DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 2 October 1998 Volume 03 : Number 453 In this issue: got diacom trace Re: got diacom trace VSS stuff Re: VSS importance We have ignition, and flashing bulbs at CSH, HQ Re: V8 S-10 and '747 Re: turbo design Re: 6502 chip RE: New List Participant - very new RE: New List Participant - very new RE: New List Participant - very new RE: Motorcycle EFI project Re: 6502 chip Flow Bench Software EFI - trick progect Re: DIY_EFI Digest V3 #451 Re: 6502 chip, HC11 disasm Re: VB020 ignition drivers See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew F. Gunnesch" Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 20:07:36 -0400 Subject: got diacom trace OK, Got a diacom trace from when my car is doing that hiccup thing. It *LOOKS* like I'm goosing the throttle, but I don't recall doing it during the run. Actually I kept putting it in capture mode until I grabbed a session where it did the buck/cut out thing. Anyways... I have converted it to a comma-delimited file. Anybody willing to take a look at it for me? Privately email me and I'll forward it to you. I won't have another run to test it for a day or two as I just sprung a pinhole leak in my fuel line :( ------------------------------ From: "David A. Cooley" Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 20:48:32 -0400 Subject: Re: got diacom trace At 08:07 PM 10/1/98 -0400, you wrote: >OK, Got a diacom trace from when my car is doing that hiccup thing. >It *LOOKS* like I'm goosing the throttle, but I don't recall doing >it during the run. Actually I kept putting it in capture mode until >I grabbed a session where it did the buck/cut out thing. > Sounds like a ground problem... If the TPS voltage suddenly went to max, the ground could have opened up and allowed it to float to 5 volts... or the TPS could have a bad spot in it. Did any other sensors output suddenly jump? if so, it may be an underhood ground, or a broken ground wire in the harness. >Anyways... I have converted it to a comma-delimited file. Anybody >willing to take a look at it for me? I will... n5xmt@xxx.net =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 We are Borg... Prepare to be assimilated! =========================================================== ------------------------------ From: AL8001@xxx.com Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 21:02:07 EDT Subject: VSS stuff I haven't tried any of this, though it should work. As far as I can tell American cars use a 1000 rev per mile speedo ratio. I know for sure many cable driven speedo GM cars use a speedo mounted VSS generator. This gen consists of a LED and a photo reciever ( diode or a transistor ) mounted in a small plastic holder ( ~1/2 X 1/4" X 3/8") , 12 inches of wire, and a buffer ( Yellow plastic ~ 1" X 1/2" X 3" ) From what I remember it has three connections: 12 VDC in , Ground and Signal Out. The LED / Photo in bolted ( with one small screw ) to the rear of the speedo and looks at the u shaped magnet holder( shiny metal ) that is driven by the speedo cable. So. . . . for each rev of the cable, the LED reflects back twice for every rev. 1000 Revs Per Mile = 2000 Pulses Per Mile Need 4000 per mile? just add two more shiny ears to the magnet holder. Instant 4000 PPM ! :+) Don't have a GM car? With a little work you could add the LED/ buffer to most any car. Just cut a slot and drill a hole. Don't have 1000 rev per mile? Most likely the ECM dosn't care if you have 800 PPM to 1200 PPM. Harold ------------------------------ From: "Jeffery Flanary" Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 21:19:00 -0400 Subject: Re: VSS importance Thanks David, i will probably get a 305 chip in the near future. Thanks Again. Jeff - ---------- > From: David A. Cooley > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: VSS importance > Date: Wednesday, September 30, 1998 11:17 PM > > Jeff, > Pathfinder is made by OTC... It's the new software they run inthe OTC 4000E > scantool. > Diacom is a software package for a PC with a cable from the parallel port > to the ALDL connector of the car... > The OTC 4000E is about $3000, diacom is about $300.00 > > The hunting idle could be from the 350 chip... It's expecting a certain > amount of air moving through the engine at idle, but it's not seeing it... > Makes it harder to adjust the IAC as it's not optimally tuned for the > smaller displacement. The 305 chip should help. > > > > At 09:28 PM 9/30/98 -0400, you wrote: > >Thanks for the info, a friend of mine has a scan tool called a "Pathfinder" > >is that what you mean by a diacom? If so i'll try that, i think you can > >put it in limp in mode with that tool. By the way, when it is in open loop > >mode, the engine will idle up and down very