg Hermann wrote: > First reaction---OOOOPPS! > Second reaction--might could be able to put two injectors in each port and > make it work pretty durn well. Jack Wrote: > >Good point. I'm contemplating a similar situation - FI'ing a > >single-port VW bus app. The dual-ports breathe better, but the > >single-port heads don't crack ... > > > >Regards, Jack Stowe, Ted-SEA wrote: > >> > >> isn't an L-Jettronic a 4 cyl FI, (4 injectors) ? > >> with an mgb head and the Siamesed intake ports, wouldn't that be an issue ? > ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:14:03 -0600 Subject: Re: air-assisted injectors, sort of >Presumably this means that these injectors have a minimum usable >"on" time a good bit lower than the usual 1-2 msec or so? (Or does >the engine have a fairly low ratio of power at WOT to power at idle?) More like the injector has a rather longer time to fill the pre-chamber with a metered amount of fuel, then the compressed air takes the (pre-metered amount of) fuel past the air valve quite quickly. The actual amount of air used for this is not that critical, so higher flow rates and shorter duty cycles are ok for the air valves. > >There are still several relationships and effects that I'm curious >about: > >Does a decreased droplet size lower the "effective" octane of a fuel No. >(by increasing flame speed, no effect Or is it all vapor by TDC anyway, regardless of droplet >size? With progressively larger droplets, not all are necessarily vaporized or burned. Leading to HC emissions and less fuel economy. It is a proven fact that larger fuel droplets can survive the combustion process intact. > >To what extent is the fuel/air really homogeneous by TDC? On one hand >you have "stratified charge" engines, and OTOH your residual volume >is fairly small in an average-CR engine. Combustion chamber design and charge stratification is a whole nother (closely related) topic. > >Ignoring the issue of detonation, how ignitable are lean mixtures? Or >rather, how lean can you make the mixture and still be able to ignite >it? 17 or 18 to 1 is the limit of flammability for a homogeneous mixture, no matter how hot the spark. I just wonder if any of those efficiencies can be brought to a TPI setup. I wasn't thinking of bringing the lean mixture efficiencies to a TPI setup--you need the stratified charge effect for that. All I would hope for is the improved fuel economy and power due to better fuel atomization and reduction of compression work by evaporating a higher percentage of the fuel during the compression stroke. I think that both gains would be significant--and, although this is unexplored territory, no-one has come forward with any wagers against it yet. > >My experience there left me with a few good rules of thumb; I'm sure >some of them apply here but doubt that they all do: > As to your thoughts on detonation: My SUBJECTIVE feelings on it are that there is a critical P-T-mixture ratio for any given fuel above which detonation will occur, but that there is also a (material and conditions specific) time delay involved. Once you get the mixture above the critical point, the countdown starts, then after a certain time , it detonates. This feel is based on a lot of engine tuning. Also a bit of (field) experience working with explosives (is the FBI still in the wings wondering about our 747's??). My experience with engines seems to indicate that if you can get the burn over with quickly (as a result of short flame travel, mixture motion, and mixture turbulence, as opposed to fast flame travel) the chances of getting detonation are VASTLY reduced, the need for ignition advance is also reduced, and BSFC is improved. I have actually worked with an 11.5 : 1 C.R. engine whose chambers were conducive to the above mentioned things happening, and I observed the following: It would run on 101 octane (unleaded) with 45 degrees of total advance with no detonation whatsoever, but it made its best power with only 32 degrees of total advance. Otherwise the same, but with different chamber shapes, the same engine did not make as much power, and could knock its brains out on 104 octane. Power was still increasing with increasing advance with more than 40 degrees, but detonation prevented going any further whilst looking for more power. Does your experience working with explosives back up any of what I have (kind of lamely) tried to say here? Regards, Greg ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V3 #406 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".