slightly, could the 350 chip be > >the cause? I am considering buying a 305 chip. Thanks alot, this is a > >good list and i am glad to see that there isn't any of the flaming you see > >on some of the other lists. Jeff > > > >---------- > >> From: peter paul fenske > >> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > >> Subject: Re: VSS importance > >> Date: Tuesday, September 29, 1998 11:40 PM > >> > >> CHOMP > >> > >> Hi Jeff > >> > >> I might put the truck into backup mode using diacom to see > >> if it will run. It prob won't but if it runs normally well all > >> is okay. > >> > >> I would get the calpak from a wrecking yard or a dealer if > >> I was worried about backup working. > >> > >> take care:peter > >> > >> Ps cal for 350 is a wee bit richer at idle when it drops outa > >> closed loop. smog might be harder. > >> > >> > >> idn't change the calpak. The computer was in an 88 Astro Van with a 4.3. > > > >> >I have heard that it only uses the calpak in limp in mode. Is this > >true? > >> >Sorry to be so elementary on such a high tech list, but i am just > >getting > >> >started. > >> > > >> > Thanks, Jeff > >> > >> > >> CHOMPPEE> > > > =========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net > Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 > We are Borg... Prepare to be assimilated! > =========================================================== ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Plecan" Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 21:25:28 -0400 Subject: We have ignition, and flashing bulbs at CSH, HQ Well for what ever reson I was having with the 808, it now links. So the bench is alive and well. Even talks with the 730/747/808. Ordered the ganged pots yesterday. FWIW sharing any power grounds from one ecm to the other doesn't work (for sensors). Also, there is something "funny" about how the MAP works, that has to be worked out, but things are suddenly looking up. Thanks to Peter Terry Ludis Mark Wayne Justin Mat Mike Lew Shannen Steve Paul, and probably a few others I can't think of. Might not sound like much to the EE's but getting this bundle of snakes right has been a major pain. Still gotta finalize some of the generators, and solder them up, and thats still a few days work, but the basics are working. Cheers Bruce Grumpy almost even smiled ------------------------------ From: "Jeffery Flanary" Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 21:29:58 -0400 Subject: Re: V8 S-10 and '747 Steve, Sorry you didn't get my reply, i sent it, i don't know what happened. Liket the other guy said, i just unplugged the 6965 computer and plugged the 747 in. That is all their is to it. The only difference i saw was the 747 doesn't use the MAT sensor. You don't even have to remove the wire for the MAT sensor, because that pin on the computer isn't even used so it doesn't see it at all. If you want to talk more S10 V8's, email me at jefff@xxx.com - ---------- > From: Steve Ravet > To: diy_efi > Subject: V8 S-10 and '747 > Date: Thursday, October 01, 1998 1:47 PM > > A couple days ago someone posted about their V8 S-10, that they switched > from 16316965 to '747. I also have a V8 S-10 w/6965. I've considered > switching to '747, but need a good reason to take my daily driver out of > service for the time it would take. I'm curious about why you made the > conversion, how difficult it was, and what effect there was, like on > mileage or performance. My engine is a stock 350 from a '91 Caprice. > > --steve > > > -- > Steve Ravet > steve.ravet@xxx.com > Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. > www.arm.com ------------------------------ From: AJLegere@xxx.com Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 21:23:50 EDT Subject: Re: turbo design Try "Turbocharging" by the master Hugh McInnes AJL ------------------------------ From: Roger Heflin Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 20:35:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: 6502 chip I disassembled a TTL computer that was sometime around 1974 built. It had 4 - 74181 (4 bit very simple slice proceeor) at its center and a massive pile of 74 and 74H series logic around it. The cooling fan for it used almost as much power as some of the desktop systems we have today (55W), the power for the entire computer (very simple computer) was I believe about 1500W, it generated alot of heat, and it was big, bulky, and probably a very simple computer that was not really useable to run a car or really anything else very complicated. I think the whole computer unit probably weighted 200 lbs as was probably on the same calibar as a 6502 or 68HC11 speed wise. I seem to remeber that it had 16k (an entire board the size of todays motherboards, completely stuffed with memory chips, and addressing logic). It was not really something that would be useable for EFI, especially since the chips that made up the cpu board proabably cost $1+ each, and there were several hundred, maybe into the low thousands that made up what would probably have been an equivalent to the <1Mhz processors that easily fit on a single chip now. Roger On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Mike Dillon wrote: > > I am not sure but I think the only "chips" commonly around in the > late 60's were DTL, I think TTL was early 70's and therefore would > not have been avalible for the Apollo program. "Processors" were > purpose built at that time (and not all digital). They only included > those functions in each computer, that were need for that computer > to complete its mission nothing more. > Digital Logic was very expencive and used lots of power so any computer(s) on > the apollo spacecraft, (Even the shuttle, but they may have upgraded it) > would have been special built for the specifc job it was to do, and even > by the standards of the 6502 would have been slow, used lots of power, > had very little program-data space and not very adaptable to any other > use. The Military and NASA was the driving force in the early years of > the semiconductor industry, as they wanted to reduce the power used > and weight of the rocket guidence systems, they were building crude > guidence (by todays standards) computers with lots of transistors and > passiive compents. Russia just built bigger rockets. > Alot was done using analog computers they used fewer transistors for > a given task (Look at the early EFI "computers") but were not very > adaptable to other functions. > > Mike D. > > ------------------------------ From: Jemison Richard Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 21:03:23 -0500 Subject: RE: New List Participant - very new Don, Thanks a lot. I'm beginning to get a lot of information and your suggestion certainly helps. Rick Indy > -----Original Message----- > From: Don.F.Broadus@xxx.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 01, 1998 6:47 PM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: RE: New List Participant - very new > > The new snowmobiles have FI, Polaris is one brand, you might want to take > a > look at. The injectors and Throttle Body > might save you some time. The ECM looks totally sealed so not much can > be > done with that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jemison Richard [SMTP:JemisonR@xxx.com] > Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 1998 12:31 PM > To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu' > Subject: RE: New List Participant - very new > > Gene, > > Thanks for your response. So you're saying the new IAC I put in is > not > working correctly? Just want to make sure I'm understanding my > problem. I > followed the instructions as closely as possible. Checked the > plunger > extension <1.125" prior to installatation. > > On the bike (or any engine) - as the only DPFI I have any > familiarity with > right now is a Saturn, and as I've noticed that the plenum does a > couple of > nice things 1) houses the PPM, TPI and IAC and provide both ports > and > mounting points for the actual injectors and 2) these ports are VERY > close > to the intake port spacing on the engine I'm initially trying to > adapt - I > was thinking this piece would be a good place to start and would > solve a > good many of the mechanical problems. I also believe in UFOs so I'm > curious > what your thoughts on this would be. BTW, very soon I'll be able to > scan a > pix of this setup so you can see it better (you're probably not > familiar - > or interested terribly) in Saturn DPFI, ha! > > The other question you asked (air cooled is yes on my initial > project). > Inline 4 - which is what a good many of the performance bikes are > today, > hence important. If I could get a system to work on this type of > engine - I > could get one to work on a good many bikes (with a large user base > that > might be interested). > > Rick > Indy > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: mrvette [SMTP:mrvette@xxx.net] > > Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 1998 9:55 AM > > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > > Subject: Re: New List Participant - very new > > > > on the Saturn,,...It most assuredly is the IAC.....on doing DPFI > for any > > engine...the hard part is the mechanicals...getting the injectors > mounted > > correctly, and a t-valve (air valve) in place.....if the bike is > air > > cooled > > engine, you mite have a problem with an engine temp sensor, also > with > > air > > cleaners-filters, all of this not so easy for the home mechanic > on a > > bike as > > ALOT of metal fabrication is necessary.....GENE > > > > Jemison Richard wrote: > > > > > > Hello and let me apologize in advance for the level of my > expertise with > > > regard to electronic fuel injection. I hope to learn much. > I've been > > very > > > impressed with what I've heard in the last few days. I have two > > questions. > > > > > > 1) I have a '92 Saturn coupe with multiport injection. It > won't idle > > very > > > well at all and dies if the air conditioning is turn on (idles > worse in > > gear > > > than in neutral also). It also has a miss (sudden jerking - > happens a > > low > > > to moderate speeds in gentle acceleration mode (20-40mph). > Pressing the > > > accelerator enough to go into passing gear eliminates all > problems and > > it > > > runs fine - runs very well on top end also (for a Saturn). I've > changed > > the > > > IAC (my codes were pointing to that). Oh that Idle Air Control > Valve (I > > > don't know what acronyms are standard yet!) This car has a dual > > overhead > > > cam engine 1.9L. > > > > > > 2) The real reason I'm here is that I'm a motorcycle enthusiast > and > > want to > > > design (or adapt if someone much smarter than me has already > done this! > > > This will NOT hurt my feelings any) an electronic fuel injection > system > > that > > > would be generic enough in nature to fit many similar engine > sized > > Japanese > > > bikes that were carbureted. > > > > > > At this point I don't even know where to begin. Of course, > from my > > > perspective, existing units are attractive but reprogramming the > control > > > computers is a black box for me. One thing I've toyed with is > single > > board > > > computers (SBCs). I worked a bit with process control in the > > pharmaceutical > > > industry about 8 years ago and got some experience programming > these > > guys. > > > They're cheap and readily available and of late have a lot of > > inexpensive > > > digital and analog sensing options. Big question is, has anyone > gone > > down > > > this path and if so, is it worth looking at? > > > > > > I again apologize for what are probably pretty simple (and > possibly > > > silly) questions. I'm just looking for some good initial > direction to > > > pursue. Any help will be gratefully received! > > > > > > Rick > > > Indy > > > > -- > > > > > > ____________ > > Fun under the sun in //~~~~~~~~~~~~\\ > > Jacksonville, Fl. :-))) //______________\\ > > /~~~---~ | | ~---~~~\ > > /| /______\____/______\ |\ > > (( | / | | \ | )) > > Mako 'Vettes | \============================/ | > > Shift better with |\ \\[ ] |mrvette| [ ]// /| > > Automatics | \/+========================+\/ | > > |~==============================~| > > |_____| |_____| > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Jemison Richard Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 21:13:00 -0500 Subject: RE: New List Participant - very new Scott, Interesting. I think I'll try some injector cleaner. I'm running out of ideas here. Tonight I checked the codes from my ecm and NO CODES. The computer thinks the sucker is running fine! It has started running up (jumps to 2000 2500 rpm when I stop and put the car in neutral or if I stop and put it in park). This is new. Don't know what's changed! I got a Haynes book on Saturn's which has cleared everything up. The fuel injection chapter troubleshooting guide lists (faulty injector, faulty egr, clogged air filter or vacuum leaks) for over half of all possible problems! It is the proper format for my fireplace..... Rick Indy > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Schaaf [SMTP:SSchaaf@xxx.com] > Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 1998 7:42 PM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: New List Participant - very new > > I am having the same problem,,, 'bout ready to change the TPS. I dumped > a BUNCH of injector cleaner in the tank,, and the miss go MUCH better.. I > guess I must have some plugged infectors!! The gas wars here in Ohio is > causing some REALLY SHI**Y gas!! > > Scott... > > ---------- > > From: Jemison Richard > > To: 'DIY_EFI - Fuel Injection Design List' > > > Subject: New List Participant - very new > > Date: Wednesday, September 30, 1998 10:33 AM > > > > Hello and let me apologize in advance for the level of my expertise with > > regard to electronic fuel injection. I hope to learn much. I've been > very > > impressed with what I've heard in the last few days. I have two > questions. > > > > 1) I have a '92 Saturn coupe with multiport injection. It won't idle > very > > well at all and dies if the air conditioning is turn on (idles worse in > gear > > than in neutral also). It also has a miss (sudden jerking - happens a > low > > to moderate speeds in gentle acceleration mode (20-40mph). Pressing the > > accelerator enough to go into passing gear eliminates all problems and > it > > runs fine - runs very well on top end also (for a Saturn). I've changed > the > > IAC (my codes were pointing to that). Oh that Idle Air Control Valve (I > > don't know what acronyms are standard yet!) This car has a dual > overhead > > cam engine 1.9L. > > > > 2) The real reason I'm here is that I'm a motorcycle enthusiast and > want > to > > design (or adapt if someone much smarter than me has already done this! > > This will NOT hurt my feelings any) an electronic fuel injection system > that > > would be generic enough in nature to fit many similar engine sized > Japanese > > bikes that were carbureted. > > > > At this point I don't even know where to begin. Of course, from my > > perspective, existing units are attractive but reprogramming the control > > computers is a black box for me. One thing I've toyed with is single > board > > computers (SBCs). I worked a bit with process control in the > pharmaceutical > > industry about 8 years ago and got some experience programming these > guys. > > They're cheap and readily available and of late have a lot of > inexpensive > > digital and analog sensing options. Big question is, has anyone gone > down > > this path and if so, is it worth looking at? > > > > I again apologize for what are probably pretty simple (and possibly > > silly) questions. I'm just looking for some good initial direction to > > pursue. Any help will be gratefully received! > > > > Rick > > Indy ------------------------------ From: "David A. Cooley" Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 22:42:30 -0400 Subject: RE: New List Participant - very new At 09:13 PM 10/1/98 -0500, you wrote: >Scott, > >Interesting. I think I'll try some injector cleaner. I'm running out of >ideas here. Tonight I checked the codes from my ecm and NO CODES. The >computer thinks the sucker is running fine! > >It has started running up (jumps to 2000 2500 rpm when I stop and put the >car in neutral or if I stop and put it in park). This is new. Don't know >what's changed! I got a Haynes book on Saturn's which has cleared >everything up. The fuel injection chapter troubleshooting guide lists >(faulty injector, faulty egr, clogged air filter or vacuum leaks) for over >half of all possible problems! It is the proper format for my >fireplace..... > Rick, If there are no stored trouble codes, then the ECM is losing it's memory when the car is off... Sounds like a bad ground, or maybe the direct battery wire has a bad section. I've seen them corrode inside the insulation from the battery acid and come apart... you don't know it until you pull on it and it pulls apart. Should be an orange wire going straight to the battery. Later, Dave =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 We are Borg... Prepare to be assimilated! =========================================================== ------------------------------ From: Jemison Richard Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 21:49:49 -0500 Subject: RE: Motorcycle EFI project Jake, Man, sure wish you were closer. I'd like to follow this close! Sounds like a real opportunity to delve in first hand. I'm absolutely green. I don't have any EFI units to "play" with right now. I am trying to fully understand the diy-efi project unit on the web page (very nice) and very well documented. I do have an advantage as I've actually programmed EPROMs before EEPROMS are the same thing only electronically erasable rather than UV. Unfortunately, I don't have the programmer now (different computer system). But that does give me the opportunity to see what others are using and then move in that direction. Seems so far like 68000 and 6502 processors are in front. Unfortunately, thats about all I have with regard to efi right now. Everything else is on a long, long learning curve. I'll be eagerly following your progress. Best of luck! rick Indy > -----Original Message----- > From: Jake Sternberg [SMTP:chickens@xxx.edu] > Sent: Thursday, October 01, 1998 5:00 AM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Motorcycle EFI project > > > Welcome to the list!! Sorry about the discouraging remarks people posted, > despite the fact you stated any _help_ would be appreciated. Come on, > people, if you dont know how to do something, dont say it can't be done! > > anyway.. I myself am working on a project almost exactly like yours, mine > being a 1980 suzuki GS1100 four with sixteen valves, basically the same > thing as your XS1100 (also air cooled). I'm so sick of my carburetors > that i've contemplated catapaulting them into mexico, but my bike is my > main transportation so i've decided to wait until i install fuel > injection. > > In the mail right now (should arrive tomorrow) is a complete EFI setup > from a '84 volvo 240 with bosch LH-jetronic. The system uses a hot-wire > MAF sensor for its primary metering decisions. It uses approximately > 17lb/hour fuel injectors which allow the 2.1L volvo engine to produce up > to 120 horsepower in production form. they're just right for our needs. > The fuel rail has a manifold vacuum referenced pressure regulator at the > end, and i intend to cut it where i need to, and bridge the pieces back > together in the appropriate spacing for my motorcycle using 1/2" ID fuel > hose and hose clamps. I intend to make an intake manifold out of gutted > carburetors while I fabricate a more elegant piece out of aluminum. I > happen to have access to a nice machine shop with TIG (electrical arc) > welders which can weld aluminum, and i'll be making some parts with > lathes.. but the same effect could of course be achieved with cut metal > tubing and short pieces of radiator hose and hose clamps if you lack those > resources. speaking of resources, one of the main reasons i'm going with > the LH-jet setup i speak of is because a buddy of mine happened to have it > lying around and i'd rather experiment with "what's lying around" than go > out and explicitly purchase a setup without knowing if it'll work well. > > I fully expect this FI setup to operate my motorcycle satisfactorily from > the get-go, despite the fact that its breathing characteristics are very > different from a tractor-engine-like 8-valve 2.1L volvo engine (which > rule, dont get me wrong). One of my ultimate goals for this system > include equal or superior drivability and performance to a perfectly tuned > carb setup. Since i've never cracked open an LH-jet ECU, i've already > come up with a few ways to tweak the system without modifying a thing, > in case I can't find solutions within its built-in flexibility. > > for enrichment on throttle-whacking, i intend to explore various places > for the connection to the fuelpressureregulator's vacuum reference. By > letting it see an increase in pressure faster than it normally would, > pressure in the fuel rail would jump during throttle openings and provide > an accelerator-pump effect superimposed on the computers' intentions. > I have other ideas like this, but ideas are all they are until i try them. > > for oxygen sensors, i'll be mounting one at each exhaust port, with > bi-color LEDs on my instrument cluster to indicate rich/lean status for > each. the ECU will get its info from whichever of the four i tell it to. > > Of course, when i get the gear on my bench I intend to open it all up and > catalog all the chips in everything, and read the prom(s) (assuming there > are any!) to see what i can figure out. Volvo EFI setups like this are > cheap enough to acquire to make fully reverse-engineering them worthwhile. > According to my friend sending it, there are two "boxes" in the system, > one is the ECU proper and the other is under the hood with a good number > of wires and a vacuum transducer mounted right on it; i suspect this box > has a lot to do with the ignition and timing since LH-jetronic does not > normally involve itself with that task. That's great, because the > ignition system on my bike is fine for the moment and it will be that much > easier to tweak the new EFI setup without having to worry about spark. > > So, rest assured, myself and others on this list are embroiled in the same > exact endeavor as yourself, many of us on 1100 fours, of course :) > I am quite determined to be running on EFI as soon as possible, and i'll > share all of my findings and formulae with the list, and you are more than > welcome to simply trace my steps on your own bike if you want to just do > it first and then learn. The only factory bike EFI out there people talk > about is the kawasaki 1100 which, as i understand, were so strange and > crappy that many of them were replaced with carbs!!! A new option is > definitely needed. > > -Jake > > > From: Jemison Richard > > Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 09:33:44 -0500 > > Subject: New List Participant - very new > > > > 2) The real reason I'm here is that I'm a motorcycle enthusiast and > want to > > design (or adapt if someone much smarter than me has already done this! > > This will NOT hurt my feelings any) an electronic fuel injection system > that > > would be generic enough in nature to fit many similar engine sized > Japanese > > bikes that were carbureted. > > > > At this point I don't even know where to begin. Of course, from my > > perspective, existing units are attractive but reprogramming the control > > computers is a black box for me. One thing I've toyed with is single > board > > computers (SBCs). I worked a bit with process control in the > pharmaceutical > > industry about 8 years ago and got some experience programming these > guys. > > They're cheap and readily available and of late have a lot of > inexpensive > > digital and analog sensing options. Big question is, has anyone gone > down > > this path and if so, is it worth looking at? > > > > I again apologize for what are probably pretty simple (and possibly > > silly) questions. I'm just looking for some good initial direction to > > pursue. Any help will be gratefully received! > > > > Rick > > Indy > > ------------------------------ From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 21:13:17 -0600 Subject: Re: 6502 chip >It was not really something that would be useable for EFI, especially since >the chips that made up the cpu board proabably cost $1+ each, and there >were several hundred, maybe into the low thousands that made up what would >probably have been an equivalent to the <1Mhz processors that easily fit >on a single chip now. > > Roger > >On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Mike Dillon wrote: > >> >> I am not sure but I think the only "chips" commonly around in the >> late 60's were DTL, I think TTL was early 70's and therefore would >> not have been avalible for the Apollo program. I dunno much if anything about the processors involved, but can tell you that shuttle technology, (dating back about 13 years, may well have changed since) in order to get the level of reliability deemed suitable, was as follows: For any given set of control functions a total of five identical controllers (sensors and all, I believe) were used (all self-diagnostic, of course). Three were functional, two were back-ups. The three functional ones voted on any given control function. If the three were not unanimous on a control action, (despite a lack of any self-diagnostic admission of a problem) the odd system got thrown out, and replaced with one of the two back-ups, then unanimity was sought again, etc. This info was extracted (gently) from the brains of a couple of Otis Elevator guys with whom I had the pleasure of serving on a code-writing committee for part of a ski-lift and tramway code (ANSI B-77). Their general reaction to what the early fifties vintage tramway guys thought was "Fail-Safe" was laughter (actually guffaws), followed up with a description of how NASA was currently doing things for those of us who wanted to listen. Perhaps there are lessons in this kind of approach for grasshoppers, Princes of Darkness, and other such critters. Regards, Greg ------------------------------ From: "Robert J. Korn" Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 01:37:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Flow Bench Software I was looking through some old files and I came across fit.zip fitfoto.zip these were the files for the flow bench in performance engineering magazine. I have the first two issues of that mag but were any others ever printed ? What really happened to Jon DeAromond and dixie ?? I know its been 5 years but all references to him seem to be gone except for his BBQ place....... Almost forgot.. ftp://ftp.korn.net/pub/perf/fit.zip ftp://ftp.korn.net/pub/perf/fitphoto.zip you can grab them and add them to the DIY-EFI site. Somebody Please, send me the Real JGD story...... ------------------------------ From: "Sergey Stopov" Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 23:26:04 PDT Subject: EFI - trick progect Hi Guys! Your advise is needed! Now my friend wont make turbo on him BMW540 with boost 2 bar. And hi do not wont change ECU parameters. I offer to him some upgrade to EFI. In parallel to MAF install tree electric-drive throttles T1, T2, T3 and 3 injectors J1,J2,J3 (supplied by own OEM fuel pump and own OEM press. regulator) that fires on OEM throttle every crank rotation with pulse width that OEM ECU determine for standard injectors. F - fuel performance of set (8 unit) of OEM injectors. S - squares of MAF air flow. And (1.26) ^ 3 = 2 P - manifold press. F( i ) - fuel performance of J( i ) Squares of these throttles will be: S(T1) = 1.26S - S = 0.26*S S(T2) = (1.26*1.26)S - S - S(T1) = 0.33*S S(T3) = 2*S - S - S(T1) - S(T2) = 0.41*S F(J1) = 0.26*F F(J2) = 0.33*F F(J3) = 0.41*F J(i) may be one injector or group of injectors for getting calculated fuel requirement. T1 open when P = 1.15 bar off when P=1.11 bar T2 P = 1.45 P=1.39 T3 P = 1.82 P=1.75 J(i) fires when T(i) is open. Thus on idle, cruse or when P < 1.15 bar EFI works as standard one. But when boost grow fuel supplement grow up too but ECU not «think» that MAF signal too high for these throttle position and rpm. Example: on boost P=2 bar and WOT, air flow throw MAF will be: 2*(standart flow), and 0.5 will flowing throw MAF and 0.5 flowing throw T1,T2,T3 because S(MAF) = S(T1)+S(T2)+S(T3); And fuel quantity will be: 2*(standard fuel flow) because all J(i) will be working. And ECU will obtaining signals as in OEM system without turbo. Number of addition throttles may be high (4,5,....), but in case 3 add. throttles maximum mistake of MAF signal will < 12....15 %. What you think about it. Did you hear about system look likes it. Your opinion very important for me and my friend! Sergey Stopov. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: wrm@xxx.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 08:18:32 +0200 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V3 #451 Hi all >Funny, way I heard it was that the chips were developed for the space program >so what was Armstrong's 'puter processor? earliest one I ever heard of was >6500 series....GENE > >> Armstrong, would have loved to have that much processing power, >> when his on board altitude computer was unable to handle the >> landing and he had to take over manualy. The 6502 was mid late >> 70's processor used in the first Apple and the Apple 2 and 3. >> The moon landing was in 69 pre dating even the Intel 4004 that The user manual for the Apollo Guidance Computer was posted to usenet on 19 Dec 1995. Since I never throw anything away, I've put the 5 news articles on ftp://ccii.dockside.co.za/pub/apollo. Have fun. W ------------------------------ From: wrm@xxx.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 08:48:50 +0200 Subject: Re: 6502 chip, HC11 disasm Mike Morrin sez: >http://wwwis.cs.utwente.nl:8080/~faase/Ha/Apollo.html This is a better link than the one I posted just now. But I'll keep the other one up for a while. Jason Weir sez: >try this, I am not sure what it does but it does something >disasm11 -if akal.bin -sa 0x617 -ea 0xfff > >where akal.bin is the binary file you want to disassemble >- -sa is the start address 0x617 on the 2732 eprom >- -ea is the end address 0xFFF on the 2732 eprom Close. Lessee, I have a file, daewoo.rom, which is 32K, and which is mapped into the processor space from $8000 (0x8000) to $FFFF. Then disasm11 -if daewoo.rom -fo 8000 -sa 8000 | more gives 68HC11 Disassembler V0.1beta By W. de Waal Sept 1998 (Based on 1990/91 6809 disasm) reading opcode tables... initialising target memory Input file File offset in memory is $8000 Disasm starts from $8000 infilenme = >daewoo.rom< Reading daewoo.rom Vectors: Reset: $9015 ClkFail: $9010 Watchdog: $9000 8000: 02 idiv 8001: 7F 2B8D clr $2B8D 8004: 4E ????? 8005: 01 nop 8006: 06 tap 8007: 19 daa etc. This tells me that the interesting code starts at 9000. So disasm11 -if daewoo.rom -fo 8000 -sa 9000 | more 68HC11 Disassembler V0.1beta By W. de Waal Sept 1998 (Based on 1990/91 6809 disasm) reading opcode tables... initialising target memory Input file File offset in memory is $8000 Disasm starts from $9000 infilenme = >daewoo.rom< Reading daewoo.rom Vectors: Reset: $9015 ClkFail: $9010 Watchdog: $9000 9000: 14 19 02 bset $19 $02 9003: 96 1A ldaa $1A 9005: 81 AA cmpa #$AA 9007: 26 16 bne $901F 9009: 86 10 ldaa #$10 900B: B7 1035 staa $1035 900E: 20 0F bra $901F 9010: 14 19 01 bset $19 $01 9013: 20 0A bra $901F 9015: 15 19 03 bclr $19 $03 9018: B6 84E3 ldaa $84E3 901B: 85 04 bita #$04 901D: 26 EA bne $9009 901F: 4F clra >Now that I get it too output is there any way to output to a file or >caputre the output??? or is that what "not implemented" meant??? JTW Yup :-) Orin sez: >A simple redirection ( > filename ) worked for me on NT 4.0. I found that that works, so I didn't bother implementing the -of. The user interface sucks. I wrote it in 1990 before I knew about Unix. Soon to change. Jason again: >Where is a good place to start to learn what the output means.... I know >what a pain and I am in over my head but what the heck.... thanks JTW I used the pdf file from motorola. But there are a number of "cut&paste" errors - beware. I *think* my interpretation is right, and the Motorola documentation is wrong :-) >Using the HC11 disassembler I disassembled the 1227747 eprom code and >the internal rom code... I placed the results up on my web site for all >to see Hey great :-) Wouter ------------------------------ From: "Tony Michael" Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 00:47:36 PDT Subject: Re: VB020 ignition drivers Hello Julian, My address is Tony Michael The Finch Main Road Boreham Essex CM3 3JF Thanks for your help - if I can get this running in the next week I will be able to enter the Rallye de Sombreffe (in Belgium) on the 18th. Cheers, Tony ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V3 #453 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".